PDA

View Full Version : Phyrric Victory



bullypulpit
03-12-2009, 07:57 AM
This is old news, but it's been gnawing at me like a sore tooth for far too long.

<blockquote>"This is a victory for the separation of powers and congressional oversight," Conyers said in a statement. "It is also a vindication of the search for truth. I am determined to have it known whether U.S. attorneys in the Department of Justice were fired for political reasons, and if so, by whom."</blockquote>

Now had it been me, or any other member of the hoi polloi, we would have long since been frog marched by US marshals to some dank holding cell in the Capital until we agreed to testify before Congress as a subpoena would have required us to do. And then there is the issue of criminal penalties for contempt of Congress..."not less than one month nor more than twelve months in jail and a fine of not less than $100 nor more than $1,000". But no, Karl Rove and Harriet Miers freely disregarded multiple subpoenas, thereby showing their utter contempt for Congress. Representative Conyers claims of "victory" and "vindication" in this matter are as empty as Rove's and Miers' claims of "executive privilege".

According to everyone involved in the now infamous firings of US attorneys, from then Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez to Rove, Miers and others, the President was out of the loop on the matter. Since no conversations were held with Bush on this matter, no claim of executive privilege can be allowed to stand. But in a bit of political kabuki theater, Rove and Miers will be deposed under penalty of perjury before a closed session of the House Judiciary Committee. So much for "victory" and "vindication".

In the midst of this was the Obama White House pushing for an agreement such as this. It was their hope to avoid a fight over executive privilege which would limit their, and future administration's, options in the matter. Never mind, of course, that executive privilege is not mentioned anywhere in Article 2, nor anywhere else, in the Constitution. It is worth noting that the same arguments used by the constitutional originalists on the right to deny women abortion rights can be used to deny Bush, or any other, administration claims of "executive privilege".

The Obama administrations failure to take a firm stand against this particular abuse of power on the part of his predecessor is disappointing. As a professor of constitutional law, President Obama should know better. The law must apply to all or it applies to none.

Monkeybone
03-12-2009, 08:47 AM
but didn't Clinton fire almost all of the U.S. attorneys when he came into office? or is it because Bush (or Rove & Miers) did it later?

Nukeman
03-12-2009, 09:50 AM
but didn't Clinton fire almost all of the U.S. attorneys when he came into office? or is it because Bush (or Rove & Miers) did it later?
now now monkey don't bring the great and ilustrious Clinton into this.

last time I checked the AG's work at the sole discretion of the executive office....

glockmail
03-12-2009, 09:53 AM
but didn't Clinton fire almost all of the U.S. attorneys when he came into office? or is it because Bush (or Rove & Miers) did it later?
Of course, but that won't stop the haters from trying to lambaste a president who's now retired.

crin63
03-12-2009, 10:05 AM
Clinton fired all of them if I remember correctly and that nasty Bush only fired a handful. If they were libs then they needed firing.

Mr. P
03-12-2009, 11:40 AM
Clinton fired all of them if I remember correctly and that nasty Bush only fired a handful. If they were libs then they needed firing.

That's what I remeber also.

5stringJeff
03-12-2009, 06:41 PM
This is old news, but it's been gnawing at me like a sore tooth for far too long.

<blockquote>"This is a victory for the separation of powers and congressional oversight," Conyers said in a statement. "It is also a vindication of the search for truth. I am determined to have it known whether U.S. attorneys in the Department of Justice were fired for political reasons, and if so, by whom."</blockquote>

Now had it been me, or any other member of the hoi polloi, we would have long since been frog marched by US marshals to some dank holding cell in the Capital until we agreed to testify before Congress as a subpoena would have required us to do. And then there is the issue of criminal penalties for contempt of Congress..."not less than one month nor more than twelve months in jail and a fine of not less than $100 nor more than $1,000". But no, Karl Rove and Harriet Miers freely disregarded multiple subpoenas, thereby showing their utter contempt for Congress. Representative Conyers claims of "victory" and "vindication" in this matter are as empty as Rove's and Miers' claims of "executive privilege".

According to everyone involved in the now infamous firings of US attorneys, from then Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez to Rove, Miers and others, the President was out of the loop on the matter. Since no conversations were held with Bush on this matter, no claim of executive privilege can be allowed to stand. But in a bit of political kabuki theater, Rove and Miers will be deposed under penalty of perjury before a closed session of the House Judiciary Committee. So much for "victory" and "vindication".

In the midst of this was the Obama White House pushing for an agreement such as this. It was their hope to avoid a fight over executive privilege which would limit their, and future administration's, options in the matter. Never mind, of course, that executive privilege is not mentioned anywhere in Article 2, nor anywhere else, in the Constitution. It is worth noting that the same arguments used by the constitutional originalists on the right to deny women abortion rights can be used to deny Bush, or any other, administration claims of "executive privilege".

The Obama administrations failure to take a firm stand against this particular abuse of power on the part of his predecessor is disappointing. As a professor of constitutional law, President Obama should know better. The law must apply to all or it applies to none.

It has nothing to do with "executive privilege" as the term is used in its legal sense. It has everything to do with the President being the Chief Executive. Those in the executive department, to include US Attorneys, serve at his pleasure. If the President wants someone fired, he's fired, no questions asked.

bullypulpit
03-12-2009, 08:03 PM
It has nothing to do with "executive privilege" as the term is used in its legal sense. It has everything to do with the President being the Chief Executive. Those in the executive department, to include US Attorneys, serve at his pleasure. If the President wants someone fired, he's fired, no questions asked.

By all accounts, if you read the thread opener, Bush was out of the loop regarding the firings of the US attorneys. Yet another irrelevant GOP apologia bites the dust.

DannyR
03-12-2009, 08:17 PM
but didn't Clinton fire almost all of the U.S. attorneys when he came into office? or is it because Bush (or Rove & Miers) did it later?Every president does. US attorneys are appointed when a president begins his term, confirmed by the Senate, and leave at the end of the term when their replacements are appointed by the next president (or reconfirmed by a 2nd term president).


Clinton fired all of them if I remember correctly and that nasty Bush only fired a handful. If they were libs then they needed firing.Not an honest interpretation. Every president fires them all at the beginning of their term. Bush did as well. Its a political appointment that lasts the duration of the presidency.

Bush went a step further and fired several of his just hired appointees because he didn't like the way they worked. This was unprecedented, but legal.

Kathianne
03-12-2009, 08:20 PM
Not an honest interpretation. Every president fires them all at the beginning of their term. Bush did as well. Its a political appointment that lasts the duration of the presidency.

Bush went a step further and fired several of his just hired appointees.

Why? Since you are focused.

DannyR
03-12-2009, 08:29 PM
Why? Since you are focused.I'm always focused. ;) But I edited my post while you posted yours.

As I stated, he didn't agree with how they were working. Or at least that was the excuse. I believe a few were fired because background checks produced seemingly non-conservative viewpoints on a couple of issues in their past. Nothing they directly did as an appointee.

And in case anyone is arguing it wasn't legal:

TITLE 28 > PART II > CHAPTER 35 > § 541 United States attorneys
(a) The President shall appoint, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, a United States attorney for each judicial district.
(b) Each United States attorney shall be appointed for a term of four years. On the expiration of his term, a United States attorney shall continue to perform the duties of his office until his successor is appointed and qualifies.
(c) Each United States attorney is subject to removal by the President.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/28/541(b).html

Kathianne
03-12-2009, 08:38 PM
I'm always focused. ;) But I edited my post while you posted yours.

As I stated, he didn't agree with how they were working. Or at least that was the excuse. I believe a few were fired because background checks produced seemingly non-conservative viewpoints on a couple of issues in their past. Nothing they directly did as an appointee.

A bit lame, but we'll try to work with. As 'who was working', regarding disagreement. Which were fired because of non-conservative viewpoints?

DannyR
03-12-2009, 08:59 PM
As 'who was working', regarding disagreement. Which were fired because of non-conservative viewpoints?Presumably all of them. The "official" explanation is the removal of underperforming attorneys, but based on what criteria? Performance evaluations were favorable and the method they were selected was non-standard. Ultimately we'll probably never know exactly why they were chosen, because several key players refused to testify.

The controversy arises because traditionally the President does not get involved in the minutiae of the US Attorney's office, the firings were unprecedented, and a large myriad of reasons for the firing were put forth by various parties.

The DOJ's complete investigation, as well as a lot of background info and history, is here. You can read the conclusions they came to in the final few pages before the Appendix sections:

http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/special/s0809a/final.pdf

Kathianne
03-12-2009, 09:13 PM
Presumably all of them. The "official" explanation is the removal of underperforming attorneys, but based on what criteria? Performance evaluations were favorable and the method they were selected was non-standard. Ultimately we'll probably never know exactly why they were chosen, because several key players refused to testify.

The controversy arises because traditionally the President does not get involved in the minutiae of the US Attorney's office, the firings were unprecedented, and a large myriad of reasons for the firing were put forth by various parties.

The DOJ's complete investigation, as well as a lot of background info and history, is here. You can read the conclusions they came to in the final few pages before the Appendix sections:

http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/special/s0809a/final.pdf

So, did 'presumably' work out for you?

DannyR
03-12-2009, 09:18 PM
So, did 'presumably' work out for you?Eh? I don't really care about the issue. Old news and wasn't illegally done, just irregular as hell and thus provides useful ammunition for those who believe Bush was on a power trip. I'd be willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, but he liked to clam up and claim executive privs. Puts a sinister glare on the situation. You know that feeling. You conservatives see it already on every action Obama takes. :laugh2:

He could have fired him for giving him a swirly during his high school days for all I care.

My main purpose in posting in this thread was to correct the obvious misconception that Bush somehow was doing just the same thing that previous presidents had done before. That is certainly NOT true.

Nukeman
06-18-2009, 04:54 PM
This is old news, but it's been gnawing at me like a sore tooth for far too long.

<blockquote>"This is a victory for the separation of powers and congressional oversight," Conyers said in a statement. "It is also a vindication of the search for truth. I am determined to have it known whether U.S. attorneys in the Department of Justice were fired for political reasons, and if so, by whom."</blockquote>

Now had it been me, or any other member of the hoi polloi, we would have long since been frog marched by US marshals to some dank holding cell in the Capital until we agreed to testify before Congress as a subpoena would have required us to do. And then there is the issue of criminal penalties for contempt of Congress..."not less than one month nor more than twelve months in jail and a fine of not less than $100 nor more than $1,000". But no, Karl Rove and Harriet Miers freely disregarded multiple subpoenas, thereby showing their utter contempt for Congress. Representative Conyers claims of "victory" and "vindication" in this matter are as empty as Rove's and Miers' claims of "executive privilege".

According to everyone involved in the now infamous firings of US attorneys, from then Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez to Rove, Miers and others, the President was out of the loop on the matter. Since no conversations were held with Bush on this matter, no claim of executive privilege can be allowed to stand. But in a bit of political kabuki theater, Rove and Miers will be deposed under penalty of perjury before a closed session of the House Judiciary Committee. So much for "victory" and "vindication".

In the midst of this was the Obama White House pushing for an agreement such as this. It was their hope to avoid a fight over executive privilege which would limit their, and future administration's, options in the matter. Never mind, of course, that executive privilege is not mentioned anywhere in Article 2, nor anywhere else, in the Constitution. It is worth noting that the same arguments used by the constitutional originalists on the right to deny women abortion rights can be used to deny Bush, or any other, administration claims of "executive privilege".

The Obama administrations failure to take a firm stand against this particular abuse of power on the part of his predecessor is disappointing. As a professor of constitutional law, President Obama should know better. The law must apply to all or it applies to none.

Hey Bully and all you "red blooded liberals", where is all your faux outrage for this type of politicle bullshit. You and your ilk were all over Bush for firing a few AG who didn't have the same politicle stand as him but all of you are willing to give Obama a freaking pass. YOU BUNCH OF F***ING HYPOCRITS!!!



http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/White-House-Firing-AmeriCorps-IG-an-act-of-political-courage-48538447.html


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-tc-nw-inspectors-0617-0618jun18,0,5718990.story

You guys are all pathetic I can not believe the double standard all of you use in your daily lives................


So I ask again WHERE IS ALL THE OUTRAGE????????????????:poke: