Church growth/decline in America

[avatar4321]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iRiEfTrANJniD2CWpkC3hNQnnBgQD96IMOSG2


Religion news in brief
By The Associated Press – 8 hours ago

NEW YORK (AP) — Membership in the nation's two largest Christian church bodies, the Roman Catholic Church and Southern Baptist Convention, declined slightly in 2007, according to the latest edition of the Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches.

The Catholic church remains the largest body of believers in the U.S., with 67 million members, the yearbook said. But from 2006 to 2007 the church shed 398,000 members in the U.S. — a 0.59 percent drop. Southern Baptists reported 16.2 million members for a decline of 0.24 percent, or a loss of nearly 40,000 members.

Although the declines are relatively small, both churches historically have reported growth. The yearbook is published by the National Council of Churches, an ecumenical group based in New York.

Among the 25 largest churches in the U.S., four are growing, the yearbook found: the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or the Mormon church (up 1.6 percent), the Assemblies of God (up nearly 1 percent), Jehovah's Witnesses (up 2 percent), and the Church of God of Cleveland, Tenn. (up 2 percent).

Mainline Protestant denominations lost members, but were not alone in suffering declines. Those churches in the yearbook experiencing the highest rate of membership loss include predominantly white, mainline denominations the United Church of Christ (down 6 percent), the Presbyterian Church (USA) (down nearly 3 percent) and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (down more than 1 percent).

A more conservative Lutheran denomination, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, reported a decline of nearly 1.5 percent. The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church suffered a 3 percent drop.

Thought it was interesting. Discuss.

[LiberalNation]

hey look the jehovahs witnesses recruiting is finally paying off. Maybe there is someone out there who doesn't slam the door in their faces.

[Mr. P]

hey look the jehovahs witnesses recruiting is finally paying off. Maybe there is someone out there who doesn't slam the door in their faces.

You slam the door in their face? Hell, I don't even open it!!!

[PostmodernProphet]

one factor I see in my own denominiation, that I expect is true of many is the decline of rural churches....the church I grew up in back in Iowa used to have around 150 people back in the 50s....today, it only has 35.....but then, the local school was closed twenty years ago because of population decline.....and the school it was consolidated into closed ten years later...entire towns have disappeared as farms got larger and populations got smaller.....

[crin63]

The stat I heard Sunday was 200 Baptist churches are closing their doors a year. My church and another we hang out with are both growing. Its slow but steady growth. By summer next year we will have to go to 2 services on Sunday mornings.

My personal opinions are these:
That todays churches have adopted the worlds trappings and drive people away because why would they want to go where they feel mildly guilty when its no different than a nightclub. Just go to the nightclub.

Why should people go to church when all they have to do is say magic juju words, someone pronounces them saved, and tells them they can never lose it their salvation no matter what they do. Why not just go back to the nightclub.

There's little preaching against specific sins because its politically incorrect or people are so stinking sensitive that if the preachers raises his voice they are appalled because its politically incorrect.

People want to have their cake and eat it too. That's why they want to do away with the writings of the Apostle Paul. They cant live their debauched lives and still call themselves Christians if what Paul wrote is true. So rather than give up their sinful behavior they discard the parts of the Bible that conflict with their lifestyles.

One last thing, people have become so impersonal and don't want anyone asking them questions or really getting involved in their lives. Privacy gone awry. Texting, emailing and instant messaging has replaced actual contact with people.

[Abbey Marie]

The denominational Protestant churches are declining, and I believe it is for many of the reasons Crin outlined. Watered-down teachings and moral relativity are not going to feed souls.

In my personal, albeit anecdotal, experience, the growth is with the non-denoms. The one that our family attended for many years was always bursting at the seams, and had to eventually build a much larger sanctuary to hold all the new members. The growth was phenomenal.

ETA: There was no surge in the local population to account for it, btw. This church was in a well-established area.

[Mugged Liberal]

The decline of Mainline Denominations can be attributed to several societal transformations.

First is the increased secularization of our culture, a development that although I’m not condemning it, has pushed churchgoing into second place as a choice for a Sunday morning activity. For example, Sunday morning school sports. Additionally that secularization is epitomized by the philosophy of immediate gratification which is sponsored by sellers of products and purveyors of entertainment.

Secondly, a dearth if inspirational leadership and a numbing complacency. Mainline churches that have effective ministers who can inspire their congregation to engage the world around them do not decline in membership. Too many mainline ministers are enmeshed in the “way we have always done things”.

Finally, it should be noted that people are not fleeing the mainline denominations. Even the 6% decline of the United Church of Christ is not a cause for panic. It is a cause for a thorough re-examination of what the mission is and of a more effective means of connecting with the local community

[avatar4321]

The decline of Mainline Denominations can be attributed to several societal transformations.

I have to disagree with some of your analysis so here I go.


First is the increased secularization of our culture, a development that although I’m not condemning it, has pushed churchgoing into second place as a choice for a Sunday morning activity. For example, Sunday morning school sports. Additionally that secularization is epitomized by the philosophy of immediate gratification which is sponsored by sellers of products and purveyors of entertainment.

Actually, I think the greater secularizatoin the more churchgoing there is. Churches attract more people when their culture contrasts with the general societal culture. We control culture through our actions. We make choices. We dont have to accept secularization in our lives.

I think too many Churches dont require anything of their members. They dont offer them a reason to believe and be different.


Secondly, a dearth if inspirational leadership and a numbing complacency. Mainline churches that have effective ministers who can inspire their congregation to engage the world around them do not decline in membership. Too many mainline ministers are enmeshed in the “way we have always done things”.

I find that few leaders are trying to be inspirational. But its not an inspirational leader that makes a movement. Its inspired Christians who do. How can you convert people if you are afraid to open your mouth or are ashamed of who you are? How can you lift someones life if you dont listen to the Holy Spirit in your own?


Finally, it should be noted that people are not fleeing the mainline denominations. Even the 6% decline of the United Church of Christ is not a cause for panic. It is a cause for a thorough re-examination of what the mission is and of a more effective means of connecting with the local community

Exactly what point does the fleeing stop? The question that soon comes is the message from God if its not inspiring people to change their life?

[crin63]

I think too many Churches dont require anything of their members.

Although I agree with you on this point.

I know this won't be popular but I think the bigger problem is that most people in churches are not actually washed in blood born again believers who came to Jesus. They are sincere people who were told to say magic juju words in the form of a prayer and few of them actually came to Jesus to the saving of their eternal and undying souls. Prayers don't save, prayers are acts of righteousness performed by men. Asking Jesus into your heart doesn't save because you can never be made good enough to merit heaven. Performing acts of righteousness does not save.

Simple faith in and on Jesus saves but it has to be the Jesus of the Bible. Not the effeminate sissy boy that hollywood portrays.

Why is called salvation or being saved? Because there is nothing you can do for yourself to rescue yourself. If you can do it then you don't need a savior.

Many people who claim to be saved did not even know who Jesus is and was at the time they reportedly got saved and still don't. They didn't know that they are desperately wicked by their nature and in violation of all Gods laws. That their sin has separated them from God where he will not hear them.

[LiberalNation]

well glad I'm not a member of your freak church. Ideologues.

[crin63]

well glad I'm not a member of your freak church. Ideologues.

Yeah were just an old fashioned Bible believing church. You probably wouldn't want to stay several years to become a member anyway. We don't take transfers and it usually takes 3 years for someone to become a member.

[Mr. P]

Yeah were just an old fashioned Bible believing church. You probably wouldn't want to stay several years to become a member anyway. We don't take transfers and it usually takes 3 years for someone to become a member.

3 yrs.!!!??? sounds like a cult! Did Jesus have a time frame for followers?

With all do respect to yer church, crin, I think this is a good example of why folks are not in the pew on Sunday. It's akin to answering to man, not God..

Just my 2 cents.

[LiberalNation]

biblethumpers, only we have the path to heaven.

[crin63]

3 yrs.!!!??? sounds like a cult! Did Jesus have a time frame for followers?

With all do respect to yer church, crin, I think this is a good example of why folks are not in the pew on Sunday. It's akin to answering to man, not God..

Just my 2 cents.

Jesus having a time frame is kind of a silly comparison. Jesus knew whether someone actually came to him by faith believing. We wait a while to see if their is some evidence of real salvation since we cant really tell if someone actually came to Jesus or not. Only time will tell. You will know them by their fruits.

We are steadily growing. If someone comes in, hears the gospel and gets saved the first time they hear the gospel then they will end up being a member in 6-12 months. That is very unusual though. We have people who have been attending for a decade but aren't Christians. They never came to Christ but they keep coming and are more than welcomed.

[Mr. P]

Jesus having a time frame is kind of a silly comparison. Jesus knew whether someone actually came to him by faith believing...

That's my point..yer church waiting to "confirm" a new member for three yrs?
That's being judged by man..NOT God. It's ridiculous.

[LiberalNation]

We have people who have been attending for a decade but aren't Christians. They never came to Christ but they keep coming and are more than welcomed.

weirdos, do they know they aren't "christians" and are just wasting their time.

[avatar4321]

Although I agree with you on this point.

I know this won't be popular but I think the bigger problem is that most people in churches are not actually washed in blood born again believers who came to Jesus. They are sincere people who were told to say magic juju words in the form of a prayer and few of them actually came to Jesus to the saving of their eternal and undying souls. Prayers don't save, prayers are acts of righteousness performed by men. Asking Jesus into your heart doesn't save because you can never be made good enough to merit heaven. Performing acts of righteousness does not save.

Simple faith in and on Jesus saves but it has to be the Jesus of the Bible. Not the effeminate sissy boy that hollywood portrays.

Why is called salvation or being saved? Because there is nothing you can do for yourself to rescue yourself. If you can do it then you don't need a savior.

Many people who claim to be saved did not even know who Jesus is and was at the time they reportedly got saved and still don't. They didn't know that they are desperately wicked by their nature and in violation of all Gods laws. That their sin has separated them from God where he will not hear them.

I agree. alot of people go to churches and never feel the same. Im not sure all the Churches out there are condusive to that. A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation.

[avatar4321]

well glad I'm not a member of your freak church. Ideologues.

And what is freak about any of our churches?

[avatar4321]

biblethumpers, only we have the path to heaven.

no, Christ does.

[Mugged Liberal]

I have to disagree with some of your analysis so here I go.

"Actually, I think the greater secularizatoin the more churchgoing there is. Churches attract more people when their culture contrasts with the general societal culture."

That may be true of a particular denomination that feels itself opposed to what everyone around them is doing but I don't think it applies that much to the Mainline Denominations whose membership more closely reflects the general population.


"We control culture through our actions. We make choices. We dont have to accept secularization in our lives."

I agree that we control our individual culture through our actions and our choices. Yes, we don't have to accept secularization but that hasn't stopped our culture from becoming more and more secularized.


'I think too many Churches dont require anything of their members. They dont offer them a reason to believe and be different."

You are correct. Too many Mainline Church sermons do not appl;y specifically to the listeners. After all, it might offend them!


"I find that few leaders are trying to be inspirational. But its not an inspirational leader that makes a movement. Its inspired Christians who do."

I'm not hoping for an inspirational leader to make a movement. I want the current leaders to be more inspirational to keep the current members coming and also to grow their church.


"Exactly what point does the fleeing stop?"

My point was that I don't think there is a fleeing from churches. There is a decline in membership which can be turned around.

[crin63]

That's my point..yer church waiting to "confirm" a new member for three yrs?
That's being judged by man..NOT God. It's ridiculous.

Aside from being a Christians in fact and not just claiming to be one, the only difference between being a member and not being a member is being baptized, partaking of communion and the ability to vote in church business meetings. There may be a few other things I'm not recalling but that's about it.

Some people confuse church membership with actual salvation, should we give someone a false hope by accepting them as members. When they know nothing of the Jesus of the Bible. They have no idea that their sin has separated them from God. That they are condemned. Personally I think they are to important to do that too them.

We try to ascertain to the best of our abilities whether someone has come to the Jesus of the Bible before they become members. We had a woman who believed that Jesus was in God the Fathers belly until he came to earth, basically that God gave birth to Jesus. Thats not the God (read Father here) or Jesus of the Bible so she could not have come to the Jesus of the Bible for salvation because she never knew who he was.

1 Peter 3:15b says
be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.

[Mr. P]

Aside from being a Christians in fact and not just claiming to be one, the only difference between being a member and not being a member is being baptized, partaking of communion and the ability to vote in church business meetings. There may be a few other things I'm not recalling but that's about it.

Some people confuse church membership with actual salvation, should we give someone a false hope by accepting them as members. When they know nothing of the Jesus of the Bible. They have no idea that their sin has separated them from God. That they are condemned. Personally I think they are to important to do that too them.

We try to ascertain to the best of our abilities whether someone has come to the Jesus of the Bible before they become members. We had a woman who believed that Jesus was in God the Fathers belly until he came to earth, basically that God gave birth to Jesus. Thats not the God (read Father here) or Jesus of the Bible so she could not have come to the Jesus of the Bible for salvation because she never knew who he was.

1 Peter 3:15b says
be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.

Again, MANs judgment...Let go and let God, Crin.

[crin63]

Again, MANs judgment...Let go and let God, Crin.

Respectfully P, Its not mans judgment, its Gods word. He has already judged and pointing that out to someone is not judging them. Explaining the Bible and pointing out the truth of Gods word is not being judgmental or judging anyone. It is actually caring enough about that person to take time for them.

The Ethiopian eunuch needed someone to explain the Bible to him and he was a very well educated man.

Act 8:27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
Act 8:28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
Act 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
Act 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Act 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

[Mr. P]

Respectfully P, Its not mans judgment, its Gods word. He has already judged and pointing that out to someone is not judging them. Explaining the Bible and pointing out the truth of Gods word is not being judgmental or judging anyone. It is actually caring enough about that person to take time for them.


We'll just disagree, Crin..

3 yrs of judgment by a church, "group" "man", before membership IS not Gods word. It's no more than a local group requirement. Club rules, ya know?

Although I understand yer position.... as I said this is one reason I feel membership is falling.

Judge not least...you know the rest...

[PostmodernProphet]

biblethumpers, only we have the path to heaven.

logical, isn't it?.....if you don't follow the path taught by Christianity, does it make sense to think you're going to end up in the same place?.....if you're going to make your own path I suspect you need to make your own destination as well......I've often thought the ideal church would be open six days a week and closed on Sunday.......

[PostmodernProphet]

Erwin McManus, pastor of the Mosaic Church in California tells a story in one of the books he wrote about a man who worshipped in his church for years.....the man attended services, raised his hands and shouted Amen, sang in the choir.....but was adamant about his disbelief in God.....one day he came to McManus and asked to be baptised.....McManus said "but you don't believe in God".....the man said "yes, but you're all baptised. I want to be just like the rest of you"......

[PostmodernProphet]

Crin and Mr P....I don't know which of you this story helps, but it is relevant to your debate......I don't remember where I read it but it was about the minister of a high order church complaining to an evangelist who kept bringing homeless people to the worship services....seems it was offensive to some of the membership.....the evangelist replied, "God said I was to be a fisher of men. Every fisherman knows you don't clean them until after you catch them".........

[Truth Squad]

Americans might be coming to the same realization that I reached. That organized religion is a huge steaming pot of dung. Existing to deceive and steal from those who believe.
Look at the Catholic church. One basic tenet is to not worship false idols. Yet the Catholic hierarchy want everyone to respect and obey a lot of false idols at the Vatican, whose job is to tell all the following how to act and what to think.
I grew Catholic, went to their brainwashing BS schools and barely emerged as a functioning human being. It's not wonder that so many Republicans hang on every word uttered by Fox News and Blimpy Limbaugh. They grow learning how not to think for themselves.

[avatar4321]

Americans might be coming to the same realization that I reached. That organized religion is a huge steaming pot of dung. Existing to deceive and steal from those who believe.

I can tell from your language, and clear intellectual insight that your position is intelligent and well researched.



Look at the Catholic church. One basic tenet is to not worship false idols. Yet the Catholic hierarchy want everyone to respect and obey a lot of false idols at the Vatican, whose job is to tell all the following how to act and what to think.

Ive never seen Catholic encouraged to worship the Pope or any Cardinal. And you're telling me you've thought this out indepth? Forgive my skepticism.

BTW even if there are flaws in the Catholic Church, which im sure any organization involving human beings is flawed, it seems ridiculous to conclude that somehow all religious organizations are bunk and drag down humanity.

One organizations bad, therefore all must be bad. Doesnt really follow.



I grew Catholic, went to their brainwashing BS schools and barely emerged as a functioning human being.

I, for one, would dispute that assertion.


It's not wonder that so many Republicans hang on every word uttered by Fox News and Blimpy Limbaugh. They grow learning how not to think for themselves.

Yeah heaven forbid people actually listen to what others say in order to make educated decisions on their opinions. I mean Holy Crap! Someone might want to actually get differing poitns of view! We can't have that!

Why is it people like yourself assume that everyone has to agree with you or they arent thinking for themselves and are therefore brainwashed? Ive got news for you, you really arent that smart. You arent very unique. You think and talk exactly like every other person who believes that they alone in the universe have a thinking brain cell. I'm not impressed.

[-Cp]

Personally, I feel it underscores just how broken and jacked up the "churches" are here in America...

They fight amongst themselves, they demoralize the opposition and quite frankly act as if they don't give a damn about anyone who is not already a "member" and even that's debatable.

[Truth Squad]

How can anyone continue to follow Church leaders who want to spend your contributions defending known pedophile priests? Do as they say, not as they do.

[avatar4321]

Personally, I feel it underscores just how broken and jacked up the "churches" are here in America...

They fight amongst themselves, they demoralize the opposition and quite frankly act as if they don't give a damn about anyone who is not already a "member" and even that's debatable.

I think that may accurately reflect some. But honestly, I dont think it does reflect the majority.

[avatar4321]

How can anyone continue to follow Church leaders who want to spend your contributions defending known pedophile priests? Do as they say, not as they do.

Where to begin answering this. I don't even have to be Catholic to see the absurdity here.

First, accusing people of pedophilia doesnt not mean they are guilty of anything. All people are innocent until proven guilty.

Second, the Church has never defended pedophilia.

Third, it seems few if any money is going to defending known pedophilia and any defense money is being spent to keep the Church from paying every Tom, Dick, and Harry who claims to have been abused. How can anyone presume that any Church or religious organization should pay anyone for the individual actions of one of its members or even its leaders?

Seems to me that the entire pedophile priest scandal has little to do with holding the few guilty priests accountable and everything to do with making trial attorneys rich with absurd judgments.

[-Cp]

I think that may accurately reflect some. But honestly, I dont think it does reflect the majority.

In light of the data posted in the OP - how can you dispute what I said is not applicable to the majority?

[avatar4321]

In light of the data posted in the OP - how can you dispute what I said is not applicable to the majority?

Because I see nothing from the statistics that show that the majority demoralize each other and dont give a damn about anyone who isnt a member.

It could be true. I might just have limited experience. I just dont see how the stats show that.

[DannyR]

How can anyone continue to follow Church leaders who want to spend your contributions defending known pedophile priests? Do as they say, not as they do.If I recall, most Priests give up their worldly goods when they enter the priesthood. As such, the church promises to provide for them.

Are you arguing that the Church should abandon these priests, who have no livelihood of their own, and not pay for their defense?

That seems to smack of presuming their guilt rather than their innocence.

[PostmodernProphet]

How can anyone continue to follow Church leaders who want to spend your contributions defending known pedophile priests? Do as they say, not as they do.

..../whispers "Protestant Reformation......500 years ago......keep abreast of the news"........

[avatar4321]

..../whispers "Protestant Reformation......500 years ago......keep abreast of the news"........

Very true. lol

[Missileman]

Second, the Church has never defended pedophilia.

While this is true, it is also true that the Church went out of its way to cover up some of these pedophiles to avoid a scandal and in some cases are responsible for more children being molested because the pedophile was allowed to pick up where he left off in a new location. IMO, that's the REALLY reprehensible part of the whole deal.

[crin63]

While this is true, it is also true that the Church went out of its way to cover up some of these pedophiles to avoid a scandal and in some cases are responsible for more children being molested because the pedophile was allowed to pick up where he left off in a new location. IMO, that's the REALLY reprehensible part of the whole deal.

That was the Catholic Church. Lets not lump all churches into that category.

[Missileman]

That was the Catholic Church. Lets not lump all churches into that category.

That's why I wrote "Church" and not church. On the other hand, names like Jones, Roberts, Swaggert, Baker, Haggard, Jackson, Sharpton, etc are an indication that a relationship with a deity might be better if practiced in a one-on-one manner.

[crin63]

That's why I wrote "Church" and not church. On the other hand, names like Jones, Roberts, Swaggert, Baker, Haggard, Jackson, Sharpton, etc are an indication that a relationship with a deity might be better if practiced in a one-on-one manner.

Those were religious leaders but IMO not Christians.

I also know and know of pastors who have turned in pedophiles that got into their churches. We do an annual background on anyone that is around children in our church.

[eighballsidepocket]

This has evolved into a tricky and sensitive discussion.

If a church wants to have a 3 year testing period before allowing an attendee to become a member of that particular church......so be it.

If a Christian has a problem with those rules, then they can go "church hunting" for a biblical/Christian church that doesn't follow that methodology.

There is nothing written in the bible that says that doctrinally there must be a long testing/waiting period.

But the bible does emphasize that the saved will reveal themselves through their works.
*****
I do however understand why Crin's church does this, but I don't think that it is the "end all" of determining if one is trully saved, born again, born from above, converted....

As the bible succinctly states, there are weeds among the wheat, and their wolves in sheep's clothing. Some of those weeds will be exposed at Jesus' judgement or the end times, others may be exposed while they are still living breathing beings on planet earth.

It is true that one who is "saved" should reveal "works" in their lives that are in accordance with what Christ has said, and also His apostles and disciples in the bible.

I will have to place some careful stipulation here: There are folks that receive salvation that are in no condition to go out and save souls, nor live healthy, springy lives in the community or amongst family and reveal much of the fruits of God's Spirit within their soul.

There are people who sufferphysical/mental/emotional disorders, that clearly understand the gospel, and salvation and have surrendered their lives to God through Christ, but still suffer the maladies of physical, or psychological diseases that may constrict their lives in extreme ways.

Some salvation times may be death bed conversions. There is hardly time to test that person's convictions?

The church can observe the lives of attendees and get a something of a picture of people's lives and make some determination of whether they are saved or not, but ultimately, it is in God's realm that salvation is validated.

Those who do the observing are also under scrutiny of God. Are they trully saved or are they just playing a very convincing role of be "saved".

Also, understand that true Christians can commit sins, and some of those sins can be catastrophic in nature.

I don't doubt that some preachers who have fallen due to adulterous or other sins, still were "saved", but gave in to the temptations of the "flesh", and thus damaged their ministry badly.

God holds those in the church who teach and lead to a very high standard, as they influence many, and could mislead the flock.
*******
I have attended some very strong growing bible churches where they have had new converts happen at their church, and have erroneously placed those new converts in positions of service or responsibility too soon.

I've seen Christians "burn out" who were vibrant for years in serving in lay capacities, and then just disappear from the church. Christians who actually have break-downs as they take on too much service work.

Christ said, "My Yoke Is Light". Many Christians serve not in the power of the indwelling Christ, but in their only fleshly/carnal strength, that they lived by before being saved. The difference in the outcome of their service or ministry will and is very evident. Works will either stand the "fire" of God's judgement or will burn away as wood, hay, and stubble.
******
Also keep in mind that being a member of "a church", must be differentiated from being a member of the "body of Christ" or His bride or a member of His church.

Christ's body of believers far exceeds the numbers that claim membership in churches.

That is what ultimately counts.

To be a member of a local church and identify with that local congregation is fine, but it does not determine or validate one's true salvation.

Even though there is denominations, and non-denominations, remember well, that in Christ's church there is no distinction as to who is in the "body" and who is not.

In Revelations, there were various churches that were addressed by God. That was a cultural fact, that various regions of Asia Minor had various congregations geographically, and those various churches did have their own problems and personalities.

Do not mix up or try to induce from those churches in Revelations that somehow they were different in the nature of their individual members/believers. They all had members who were saved and unsaved alike.

Crin's church will have members that in the end times will not pass the test of having their names written in Lamb's book, and neither will mine or any one elses.

Crin's church may have a longer period of testing or observing it's potential members to determine if they meet the bible criteria of born again, but 3 years or one day, of observing and making a determination will not be 100% fool proof.

The churches of Acts had members that fooled them and were not trully saved folks. Remember the husband and wife that lied to Peter and had held back part of the money they said they had give to the church.

Even those Godly folks of the first century church had goats among the sheep or weeds among the wheat.

Crin's church uses the 3 year rule, other churches are less stringent, but all in all, God will ultimately separate out the saved from the unsaved.
:salute:

[crin63]

Allow me to clarify a few things.

First off I don't believe that anyone can be said to be saved beyond any doubt and many who claim to be saved are not. We are not pronouncing anyone as being saved. We are only looking for some evidence of real conversion to Christ before someone becomes a member of our church since the church is supposed to be made up of actual believers. We are only making our best guess based on the Bible and the persons testimony.

Secondly, I believe that you can tell with many people but not all who is definitely not saved. Who do not really know Christ. There may be several who are members of our church who not actually saved, they may have a form of Godliness but are not actually saved. We understand that very well.

Third, anyone is welcome to attend our church so long as they are not coming from another actual gospel preaching church and are not a disruption. We don't take transfers because our focus is to bring the lost to Christ and most transfers come with a whole new set of problems based on previous exposure to churches.

Fourth, It usually takes a long time for people to grasp a true understanding of the gospel, to understand that they are sinners by nature as well as in their person and there is nothing that they can do apart from Christ. Most people come in thinking they can work their way to heaven or become good enough to deserve heaven or that they can be infused with enough grace to make it to heaven all of which are false beliefs. Heaven is side benefit of sins forgiven after one come to Christ. Salvation is all of grace and grace is the unmerited favor of God.

Finally most people start out only coming to 1 service every now and then, then 1 service weekly, then a couple services a week. They don't read their Bibles. So it takes along time for them to come to an understanding of the their need for salvation. They have been told that they are good, that they should have a high self esteem and to be proud, all of which are opposite of where someone needs to be in order to see a need for salvation. Only those who are dead and drowning in sins need salvation. Most people are only looking for a fire escape, not reconciliation with God. Also remember were in Los Angeles not the Bible belt.

All of this adds up to it taking a couple years or a few years for someone to become a member.

[avatar4321]

That's why I wrote "Church" and not church. On the other hand, names like Jones, Roberts, Swaggert, Baker, Haggard, Jackson, Sharpton, etc are an indication that a relationship with a deity might be better if practiced in a one-on-one manner.

Jones had little to do with Diety. Everything to do with socialism.

[Abbey Marie]

Allow me to clarify a few things.
...
Third, anyone is welcome to attend our church so long as they are not coming from another actual gospel preaching church and are not a disruption. We don't take transfers because our focus is to bring the lost to Christ and most transfers come with a whole new set of problems based on previous exposure to churches.
...


Are you saying that if I am currently attending a Bible-based church, I cannot switch to yours? If so, that is about as exclusive a church club as I've ever seen. Not every person who looks for another church is a walking "set of problems". Sometimes, the previous church isn't a good fit for the family, or doesn't have a strong youth program, or has some core problems of its own that I would not want to stay with.

[eighballsidepocket]

Are you saying that if I am currently attending a Bible-based church, I cannot switch to yours? If so, that is about as exclusive a church club as I've ever seen. Not every person who looks for another church is a walking "set of problems". Sometimes, the previous church isn't a good fit for the family, or doesn't have a strong youth program, or has some core problems of its own that I would not want to stay with.

I'm going to pipe in here too.

There are bible teaching churches that can be going through rifts and other problems where the believer is not being fed, or having time to worship or be used by God.

Some will stay in that church and forge along and others are led to move on for the sake of their family's or their own Spiritual growth and feeding.

In fact often when a person has a problem with where their church is going, it is better to not raise a ruckus and quietly look elsewhere for a body of believers and church that suits what they believe to be follow biblical precepts.

Sometimes the problem in a church needs to be confronted, but again their are biblical directions for doing that, and it is supposed to start with talking to the person or source of the problem initially. If that doesn't work then it becomes a larger concern and gradually the body or the church may be involved. In most cases it doesn't go that far.

It is a little different to turn away folks who would like to change churches. I hope, that Crin's church takes these matters on a one on one basis, rather than just saying, "No" to anyone who comes from another local/nearby bible church.

My wife and I have changed churches in the last couple years as our old church seemed as though they were more concerned about "numbers" and how many were attending and trying to come up with all kinds of methods of attracting folks into the church, rather than just trusting it to God's guidance. They appeared to be taking a rather corporate/secular approach in an attempt to stop the dwindling attendance.

Also, the large size of the congregation seemed to make it more difficult for members to connect with their fellow members.

It was just a lot of busyness and worrying about attendance and giving.:salute:

[eighballsidepocket]

Allow me to clarify a few things.

First off I don't believe that anyone can be said to be saved beyond any doubt and many who claim to be saved are not. We are not pronouncing anyone as being saved. We are only looking for some evidence of real conversion to Christ before someone becomes a member of our church since the church is supposed to be made up of actual believers. We are only making our best guess based on the Bible and the persons testimony.

Secondly, I believe that you can tell with many people but not all who is definitely not saved. Who do not really know Christ. There may be several who are members of our church who not actually saved, they may have a form of Godliness but are not actually saved. We understand that very well.

Third, anyone is welcome to attend our church so long as they are not coming from another actual gospel preaching church and are not a disruption. We don't take transfers because our focus is to bring the lost to Christ and most transfers come with a whole new set of problems based on previous exposure to churches.

Fourth, It usually takes a long time for people to grasp a true understanding of the gospel, to understand that they are sinners by nature as well as in their person and there is nothing that they can do apart from Christ. Most people come in thinking they can work their way to heaven or become good enough to deserve heaven or that they can be infused with enough grace to make it to heaven all of which are false beliefs. Heaven is side benefit of sins forgiven after one come to Christ. Salvation is all of grace and grace is the unmerited favor of God.

Finally most people start out only coming to 1 service every now and then, then 1 service weekly, then a couple services a week. They don't read their Bibles. So it takes along time for them to come to an understanding of the their need for salvation. They have been told that they are good, that they should have a high self esteem and to be proud, all of which are opposite of where someone needs to be in order to see a need for salvation. Only those who are dead and drowning in sins need salvation. Most people are only looking for a fire escape, not reconciliation with God. Also remember were in Los Angeles not the Bible belt.

All of this adds up to it taking a couple years or a few years for someone to become a member.

Crin: Like that Avatar/picture: I'm a 2nd amendment man myself. Got a nice Virgin Polish Mosin Nagant, M44 for Christmas to go along with my collection. Love firing that kicking-mule with the 7.62x54R Bulgarian ammo. Love the belching fire when it gets dark.

Am looking for a Century arms AK-47 with a California legal American action, in the near future before our fearless leader bans'em. :salute:

[Kathianne]

Crin: Like that Avatar/picture: I'm a 2nd amendment man myself. Got a nice Virgin Polish Mosin Nagant, M44 for Christmas to go along with my collection. Love firing that kicking-mule with the 7.62x54R Bulgarian ammo. Love the belching fire when it gets dark.

Am looking for a Century arms AK-47 with a California legal American action, in the near future before our fearless leader bans'em. :salute:

8 ball, I'm not sure of what that was you were espousing, my reading comprehension skits with religious topics. But somehow I think you are calling for inclusion, much like my church does, sometimes including gyrations, but inclusive it is. At the same time, they acknowledge God will ultimately judge, their job is to bring as many into the fold and beliefs as they can.

crin63 whom I like in many ways, has another take. Very biblical, as he interprets the bible. He wants God to apply that standard throughout. If so, I guess our father's house has a lot fewer rooms than I was taught.

[eighballsidepocket]

8 ball, I'm not sure of what that was you were espousing, my reading comprehension skits with religious topics. But somehow I think you are calling for inclusion, much like my church does, sometimes including gyrations, but inclusive it is. At the same time, they acknowledge God will ultimately judge, their job is to bring as many into the fold and beliefs as they can.

crin63 whom I like in many ways, has another take. Very biblical, as he interprets the bible. He wants God to apply that standard throughout. If so, I guess our father's house has a lot fewer rooms than I was taught.

I think their will be some surprises in the area of who's included....i.e. Some that the world think are "throwaways" and "strange" will be included, and some that think they're the second coming of Bill Graham will have a very big, and scarey surprise.:eek:

[Kathianne]

I think their will be some surprises in the area of who's included....i.e. Some that the world think are "throwaways" and "strange" will be included, and some that think they're the second coming of Bill Graham will have a very big, and scarey surprise.:eek:

I remember some old Irish saying my mom used to quote, I probably will screw it up:

'you may be surprised at those that greet you upon arrival in heaven, more surprised at those who are not.'

[LiberalNation]

I don't know a catholic one who follows all the rules. We just ignore some. I like ritual of it tho, very stable. The same thing, you always can know by looking in the book what the preist will be preaching today.

[LiberalNation]

Asian religion look cool as well, plus Islam and Judiesm. I'm betting all the same god. None of the first peoples were monotheist so probablity of mulitiple gods or none is high. Spirituality just makes people feel they have some control.

[PostmodernProphet]

None of the first peoples were monotheist so probablity of mulitiple gods or none is high.

that's counterintuitive, LN....even if you believe religion is simply a psychological or sociological phenomena it would appear logical that first man would conceive the possibility of A deity, and then move on to thinking in terms of specialized deities....sun, death, rivergods, fieldgods, etc.....

[LiberalNation]

or conceive of spirits, water spirit, sun spirit, ancestors.

[PostmodernProphet]

or conceive of spirits, water spirit, sun spirit.

either way, it is unlikely they would conceive of multiple spirits before conceiving the possibility of "spirithood"......it would have to have begun as a monotheistic or mono-spirit if you prefer.......

[crin63]

Are you saying that if I am currently attending a Bible-based church, I cannot switch to yours? If so, that is about as exclusive a church club as I've ever seen. Not every person who looks for another church is a walking "set of problems". Sometimes, the previous church isn't a good fit for the family, or doesn't have a strong youth program, or has some core problems of its own that I would not want to stay with.

Personally I disagree with any of your reasons for seeking a new church. Its my belief that God saves people where he intends for them to serve for the rest of their life unless they are called to be a pastor or missionary or if the church becomes apostate and starts preaching heresies. People coming and going hurt churches more than they help them. Every time someone leaves our church we grieve for months like we just went through a divorce. We pour out our lives into the people that come to our church trying to reach the lost for Christ and you just don't like the strength of our youth program so your going to just get up and leave, that's why we don't take transfers.

[eighballsidepocket]

Personally I disagree with any of your reasons for seeking a new church. Its my belief that God saves people where he intends for them to serve for the rest of their life unless they are called to be a pastor or missionary or if the church becomes apostate and starts preaching heresies. People coming and going hurt churches more than they help them. Every time someone leaves our church we grieve for months like we just went through a divorce. We pour out our lives into the people that come to our church trying to reach the lost for Christ and you just don't like the strength of our youth program so your going to just get up and leave, that's why we don't take transfers.

Crin:

Would that "No church change" belief include members who get new jobs in other areas of the country or state?

Is there something in the bible that I'm missing? I.E. Somewhere where Jesus or the disciples wrote down specifically that one should not change local church bodies unless the preaching is unbiblical?

I gave up my job for a time period years ago, and me and my family moved out of state so that I could attend bible college. We sold our home, and made many sacrifices. In order to attend our original church that was not apostate, we would have had to travel over 700 miles each Sunday to attend.

The other option would have been to not attend church at all while out of state at bible college, and attend our original church if and when we came back? The other option was to not attend bible college and figure, according to your way of thinking that I was violating God's will or out of God's will to go to bible college?

Crin: This is not too much different from denominationalism; in that people identify themselves with their local church body, to such an extent that identification with the entire body of Christ becomes secondary? Tell me that this is not what you mean?

Didn't the Apostle Paul travel all over Asia Minor, attending, and establishing churches and spending at times many months or years with them.

Barnabus traveled with Paul, and was not designated an apostle, yet really didn't worship at one particular home church. These were Godly men, who were very much in God's will, if I recall.

I guess what I'm saying; is it God's specific will that we never leave our local church where we received salvation? Could you present some biblical support/verses, as I'm deeply interested in what your saying. :)
:salute:

[crin63]

Crin:

Would that "No church change" belief include members who get new jobs in other areas of the country or state?

Is there something in the bible that I'm missing? I.E. Somewhere where Jesus or the disciples wrote down specifically that one should not change local church bodies unless the preaching is unbiblical?

I gave up my job for a time period years ago, and me and my family moved out of state so that I could attend bible college. We sold our home, and made many sacrifices. In order to attend our original church that was not apostate, we would have had to travel over 700 miles each Sunday to attend.

The other option would have been to not attend church at all while out of state at bible college, and attend our original church if and when we came back? The other option was to not attend bible college and figure, according to your way of thinking that I was violating God's will or out of God's will to go to bible college?

Crin: This is not too much different from denominationalism; in that people identify themselves with their local church body, to such an extent that identification with the entire body of Christ becomes secondary? Tell me that this is not what you mean?

Didn't the Apostle Paul travel all over Asia Minor, attending, and establishing churches and spending at times many months or years with them.

Barnabus traveled with Paul, and was not designated an apostle, yet really didn't worship at one particular home church. These were Godly men, who were very much in God's will, if I recall.

I guess what I'm saying; is it God's specific will that we never leave our local church where we received salvation? Could you present some biblical support/verses, as I'm deeply interested in what your saying. :)
:salute:

The Apostle John said that lost people leave to show that they were not part of the body of Christ. I believe sincere Christians can get caught up in church splits and people leaving as well.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The Apostle John was writing to believers. The, "they" being the unsaved and the, "us" being believers.

Paul and Barnabus were sent out as missionaries not on a whim to go make more money elsewhere. They were church planters.

Someone being sent from their church to go to Bible college is different than people just picking up and leaving. I can also see where someone might have to leave for a time to further their education but they should be on their way back when its done.

I realize this concept is not well received. It really ticks off my parents when we have this discussion. My parents go to a church and get involved long enough for people to fall in love with them, count on them and for the children to learn to love them. Then leave for one reason or another leaving brokenhearted children and people behind. The children don't understand why this person abandon them and it causes harm to the cause of Christ. They have effectively become stumbling blocks for those children.

[PostmodernProphet]

Would that "No church change" belief include members who get new jobs in other areas of the country or state?

I expect God screwed up and saved them in the wrong place.....

[Abbey Marie]

Personally I disagree with any of your reasons for seeking a new church. Its my belief that God saves people where he intends for them to serve for the rest of their life unless they are called to be a pastor or missionary or if the church becomes apostate and starts preaching heresies. People coming and going hurt churches more than they help them. Every time someone leaves our church we grieve for months like we just went through a divorce. We pour out our lives into the people that come to our church trying to reach the lost for Christ and you just don't like the strength of our youth program so your going to just get up and leave, that's why we don't take transfers.

I would find it very sad, for example, to be at a church where our daughter didn't want to go because the youth group is dead, just so we could "stay where we were saved". Perhaps we weren't yet parents and didn't need a youth group when we chose the church. What if I was saved at home, or in the park, and then looked for a church that my family felt was right for us. Are we stuck with the first church we try out? Or are we off the hook forever because we weren't saved at any church at all?

I am squirmy with the thought of my church actually turning away Christians for such a reason. In fact, the more welcoming the church to newcomers the more I like it.

How do you know that God hasn't sent these people to your church for a reason? Do you not trust that God can sort it all out better than you can?

[avatar4321]

I think if his church has stricter membership policies, its their right. We should all believe as we feel God wants us to. That doesnt mean we shouldnt seek God's will in all things, but we all have to worship according to our conscience.

So what if his church has some idiosyncrisies. Im sure all Churches do. Youre probably had somethings that outsides would think is weird that makes perfect sense to you.

Having said that, would i be asking too much to try to redirect this thread back to the original topic?

Why are some Churches declining and other gaining?

[LiberalNation]

My mother worked at a church, more political than chistianie was her opinion. Then she was not hired after the trial period because she had to take off a few days when I was in the hospital to be with me.

[crin63]

Crin:

Would that "No church change" belief include members who get new jobs in other areas of the country or state?

Is there something in the bible that I'm missing? I.E. Somewhere where Jesus or the disciples wrote down specifically that one should not change local church bodies unless the preaching is unbiblical?

I gave up my job for a time period years ago, and me and my family moved out of state so that I could attend bible college. We sold our home, and made many sacrifices. In order to attend our original church that was not apostate, we would have had to travel over 700 miles each Sunday to attend.

The other option would have been to not attend church at all while out of state at bible college, and attend our original church if and when we came back? The other option was to not attend bible college and figure, according to your way of thinking that I was violating God's will or out of God's will to go to bible college?

Crin: This is not too much different from denominationalism; in that people identify themselves with their local church body, to such an extent that identification with the entire body of Christ becomes secondary? Tell me that this is not what you mean?

Didn't the Apostle Paul travel all over Asia Minor, attending, and establishing churches and spending at times many months or years with them.

Barnabus traveled with Paul, and was not designated an apostle, yet really didn't worship at one particular home church. These were Godly men, who were very much in God's will, if I recall.

I guess what I'm saying; is it God's specific will that we never leave our local church where we received salvation? Could you present some biblical support/verses, as I'm deeply interested in what your saying. :)
:salute:


I would find it very sad, for example, to be at a church where our daughter didn't want to go because the youth group is dead, just so we could "stay where we were saved". Perhaps we weren't yet parents and didn't need a youth group when we chose the church. What if I was saved at home, or in the park, and then looked for a church that my family felt was right for us. Are we stuck with the first church we try out? Or are we off the hook forever because we weren't saved at any church at all?

I am squirmy with the thought of my church actually turning away Christians for such a reason. In fact, the more welcoming the church to newcomers the more I like it.

How do you know that God hasn't sent these people to your church for a reason? Do you not trust that God can sort it all out better than you can?

No one is turned away except someone who is disruptive or dangerous or from another local gospel preaching church, they are sent back to be faithful in their own church. If you come in and claim to be a Christian and want to become member you will be told ask about it again in a year. That way you have time to survey the situation and see if you are still interested. If you don't like it you are free to leave and go somewhere else. Church is the ultimate democracy, people vote with their feet every service.

We are averaging about 175-180 for our Sunday morning service. We have about 75% return Sunday night and Wednesday night. Saturday night we have 80-100 people there to go out and invite people to church.

You have no idea how many people come in and tell me that, "GOD LED THEM TO MY CHURCH", right up until the time they hear a strong gospel sermon or find out that the men are actually in charge instead of the women. They hit the doors running never to be heard from again. Yeah, I'm sure that was Gods leading alright.

You will be hard pressed to find a more welcoming and loving church than mine. You also would be hard pressed to find a more ethnically diverse congregation than mine.

We don't have a quote unquote youth ministry at my church. Everyone is with everyone else. The high school and college age have activities once or twice a month. We have volleyball on Saturday nights and allot of the kids hang out together but no ministry just for the youth.

[LiberalNation]

More Americans say they have no religion

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090309/ap_on_re/rel_religious_america

A wide-ranging study on American religious life found that the Roman Catholic population has been shifting out o of the Northeast to the Southwest, the percentage of Christians in the nation has declined and more people say they have no religion at all.

Fifteen percent of respondents said they had no religion, an increase from 14.2 percent in 2001 and 8.2 percent in 1990, according to the American Religious Identification Survey.

Northern New England surpassed the Pacific Northwest as the least religious region, with Vermont reporting the highest share of those claiming no religion, at 34 percent. Still, the study found that the numbers of Americans with no religion rose in every state.

"No other religious bloc has kept such a pace in every state," the study's authors said.

In the Northeast, self-identified Catholics made up 36 percent of adults last year, down from 43 percent in 1990. At the same time, however, Catholics grew to about one-third of the adult population in California and Texas, and one-quarter of Floridians, largely due to Latino immigration, according to the research.

Nationally, Catholics remain the largest religious group, with 57 million people saying they belong to the church. The tradition gained 11 million followers since 1990, but its share of the population fell by about a percentage point to 25 percent.

Christians who aren't Catholic also are a declining segment of the country.

In 2008, Christians comprised 76 percent of U.S. adults, compared to about 77 percent in 2001 and about 86 percent in 1990. Researchers said the dwindling ranks of mainline Protestants, including Methodists, Lutherans and Episcopalians, largely explains the shift. Over the last seven years, mainline Protestants dropped from just over 17 percent to 12.9 percent of the population.

The report from The Program on Public Values at Trinity College in Hartford, Conn., surveyed 54,461 adults in English or Spanish from February through November of last year. It has a margin of error of plus or minus 0.5 percentage points. The findings are part of a series of studies on American religion by the program that will later look more closely at reasons behind the trends.

The current survey, being released Monday, found traditional organized religion playing less of a role in many lives. Thirty percent of married couples did not have a religious wedding ceremony and 27 percent of respondents said they did not want a religious funeral.

About 12 percent of Americans believe in a higher power but not the personal God at the core of monotheistic faiths. And, since 1990, a slightly greater share of respondents — 1.2 percent — said they were part of new religious movements, including Scientology, Wicca and Santeria.

The study also found signs of a growing influence of churches that either don't belong to a denomination or play down their membership in a religious group.

Respondents who called themselves "non-denominational Christian" grew from 0.1 percent in 1990 to 3.5 percent last year. Congregations that most often use the term are megachurches considered "seeker sensitive." They use rock style music and less structured prayer to attract people who don't usually attend church. Researchers also found a small increase in those who prefer being called evangelical or born-again, rather than claim membership in a denomination.

Evangelical or born-again Americans make up 34 percent of all American adults and 45 percent of all Christians and Catholics, the study found. Researchers found that 18 percent of Catholics consider themselves born-again or evangelical, and nearly 39 percent of mainline Protestants prefer those labels. Many mainline Protestant groups are riven by conflict over how they should interpret what the Bible says about gay relationships, salvation and other issues.

The percentage of Pentecostals remained mostly steady since 1990 at 3.5 percent, a surprising finding considering the dramatic spread of the tradition worldwide. Pentecostals are known for a spirited form of Christianity that includes speaking in tongues and a belief in modern-day miracles.

Mormon numbers also held steady over the period at 1.4 percent of the population, while the number of Jews who described themselves as religiously observant continued to drop, from 1.8 percent in 1990 to 1.2 percent, or 2.7 million people, last year. Researchers plan a broader survey on people who consider themselves culturally Jewish but aren't religious.

The study found that the percentage of Americans who identified themselves as Muslim grew to 0.6 percent of the population, while growth in Eastern religions such as Buddhism slightly slowed.

[sgtdmski]

I believe that this analysis and the conclusions to the analysis are a little disengenuous. If we look at the trends associated with religion and the public response to survey some interesting trends occur.

For example, the number of people claiming to be Christian has declined from 86% in 1990, to 76% in 2008. That is a 10% drop over roughly a 20 year period. However, if you look at the results a little closer you will see that between 1990 and 2001 the percentage fell from 86% to 77%. Meaning that since 2001, the decline has only been 1%.

Also you can look at the numbers of people who claim no religion. In 1990 those claiming no religion was reported as 8%, in 2008 that number is 15%. However, again let us look at the period from 1990 to 2001, that number is 14.2 percent. Meaning that from 2001 to 2008 we have just a 0.8% change.

While the numbers have declined, no doubt, one might question whether or not we are seeing a change in the trend. Obviously we have had a larger decline from 1990 to 2001 than we have seen from 2001 to 2008. One must consider that we are experiencing an ending of the trend of seeing declines in numbers.

I think before making judgements we need to see what occurs over the next couple of years. (2010 and 2015). If the numbers continue to decline, then we can admit that mores are changing, however, if the numbers level off or start to increase, we may be experiencing the ending of one trend, the decline, and the beginning of a new trend, increase.

dmk

[5stringJeff]

Having said that, would i be asking too much to try to redirect this thread back to the original topic?

Why are some Churches declining and other gaining?

One possible reason: the growing religions/denominations are smaller ones. So it doesn't take as many converts to get a 1-2% rise in membership in a smaller denomination.

Another reason is the zealousness of the adherents. Mormons and JWs are well known for their mission work.

Another part may be the maintenance of the member rolls themselves. From everything I've heard, it's incredibly difficult to get your name removed from the Mormon church's rolls. I'm not sure about the others.

One reason for the losses in larger or more established denominations may be that more Christians describe themselves as "evangelical" or "mainline" or simply "Christian" without naming a denomination.

[avatar4321]

Another part may be the maintenance of the member rolls themselves. From everything I've heard, it's incredibly difficult to get your name removed from the Mormon church's rolls. I'm not sure about the others.


I guess if typing up a letter is difficult, it is.

[crin63]

One possible reason: the growing religions/denominations are smaller ones. So it doesn't take as many converts to get a 1-2% rise in membership in a smaller denomination.

Another reason is the zealousness of the adherents. Mormons and JWs are well known for their mission work.

Another part may be the maintenance of the member rolls themselves. From everything I've heard, it's incredibly difficult to get your name removed from the Mormon church's rolls. I'm not sure about the others.

One reason for the losses in larger or more established denominations may be that more Christians describe themselves as "evangelical" or "mainline" or simply "Christian" without naming a denomination.

I was a member of a Nazarene church when I was 12 (even though I was not a Christian). Although I had not attended the church in more than 30 years they still had me listed as a member. When I called and requested that my name be removed they told me I had to write a letter requesting the removal. After they received the letter then I had to talk to the pastor of that church before they would remove my membership. It seemed ridiculous to me for a church keep someone listed as a member for 30+ years when they had not been back in that long.