Fertility clinic offers parents chance to select eye, hair color...

[-Cp]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7918296.stm

THIS IS COMPLETE BULLCRAP!!!

A US clinic has sparked controversy by offering would-be parents the chance to select traits like the eye and hair colour of their offspring.
The LA Fertility Institutes run by Dr Jeff Steinberg, a pioneer of IVF in the 1970s, expects a trait-selected baby to be born next year.
His clinic also offers sex selection.

UK fertility experts are angered that the service will distract attention from how the same technology can protect against inherited disease.
The science is based on a lab technique called preimplantation genetic diagnosis, or PGD.

This involves testing a cell taken from a very early embryo before it is put into the mother's womb.

Doctors then select an embryo free from rogue genes - or in this case an embryo with the desired physical traits such as blonde hair and blue eyes - to continue the pregnancy, and discard any others.

Dr Steinberg said couples might seek to use the clinic's services for both medical and cosmetic reasons.

For example, a couple might want to have a baby with a darker complexion to help guard against a skin cancer if they already had a child who had developed a melanoma. But others might just want a boy with blonde hair.
His clinic is offering this cosmetic selection to patients already having genetic screening for abnormal chromosome conditions in their embryos.

"Not all patients will qualify for these tests and we make NO guarantees as to 'perfect prediction' of things such as eye colour or hair colour," says the clinic's website.

Dr Steinberg said: "I would not say this is a dangerous road. It's an uncharted road."

He said the capability to offer such services had been around for years, but had been ignored by the medical community.
"It's time for everyone to pull their heads out of the sand."

Slippery slope
But Dr Gillian Lockwood, a UK fertility expert and member of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists' ethics committee, questioned whether is was morally right to be using the science in this way.

"If it gets to the point where we can decide which gene or combination of genes are responsible for blue eyes or blonde hair, what are you going to do with all those other embryos that turn out like me to be ginger with green eyes?"

She warned against "turning babies into commodities that you buy off the shelf."

Josephine Quintavalle of Comment on Reproductive Ethics said: "This is the inevitable slippery slope of a fertility process which results in many more embryos being created than can be implanted. Choices will always have to be made. Do you choose octuplets or the ones with the prettiest noses?"
In the UK, sex selection is banned and choices are currently permitted only in relationship to the baby's health.

Italian fertility law does not permit the creation of surplus embryos or selective testing. Ms Quintavalle said that was "one sure way to avoid the slippery slope".

Meanwhile, new legislation in the UK, due to come in on 6 April, will allow IVF mothers to name anyone as "father" on the birth certificate - even another woman.

The only restriction on naming a second parent will be if they are close blood relatives or if the second person does not agree.

[PostmodernProphet]

can they make black babies white?......

[glockmail]

.... what are you going to do with all those other embryos that turn out like me to be ginger with green eyes?..... Ah ha! I knew this would come down tot he age-old question: Ginger, or Maryanne?

[DannyR]

My wife and I decided long ago that if we ever decided to have a baby, we'd take the steps necessary so that we'd only have a girl. We wouldn't adjust looks, but certainly would screen for genetic diseases, and if ever one could guarantee genes for exceptional intelligence I'd love to choose that as well. Not just science fiction anymore.

[-Cp]

My wife and I decided long ago that if we ever decided to have a baby, we'd take the steps necessary so that we'd only have a girl. We wouldn't adjust looks, but certainly would screen for genetic diseases, and if ever one could guarantee genes for exceptional intelligence I'd love to choose that as well. Not just science fiction anymore.

I pray and hope you two never have a kid then..

[PostmodernProphet]

My wife and I decided long ago that if we ever decided to have a baby, we'd take the steps necessary so that we'd only have a girl.

does that include killing your first child if it's a boy?.......

[DannyR]

does that include killing your first child if it's a boy?.......You only implant the female embryos. Don't give a darn about the unemplanted ones. Turn them into stem cells if someone wants.


I pray and hope you two never have a kid thenAfraid your kid will be average by comparison? GATTACA - not just a movie anymore.

[actsnoblemartin]

You only implant the female embryos. Don't give a darn about the unemplanted ones. Turn them into stem cells if someone wants.

Afraid your kid will be average by comparison?


how come you dont want a boy?

[DannyR]

Perhaps its because I hope my kid takes after its mother in looks rather than me. ;-) If I had two, I wouldn't mind one of each. Why does one have a favorite color? *shrug* I'd just prefer a girl if I had an only child.

As it is, I'm not planning on having any. I much prefer my decadent lifestyle free of the obligation of raising rugrats. I've got enough nieces and nephews to satisfy any desire to spoil the next generation, without the obligations of diaper changing or paying for college that children bring.

[actsnoblemartin]

my settiments exactly


Perhaps its because I hope my kid takes after its mother in looks rather than me. ;-) If I had two, I wouldn't mind one of each. Why does one have a favorite color? *shrug* I'd just prefer a girl if I had an only child.

As it is, I'm not planning on having any. I much prefer my decadent lifestyle free of the obligation of raising rugrats. I've got enough nieces and nephews to satisfy any desire to spoil the next generation, without the obligations of diaper changing or paying for college that children bring.

[PostmodernProphet]

You only implant the female embryos. Don't give a darn about the unemplanted ones. Turn them into stem cells if someone wants.

that's a yes, then.....

[DannyR]

You want to classify an unemplanted clump of cells as a child, then sure, I'll kill it in a heartbeat, and sleep well that night too.

[manu1959]

You want to classify an unemplanted clump of cells as a child, then sure, I'll kill it in a heartbeat, and sleep well that night too.

your compassion is noted.......

[DannyR]

I'd much rather they be put to use in stem cell research, but that offends most conservative's delicate sensibilities as well, and funding thus doesn't exist. So its usually much easier just to toss the suckers in the trash.

[manu1959]

I'd much rather they be put to use in stem cell research, but that offends most conservative's delicate sensibilities as well, and funding thus doesn't exist. So its usually much easier just to toss the suckers in the trash.

yes it is rather obvious you are not a parent nor have you gone through what some have to get children or nt be able to have them at all.....

but you really don't need to keep posting additional proof of your lack of compassion.....

[PostmodernProphet]

I'd much rather they be put to use in stem cell research, but that offends most conservative's delicate sensibilities as well, and funding thus doesn't exist. So its usually much easier just to toss the suckers in the trash.

two fucked up wrongs do not make a right.....

[manu1959]

two fucked up wrongs do not make a right.....

question....if you did in vitro what would you do with the extra fertilized eggs...

[PostmodernProphet]

question....if you did in vitro what would you do with the extra fertilized eggs...

first of all, it would be wrong to even make "extra" children.....you are creating additional lives that you intend to terminate just to save money....if there are "extras" that exist, place them for adoption......in actuality, we chose not to go the in vitro route for that very reason.....

[manu1959]

first of all, it would be wrong to even make "extra" children.....you are creating additional lives that you intend to terminate just to save money....if there are "extras" that exist, place them for adoption......in actuality, we chose not to go the in vitro route for that very reason.....

as you know then .... you don't have a choice ... there extra .... they take all the eggs they harvest and fertlize them all then select the best two or depending on your request and there are left overs.....

you can freeze them and save them ..... donate them for science or toss them ......

[PostmodernProphet]

as you know then .... you don't have a choice ...

sure you do.....you can tell the doctor to only create one life....and if he refuses, you don't do in vitro.....you always have choices....I'm pro- those kind of choices.....

[DannyR]

first of all, it would be wrong to even make "extra" childrenNo, it would be wrong for you. Not wrong at all for me. Your morality doesn't apply to my life.


question....if you did in vitro what would you do with the extra fertilized eggsAlready answered that above. Trash them, stem cell the suckers, I don't care.

[PostmodernProphet]

No, it would be wrong for you. Not wrong at all for me. Your morality doesn't apply to my life.

Already answered that above. Trash them, stem cell the suckers, I don't care.

your morality applies to the child's life....and I don't care how you try to paint it, your "morality" is immoral....as I said before, all opinions are not created equal.....yours suck......

[DannyR]

your morality applies to the child's life....and I don't care how you try to paint it, your "morality" is immoral....as I said before, all opinions are not created equalMy morality doesn't portray a lump of cells as anything other than that, a lump of cells. *lol* Its not a child's life, because they will never become a child. And no, all opinions aren't equal, which is why I don't really care what you think about how I run my life.

[manu1959]

sure you do.....you can tell the doctor to only create one life....and if he refuses, you don't do in vitro.....you always have choices....I'm pro- those kind of choices.....

yes if you could afford to do that......i guess i wanted a child so i had to make some difficult choices.......

[Abbey Marie]

(Abbey thanks God her mom nurtured her from a clump of cells to become the child of God, wife and mother she is today).

[manu1959]

My morality doesn't portray a lump of cells as anything other than that, a lump of cells. *lol* Its not a child's life, because they will never become a child. And no, all opinions aren't equal, which is why I don't really care what you think about how I run my life.

if you don't care why are you spending so much trying to convince us you don't care......

[Mr. P]

What if the thread title was: Fertility clinic offers parents chance to remove defective genes that cause disability or disease...? Instead of hair color or sex?

Would there be objections to that?

[manu1959]

What if the thread title was: Fertility clinic offers parents chance to remove defective genes that cause disability or disease...? Instead of hair color or sex?

Would there be objections to that?

they do that now in natural pregnancies.....amnio etc.....

[Lizabeth]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7918296.stm

THIS IS COMPLETE BULLCRAP!!!

A US clinic has sparked controversy by offering would-be parents the chance to select traits like the eye and hair colour of their offspring.
The LA Fertility Institutes run by Dr Jeff Steinberg, a pioneer of IVF in the 1970s, expects a trait-selected baby to be born next year.
His clinic also offers sex selection.

UK fertility experts are angered that the service will distract attention from how the same technology can protect against inherited disease.
The science is based on a lab technique called preimplantation genetic diagnosis, or PGD.

This involves testing a cell taken from a very early embryo before it is put into the mother's womb.

Doctors then select an embryo free from rogue genes - or in this case an embryo with the desired physical traits such as blonde hair and blue eyes - to continue the pregnancy, and discard any others.

Dr Steinberg said couples might seek to use the clinic's services for both medical and cosmetic reasons.

For example, a couple might want to have a baby with a darker complexion to help guard against a skin cancer if they already had a child who had developed a melanoma. But others might just want a boy with blonde hair.
His clinic is offering this cosmetic selection to patients already having genetic screening for abnormal chromosome conditions in their embryos.

"Not all patients will qualify for these tests and we make NO guarantees as to 'perfect prediction' of things such as eye colour or hair colour," says the clinic's website.

Dr Steinberg said: "I would not say this is a dangerous road. It's an uncharted road."

He said the capability to offer such services had been around for years, but had been ignored by the medical community.
"It's time for everyone to pull their heads out of the sand."

Slippery slope
But Dr Gillian Lockwood, a UK fertility expert and member of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists' ethics committee, questioned whether is was morally right to be using the science in this way.

"If it gets to the point where we can decide which gene or combination of genes are responsible for blue eyes or blonde hair, what are you going to do with all those other embryos that turn out like me to be ginger with green eyes?"

She warned against "turning babies into commodities that you buy off the shelf."

Josephine Quintavalle of Comment on Reproductive Ethics said: "This is the inevitable slippery slope of a fertility process which results in many more embryos being created than can be implanted. Choices will always have to be made. Do you choose octuplets or the ones with the prettiest noses?"
In the UK, sex selection is banned and choices are currently permitted only in relationship to the baby's health.

Italian fertility law does not permit the creation of surplus embryos or selective testing. Ms Quintavalle said that was "one sure way to avoid the slippery slope".

Meanwhile, new legislation in the UK, due to come in on 6 April, will allow IVF mothers to name anyone as "father" on the birth certificate - even another woman.

The only restriction on naming a second parent will be if they are close blood relatives or if the second person does not agree.


Jeff Goldbloom in Jurassic Park said to the old man when he was explaining the technique for obtaining dinosaur DNA ...the problem with science is that scientists never ask is whether they should!

I think that says it all.

[manu1959]

Jeff Goldbloom in Jurassic Park said to the old man when he was explaining the technique for obtaining dinosaur DNA ...the problem with science is that scientists never ask is whether they should!

I think that says it all.

i think that is actually a good thing.....it is how why have ended up living longer and better lives......

[Mr. P]

they do that now in natural pregnancies.....amnio etc.....

Nope, not the same thing..I'm talking "gene" change/removal for known abnormalities way before amniotic testing for defects or disease possible.

[manu1959]

Nope, not the same thing..I'm talking "gene" change/removal for known abnormalities way before amniotic testing for defects or disease possible.

oooooooooooooooooooooohhhh.....i thnk the same folks that would object to one would object to the other.....

me and the missus did invitro and donated the extra eggs to science.......

[Lizabeth]

Do you really think the quality of life is great in your late 70's and 80's. I see the doctors just doing everything to sustain life a little bit longer. Look at some of these people are they really living or existing? Their family doesn't know what to do with them and doesn't really care and what happens to these people with longer lives? They stagnate in nursing facilities where they are lucky if the family visits once a year. My fiance is a paramedic. On holiday weekends it is pathetic the calls he answers to take these old people to the hospital because the life saving/prolonging doctors don't want any emergency calls over the holiday.

I'm not saying end the life at a certain age, but for god's sake there is a natural cycle to it all and I think we really need to stop messing around with it.

[Mr. P]

oooooooooooooooooooooohhhh.....i thnk the same folks that would object to one would object to the other.....

me and the missus did invitro and donated the extra eggs to science.......

I think yer right. I wonder if the same folks would object if a cancer gene was found that could be removed.

Seems silly to me not to use our scientific knowledge and technology to improve life..Heck, why even have vaccines, chemo or any treatment with that attitude?

[manu1959]

Do you really think the quality of life is great in your late 70's and 80's. I see the doctors just doing everything to sustain life a little bit longer. Look at some of these people are they really living or existing? Their family doesn't know what to do with them and doesn't really care and what happens to these people with longer lives? They stagnate in nursing facilities where they are lucky if the family visits once a year. My fiance is a paramedic. On holiday weekends it is pathetic the calls he answers to take these old people to the hospital because the life saving/prolonging doctors don't want any emergency calls over the holiday.

I'm not saying end the life at a certain age, but for god's sake there is a natural cycle to it all and I think we really need to stop messing around with it.

depends on your genes and how many hard miles you have put in......but ya i expect to be in pretty good shape ..... if not my wife has promissed to put a pillow over my face....

[manu1959]

I think yer right. I wonder if the same folks would object if a cancer gene was found that could be removed.

Seems silly to me not to use our scientific knowledge and technology to improve life..Heck, why even have vaccines, chemo or any treatment with that attitude?

i believe you and i are old enough to remember when some vacines were rolled out.....i know people that still don't vacinate their kids......

seems crazy to not take advantage of science......

[Lizabeth]

I think yer right. I wonder if the same folks would object if a cancer gene was found that could be removed.

Seems silly to me not to use our scientific knowledge and technology to improve life..Heck, why even have vaccines, chemo or any treatment with that attitude?

..to select eye colors and hair color don't you think? Vaccines and the treatment and prevention of disease are not exactly the same.

As for donating fertilized eggs to science..., can you really trust scientists to ask the moral questions about whether they should and what the potential moral ramifications of those actions will be? I would forever be wondering if they grew them too long and now they suffered in some way or one was implanted, grew up and is now coming to look for "biological" Mom. WE have more sympathy for a pet than human life or potential human life. They are not spare parts.

[manu1959]

..to select eye colors and hair color don't you think? Vaccines and the treatment and prevention of disease are not exactly the same.

As for donating fertilized eggs to science..., can you really trust scientists to ask the moral questions about whether they should and what the potential moral ramifications of those actions will be? I would forever be wondering if they grew them too long and now they suffered in some way or one was implanted, grew up and is now coming to look for "biological" Mom. WE have more sympathy for a pet than human life or potential human life. They are not spare parts.

don't you kinda do that when you pick your spouse.......

i look at the donated eggs as helping save a future life......they gave theirs to help another.....

science can't take your eggs and implant them in another without your permission.....

i guess if you belive in gods will.....then he created this process to create spare parts to help the rest of us.....or you can look at it as the devil doing it.....i prefer to try and find the good in things rather than the evil.....

[DannyR]

if you don't care why are you spending so much trying to convince us you don't care......Who's trying to convince anybody. Guy asked a question, I answered it. *shrug* He's the one saying I'm wrong, as if his idea of morals makes me do anything differently. If you look back, I agreed that its wrong *for him*. I'm not the one trying to convince someone else they are wrong.

[Mr. P]

..to select eye colors and hair color don't you think? Vaccines and the treatment and prevention of disease are not exactly the same.

As for donating fertilized eggs to science..., can you really trust scientists to ask the moral questions about whether they should and what the potential moral ramifications of those actions will be? I would forever be wondering if they grew them too long and now they suffered in some way or one was implanted, grew up and is now coming to look for "biological" Mom. WE have more sympathy for a pet than human life or potential human life. They are not spare parts.

I think you misunderstand my position. I'm not advocating hair or eye color change. I'm advocating the science/technology behind it to prevent known defects and diseases. No one needs to donate eggs for some bazaar Jurassic park experiment.

[Lizabeth]

don't you kinda do that when you pick your spouse.......

i look at the donated eggs as helping save a future life......they gave theirs to help another.....

science can't take your eggs and implant them in another without your permission.....

i guess if you believe in gods will.....then he created this process to create spare parts to help the rest of us.....or you can look at it as the devil doing it.....i prefer to try and find the good in things rather than the evil.....

Maybe it has been my career in the courts and the stranger than life things I have seen that makes me the cynic. I fail to trust that people will do the right thing. Stranger things have happened with those extra fertilized eggs without the permission of the one who donated them. I witnessed the infamous Surrogate Mom case right in my own courthouse. Remember that one? It had loophole proof language in that contract too.

[DannyR]

but you really don't need to keep posting additional proof of your lack of compassion.....Funny how you claim I don't have compassion, but you admit to actually donating your own eggs to science. Sorry, but if you believe those eggs represent actual children, then your actions are the more diabolical, because you are rationalizing their deaths for the "greater good".

[manu1959]

Funny how you claim I don't have compassion, but you admit to actually donating your own eggs to science. Sorry, but if you believe those eggs represent actual children, then your actions are the more diabolical, because you are rationalizing their deaths for the "greater good".

well i guess you are the better man then.....

[manu1959]

Maybe it has been my career in the courts and the stranger than life things I have seen that makes me the cynic. I fail to trust that people will do the right thing. Stranger things have happened with those extra fertilized eggs without the permission of the one who donated them. I witnessed the infamous Surrogate Mom case right in my own courthouse. Remember that one? It had loophole proof language in that contract too.

i guess you can believe all people are evil.....i choose not to believe that....

[Lizabeth]

i guess you can believe all people are evil.....i choose not to believe that....

I never said I believe that all people are evil. I had always said to people who asked me about my job ... when what people do ceases to amaze me...it is time to retire. Needless to say I retired last October.

The road to hell is paved with the best intentions. I am not necessarily opposed to these things on religious grounds because I am not religious. But if history has taught us nothing it is that science is good but scientists are just people who for the moment believe it is the "right" thing to do. Additionally, society has drifted from accepting responsibility for ones actions and I think if science is going to do these things they will eventually refuse to accept responsibility when and if something goes wrong.

[manu1959]

I never said I believe that all people are evil. I had always said to people who asked me about my job ... when what people do ceases to amaze me...it is time to retire. Needless to say I retired last October.

The road to hell is paved with the best intentions. I am not necessarily opposed to these things on religious grounds because I am not religious. But if history has taught us nothing it is that science is good but scientists are just people who for the moment believe it is the "right" thing to do. Additionally, society has drifted from accepting responsibility for ones actions and I think if science is going to do these things they will eventually refuse to accept responsibility when and if something goes wrong.

you know if that was the rule we would living in caves.....

[Lizabeth]

you know if that was the rule we would living in caves.....

I don't think that is true. I just think given this type of technology it is no longer a natural thing and we really need to ask more questions not only of ourselves but of science for wanting to do it. What is the purpose? Is this a by-product of other research that they are able to select eye color? These are important questions for me and I would like some answers before I rubber stamp it.

You know it is interesting that most women I know say the novelty of knowing the sex with their first child was fun. But by the second they wanted it to a surprise. I think that tells us something about human nature. Whatever happened to I don't care if it is a boy or girl as long as there are 10 fingers and toes and is healthy?

I don't want to seem like I'm ignoring any response but it has been a long day and I will sign off till tomorrow. Will look for your response then. Till next time take care and be well.

[PostmodernProphet]

i look at the donated eggs as helping save a future life......they gave theirs to help another.....


that is the entire point.....they didn't give their lives.....someone else is doing it for them......

[PostmodernProphet]

Funny how you claim I don't have compassion, but you admit to actually donating your own eggs to science. Sorry, but if you believe those eggs represent actual children, then your actions are the more diabolical, because you are rationalizing their deaths for the "greater good".
funny how you can think you avoid being diabolical just because you choose to believe they aren't actual children.....Hitler used to think the Jews weren't actually people....I guess that makes him less diabolical.....

[DannyR]

funny how you can think you avoid being diabolical just because you choose to believe they aren't actual children.....Hitler used to think the Jews weren't actually people....I guess that makes him less diabolical.....Heil me!

You can think I'm diabolical all you want. I don't care.

manu however is being hypocritical because he's criticizing me, but still goes through with doing pretty much the exact same thing. Not only does he rationalize it "for the greater good" by giving them to science, but he has no problems working with people exactly like me who do the actual work.

[PostmodernProphet]

You can think I'm diabolical all you want. I don't care.

I doubt that diabolical people ever do.....

[DannyR]

Hitler used to think the Jews weren't actually people....I guess that makes him less diabolical.....And actually, yes, if Hitler did believe Jews were real people, and still sent them to there deaths, I see that as being even worse if possible. But I'm guessing you would disagree, pointing out that the results are the same.

And if results are all that matter, then manu and I are exactly alike. What difference does it make if he is believes the embryo's are babies and I do not? I guess he's just as diabolical.

[PostmodernProphet]

And actually, yes, if Hitler did believe Jews were real people, and still sent them to there deaths, I see that as being even worse if possible. But I'm guessing you would disagree, pointing out that the results are the same.

And if results are all that matter, then manu and I are exactly alike. What difference does it make if he is believes the embryo's are babies and I do not? I guess he's just as diabolical.

it isn't a question of result....it's a question that the assertion (they are not people) is so obviously absurd that he cannot wear the excuse of believing it.......

which is where you stand today....

and I'm not here to defend Manu, I'm here to paint your bullshit with the appropriate name......

[DannyR]

it isn't a question of result....it's a question that the assertion (they are not people) is so obviously absurd that he cannot wear the excuse of believing itCall it bullshit all you want, but a lump of cells created in a lab, never intended to be implanted, is not a person.

By that standard, every time my wife has a period I should be holding a funeral. :poke:

[PostmodernProphet]

Call it bullshit all you want, but a lump of cells created in a lab, never intended to be implanted, is not a person.

By that standard, every time my wife has a period I should be holding a funeral. :poke:

egg-cell.....zygote-person.....egg does not equal zygote....I hate it when people who are totally ignorant of the basics of biology get involved in these debates.....please Danny, if you don't know shit from granola, just stick to the easy issues....

[DannyR]

egg-cell.....zygote-person.....egg does not equal zygote....I hate it when people who are totally ignorant of the basics of biology get involved in these debates:lol: :laugh2: wow, you stepped in that one.

You do realize that many forms of birth control only prevent IMPLANTATION. There is absolutely no difference in what comes out each month than what is done in a lab. :clap: Unless of course you don't have sex with your wife, and thus it is only an egg that pops out.

yeah, its really me who doesn't know my biology.

[glockmail]

My wife and I decided long ago that if we ever decided to have a baby, we'd take the steps necessary so that we'd only have a girl. We wouldn't adjust looks, but certainly would screen for genetic diseases, and if ever one could guarantee genes for exceptional intelligence I'd love to choose that as well. Not just science fiction anymore.
Whatever for? Boys rock! They like to fight and wrestle, bike, hike, camp, kill and eat snakes, shoot, hunt, blow shit up, set off fire works, set fire to ant hills, compete with you at everything, and amaze your friends at ski terrain parks. :slap:

[PostmodernProphet]

wow, you stepped in that one.

I have stepped in nothing....you attempted to equate an unfertilized egg with a fertilized one....either you are ignorant of what happens when an egg becomes fertilized or you have no regard for truth.....your choice....

[Mr. P]

Whatever for? Boys rock! They like to fight and wrestle, bike, hike, camp, kill and eat snakes, shoot, hunt, blow shit up, set off fire works, set fire to ant hills, compete with you at everything, and amaze your friends at ski terrain parks. :slap:

My Daughter could whip yer boys' ass! :slap:

[glockmail]

My Daughter could whip yer boys' ass! :slap: She'd have to catch his skinny ass first, which is doubtful. :slap:

[Mr. P]

She'd have to catch his skinny ass first, which is doubtful. :slap:

That depends..where's the race?

[DannyR]

I have stepped in nothing....you attempted to equate an unfertilized egg with a fertilized oneSorry, wrong answer. Give the man his consolation prize.

Fertilized eggs come out in menses all the time. *lol* One more time, since you don't seem to be grasping this: many birth control methods prevent IMPLANTATION. Fertilized egg passes out along with everything else!

Birth control pills used to try to suppress ovulation, but the hormone requirements were too high. Thus they reduced them, and ovulation still occurs periodically (10-20% of the time). The secondary method of preventing pregnancy is that the lining of the uterus isn't ready to implant.

And methods like IUD's ONLY prevent implantation, allowing that poor little soul to be flushed away, toss in the trash each month.


either you are ignorant of what happens when an egg becomes fertilized or you have no regard for truthThe only truth here is that you are the one being ignorant and ignoring the truth. I'm sure in your own universe all birth control methods prevent an egg from becoming fertilized, and if that doesn't happen then the fertilized egg MUST implant resulting in a pregnancy. But here in the real world that doesn't happen.

Please finish scraping that poop off your shoe before it stinks up the place.


Whatever for? Boys rock! They like to fight and wrestle, bike, hike, camp, kill and eat snakes, shoot, hunt, blow shit up, set off fire works, set fire to ant hills, compete with you at everything, and amaze your friends at ski terrain parks. :slap:I know you have a strict idea of what girls are capable of and like to keep them in proper gender rolls, but in my world they can do all the above just as well as any boy. And look kickass doing it.

http://www.angryzenmaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/elizadushku.jpg

[glockmail]

That depends..where's the race?
I think you mean "what's" the race. He runs cross country (5K), long distance track (1600m and 3200m), Alpine slalom and giant slalom.

[Mr. P]

I think you mean "what's" the race. He runs cross country (5K), long distance track (1600m and 3200m), Alpine slalom and giant slalom.

My daughter runs too..does he swim? She'll whip his ass! :laugh2:

[PostmodernProphet]

Fertilized eggs come out in menses all the time. *lol*


???....really, I would have thought statistically that most menses did NOT contain fertilized eggs.....in fact, I'm willing to place money on the fact that the vast majority do not include fertilized eggs......



One more time, since you don't seem to be grasping this: many birth control methods prevent IMPLANTATION.

and what the fuck relevance does that have to do with the argument?......

I have already stated my position that I oppose any method of birth control that causes the death of a life that has begun.....buy a Trojan and get over it.....



I know you have a strict idea of what girls are capable of and like to keep them in proper gender rolls,
ah, the second way you can tell if a debater is a brainless liberal....they try to pretend that trying to keep people from killing their children is just paternalistic sexism......

anything to keep from admitting they get their rocks off by killing things weaker than they are......

[DannyR]

in fact, I'm willing to place money on the fact that the vast majority do not include fertilized eggsAnd once again, depends on the form of birth control. A woman on an IUD will pretty much always have a fertilized egg tossed as long as she's sexually active. So I'd win that bet.


I have already stated my position that I oppose any method of birth control that causes the death of a life that has begunNot my problem. I specifically said I should have a funeral when my wife has her period, not yours; and you laughingly presume to know what sort of birth control she's on.


ah, the second way you can tell if a debater is a brainless liberal....they try to pretend that trying to keep people from killing their children is just paternalistic sexismSexism? How the hell did you jump there? At least I'm a debater. I'm not the one who took a sentence totally out of context and applying it to a different conversation. I was talking about having a girl vs having a boy and the activities they could enjoy. We've already established in a different thread that glockmail holds a very conservative viewpoint on the roll of women, not believing they should be allowed in many different rolls.

[Missileman]

???....really, I would have thought statistically that most menses did NOT contain fertilized eggs.....in fact, I'm willing to place money on the fact that the vast majority do not include fertilized eggs......

15% of fertilized eggs never make it to birth due to miscarriage.



anything to keep from admitting they get their rocks off by killing things weaker than they are......

Congratulations...you just set a new benchmark in ignorant.

[PostmodernProphet]

Sexism? How the hell did you jump there? At least I'm a debater. I'm not the one who took a sentence totally out of context and applying it to a different conversation. I was talking about having a girl vs having a boy and the activities they could enjoy. We've already established in a different thread that glockmail holds a very conservative viewpoint on the roll of women, not believing they should be allowed in many different rolls.

sexism a jump....in response to some guy who accuses me of trying to hold females to gender roles.....shucks how did I ever make such a jump.....you're no debater, just a slippery little shit who tries to wiggle out of the consequences of every stupid statement he mistakenly makes.....

[PostmodernProphet]

15% of fertilized eggs never make it to birth due to miscarriage.



that's a far cry from saying the majority of women have a fertilized egg most months....



Congratulations...you just set a new benchmark in ignorant.

shit man, there's no way I could touch your record.....

[DannyR]

sexism a jump....in response to some guy who accuses me of trying to hold females to gender roles.:lol: You obviously can't read. Look at what I wrote above. I was replying to glockmail's post there. :laugh2:
who tries to wiggle out of the consequences of every stupid statement he mistakenly makes.Like you're trying to do right now?! Hilarious! You stepped in it again!

[Missileman]

that's a far cry from saying the majority of women have a fertilized egg twelve times a year......

15% is a substantial number of souls for your god to abort, uhh murder...or maybe the zygotes are practicing free will.

[DannyR]

that's a far cry from saying the majority of women have a fertilized egg most monthsHmmm, I believe you are the one who suddenly started using the word "majority" when you realized you were wrong and that fertilized eggs did occasionally get expelled monthly. Can't admit you were wrong?