Identical twins, one gay, one ain't

[glockmail]

I've know one of them for a while, and met her identical twin sister only once. One had longer hair so that's the only way I could tell them apart. One is normal, married, one child. The other is gay, "domestic partner", and has a kid through artificial means.

Someone explain to me how this is possible, if homosexuality is a genetic trait.

[PostmodernProphet]

one of them is lying to herself?.....

[Noir]

Works exactly with my knowledge that it can be either choice or genetic. I hope you don't mind if I use this as a source to further justify my belief.

[Mr. P]

one of them is lying to herself?.....

Probably true..as for the "identical twins" part. I don't think that means "identical" DNA..etc.

[Noir]

Probably true..as for the "identical twins" part. I don't think that means "identical" DNA..etc.

Unless there are random mutations during growth the should have exactly the same DNA as identical twins come from 1 egg and 1 sperm.

[Trinity]

I asked my mother this question once.

She's a twin, her twin brother was gay. Was as in past tense, he's gone now and has been for many years. I believe he passed back in 1989 or 1990, and yes he did die of AIDS.

I asked her what was he like growing up? She said he always played with the girls, and played with dolls, and other things most boy's didn't do. Which I am sure pleased their father, since he was an abusive alcoholic.

Is it genetic? maybe, maybe not.

Could be he was in fact born that way, or could be the environment in which he was raised. I'm sure that environment they were raised in, was not like leave it to beaver. Based on the few stories I have been able to pry out of my mother.

[Mr. P]

Unless there are random mutations during growth the should have exactly the same DNA as identical twins come from 1 egg and 1 sperm.

Donno..seems logical but if "identical" twins Jane and John are killed and the bodies destroyed beyond recognition ...how do we determine which body is Jane and which is John? XY chromosome I guess..which proves that "identical" ain't "identical".

Pretty sure it goes farther than XY.

[Trinity]

Donno..seems logical but if "identical" twins Jane and John are killed and the bodies destroyed beyond recognition ...how do we determine which body is Jane and which is John? XY chromosome I guess..which proves that "identical" ain't "identical".

Pretty sure it goes farther than XY.

P brought up and interesting question.......

Jane and John would not be considered identical twins because they are male and female....but.......if it were Jen and Jane who are identical twins, how could they tell the bodies apart? (serious question here anyone know the answer cause I'd like to know)

[Noir]

P brought up and interesting question.......

Jane and John would not be considered identical twins because they are male and female....but.......if it were Jen and Jane who are identical twins, how could they tell the bodies apart? (serious question here anyone know the answer cause I'd like to know)

if you type into google 'male and female identical twins' the first result should be from a site called 'madsci.org' it has a good explination of it all (sorry I can't copy & paste or provide a direct link but I'm on my mobile)

The basic gist of the artical is that while you can have male & female identical twins it is very rare and they normally suffer from health problems.

[Missileman]

Identical physically, including DNA, doesn't mean identical mentally. The "homosexuality is a choice" crowd always goes on about a gay gene. It's more likely to be a developmental disorder that happens during brain formation that while not specifically associated with a gene is something a person is born with nonetheless.

A longtime friend has an identical twin brother who suffers from agoraphobia and anxiety that my friend has never had any symptoms of.

[MtnBiker]

Maybe they are both homosexual.

[Missileman]

I dont mean to put words in your mouth here, but it sounds like you are saying homosexuality could be a mental disorder based on problems with brain development.

I would use "condition' or "abnormality", not disorder.

[avatar4321]

Identical physically, including DNA, doesn't mean identical mentally. The "homosexuality is a choice" crowd always goes on about a gay gene. It's more likely to be a developmental disorder that happens during brain formation that while not specifically associated with a gene is something a person is born with nonetheless.

A longtime friend has an identical twin brother who suffers from agoraphobia and anxiety that my friend has never had any symptoms of.

I dont mean to put words in your mouth here, but it sounds like you are saying homosexuality could be a mental disorder based on problems with brain development.

[glockmail]

I asked my mother this question once.

She's a twin, her twin brother was gay. Was as in past tense, he's gone now and has been for many years. I believe he passed back in 1989 or 1990, and yes he did die of AIDS.

I asked her what was he like growing up? She said he always played with the girls, and played with dolls, and other things most boy's didn't do. Which I am sure pleased their father, since he was an abusive alcoholic.

Is it genetic? maybe, maybe not.

Could be he was in fact born that way, or could be the environment in which he was raised. I'm sure that environment they were raised in, was not like leave it to beaver. Based on the few stories I have been able to pry out of my mother.

Boy and girl twins are not identical. The example I give in the OP is.

Keep at your Mom for stories about your uncle. My Dad has told me some amazing stuff in just the last few years, when he was younger never told us kids anything. I found out he met my mom when they were in Junior High, and the first time he kissed her, she slapped him and wouldn't talk to him for a year. :laugh2:

[glockmail]

Donno..seems logical but if "identical" twins Jane and John are killed and the bodies destroyed beyond recognition ...how do we determine which body is Jane and which is John? XY chromosome I guess..which proves that "identical" ain't "identical".

Pretty sure it goes farther than XY.
A boy and girl twin aren't "identical" twins.


identical twins.
See monozygotic twins.

Twins derived from the same fertilized ovum that at an early stage of development becomes separated into independently growing cell aggregations, giving rise to two individuals of the same sex, identical genetic makeup, and closely similar appearance.

monozygotic twins two individuals developed from one fertilized oocyte; they have identical genomes.http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/identical+twins

[glockmail]

Identical physically, including DNA, doesn't mean identical mentally. The "homosexuality is a choice" crowd always goes on about a gay gene. It's more likely to be a developmental disorder that happens during brain formation that while not specifically associated with a gene is something a person is born with nonetheless.

A longtime friend has an identical twin brother who suffers from agoraphobia and anxiety that my friend has never had any symptoms of.

I have agoraphobia myself, and it developed because I grew up in a crowded metro area that I disliked, and spent many hours in traffic jams. Yet I have two sisters that still live there and wouldn't think of living somewhere else.

Since both twins were in the same uterus, how could one develop abnormal in this one aspect while being nearly identical in every other behavior. For instance, both girls were, still are, great athletes and are both Olympic medalists, in the same sport.

[glockmail]

Maybe they are both homosexual. One's married to a real "old school" guy. Doesn't seem likely.

[Missileman]

Okay Av...how did I quote and answer you a minute before you posted your question?

[avatar4321]

Okay Av...how did I quote and answer you a minute before you posted your question?

That's a really good question.

[Trinity]

Boy and girl twins are not identical. The example I give in the OP is.

Keep at your Mom for stories about your uncle. My Dad has told me some amazing stuff in just the last few years, when he was younger never told us kids anything. I found out he met my mom when they were in Junior High, and the first time he kissed her, she slapped him and wouldn't talk to him for a year. :laugh2:

I have she has told me a little more since then and most of them were not pretty which makes me wonder if he was in fact born this way, or it became because of the way they were treated in the home.

[glockmail]

That happens on VBulletin sometimes.

[Trinity]

Okay Av...how did I quote and answer you a minute before you posted your question?

I had that happen to me the other day and was wondering the same thing???!!!!

[glockmail]

I have she has told me a little more since then and most of them were not pretty which makes me wonder if he was in fact born this way, or it became because of the way they were treated in the home.
I've been doing some research into my own lineage lately and us kids were basically told nothing beyond my fraternal grandfather. I was able to contact a relative my mother's age who told me that her father (my grandfather's cousin) was basically a child molester. That explains why the lineage was never discussed.

[DannyR]

Someone explain to me how this is possible, if homosexuality is a genetic trait.

I don't believe anyone has claimed there is a single gay gene that controls personality. Humans don't have on/off switches that activate aspects of their personality.

What I've read of twin studies in the past is that it is much more likely for a twin (even separated twins who've never met) to be gay compared to normal siblings. But no study has put that figure at 100%. This clearly indicates genetics play a part, but are not the entirety of the equation.

[glockmail]

I don't believe anyone has claimed there is a single gay gene that controls personality. Humans don't have on/off switches that activate aspects of their personality.

What I've read of twin studies in the past is that it is much more likely for a twin (even separated twins who've never met) to be gay compared to normal siblings. But no study has put that figure at 100%. This clearly indicates genetics play a part, but are not the entirety of the equation. Never heard that about twins being gay.

[Trinity]

I've been doing some research into my own lineage lately and us kids were basically told nothing beyond my fraternal grandfather. I was able to contact a relative my mother's age who told me that her father (my grandfather's cousin) was basically a child molester. That explains why the lineage was never discussed.

I don't know much about mine either. The most I have heard is I have Iroquois, Cheyenne, and Cherokee Indian in me. I also heard that my great grandmother was full blooded Indian but no one would admit it. And I am related to Kaiser Wilhelm. And I had a great Uncle who was supposed to get on the Titanic, his luggage made it, but he did not, lucky for him.

[Trinity]

Never heard that about twins being gay.

I have never heard that one either. Was that Identical twins or Fraternal twins? Or both?

[DannyR]

Never heard that about twins being gay.The first big study was Bailey and Pillard 1991 (http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/48/12/1089) that showed a rather large correlation:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9D0CE7DD143AF934A25751C1A967958260
"We found 52 percent of identical twin brothers of gay men also were gay, compared with 22 percent of fraternal twins, compared with 11 percent of genetically unrelated brothers"A followup study done in Australia using a bigger group and relying less on self-volunteers found the rate closer to 20%, which is still over double the rate between non-twin siblings.



I have never heard that one either. Was that Identical twins or Fraternal twins? Or both?As you can see above, it was both. And also included non-related brothers as well, to basically set the base of what to expect if genetics weren't a factor and just environment was the issue. Most twin studies also try to look at twins who have been separated, which helps eliminate the environmental factor if a single family just raised their kid strangely.

[glockmail]

The first big study was Bailey and Pillard 1991 (http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/48/12/1089) that showed a rather large correlation:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9D0CE7DD143AF934A25751C1A967958260 A followup study done in Australia using a bigger group and relying less on self-volunteers found the rate closer to 20%, which is still over double the rate between non-twin siblings.
... From your link:
Homosexual male probands with monozygotic cotwins, dizygotic cotwins, or adoptive brothers were recruited using homophile publications.
Since the study recruited from gay magazines, and interviewed the gays, you'd fully expect that a high percentage of their brothers would also be gay. The fact that they correlated adoptive brothers points directly away from genetic factors. So,what does this have to do with the OP question?

[PostmodernProphet]

adoptive brothers points directly away from genetic factors.

actually, I suspect what they were looking for were twin brothers separated at birth by adoption......which would be the best control group for determining nature/environment factors.....

[glockmail]

actually, I suspect what they were looking for were twin brothers separated at birth by adoption......which would be the best control group for determining nature/environment factors.....I agree, but that doesn't appear what they did, and due to adoption secrecy laws, would be logistically unlikely if not impossible.

[DannyR]

Since the study recruited from gay magazines, and interviewed the gays, you'd fully expect that a high percentage of their brothers would also be gay.Yes, that was a primary critique of the study. As I said, it was one of the first, and like most first attempts has its flaws. Its not been the only one though. Its just the most famous. As I mentioned, there was an Australian study that had different means of recruiting volunteers.
The fact that they correlated adoptive brothers points directly away from genetic factors. So,what does this have to do with the OP question?Sorry, not guessing what you mean by "OP" question.

The purpose of looking at adoptive brothers (brothers raised in the same family who are not genetically related at all) is to determine what impact one could expect of just environment (having a gay brother in the family), and not hereditary. It sets the base level of what can be expected. Any results with higher numbers among siblings or twins indicates a positive genetic influence.

[glockmail]

Yes, that was a primary critique of the study. As I said, it was one of the first, and like most first attempts has its flaws. Its not been the only one though. Its just the most famous. As I mentioned, there was an Australian study that had different means of recruiting volunteers. Sorry, not guessing what you mean by "OP" question.

The purpose of looking at adoptive brothers (brothers raised in the same family who are not genetically related at all) is to determine what impact one could expect of just environment (having a gay brother in the family), and not hereditary. It sets the base level of what can be expected. Any results with higher numbers among siblings or twins indicates a positive genetic influence."OP" refers to "opening post", and the question was

Someone explain to me how this is possible, if homosexuality is a genetic trait.Apparently, the studies that you referenced can't answer that question, and may in fact suggest the opposite, that homosexuality is learned behavior, or more simply, a choice.

[manu1959]

I've know one of them for a while, and met her identical twin sister only once. One had longer hair so that's the only way I could tell them apart. One is normal, married, one child. The other is gay, "domestic partner", and has a kid through artificial means.

Someone explain to me how this is possible, if homosexuality is a genetic trait.

easy .... they ain't identical...........next....

why do you care about this....

[DannyR]

"OP" refers to "opening post"Ah, thanks. Hadn't seen that abbreviation before.


Apparently, the studies that you referenced can't answer that question, and may in fact suggest the opposite, that homosexuality is learned behavior, or more simply, a choice.I'm not certain how you gather that conclusion.

If an unrelated brother in the same household has an 11% chance of also being gay

but an actual genetic brother has a 22% chance

and a identical twin is up around 52%

then how in the world can you claim that implies non-genetic influence?

If genetics didn't play a roll at all, we'd expect all three numbers to be about the same - that of the non-related siblings. Perhaps higher with the twins, since many twins intentionally try to act alike.

What the studies do prove is that genetics isn't an absolute. If so, every twin would be 100%. So we know environment does play a factor. But to claim that genetics doesn't have any influence ignores the data.

[glockmail]

easy .... they ain't identical...........next....

why do you care about this.... According to them they are.

It's a curiosity, and gives weight to other potential arguments.

[glockmail]

Ah, thanks. Hadn't seen that abbreviation before.

I'm not certain how you gather that conclusion.

If an unrelated brother in the same household has an 11% chance of also being gay

but an actual genetic brother has a 22% chance

and a identical twin is up around 52%

then how in the world can you claim that implies non-genetic influence?

If genetics didn't play a roll at all, we'd expect all three numbers to be about the same - that of the non-related siblings. Perhaps higher with the twins, since many twins intentionally try to act alike.

What the studies do prove is that genetics isn't an absolute. If so, every twin would be 100%. So we know environment does play a factor. But to claim that genetics doesn't have any influence ignores the data.
I'm sorry but it was my impression that you indicated that twins were more likely to be gay then other types of births. These studies do not seem to agree with that.

If it was genetic I'd expect a much higher correlation between identical twins, approaching 100%. As it is, another possible explanation is that parents tend to dress twins alike, treat them identically, enter them in the same music/ sports programs, etc. If the developmental atmosphere caused one to go gay then it would tend to do the same with the other. A genetic brother, not so much parental identical treatment, and for an adopted child, even less so.

[Yurt]

is the argument that homosexuality is ok if it is genetic? danny seems to imply that it is and glock says it is not genetic. what exactly is the argument here? is it just because something is genetic then it is ok?

[glockmail]

is the argument that homosexuality is ok if it is genetic? danny seems to imply that it is and glock says it is not genetic. what exactly is the argument here? is it just because something is genetic then it is ok? The argument here is whether it is genetic or not. Personally I don't believe it is. A further argument is that if not genetic, that makes it very difficult for gays to demand equal rights and privileges that correspond to people who have chosen a normal lifestyle. But that further argument probably belongs in a separate thread.

[Yurt]

The argument here is whether it is genetic or not. Personally I don't believe it is. A further argument is that if not genetic, that makes it very difficult for gays to demand equal rights and privileges that correspond to people who have chosen a normal lifestyle. But that further argument probably belongs in a separate thread.

so is it their argument that just because it is genetic, means it is good? so all things passed down genetically, are good...

[eighballsidepocket]

Life is a myriad of choices, both conscious and sub-conscious.

Also those choices can be affected by outside stimulus..i.e. parental influence/nurturing.....etc..

We are born with free-will, and a natural biological drive, that needs to be carefully nurtured and directed in ways that conform to our physical, biological, sexual identity.

[DannyR]

is the argument that homosexuality is ok if it is genetic? danny seems to imply that it is and glock says it is not genetic. what exactly is the argument here? is it just because something is genetic then it is ok?If its genetic or choice doesn't matter to me. We live in a supposedly free country and I feel gays can do what they want.


If it was genetic I'd expect a much higher correlation between identical twins, approaching 100%. As it is, another possible explanation is that parents tend to dress twins alike, treat them identically, enter them in the same music/ sports programs, etc. If the developmental atmosphere caused one to go gay then it would tend to do the same with the other. A genetic brother, not so much parental identical treatment, and for an adopted child, even less so.Good explanation of your analysis. I don't see adoptive children being treated less lovingly than real children, but otherwise as valid an interpretation as others. Don't agree with the interpretation, but its still just as valid as mine I think for this particular experiment. More data is certainly needed, especially separated identical twin studies as mentioned previously.

[Missileman]

Life is a myriad of choices, both conscious and sub-conscious.

Also those choices can be affected by outside stimulus..i.e. parental influence/nurturing.....etc..

We are born with free-will, and a natural biological drive, that needs to be carefully nurtured and directed in ways that conform to our physical, biological, sexual identity.

That tactic worked wonders for Haggard! :poke:

[glockmail]

so is it their argument that just because it is genetic, means it is good? so all things passed down genetically, are good...They say thy are born that way. I say some are born blind but we don't give them a license to drive a car. *shrug*

[glockmail]

Good explanation of your analysis. I don't see adoptive children being treated less lovingly than real children, but otherwise as valid an interpretation as others. Don't agree with the interpretation, but its still just as valid as mine I think for this particular experiment. More data is certainly needed, especially separated identical twin studies as mentioned previously.

I appreciate your civility. I didn't mean that an adopted kid gets loved less just treated differently, as he will obviously have different needs and different potential. For instance the biological son my be a natural shortstop while the adopted kid a natural linebacker.

[PostmodernProphet]

is the argument that homosexuality is ok if it is genetic? danny seems to imply that it is and glock says it is not genetic. what exactly is the argument here? is it just because something is genetic then it is ok?

isn't alcoholism genetic?.....

I believe it is possible to distinguish between a person's right to equal protection even though he is an alcoholic....and a right for an alcoholic to drink......and certainly society wouldn't act to affirm and support an alcoholic's drinking activities....

[DannyR]

Most things in life I think are strongly influenced in some way by our genetics. How smart we are, if we tend to be athletic or not. Its believed there are people with genetics that make them more prone to alcohol abuse. I actually worry I might have such a thing myself, as my grandfather was an alcoholic, and I know I can get really hooked on things and addicted if I enjoy them myself. Thus I abstain.

The question on if something like the tendency to be gay vs the tendency to be a drunk shouldn't rest on genetics, but if those tendencies are harmful or not.

We legislate alcohol usually only so far as to limit its impacts on other. Don't drink and drive. No public drunkenness.

Does being gay need the same protections? I think not.

[Yurt]

isn't alcoholism genetic?.....

I believe it is possible to distinguish between a person's right to equal protection even though he is an alcoholic....and a right for an alcoholic to drink......and certainly society wouldn't act to affirm and support an alcoholic's drinking activities....

i don't believe it has been conclusively proven that alcoholism is genetic. but i believe that is a prevailing theory.

are saying -- it is possible to distinguish between a person's right to equal treatment even though they are homosexual...and a right for a homosexual to practice homosexual sex or (something else)....and certaintly society wouldn't act to affirm and support a homosexual's sexual activity....

an interesting point about homosexual activity, is that there are hetrosexuals who perform every act that a homosexual does, both male and female.

[PostmodernProphet]

are saying -- it is possible to distinguish between a person's right to equal treatment even though they are homosexual...and a right for a homosexual to practice homosexual sex or (something else)....and certaintly society wouldn't act to affirm and support a homosexual's sexual activity .

that is exactly what I am saying.....it's why I don't think we need to change the laws regarding marriage to permit gay marriage.....

[Yurt]

that is exactly what I am saying.....it's why I don't think we need to change the laws regarding marriage to permit gay marriage.....

gay marriage has nothing to do with allowing or promoting homosexual activity. marriage is a contract, not a license to have sex. as such, as it stands, homosexuals do not in fact have equal rights regarding the ability to contract for marriage.

[PostmodernProphet]

gay marriage has nothing to do with allowing or promoting homosexual activity. marriage is a contract, not a license to have sex. as such, as it stands, homosexuals do not in fact have equal rights regarding the ability to contract for marriage.

agreed....they do not have the right to marry another man.....nor should government afford them that change....anymore than government should afford an alcoholic the right to drink as much as they wish......

[Yurt]

agreed....they do not have the right to marry another man.....nor should government afford them that change....anymore than government should afford an alcoholic the right to drink as much as they wish......

we are not in agreement then, because i believe that homosexuals do not have equal rights under current laws and that this in fact violates the EP clause. you're arguing activity when what we are talking about are contract rights. as i said, marriage is not a license to engage in sex or in your analogy, a license to drink. you wouldn't tell an alcoholic that he could not sign a contract (assuming sober) just because he is an alcoholic. equal protection of the law to marital contract rights, which as you know, affords certain rights that non married people do not have.

[eighballsidepocket]

Folks there has not been a "gay" gene found in medical research.

It is hopeful thinking for some that it may exist as it removes " personal responsibility", from the scenario-choice, and legitimizes what is both biologically, and ethically unnatural.

Yes, and that goes for alcoholism too. Never the less, the propensity for one to fall into either of those identities or situations, still requires an act of the human will(chooser), that as far as I've known, is not under forced compulsion.

Yes, there are factors that lead to addictions. Namely addictions create an escape mentally, and emotionally, and are a sign of a deeper medical/psychological healing that's at the the root/cause.

Alcoholism is a type of self-medication in many cases.

People that claim that they've been gay from birth cause they can't remember any sort of tranformation from hetero to Homosexual, miss the big picture. Maturation, while we are in our very early years as toddlers, is not remembered and sexual- male/female role modeling can be badly skewed by poor parental modeling.

Now many will say, "Hey, two kids grow up in the same family yet one is gay, and one is hetero!". That is a interesting and intelligent argument, but it starts to fall down when we consider the actual psychological make up of human beings. Basically we have four distinct types of personalities in the human race; choleric, Phlematic, Melancholy, and Sanguine.

No one person is purely one of those personality traits but are often strong in one and lesser-so in another. No doubt some folks have a little of all those personality traits.

You add that to the mixture of humanity, in it's infant state, plus poor parental modeling of distinction between male and female role modeling and you will have some children that will miraculously overcome the skewed conditions.

It is not at all shocking to find that many homosexual men have been raised by a male/female parental unit, yet the role modeling of the parent's relationship in the marriage, impacted the young male child covertly and caused major sexual identity confusion. I.E.. It spins one mind/head to hear how man homosexual men had very domineering mothers and very recessive acting fathers in their lives. Does this mean that all the siblings under this parental scenario will be homosexual? No! What it does promote or engender, is the greater probability, when one takes into considerations that multitude of born-biological personality/character triats that I mentioned earlier.

Example: I raised three sons. All three are married men now. How did we raise them? Well, when it came to discipline, we had to deal with each son as differently as the multitude of colors that alley cats come in.

Our oldest son was so stubborn, and strong willed, that I don't think breaking a 2.4 over his head would make him change his direction or bent of mind and will.

Our youngest son, who is a involved in medical research and is involved in some lung cancer break-throughs rarely got a slap on his bottom, as all you had to do is just look at him with some disappointment, and he would just melt in contrite, repentant tears. Then there was that middle son. A rough tough construction worker guy. He, on the outside scared the bee-jeezers out of people, but had the heart of gold under that tough looking exterior. He would respond to discipline, but he resisted wanting to show that he was weak and couldn't take it. Yet, after discipline, he would change and we had back our obedient loving son again.
******
Now, place our three son's in a very disfunctional environment where there is still two, heterosexual - male/female parental role models, and the whole chemistry of how these three, very distinct personalities will respond to life, self-idenity, will vary like the the colors of a rainbow.

Young daughters need to be taught how to be a woman, yet they need to have their father be a role model of what a man should be too.

Actually, our church had a father-daughter dinner, just a couple weeks back that was intended to be a special time where these young unmarried daughters would be treated like special princesses by their dads. The dads were suppose to bring a flower or corsage', open the car door for their daughter, also pull out their chair and seat their daughters at the dinner table at the banquet, and promote conversation with their pre-teen and teen daughters. In fact, dads were encouraged to ask their daughters questions, and be good listeners and keep good eye contact with them, and really learn to show genuine interest in what their little lady's liked and disliked.

Young boys, and even male toddlers start to want to hang out with dear old dad at a certain age. They want to emulate dad. If dad allows mom to be very overly dominate in the marriage relationship, to the point where he's a "Yes dear"/"No dear" kind of woos......Those young little males get some real skewed imprinting in their very young absorbing minds about what a male is destined for. Some will subconciously gravitate towards the female as the ideal sex, as it seems to make things happen, and is the strong role model. Also they will perceive the male role model as weak, helpless, indecisive.

Children need identity at an extremely early age. It formulates in them even before they even could enunciate what it means to them.

I remember when my dad would go out to a fraternal meeting or go to some doings where kids couldn't come. I missed my dad, and wanted to be with him.

I also remember my dad, taking me on a very low budget, but simple fishing trip, and we just hung out together. It's never been forgotten, as it was a "male" time, and the head of the family was showing me love and acceptance, and spending individual time with me.
*******
I fully understand that not every boy or girl will even have both a mom and a dad to raise them, and might even be shuffled back and forth between step parents and biological parents, or not even have a father or mother to raise them at all.

That doesn't necessarily doom them to a skewed sexual identity, but it does place a lot of major responsibility on the parent that is there for them to work even harder to help them in maturating in a normal way. Divorced moms can overtly and covertly teach their sons and daughters that all men are dead beats, liars, adulterers.....etc... You and I know that this a formula for disaster.

A single/divorced dads can likewise pass on a skewed image of womanhood and manhood to their children too.

To much irresponsibility for choices in life are passed onto something other than ourselves, yet parental role environments are the major causation of skewed sexual role identities in children and then it is cemented in granite, when the onset of adulthood comes.

We are a fragile species, as we have consciences, and we have the ability to project our thoughts beyond realities. Children for the most part live a most subjective existence, if they are allowed to be children. This is ok, but Mom and Dad, must introduce sound reality into their lives, with the understanding that each child is unique and affected by their input in different ways.

When children see or observe in their parents roles that are balanced, with give and take; when they see mom and dad forgive one another, when even mom and dad apologize for slights towards their children, they receive what will be part of their very make-up till they grow old an die one day. When they learn that discipline is not hate, but is a form of love, then there is much hope that this next generation will turn out well, indeed.
:salute:

[PostmodernProphet]

equal protection of the law to marital contract rights, which as you know, affords certain rights that non married people do not have.

I would not pass a law saying that alcoholics can do something no one else can do (marry someone of the same sex) simply because they are alcoholics, nor would I do it for a homosexual......

[The ClayTaurus]

I would not pass a law saying that alcoholics can do something no one else can do (marry someone of the same sex) simply because they are alcoholics, nor would I do it for a homosexual......But no such law is attempting to be passed. Legalizing gay marriage would not mean it would still be illegal for heterosexuals to marry someone of the same gender. It's a law that would primarily affect the homosexual community, but it would not grant exclusive rights to them.

[PostmodernProphet]

but it would not grant exclusive rights to them.

???....considering the fact that they are the only ones who would WANT to marry someone of the same sex, how can you say that passing a law allowing marriage to someone of the same sex is not an exclusive right?......

[Missileman]

???....considering the fact that they are the only ones who would WANT to marry someone of the same sex, how can you say that passing a law allowing marriage to someone of the same sex is not an exclusive right?......

Just because no one else wants to, doesn't mean they wouldn't also have the right.

[PostmodernProphet]

Just because no one else wants to, doesn't mean they wouldn't also have the right.

then gays aren't discriminated against regarding marriage.....just because they don't want to marry a woman doesn't mean they don't have the right.......

[Missileman]

then gays aren't discriminated against regarding marriage.....just because they don't want to marry a woman doesn't mean they don't have the right.......

No one is claiming they don't have the right to marry someone of the opposite gender. It's a right they don't want to exercise...just like marrying someone of the same gender will be a right that you or I won't want to exercise when gay marriage is legalized.

[The ClayTaurus]

then gays aren't discriminated against regarding marriage.....just because they don't want to marry a woman doesn't mean they don't have the right.......I've never claimed otherwise. Nor MM.

[PostmodernProphet]

/shrugs....then the objection in #55 is moot.....

[The ClayTaurus]

/shrugs....then the objection in #55 is moot.....Now that you agree that gay marriage does not grant gays any special priviledges, I suppose it is.