How Will $33/Month Stimulate The Economy?

[red states rule]

According to news reports, each worker will get a $400 tax credit ($800 for families) thanks to the mega pork bill

That is a little over $1 per day. How will that jolt the economy?

I remember well what the Dems were saying about the Bush tax cuts in 2001

"In fact, if you add it up, the average family would get about enough money to buy one extra Diet Coke a day. About 62 cents in change. Let me tell you: that’s not the kind of change I’m working for". -Al Gore on Bush Tax Cuts.

[Immanuel]

Do you have a link for the news report on this. I hadn't seen that as being a part of the bill.

But if it is in there:

Believe me, if Congress thought they could pull off this spending bill without throwing the taxpayers a bone to chew on, they would have done so. That little tidbit is only there so that they can say, "look what we are doing for you!".

Immie

[red states rule]

Do you have a link for the news report on this. I hadn't seen that as being a part of the bill.

But if it is in there:

Believe me, if Congress thought they could pull off this spending bill without throwing the taxpayers a bone to chew on, they would have done so. That little tidbit is only there so that they can say, "look what we are doing for you!".

Immie

No real link yet Immie. I have heard it several times on the radio

These tax cuts are only for single earners that make less than $70K or couples that earn less than $140K.

Didn't Obama promise to cut taxes for 95% of Americans? Didn't he say, "If you earn less than $250K, you will get a tax cut?"

When did earning more than $70K get you into the top 5%?

[darin]

And it's not even really giving more money - it's giving that money in tax credits, iirc.

$13/week. Yay. While that little damn mouse in SF gets THIRTY MILLION DOLLARS.

[Kathianne]

Here's a link:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/02/11/MNUQ15S6TB.DTL&type=politics&tsp=1

[red states rule]

And it's not even really giving more money - it's giving that money in tax credits, iirc.

$13/week. Yay. While that little damn mouse in SF gets THIRTY MILLION DOLLARS.

These tax cuts are only for single earners that make less than $70K or couples that earn less than $140K - I believe

Didn't Obama promise to cut taxes for 95%of Americans? Didn't he say, "If you earn less than $250K, you will get a tax cut?"

When did earning more than $70K get you into the top 5%?

Does anyone feel stimulated - or do you feel had?

[PostmodernProphet]

No real link yet Immie. I have heard it several times on the radio

These tax cuts are only for single earners that make less than $70K or couples that earn less than $140K.

Didn't Obama promise to cut taxes for 95% of Americans? Didn't he say, "If you earn less than $250K, you will get a tax cut?"

When did earning more than $70K get you into the top 5%?

actually, under $140k per married couple is probably pretty close to 95%.......

here it is......2006, top 5% earning threshold was $153k....http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

[red states rule]

actually, under $140k per married couple is probably pretty close to 95%.......

It is impossible for Obama to give REAL tax cuts to 95% of the people

1) 40% of workers do not pay any Federal income tax

2) The top 1% of earners currently pay 40% of all Federal inomce taxes

3) The bottom 50% pay less then 3%

What Obama will do is give money (taken form others) to people who do not pay Federal income taxes and call them tax cuts

[PostmodernProphet]

did they keep in the $2500 tax credit for people with kids in college?....I was sort of looking forward to you folks helping me pay tuition for my two.....

[No1tovote4]

I love the "War on Prosperity" avatar... That rocks...

$400, if it is all spent right after getting it, would temporarily stimulate the economy, slightly less so than Bush's $600 tax rebates.

[red states rule]

I love the "War on Prosperity" avatar... That rocks...

$400, if it is all spent right after getting it, would temporarily stimulate the economy, slightly less so than Bush's $600 tax rebates.

Actually, from what I have heard, you must change your W4 to get any of it at all.

Since many people will not bother going through the trouble of sending in the change for a buck a day, they will get nothing until the end of the tax year.

But, I am sure Pelosi and Reid will get that back by jacking up other taxes and fees

[crin63]

Lets also keep in mind that its a tax "credit" that you may have to pay back. My buddies financial status changed since the last tax credits and he has to pay back the money from the last tax credit.

[red states rule]

Lets also keep in mind that its a tax "credit" that you may have to pay back. My buddies financial status changed since the last tax credits and he has to pay back the money from the last tax credit.

So the libs screwed us again. Who would have thought?

Are there any of the Obama lovers going to address this or what?

[moderate democrat]

I would suggest that, rather than ask how the stimulus package components will work to stimulate the economy, that we sit back and observe whether or not they actually DO.

And rsr... if they DO actually work, can you begin to describe the sick empty feeling that you will feel, deep down in your gut, when you realize that, by standing united against the stimulus package, your party had doomed itself to seriously long term irrelevance?

[PostmodernProphet]

And rsr... if they DO actually work, can you begin to describe the sick empty feeling that you will feel, deep down in your gut, when you realize that, by standing united against the stimulus package, your party had doomed itself to seriously long term irrelevance?

does that mirror what you will feel if they don't work?.......particularly if the result is that not only your party, but your country is reduced to irrelevance?......

[Immanuel]

I would suggest that, rather than ask how the stimulus package components will work to stimulate the economy, that we sit back and observe whether or not they actually DO.

And rsr... if they DO actually work, can you begin to describe the sick empty feeling that you will feel, deep down in your gut, when you realize that, by standing united against the stimulus package, your party had doomed itself to seriously long term irrelevance?

Wouldn't it be better to propose alternatives rather than to sit back and wait until it is too damned late?

I pray that I feel that pain deep down in my gut rather than the feeling that everything this nation ever stood for was flushed down the toilet by Democrats and Republicans in Washington.

Immie

[red states rule]

Wouldn't it be better to propose alternatives rather than to sit back and wait until it is too damned late?

I pray that I feel that pain deep down in my gut rather than the feeling that everything this nation ever stood for was flushed down the toilet by Democrats and Republicans in Washington.

Immie

Immie, look at the Dems priorities

$50 million for the National Endowment for the Arts

$380 million in the Senate bill for the Women, Infants and Children program

$300 million for grants to combat violence against women

$650 million for digital-TV coupons

$150 million for the Smithsonian

450 million for NASA (carve-out for “climate-research missions”)

$600 million for NOAA (carve-out for “climate modeling”)

and $33 PER MONETH FOR WORKERS

[Immanuel]

Immie, look at the Dems priorities

$50 million for the National Endowment for the Arts

$380 million in the Senate bill for the Women, Infants and Children program

$300 million for grants to combat violence against women

$650 million for digital-TV coupons

$150 million for the Smithsonian

450 million for NASA (carve-out for “climate-research missions”)

$600 million for NOAA (carve-out for “climate modeling”)

and $33 PER MONETH FOR WORKERS

Yeah, so?

Is there anything wrong with praying that I am wrong and that it actually works to turn the economy around? I don't think so.

Immie

[red states rule]

Yeah, so?

Is there anything wrong with praying that I am wrong and that it actually works to turn the economy around? I don't think so.

Immie

Divine intervention is the ONLY way this mega pork bill will jolt the economy back on track Immie

[Immanuel]

Divine intervention is the ONLY way this mega pork bill will jolt the economy back on track Immie

Well, like I said to Moderate Democrat yesterday, I'm glad to know you have taken up fortune telling.

Please forgive me if I don't take your word as gospel and continue to pray that I am wrong about this. :)

Immie

[red states rule]

Well, like I said to Moderate Democrat yesterday, I'm glad to know you have taken up fortune telling.

Please forgive me if I don't take your word as gospel and continue to pray that I am wrong about this. :)

Immie

Not fortune telling - it is Economics 101. The best part of it, the basic foundations do not change with the passing of time, or who sits in power in DC

Maybe you can tell me how all the prok - which is about 90% of the bill at least - will put people to work in permanent jobs.

And how if -and it is a huge if - 4 million jobs are created, how the cost to the taxpayer of $230,000 per job is a good thing

[moderate democrat]

Economics 101 is the extent of RSR's economic understanding. Paul Krugman, on the other hand, just won the Nobel Prize for Economics and Paul sees it a bit differently. RSR would have you believe that Krugman is the political hack and that he, RSR, is the intelligent economist. Logic would dictate the reverse.

[red states rule]

Economics 101 is the extent of RSR's economic understanding. Paul Krugman, on the other hand, just won the Nobel Prize for Economics and Paul sees it a bit differently. RSR would have you believe that Krugman is the political hack and that he, RSR, is the intelligent economist. Logic would dictate the reverse.

So now Paul has more knowledge then the CBO?

You know the same CBO that libs have stood by for the last 8 years?

[moderate democrat]

So now Paul has more knowledge then the CBO?

You know the same CBO that libs have stood by for the last 8 years?


I said that Paul Krugman knew more about economics than YOU do. ANd I am fairly certain that he knows more about economics than anyone at CBO.

[red states rule]

I said that Paul Krugman knew more about economics than YOU do. ANd I am fairly certain that he knows more about economics than anyone at CBO.

The CBO is on my side on this one Virgil. Paul is a bigger liberal hack then you are - and that is an accomplishment

[moderate democrat]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100535553

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/stimulus/2009/02/05/cbo-stimulus-bill-could-meet-obamas-job-creation-goal-in-short-term.html

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2009/02/our-view-on-pol.html

The neutral Congressional Budget Office says the stimulus bill could create as many as 3.6 million jobs by the end of next year. Republicans say their less costly alternative, which relies primarily on tax cuts, would create 6.2 million jobs. But they didn't get that number from the non-partisan CBO. They used their own scorekeeping.

Guess the CBO is not as much on your side as you would like to think...Elmer.

And my name is not virgil... how thick are you?

[red states rule]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100535553

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/stimulus/2009/02/05/cbo-stimulus-bill-could-meet-obamas-job-creation-goal-in-short-term.html

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2009/02/our-view-on-pol.html

The neutral Congressional Budget Office says the stimulus bill could create as many as 3.6 million jobs by the end of next year. Republicans say their less costly alternative, which relies primarily on tax cuts, would create 6.2 million jobs. But they didn't get that number from the non-partisan CBO. They used their own scorekeeping.

Guess the CBO is not as much on your side as you would like to think...Elmer.

And my name is not virgil... how thick are you?



CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul
Stephen Dinan (Contact)
Wednesday, February 4, 2009


President Obama's economic recovery package will actually hurt the economy more in the long run than if he were to do nothing, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday.

CBO, the official scorekeepers for legislation, said the House and Senate bills will help in the short term but result in so much government debt that within a few years they would crowd out private investment, actually leading to a lower Gross Domestic Product over the next 10 years than if the government had done nothing.

CBO estimates that by 2019 the Senate legislation would reduce GDP by 0.1 percent to 0.3 percent on net. [The House bill] would have similar long-run effects, CBO said in a letter to Sen. Judd Gregg, New Hampshire Republican, who was tapped by Mr. Obama on Tuesday to be Commerce Secretary.

The House last week passed a bill totaling about $820 billion while the Senate is working on a proposal reaching about $900 billion in spending increases and tax cuts.

But Republicans and some moderate Democrats have balked at the size of the bill and at some of the spending items included in it, arguing they won't produce immediate jobs, which is the stated goal of the bill.

The budget office had previously estimated service the debt due to the new spending could add hundreds of millions of dollars to the cost of the bill -- forcing the crowd-out.

CBOs basic assumption is that, in the long run, each dollar of additional debt crowds out about a third of a dollars worth of private domestic capital, CBO said in its letter.

CBO said there is no crowding out in the short term, so the plan would succeed in boosting growth in 2009 and 2010.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/feb/04/cbo-obama-stimulus-harmful-over-long-haul/

[Trigg]

Economics 101 is the extent of RSR's economic understanding. Paul Krugman, on the other hand, just won the Nobel Prize for Economics and Paul sees it a bit differently. RSR would have you believe that Krugman is the political hack and that he, RSR, is the intelligent economist. Logic would dictate the reverse.

Well lets hope you, Krugman and Obama are right and this "stimulus" actually does work. I don't see how it will, considering the amount of pork and the fact that the previous 3 didn't do anything. But, hey maybe pigs will start flying and this new debt program will actually jump start the economy.


As for consumer confidence and personnal spending. People needed, for a long time, to cut back and spend within their means. Average credit card debt in this country was around $13,000 before this current economic mess and I'm sure that has gotten worse. If this crisis does anything maybe it will teach people to SAVE money in anticipation of hard times, instead of NEEDING that new big screen and brand name clothes.

[moderate democrat]

Well lets hope you, Krugman and Obama are right and this "stimulus" actually does work. I don't see how it will, considering the amount of pork and the fact that the previous 3 didn't do anything. But, hey maybe pigs will start flying and this new debt program will actually jump start the economy.


As for consumer confidence and personnal spending. People needed, for a long time, to cut back and spend within their means. Average credit card debt in this country was around $13,000 before this current economic mess and I'm sure that has gotten worse. If this crisis does anything maybe it will teach people to SAVE money in anticipation of hard times, instead of NEEDING that new big screen and brand name clothes.

I agree....let's remain hopeful.

[moderate democrat]

CBO said there is no crowding out in the short term, so the plan would succeed in boosting growth in 2009 and 2010.

[red states rule]

Well lets hope you, Krugman and Obama are right and this "stimulus" actually does work. I don't see how it will, considering the amount of pork and the fact that the previous 3 didn't do anything. But, hey maybe pigs will start flying and this new debt program will actually jump start the economy.


As for consumer confidence and personnal spending. People needed, for a long time, to cut back and spend within their means. Average credit card debt in this country was around $13,000 before this current economic mess and I'm sure that has gotten worse. If this crisis does anything maybe it will teach people to SAVE money in anticipation of hard times, instead of NEEDING that new big screen and brand name clothes.

Hang in there Trigg - the best is yet to come

When the Dems allow the Bush tax cuts to expire for those who pay taxes, in the lowest bracket, and those with kids will be hit the hardest. Those in the bottom tax bracket will see a 50% tax increase, in their tax rate.

The five income tax brackets (10, 25, 28, 33 and 35 percent) will be increased to 15, 28, 31, 36 and 39.6%.

Add to that the fact that the child tax credit which has been $1,000 will be cut to $500

When the cuts expire it will add approx. $1,900 to the tax bill of a family of four with an annual income of $60,000

[Immanuel]

Not fortune telling - it is Economics 101. The best part of it, the basic foundations do not change with the passing of time, or who sits in power in DC

Maybe you can tell me how all the prok - which is about 90% of the bill at least - will put people to work in permanent jobs.

And how if -and it is a huge if - 4 million jobs are created, how the cost to the taxpayer of $230,000 per job is a good thing

Like I said, I can only pray that I am wrong.

I can't answer your questions, because I don't see it as a viable solution myself, but I can hope that it works. I CAN pray that my country pulls out of this whether it be by divine intervention or simply damned good luck.

Immie

[Sitarro]

Wouldn't it be better to propose alternatives rather than to sit back and wait until it is too damned late?

I pray that I feel that pain deep down in my gut rather than the feeling that everything this nation ever stood for was flushed down the toilet by Democrats and Republicans in Washington.

Immie

Actually there were others coming up with ideas but Osama and his idiot followers wouldn't listen or even let those ideas be brought to the table. This was an e-mail I received last week from an actual conservative and it kicks the ass of the simpleton shit proposed by the clowns on the left. I received this from Newt............


Payroll Tax Stimulus. With a temporary new tax credit to offset 50% of the payroll tax, every small business would have more money, and all Americans would take home more of what they earn.


Real Middle-Income Tax Relief. Reduce the marginal tax rate of 25% down to 15%, in effect establishing a flat-rate tax of 15% for close to 9 out of 10 American workers.


Reduce the Business Tax Rate. Match Ireland’s rate of 12.5% to keep more jobs in America.


Homeowner’s Assistance. Provide tax credit incentives to responsible home buyers so they can keep their homes.


Control Spending So We Can Move to a Balanced Budget. This begins with eliminating Congressional earmarks and wasteful pork-barrel spending.


No State Aid Without Protection From Fraud. Require state governments to adopt anti-fraud and anti-theft policies before giving them more money.


More American Energy Now. Explore for more American oil and gas and invest in affordable energy for the future, including clean coal, ethanol, nuclear power and renewable fuels.


Abolish Taxes on Capital Gains. Match China, Singapore and many other competitors. More investment in America means more jobs in America.


Protect the Rights of American Workers. We must protect a worker’s right to decide by secret ballot whether to join a union, and the worker’s right to freely negotiate. Forced unionism will kill jobs in America at a time when we can’t afford to lose them.


Replace Sarbanes-Oxley. This failed law is crippling entrepreneurial startups. Replace it with affordable rules that help create jobs, not destroy them.


Abolish the Death Tax. Americans should work for their families, not for Washington.


Invest in Energy and Transportation Infrastructure. This includes a new, expanded electric power grid and a 21st century air traffic control system that will reduce delays in air travel and save passengers, employees and airlines billions of dollars per year.

[Trigg]

CBO said there is no crowding out in the short term, so the plan would succeed in boosting growth in 2009 and 2010.

They also said



President Obama's economic recovery package will actually hurt the economy more in the long run than if he were to do nothing, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday.

[red states rule]

CBO said there is no crowding out in the short term, so the plan would succeed in boosting growth in 2009 and 2010.

snip

The budget office had previously estimated service the debt due to the new spending could add hundreds of millions of dollars to the cost of the bill -- forcing the crowd-out.

CBOs basic assumption is that, in the long run, each dollar of additional debt crowds out about a third of a dollars worth of private domestic capital, CBO said in its letter.

[Sitarro]

Economics 101 is the extent of RSR's economic understanding. Paul Krugman, on the other hand, just won the Nobel Prize for Economics and Paul sees it a bit differently. RSR would have you believe that Krugman is the political hack and that he, RSR, is the intelligent economist. Logic would dictate the reverse.

When are you kids on the left going to look at actual accomplishments rather than awards people get from bullshit award group. A Nobel is as meaningless, no, more meaningless than the bullshit awards that Hollywood gives each other. What company has Paul Krugman started and successfully run? What peace did Algore create, what peace did that filth Arafat produce, Jimma Carter??????? The Nobel prize is an international joke as is Paul Krugman, a leftist hack that doesn't know anything but socialism.

Grow up and get an opinion of your own boy.

[red states rule]

When are you kids on the left going to look at actual accomplishments rather than awards people get from bullshit award group. A Nobel is as meaningless, no, more meaningless than the bullshit awards that Hollywood gives each other. What company has Paul Krugman started and successfully run? What peace did Algore create, what peace did that filth Arafat produce, Jimma Carter??????? The Nobel prize is an international joke as is Paul Krugman, a leftist hack that doesn't know anything but socialism.

Grow up and get an opinion of your own boy.

Also, since Obama won the election, the Dow is down about 2,000 points.

A real indicator of the confidence investors have in Obama, and the Dems

[Sitarro]

Also, since Obama won the election, the Dow is down about 2,000 points.

A real indicator of the confidence investors have in Obama, and the Dems

Good point Red!

[red states rule]

Good point Red!

and this the day after Obama's mega pork bill is all but passed


Stocks slide as investors worry about economy
By TIM PARADIS – 3 hours ago

NEW YORK (AP) — Investors' concerns about the U.S. economy aren't letting up even as Congress reached a deal on a $789 billion economic stimulus plan.

A surprise jump in retail sales couldn't lift the market's downcast mood either, and stocks tumbled early Thursday. Investors looked past the stimulus plan and economic reports to cautious earnings forecasts and lingering questions about the health of the banking sector.

After an intense focus on Washington this week on the stimulus plan and the Treasury Department's revision to its financial rescue plan, investors are finding little reason to be optimistic.

The House could vote on the measure as soon as Thursday, though Friday seemed more likely. The Senate would follow.

"The stimulus bill looks like a little bit of a wet blanket," said Randy Frederick, director of trading and derivatives at Charles Schwab. "There is some concern that maybe this thing won't work as well as expected."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gHs5OM3gFG_DytQQZFbWfgPT08MAD96A55PG0

[Yurt]

I said that Paul Krugman knew more about economics than YOU do. ANd I am fairly certain that he knows more about economics than anyone at CBO.

absolutely irrelevent to someone having an opinion :poke:

but you like your silly trash talk...

must be what, like 20 degrees in the summer where you live?

[manu1959]

Economics 101 is the extent of RSR's economic understanding. Paul Krugman, on the other hand, just won the Nobel Prize for Economics and Paul sees it a bit differently. RSR would have you believe that Krugman is the political hack and that he, RSR, is the intelligent economist. Logic would dictate the reverse.

krugmans expertise is international trade not domestic financial issues.....such as a recession caused by poor loan legislation policies....

[red states rule]

krugmans expertise is international trade not domestic financial issues.....such as a recession caused by poor loan legislation policies....

Is that the same Paul Krugman who was an consultant for an advisory board for Enron?

[moderate democrat]

krugmans expertise is international trade not domestic financial issues.....such as a recession caused by poor loan legislation policies....

the recession had many causes...and will have many facets to its solution. Krugman knows that.... and even if his Nobel prize winning expertise is in international trade, he certainly has forgotten more about domestic economics than RSR learned in his Econ 101 class.

[red states rule]

the recession had many causes...and will have many facets to its solution. Krugman knows that.... and even if his Nobel prize winning expertise is in international trade, he certainly has forgotten more about domestic economics than RSR learned in his Econ 101 class.

If the likes of Krugman, Carter, Gore, and Arafat win a Nobel prize - that is not saying much about the Nobel proze

[moderate democrat]

If the likes of Krugman, Carter, Gore, and Arafat win a Nobel prize - that is not saying much about the Nobel proze

so you are still hanging onto your claim that you, with your econ 101, know more about economics than a nobel prize winning economist?:lol:

[red states rule]

so you are still hanging onto your claim that you, with your econ 101, know more about economics than a nobel prize winning economist?:lol:

Changing the subject Virgil?

CBO, the voters, and Wall St are not happy with the mega pork bill

[moderate democrat]

Changing the subject Virgil?

CBO, the voters, and Wall St are not happy with the mega pork bill

voters are coming on board more and more.... and quit calling me virgil, will you please?

Elmer?

[moderate democrat]

Changing the subject Virgil?

CBO, the voters, and Wall St are not happy with the mega pork bill

and I didn't change the subject elmer... I merely replied to YOUR stupid post about nobel prize winners (which, I suppose, you felt was right on topic!:lol:)

[red states rule]

and I didn't change the subject elmer... I merely replied to YOUR stupid post about nobel prize winners (which, I suppose, you felt was right on topic!:lol:)

Keep talking Virgil - and ducking those incoming facts :laugh2:

[Yurt]

If the likes of Krugman, Carter, Gore, and Arafat win a Nobel prize - that is not saying much about the Nobel proze

its a political prize, nothing more, it used to have merit, but no one takes it seriously anymore

[red states rule]

its a political prize, nothing more, it used to have merit, but no one takes it seriously anymore

More like a Bush bashing prize - Virgil would be a top contender as well

[red states rule]

Maybe if Dems listened to the voters there would be more support for the mega pork bill


62% Want Stimulus Plan to Have More Tax Cuts, Less Spending


Monday, February 09, 2009 Email to a FriendAdvertisement
With the Senate poised to vote Tuesday on an $827-billion version of the economic recovery plan, 62% of U.S. voters want the plan to include more tax cuts and less government spending.

Just 14% would like to move in the opposite direction with more government spending and fewer tax cuts, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey. Twenty percent (20%) would be happy to pass it pretty much as is, and five percent (5%) are not sure.

Republicans and unaffiliated voters overwhelmingly want to see more tax cuts and less government spending. Democrats are more evenly divided: 42% agree with the Republicans, 32% want to pass the plan as is, and 22% would like to see more government spending and fewer tax cuts.

Most conservative and moderate voters want to see more tax cuts. A plurality of liberals say the plan should be passed pretty much as it is.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/february_2009/62_want_stimulus_plan_to_have_more_tax_cuts_less_s pending

[moderate democrat]

another economist weighs in:

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090212/OPINION01/902120326/1008

[red states rule]

another economist weighs in:

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090212/OPINION01/902120326/1008

If government spending was the key, the Dems should have turned America into a economic utopia over the last 2 years with their free spending ways

[PostmodernProphet]

another economist weighs in:

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090212/OPINION01/902120326/1008

give me a break....would you take advice from a man who looks like this?

http://cmsimg.detnews.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=C3&Date=20090212&Category=OPINION01&ArtNo=902120326&Ref=AR&Profile=1008

tell me....what does a man who got a job building a road do once the road is built and there isn't another trillion dollar bailout?.....

[red states rule]

give me a break....would you take advice from a man who looks like this?

http://cmsimg.detnews.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=C3&Date=20090212&Category=OPINION01&ArtNo=902120326&Ref=AR&Profile=1008

If he agrees with Obama - yes

[red states rule]

Even Dan Rather is outraged over Obama's lack of lack of action on economy. I suspect Dan will not be invited on the "Chris Matthews Show" anytime soon after this

snip

Where's The Outrage?
by Dan Rather

Where is the outrage from We The People? And where is the outrage—or sense of outrage—from the Treasury Department, from Congress, and, yes, from the White House and the new president himself?

We are in a downward economic spiral and the worst is probably yet to come. The situation threatens our own and future generations. Yet there is no transparency, no accountability, and no clearly-stated plan to pull us out.

Outrage is seldom justified and rarely wise, but in this fix it is both. Nevertheless, what we have gotten and are getting still is blather.

We got it from the previous presidential administration and its Treasury secretary, and from both sides of the Congressional aisle. Now we’re getting it from the new office holders. It’s a version of “We know what we’re doing, we’re deep in the process of addressing what’s wrong, but we’re not going to give you any details. And forget about transparency, much less accountability.”

This is not supposed to be the American way. The American way of meeting a challenge of the magnitude we’re facing now does not involve dithering, hiding, or dealing in sophistry.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-02-12/wheres-the-outrage/full/

[moderate democrat]

tell me....what does a man who got a job building a road do once the road is built and there isn't another trillion dollar bailout?.....

get another job in the reinvigorated ecomony.

[red states rule]

The biggest tax cut Democrats could possibly stomach was a crummy $400 per year, like that's going to prevent a house foreclosure in a nation where the average mortgage payment is triple their joke of a tax cut.

Democrats live in a fantasy land America where there are millionaires and billionaires just lining up to share their wealth with Obama and the world, while $400 is more than enough money to make an American family drop to their knees and praise God for less money than most people make in one 8-hour shift at work.

[Immanuel]

tell me....what does a man who got a job building a road do once the road is built and there isn't another trillion dollar bailout?.....

Returns to the Welfare roles and goes back to living a slave of the Democratic Party. Come on, that one was easy.


The biggest tax cut Democrats could possibly stomach was a crummy $400 per year, like that's going to prevent a house foreclosure in a nation where the average mortgage payment is triple their joke of a tax cut.


Triple $400 per year is $1,200 per year. Heck, I wish my mortgage payment was only $1,200 per year. ;)

Immie

[red states rule]

Returns to the Welfare roles and goes back to living a slave of the Democratic Party. Come on, that one was easy.

Immie

Or as MD posted - you can HOPE the unemployment rate get better and they find a permanent job

I guess that is the hope Obama promised - cross your fingers and pray for a good outcome

[PostmodernProphet]

get another job in the reinvigorated ecomony.

but if ALL the jobs added were road construction jobs, the economy wouldn't have been reinvigorated.....

[red states rule]

http://media.signonsandiego.com/img/photos/2009/02/14/breen_t350.jpg?1640fae913a1dac1b26c7eb88806b9f9b03 41305



Even liberal papers are not happy with the mega pork bill. They are seeing the obvious, unlike many of the Obamabots


snip

But the problems with the 1,000-plus-page bill are legion. The most basic flaw is that many of its projects costing tens of billions of dollars cannot be started for several years, meaning they will yield no short-term stimulus. It is outrageous to pass the tab for these projects on to our children and grandchildren.

Another unforgivable flaw is how the bill makes huge changes on major national policies without any significant debate. One provision guts the 1996 welfare reform law, which reduced caseloads by 70 percent. Instead, individuals will again be entitled to unlimited lifetime benefits without work requirements and, amazingly, states will have financial incentives to increase caseloads.

Other provisions appear to sharply increase the federal government's role in health care by establishing a national database of Americans' medical records and by monitoring every hospital's treatment standards on cost-containment grounds.

Defenders of the health provisions say these descriptions are inaccurate. But that brings us to the bill's final unforgivable flaw: Despite its importance and huge costs, it was enacted in such haste that no one has a firm handle on its contents and their consequences.

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/feb/15/lz1ed15top204621-multilevel-disaster/?zIndex=52921

[moderate democrat]

but if ALL the jobs added were road construction jobs, the economy wouldn't have been reinvigorated.....

who do you think supplies the supplies to the construction firms, or the housing for the workers or the food to feed them or the trucks to deliver the raw materials.... or the insurance policies on those trucks, or the insurance policies on the new workers hired to build those trucks or make those girders or pour that concrete. Do you think the sand and gravel boys will be hiring? Are you really incapable of seeing how economic activity spawns further economic activity?

[red states rule]

who do you think supplies the supplies to the construction firms, or the housing for the workers or the food to feed them or the trucks to deliver the raw materials.... or the insurance policies on those trucks, or the insurance policies on the new workers hired to build those trucks or make those girders or pour that concrete. Do you think the sand and gravel boys will be hiring? Are you really incapable of seeing how economic activity spawns further economic activity?

Looks like alot of illegals will get the jobs since the Dems took out the verification process for employers

Dems are looking out for their base once again, and not the country

[red states rule]

Before libs demand a link to Dems taking out the verification of workers- here it is

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=21388

[MtnBiker]

I would suggest that, rather than ask how the stimulus package components will work to stimulate the economy, that we sit back and observe whether or not they actually DO.

And rsr... if they DO actually work, can you begin to describe the sick empty feeling that you will feel, deep down in your gut, when you realize that, by standing united against the stimulus package, your party had doomed itself to seriously long term irrelevance?

Hilarous! The bill is over 1000 pages long, the legistlatures did not even have enough time to read the bill and all of the "componets". Obama in less than a month in office has gone back on his word of transparancey of government and letting bills be reviewed for 5 days before it goes to a vote and we are not to question the bill but just sit back and observe.

[PostmodernProphet]

Are you really incapable of seeing how economic activity spawns further economic activity?

why do you ignore the fact that this cement "gravy train" ends once the trillion (or the insignificant part of it that actually goes to infrastructure) runs out....

[moderate democrat]

why do you ignore the fact that this cement "gravy train" ends once the trillion (or the insignificant part of it that actually goes to infrastructure) runs out....

and why do you ignore the fact that the economy, once stimulated, has a better chance of churning out new economic activity?

[moderate democrat]

Hilarous! The bill is over 1000 pages long, the legistlatures did not even have enough time to read the bill and all of the "componets". Obama in less than a month in office has gone back on his word of transparancey of government and letting bills be reviewed for 5 days before it goes to a vote and we are not to question the bill but just sit back and observe.

question all you want... I just think that hoping for the best and wanting our economy to succeed is not too much to ask of patriots.

[MtnBiker]

Most people would agree that an improving ecomony is something we want. Placing hope in a huge spending bill is a dangerous proposition. What will the return to the American tax payers be of the billions of dollar sent to ACORN?

[moderate democrat]

Most people would agree that an improving ecomony is something we want. Placing hope in a huge spending bill is a dangerous proposition. What will the return to the American tax payers be of the billions of dollar sent to ACORN?

since the spending bill has been passed by both houses of congress and will undoubtedly be signed into law by the president tomorrow, you really only have two choices: you can hope that it succeeds, or hope that it fails.

[Kathianne]

since the spending bill has been passed by both houses of congress and will undoubtedly be signed into law by the president tomorrow, you really only have two choices: you can hope that it succeeds, or hope that it fails.

Actually as you've made very clear, the 'people' haven't any choices. It's what is.

[Immanuel]

since the spending bill has been passed by both houses of congress and will undoubtedly be signed into law by the president tomorrow, you really only have two choices: you can hope that it succeeds, or hope that it fails.

Wrong! I have a third and even a fourth option. I can hope that the President has a revelation tonight and realizes the folly of spending 1 trillion dollars that we don't have in such an inefficient manner.

Granted the possibility of that happening is miniscule, but still I can hope for that up until the point where he signs it.

Another option might be that he loses it on his desk and can't sign it so that after 10 days it is Pocket Vetoed.

Again not likely to happen, but the Lord works in mysterious ways.

Immie

[PostmodernProphet]

and why do you ignore the fact that the economy, once stimulated, has a better chance of churning out new economic activity?

????....I don't....I just don't think 80% of the items in the "Stimulus" Bill are going to stimulate the economy.....at least not in 2009.....most of it is never going further than some government agency's home office....

[PostmodernProphet]

since the spending bill has been passed by both houses of congress and will undoubtedly be signed into law by the president tomorrow, you really only have two choices: you can hope that it succeeds, or hope that it fails.


hoping it fails and expecting it to are two different events......

[Yurt]

hoping it fails and expecting it to are two different events......

if one were logical and not so partisan they could see that. while i hope it does help the economy, i see it has harming the economy in the long run. only people who are party over country would call it unpatriotic to not support this bill if one believes that the bill is going to harm this country.

the economy should be allowed to work itself out, not propped up on false stimulation.

[Yurt]

The experience in the 1930s is instructive. Even though federal government spending increased from $9.8 billion in 1934 to $14.2 billion in 1940, the unemployment rate in 1940 was still a staggering 14.6%. A 45% increase in New Deal spending in six years did not end the Depression.

Contrary to economist Paul Krugman and others, the federal government cannot spend us out of our economic quagmire. The best that the government can do is not make things worse. We don’t need more corporate or state bailouts and we don’t need vast public works programs costing many hundreds of billions. We do need more prudent private and public spending, lower taxes on income and investment, and a responsible monetary policy from the Federal Reserve. And we still need lower prices and bankruptcies to finally correct the mistakes of the boom.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=2410

[moderate democrat]

if one were logical and not so partisan they could see that. while i hope it does help the economy, i see it has harming the economy in the long run. only people who are party over country would call it unpatriotic to not support this bill if one believes that the bill is going to harm this country.

the economy should be allowed to work itself out, not propped up on false stimulation.


the bill has passed. it will be law tomorrow. Not "supporting" it at this stage is synonymous with not supporting the economy. Either you want it to succeed or you don't.

[Kathianne]

the bill has passed. it will be law tomorrow. Not "supporting" it at this stage is synonymous with not supporting the economy. Either you want it to succeed or you don't.

Wrong. Don't have to support it to want the country to come out ok.

[Trigg]

the bill has passed. it will be law tomorrow. Not "supporting" it at this stage is synonymous with not supporting the economy. Either you want it to succeed or you don't.

BULL

Everyone wants this economy to get better. Half the county however doesn't think this bill is the way to do that.

IMHO this stimulus is a huge mistake that will only lead to more debt. Saying that certainly doesn't mean I against the economy....what utter crap.

[Yurt]

the bill has passed. it will be law tomorrow. Not "supporting" it at this stage is synonymous with not supporting the economy. Either you want it to succeed or you don't.

yeah, you really continued support for iraq...obama calling for all troops out in 2007....even trying to get legisltion on that

hmmm, using your logic, you want iraq to fail :poke:

try not to be so partisan

[Trigg]

Who'd have though the wasington times was against the economy.

I thought it was called investigative reporting, my mistake.




CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul


President Obama's economic recovery package will actually hurt the economy more in the long run than if he were to do nothing, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday.

CBO, the official scorekeepers for legislation, said the House and Senate bills will help in the short term but result in so much government debt that within a few years they would crowd out private investment, actually leading to a lower Gross Domestic Product over the next 10 years than if the government had done nothing

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/feb/04/cbo-obama-stimulus-harmful-over-long-haul/

[Yurt]

and this from the liberal rag SF times:

Despite stimulus, no quick turn for jobs, economy

No, the big stimulus plan won't "save or create 3.5 million jobs," as the president and congressional Democrats claim — at least not this year.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/02/12/national/w150807S04.DTL

i'm sure mfm will surprise us and slam these liberal rags as unpatriotic :rolleyes:

[moderate democrat]

BULL

Everyone wants this economy to get better. Half the county however doesn't think this bill is the way to do that.

IMHO this stimulus is a huge mistake that will only lead to more debt. Saying that certainly doesn't mean I against the economy....what utter crap.

do you WANT the stimulus bill to succeed or DON'T you?

simple question.... show some guts and answer it.

[moderate democrat]

and this from the liberal rag SF times:

Despite stimulus, no quick turn for jobs, economy

No, the big stimulus plan won't "save or create 3.5 million jobs," as the president and congressional Democrats claim — at least not this year.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/02/12/national/w150807S04.DTL

i'm sure mfm will surprise us and slam these liberal rags as unpatriotic :rolleyes:


my name is moderate democrat. use it correctly, if you please.

If any of those liberal rags were hoping for the failure of the stimulus package like YOU are, I certainly WOULD say that they are unpatriotic.

Wanting the stimulus LAW to fail is synonymous with wanting our economy to fail at this point... and the only people I know who feel that way are unpatriotic hacks like you and your gang of sycophants on here.

[Yurt]

do you WANT the stimulus bill to succeed or DON'T you?

simple question.... show some guts and answer it.

you wanted our troops home, thus, you wanted iraq to fail :poke:

nobody wants the anything that will harm our economy, you're so partisan and blinded by party loyalty all you see is that if people don't like the bill, then this must mean they want it to fail.

wrong.

[Yurt]

my name is moderate democrat. use it correctly, if you please.

If any of those liberal rags were hoping for the failure of the stimulus package like YOU are, I certainly WOULD say that they are unpatriotic.

Wanting the stimulus LAW to fail is synonymous with wanting our economy to fail at this point... and the only people I know who feel that way are unpatriotic hacks like you and your gang of sycophants on here.

LIAR

you have admitted i don't want it to fail. recant your filthy lies.

[moderate democrat]

LIAR

you have admitted i don't want it to fail. recant your filthy lies.

I think you DO want it to fail...I think you are convinced that it is a bad thing for America.

my....you sort of overuse that "liar" word, don't you? I know some folks who would really take offense at that.

[Yurt]

I think you DO want it to fail...I think you are convinced that it is a bad thing for America.

my....you sort of overuse that "liar" word, don't you? I know some folks who would really take offense at that.

i'm sure you do "know" them mfm...

you did in fact lie, you have admitted i do not want it to fail...you either lied then or you are lying now, that is pure fact.

liar

[moderate democrat]

you wanted our troops home, thus, you wanted iraq to fail :poke:

nobody wants the anything that will harm our economy, you're so partisan and blinded by party loyalty all you see is that if people don't like the bill, then this must mean they want it to fail.

wrong.

I wanted our troops home...that has absolutely nothing to do with Iraq failing. I wanted Iraq to succeed and still do.

I think it CAN succeed without our troops there.

The stimulus bill is now reality... either you want it to succeed or you don't...and if it DOES succeed, you know it will be the death knell for your party that steadfastly opposed it all the way.... so..which is is? party or country, greg?

[moderate democrat]

i'm sure you do "know" them mfm...

you did in fact lie, you have admitted i do not want it to fail...you either lied then or you are lying now, that is pure fact.

liar


I cannot recall ever suggesting that you wanted the stimulus bill to succeed. I may have said that...but I doubt it, greg.

[Yurt]

I wanted our troops home...that has absolutely nothing to do with Iraq failing. I wanted Iraq to succeed and still do.

I think it CAN succeed without our troops there.

The stimulus bill is now reality... either you want it to succeed or you don't...and if it DOES succeed, you know it will be the death knell for your party that steadfastly opposed it all the way.... so..which is is? party or country, greg?

i think our economy CAN SUCCEED without the stimulus bill...our troops our in iraq NOW, you either want our troops there and to succeed or you don't. you clearly don't, so using YOUR logic, you want us to fail in iraq.

not sure why you keep calling me greg, that is not my name. stalker.

do you understand now the difference between your rants and reality. while we may not support the bill, we hope the economy works. you think iraq can work without our troops and still consider yourself patriotic, YET you intellectually argue a dishonest counter viewpoint that someone who thinks the economy can succeed without the bill is unpatriotic.

[Yurt]

I cannot recall ever suggesting that you wanted the stimulus bill to succeed. I may have said that...but I doubt it, greg.

that single sentiment highlights the difference between you and your "intimate friend", RSR... He does NOT want the stimulus bill to save the economy. He wants it to fail because he does not care for the United States of America unless his party can run the whole show.

:lol:

[Immanuel]

I wanted our troops home...that has absolutely nothing to do with Iraq failing. I wanted Iraq to succeed and still do.

I think it CAN succeed without our troops there.

The stimulus bill is now reality... either you want it to succeed or you don't...and if it DOES succeed, you know it will be the death knell for your party that steadfastly opposed it all the way.... so..which is is? party or country, greg?

I don't see much difference between the way you put opposition to the spending bill and they way Yurt puts your opposition to the War in Iraq. If you have the gonads to claim that anyone who does not support the Spending Bill wants the economy to fail then at least have the same to stand up and say that you wanted to war in Iraq to fail.

Personally, I don't think that any American (well, maybe RSR) wants this bill to fail nor do I think any Americans want us to fail in Iraq. But, to be consistant if you say that anyone who is opposed to the spending bill hopes for America's failure then you must say the same about the War in Iraq.

Immie

[PostmodernProphet]

Not "supporting" it at this stage is synonymous with not supporting the economy.

that's absurd.....many are convinced that supporting the economy means hoping that the guy carrying the bill to the signing gets lost and ends up in Burbank.....

[MtnBiker]

The Spending Bill is not going to improve the economy, Obama has already said as much. To paraphrase he said things are going to become worse before they become better and it could take years. To hope in a government spending bill to improve the economy is folly. One does not need to hope if the bill suceeds or fails but to hope that it does as little damage as possible. And that the real thing that will improve the economy will continue to function, that is American entrepreneurism and capitalism.

[MtnBiker]

since the spending bill has been passed by both houses of congress and will undoubtedly be signed into law by the president tomorrow, you really only have two choices: you can hope that it succeeds, or hope that it fails.


Spending bill? hmmm I thought it was a Stimulus Bill, that's what the proponents like to call it anyway. However spending bill is much more accurate. Funny how changing the name of something attempts to make it correct.

[Trigg]

do you WANT the stimulus bill to succeed or DON'T you?

simple question.... show some guts and answer it.

I want the unemployment rate to go down.

I want the dipshits in government to stop spending money like drunken sailors, and I include BOTH parties in that.

I've answered your "question" in many many different threads. Yes, it would be nice if this works.

However, since the last 3 did nothing, I'm not holding my breath.

[moderate democrat]

I want the unemployment rate to go down.

I want the dipshits in government to stop spending money like drunken sailors, and I include BOTH parties in that.

I've answered your "question" in many many different threads. Yes, it would be nice if this works.

However, since the last 3 did nothing, I'm not holding my breath.

which is different than wanting it to fail, which is what many republicans on here and elsewhere, are wanting it to do.

[Kathianne]

Why are the democrats out to destroy the country that we've known and loved for well over 200 years? Why the desire to turn it into a weak sister copy of failed states?

I hope we can survive the next 4-8 years, but am very skeptical. Why? We don't have money for the games they are play, be it Pelosi or Specter. Bush started this, but the Democrats have pushed it to a whole new level and they are not done yet.

[Yurt]

which is different than wanting it to fail, which is what many republicans on here and elsewhere, are wanting it to do.

yeah right, you claimed i wanted it to fail then i showed you lied as you admitted earlier i did not want it to fail.

link up or recant that "many" republicans want it to fail.

[Yurt]

Why are the democrats out to destroy the country that we've known and loved for well over 200 years? Why the desire to turn it into a weak sister copy of failed states?

I hope we can survive the next 4-8 years, but am very skeptical. Why? We don't have money for the games they are play, be it Pelosi or Specter. Bush started this, but the Democrats have pushed it to a whole new level and they are not done yet.

what is disturbing is that the same poster who used to cry foul when people questioned his patriotism regarding iraq now runs out and screams everybody who disagrees with the bill is unpatriotic.

party over country, unfortunately.

[Immanuel]

Why are the democrats out to destroy the country that we've known and loved for well over 200 years?

I had no idea you were THAT old!

I've only known and loved it for 48 years come May.

Immie

PS Kathianne, I can self ban myself from being so mean there just to save you the trouble? :coffee:

[moderate democrat]

yeah right, you claimed i wanted it to fail then i showed you lied as you admitted earlier i did not want it to fail.

link up or recant that "many" republicans want it to fail.

do your own research, greg....

Rush and RSR, your "intimate friend" are on record as wanting it to fail... One can only assume, given your "close connection" that you would feel the same way from the "bottom" of your heart...

and any differences of opinion are nothing that a daub of KY wouldn't take care of.

[Kathianne]

I had no idea you were THAT old!

I've only known and loved it for 48 years come May.

Immie

PS Kathianne, I can self ban myself from being so mean there just to save you the trouble? :coffee:

:laugh2: Go ahead Immie, pull the plug!

I just had to give back a little of the crap he's been slinging. ;)

[Yurt]

do your own research, greg....

Rush and RSR, your "intimate friend" are on record as wanting it to fail... One can only assume, given your "close connection" that you would feel the same way from the "bottom" of your heart...

and any differences of opinion are nothing that a daub of KY wouldn't take care of.

you're proven liar...your words words convict you....here ou say i don't want it to fail when i answered you saying i did not want it to fail:


that single sentiment highlights the difference between you and your "intimate friend", RSR... He does NOT want the stimulus bill to save the economy. He wants it to fail because he does not care for the United States of America unless his party can run the whole show.

and really, you can stop the homo closet talk, we all know you're gay and projecting, why not stick to debates "new" guy....so funny a "new" guy knew i had jewish heritage...

:lol:

and no surprise you can't back up any of your other lies....(yawn)

[moderate democrat]

you're proven liar...your words words convict you....here ou say i don't want it to fail when i answered you saying i did not want it to fail:



and really, you can stop the homo closet talk, we all know you're gay and projecting, why not stick to debates "new" guy....so funny a "new" guy knew i had jewish heritage...

:lol:

and no surprise you can't back up any of your other lies....(yawn)


the fact that you appeared to have a sense of patriotism in ONE post, does not change the fact that you really DON'T care if Obama's stimulus plan goes down to defeat, greg... and I am not a homo at all. I have a lovely wife... and a great life with her... we'll be retiring soon, whereas you have still got to work through your gayness and your minimal success as an attorney this late in life... I mean, you're nearly 50 years old, and only finally getting a handful of clients on your own... methinks you are spending entirely too much time on this internet message board sucking up to your "dear friend" RSR and entirely too little earning a proper living for your family. Perhaps I have read you all wrong, but all signs point to an accurate assessment. sorry.

[Yurt]

(yawn)

your lies really are boring...i don't want it to fail in one post but now you twist my words to say i don't care...you offer no proof, not a single post.

seriously, if all you are going to do is make stuff up and spread conjecture, why bother debating policy? you want iraq to fail given your logic. everyone tells you that but you contineu this idiocy and personal insults to me. your obsession regarding myself and my private life need to stop.

why don't tell everyone (in the cage of course) how you knew i had jewish background.

and knock off the personal insults and stick to debates....got it, good.

[red states rule]

Why are the democrats out to destroy the country that we've known and loved for well over 200 years? Why the desire to turn it into a weak sister copy of failed states?

I hope we can survive the next 4-8 years, but am very skeptical. Why? We don't have money for the games they are play, be it Pelosi or Specter. Bush started this, but the Democrats have pushed it to a whole new level and they are not done yet.

The "mess" started about two years ago, right about when the Dems took over Congress. They added to what Pres Bush asked for - but Pres Bush was wrong to use government money to bailout people and companies

President Barack Obama's senior White House adviser says on Sunday, Americans will soon see positive effects of the massive economic stimulus plan passed last week by Congress

Does he mean the 'positive effects' of a $13 dollar increase in our paychecks by June? Or is he referring to the $8 dollars later on?

Bet those 95% of Americans who were promises tax cuts by Obama are just giddy right now

Wonder how Nancy's mouse is feeling?

[red states rule]

what is disturbing is that the same poster who used to cry foul when people questioned his patriotism regarding iraq now runs out and screams everybody who disagrees with the bill is unpatriotic.

party over country, unfortunately.

Yurt, this is so blatant a difference between the liberl/conservative ideas.

If you let me keep more of my own money, then I can help my family, and neighbors

Once you tap me out, there won't be anything left. The attitudes will be "let the government take care of them"

Which is what liberals wanted in the first place.

[bullypulpit]

According to news reports, each worker will get a $400 tax credit ($800 for families) thanks to the mega pork bill

That is a little over $1 per day. How will that jolt the economy?

I remember well what the Dems were saying about the Bush tax cuts in 2001

"In fact, if you add it up, the average family would get about enough money to buy one extra Diet Coke a day. About 62 cents in change. Let me tell you: that’s not the kind of change I’m working for". -Al Gore on Bush Tax Cuts.

Gosh Red, wasn't it the Republicans who insisted on their panacea of tax-cuts be a part of the stimulus package, then voted against it?

And don't forget about the multiplier effect of the government spending in the bill. Oh wait...Because your grasp on economic theory is tenuous at the best of times, you just can't get you head around that concept. Let me provide this graphic representation:

<center><img src=http://images2.dailykos.com/images/user/363/Depression_GDP_output_1.gif></center>

You'll notice that the only downturn was when the so-called fiscal conservatives of the time forced cuts in New Deal Programs.

[red states rule]

Given that gas has gone up 50 cents a gallon since the election, Obama's tax cut that will put $13/week in my check it is already spent.

Tax cuts have increased revenues everytime it is done. It is the ever increasing government spending that causes deficits BP

As I posted before

When the Dems allow the Bush tax cuts to expire those who pay taxes, in the lowest bracket, and those with kids will be hit the hardest. Those in the bottom tax bracket will see a 50% tax increase, in their tax rate.

The five income tax brackets to 15, 28, 31, 36 and 39.6 percent.

Add to that the fact that the child tax credit which has been $1,000 will be cut to $500

When the cuts expire it will add approx. $1,900 to the tax bill of a family of four with an annual income of $60,000

[bullypulpit]

Given that gas has gone up 50 cents a gallon since the election, Obama's tax cut that will put $13/week in my check it is already spent.

Tax cuts have increased revenues everytime it is done. It is the ever increasing government spending that causes deficits BP

As I posted before

When the Dems allow the Bush tax cuts to expire those who pay taxes, in the lowest bracket, and those with kids will be hit the hardest. Those in the bottom tax bracket will see a 50% tax increase, in their tax rate.

The five income tax brackets to 15, 28, 31, 36 and 39.6 percent.

Add to that the fact that the child tax credit which has been $1,000 will be cut to $500

When the cuts expire it will add approx. $1,900 to the tax bill of a family of four with an annual income of $60,000

Pwned!

<blockquote>Studies by the Congressional Budget Office, the Joint Committee on Taxation, and the Administration itself show that <b>tax cuts do not come anywhere close to paying for themselves over the long term</b>. CBO and Joint Tax Committee studies find that, if financed by government borrowing, <b>tax cuts are more likely to harm than to help the economy over the long run</b>, and consequently would cost more than conventional estimates indicate, rather than less. Moreover, in its recent “dynamic analysis” of the impact of making the President’s tax cuts permanent, the Treasury Department reported that even under favorable assumptions, extending the tax cuts would have only a small effect on economic output. That small positive economic impact would offset no more than 10 percent of the tax cuts’ cost. - <a href=http://www.cbpp.org/3-8-06tax.htm>Center on Budget and Policy Priorities</a> (<i>emphasis mine</i>)</blockquote>

So, ya see Red, the myth of Reaganomics is, and always has been, a myth. Trickle down economics is the GOP pissing on the backs of Americans and telling us that the warm feeling trickling down our backs is prosperity.

[red states rule]

Pwned!

<blockquote>Studies by the Congressional Budget Office, the Joint Committee on Taxation, and the Administration itself show that <b>tax cuts do not come anywhere close to paying for themselves over the long term</b>. CBO and Joint Tax Committee studies find that, if financed by government borrowing, <b>tax cuts are more likely to harm than to help the economy over the long run</b>, and consequently would cost more than conventional estimates indicate, rather than less. Moreover, in its recent “dynamic analysis” of the impact of making the President’s tax cuts permanent, the Treasury Department reported that even under favorable assumptions, extending the tax cuts would have only a small effect on economic output. That small positive economic impact would offset no more than 10 percent of the tax cuts’ cost. - <a href=>Center on Budget and Policy Priorities</a> (<i>emphasis mine</i>)</blockquote>

So, ya see Red, the myth of Reaganomics is, and always has been, a myth. Trickle down economics is the GOP pissing on the backs of Americans and telling us that the warm feeling trickling down our backs is prosperity.


BP it is a FACT revenues in the eight years of Pres Reagan DOUBLED to over $1 trillion annually

Under Pres Bush, the government set revenue RECORDS

When taxes are cut (not tax credits like Obama is giving) revenues INCREASE

Currently the top 1% of earners are paying 40% of all Federal income taxes

Meanwhile, the bottom 50% pay less then 3%

[red states rule]

BTW BP, here a numbers on the "poor" that will get bigger handouts thanks to the mega pork bill


snip

The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:

Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.

Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.

Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.

The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)

Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.

Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.

Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.

Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.

As a group, America's poor are far from being chronically undernourished. The average consumption of protein, vitamins, and minerals is virtually the same for poor and middle-class children and, in most cases, is well above recommended norms. Poor children actually consume more meat than do higher-income children and have average protein intakes 100 percent above recommended levels. Most poor children today are, in fact, supernourished and grow up to be, on average, one inch taller and 10 pounds heavier that the GIs who stormed the beaches of Normandy in World War II.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm

[red states rule]

the fact that you appeared to have a sense of patriotism in ONE post, does not change the fact that you really DON'T care if Obama's stimulus plan goes down to defeat, greg... and I am not a homo at all. I have a lovely wife... and a great life with her... we'll be retiring soon, whereas you have still got to work through your gayness and your minimal success as an attorney this late in life... I mean, you're nearly 50 years old, and only finally getting a handful of clients on your own... methinks you are spending entirely too much time on this internet message board sucking up to your "dear friend" RSR and entirely too little earning a proper living for your family. Perhaps I have read you all wrong, but all signs point to an accurate assessment. sorry.

So is Joe the human gaffe machine being unpatriotic? he says even if the Obama administration gets it all right, there is a 30% chance they will get it wrong


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[moderate democrat]

Biden certainly does not hope for the plan's failure, as you and Rush do.

[red states rule]

Biden certainly does not hope for the plan's failure, as you and Rush do.

yea, he says there is a 30% chance of failure :laugh2:

[moderate democrat]

yea, he says there is a 30% chance of failure :laugh2:

He says that the plan MAY not work... that is a far cry from YOUR position which is hoping that the plan does NOT work.

party over country for you...all the time.

[red states rule]

He says that the plan MAY not work... that is a far cry from YOUR position which is hoping that the plan does NOT work.

party over country for you...all the time.

When was the last time pork, increased welfare handouts, and money to political supports ever jolted the economy?

Your problem is, no matter what the Dems do, you will support it while wearing your DNC approved blinders

6 months from now, you will be passing the buck to people like me for the Dems failure - and not Obama, Reid, and Pelosi

Again, I I always hope liberalism fails - nothing different here Virgil

[bullypulpit]

yea, he says there is a 30% chance of failure :laugh2:

Why do you hate America, Red?

[red states rule]

Why do you hate America, Red?

Those are Bidens words BP - not mine

When libs have to ask a question like that, I know they are on the run, and are losing the argument

[bullypulpit]

BP it is a FACT revenues in the eight years of Pres Reagan DOUBLED to over $1 trillion annually

Under Pres Bush, the government set revenue RECORDS

When taxes are cut (not tax credits like Obama is giving) revenues INCREASE

Currently the top 1% of earners are paying 40% of all Federal income taxes

Meanwhile, the bottom 50% pay less then 3%

As usual, Red, your FACTS have everything to do with GOP talking points and nothing to do with reality.

<blockquote>When the large tax cuts enacted in 1981 were being debated, many of the adherents of those tax cuts contended the tax cuts would more than pay for themselves. Conversely, when marginal tax rates on high-income individuals were raised in 1990 and especially in 1993, the claim was made that these tax increases would damage the economy and that income tax receipts consequently would grow more slowly in the 1990s than in the 1980s. <b>In fact, income tax revenues hardly grew at all in the 1980s (after adjustment for inflation and increases in the size of the working-age population) and grew 13 times faster in the 1990s than in the 1980s</b>. - <a href=http://www.cbpp.org/3-3-03tax.htm>Center on Budget and Policy Priorities</a></blockquote>

Here is a graphic representation:

<center><img src=http://www.cbpp.org/3-3-03tax-f2.jpg></center>

Sorry Red, reality trumps GOP talking points...every time.

<center><img src= http://www.thevancouverite.com/pictures/nelson-muntz.gif></center>
<center><h1>HA! HA!</h1></center>

[Yurt]

Why do you hate America, Red?

lol, so you admit since they were biden's words that biden hates america :poke:

:lame2:

[red states rule]

As usual, Red, your FACTS have everything to do with GOP talking points and nothing to do with reality.

<blockquote>When the large tax cuts enacted in 1981 were being debated, many of the adherents of those tax cuts contended the tax cuts would more than pay for themselves. Conversely, when marginal tax rates on high-income individuals were raised in 1990 and especially in 1993, the claim was made that these tax increases would damage the economy and that income tax receipts consequently would grow more slowly in the 1990s than in the 1980s. <b>In fact, income tax revenues hardly grew at all in the 1980s (after adjustment for inflation and increases in the size of the working-age population) and grew 13 times faster in the 1990s than in the 1980s</b>. - <a href=http://www.cbpp.org/3-3-03tax.htm>Center on Budget and Policy Priorities</a></blockquote>

Sorry Red, reality trumps GOP talking points...every time.

Yes BP reality trumps all - even your crap


snip

HOW DID THE REAGAN TAX CUTS AFFECT THE U.S. TREASURY?

Many critics of reducing taxes claim that the Reagan tax cuts drained the U.S. Treasury. The reality is that federal revenues increased significantly between 1980 and 1990:

Total federal revenues doubled from just over $517 billion in 1980 to more than $1 trillion in 1990. In constant inflation-adjusted dollars, this was a 28 percent increase in revenue.3

As a percentage of the gross domestic product (GDP), federal revenues declined only slightly from 18.9 percent in 1980 to 18 percent in 1990.4

Revenues from individual income taxes climbed from just over $244 billion in 1980 to nearly $467 billion in 1990.5 In inflation-adjusted dollars, this amounts to a 25 percent increase.

HOW DID REAGAN'S POLICIES AFFECT FEDERAL SPENDING?

Although critics continue to focus on President Reagan's budget "cuts," federal spending rose significantly during the 1980s:

Federal spending more than doubled, growing from almost $591 billion in 1980 to $1.25 trillion in 1990. In constant inflation-adjusted dollars, this was an increase of 35.8 percent.6

As a percentage of GDP, federal expenditures grew slightly from 21.6 percent in 1980 to 21.8 percent in 1990.7

Contrary to popular myth, while inflation-adjusted defense spending increased by 50 percent between 1980 and 1989, it was curtailed when the Cold War ended and fell by 15 percent between 1989 and 1993. However, means-tested entitlements, which do not include Social Security or Medicare, rose by over 102 percent between 1980 and 1993, and they have continued climbing ever since.8

http://www.heritage.org/research/taxes/bg1414.cfm

[bullypulpit]

Yes BP reality trumps all - even your crap


snip

HOW DID THE REAGAN TAX CUTS AFFECT THE U.S. TREASURY?

Many critics of reducing taxes claim that the Reagan tax cuts drained the U.S. Treasury. The reality is that federal revenues increased significantly between 1980 and 1990:

Total federal revenues doubled from just over $517 billion in 1980 to more than $1 trillion in 1990. In constant inflation-adjusted dollars, this was a 28 percent increase in revenue.3

As a percentage of the gross domestic product (GDP), federal revenues declined only slightly from 18.9 percent in 1980 to 18 percent in 1990.4

Revenues from individual income taxes climbed from just over $244 billion in 1980 to nearly $467 billion in 1990.5 In inflation-adjusted dollars, this amounts to a 25 percent increase.

HOW DID REAGAN'S POLICIES AFFECT FEDERAL SPENDING?

Although critics continue to focus on President Reagan's budget "cuts," federal spending rose significantly during the 1980s:

Federal spending more than doubled, growing from almost $591 billion in 1980 to $1.25 trillion in 1990. In constant inflation-adjusted dollars, this was an increase of 35.8 percent.6

As a percentage of GDP, federal expenditures grew slightly from 21.6 percent in 1980 to 21.8 percent in 1990.7

Contrary to popular myth, while inflation-adjusted defense spending increased by 50 percent between 1980 and 1989, it was curtailed when the Cold War ended and fell by 15 percent between 1989 and 1993. However, means-tested entitlements, which do not include Social Security or Medicare, rose by over 102 percent between 1980 and 1993, and they have continued climbing ever since.8

http://www.heritage.org/research/taxes/bg1414.cfm

Red, have you ever had an original thought in your life? Can you find any source you can cut-and-paste from that is not a right wing echo-chamber?

[red states rule]

Red, have you ever had an original thought in your life? Can you find any source you can cut-and-paste from that is not a right wing echo-chamber?

BP, the numbers are based on fact. Like, CBO numbers, and the US Treasury

Sorry if facts bother you, but tax cuts do spur econmic activity

To bad, even the CBO says Obama's mega pork bill will do more harm then good. We will all see that soon enough

But you and other libs will pass the buck to Pres Bush

Since Obama won the election, the Dow is down more then 2000 points, and tanking again this morning

Hope you enjoy the change son

[bullypulpit]

BP, the numbers are based on fact. Like, CBO numbers, and the US Treasury

Sorry if facts bother you, but tax cuts do spur econmic activity

To bad, even the CBO says Obama's mega pork bill will do more harm then good. We will all see that soon enough

But you and other libs will pass the buck to Pres Bush

Since Obama won the election, the Dow is down more then 2000 points, and tanking again this morning

Hope you enjoy the change son

Red, if you'd bothered to follow the links, you see that the figures I cited came from the CBO.

[MtnBiker]

So is Joe the human gaffe machine being unpatriotic? he says even if the Obama administration gets it all right, there is a 30% chance they will get it wrong


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30% chance of getting it wrong? See, that is Joe's blunder, he just needs to call it something else, such as "30% chance of under performing results". See that would be better, just making a change it what you call something makes it alright.

[bullypulpit]

30% chance of getting it wrong? See, that is Joe's blunder, he just needs to call it something else, such as "30% chance of under performing results". See that would be better, just making a change it what you call something makes it alright.

And a 70% chance of success. I'll take those odds any day. Why do you hate America?

[MtnBiker]

And a 70% chance of success. I'll take those odds any day. Why do you hate America?

Show me exactly where I have expressed hatered for America.

I was simply suggesting that Joe call his getting it wrong by something else. Calling one thing something else could make it more acceptable, so some think.

[Kathianne]

I think Joe has his percentages wrong.

[Yurt]

And a 70% chance of success. I'll take those odds any day. Why do you hate America?


http://www.binkerville.com/yard/zzzz_trans.gif


http://pantsinacan.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/broken_record.jpg

[bullypulpit]

http://www.binkerville.com/yard/zzzz_trans.gif


http://pantsinacan.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/broken_record.jpg

Yeah, that's about the best you all can do.

[Yurt]

Yeah, that's about the best you all can do.

why do you hate america?

[glockmail]

why do you hate america?
All liberals hate America.

[Kathianne]

All liberals hate America.

Do you really think that? I don't think BP does, though lately... j/k. MD, yea. JS, yea, most? No.

[Immanuel]

I think Joe has his percentages wrong.

Of course he did... he pulled them out of his ass. What would you expect?

Immie

[glockmail]

Do you really think that? I don't think BP does, though lately... j/k. MD, yea. JS, yea, most? No.Liberalism is the first step to socialism, and the growth of the federal government is well beyond the Founders intent. So yes, they hate America as it was founded.

[bullypulpit]

All liberals hate America.

Damn...What rock did you crawl out from under?

[glockmail]

Damn...What rock did you crawl out from under?
Nice to see you too. :laugh2:

[bullypulpit]

Liberalism is the first step to socialism, and the growth of the federal government is well beyond the Founders intent. So yes, they hate America as it was founded.

Nay...Nay...Mooseface! You are wrong again, as ever. And no, I don't think most here hate America, liberal OR conservative.

I dredged that little "Why do you hate America?" jewel from the depths of the right wing's recent past.

[glockmail]

Nay...Nay...Mooseface! You are wrong again, as ever. And no, I don't think most here hate America, liberal OR conservative.

I dredged that little "Why do you hate America?" jewel from the depths of the right wing's recent past.
You can opine all you want, but the logic speaks otherwise. Liberals hate the Constitution, therefore, America. *shrug*

[bullypulpit]

You can opine all you want, but the logic speaks otherwise. Liberals hate the Constitution, therefore, America. *shrug*

And by just what pretzel logic do you arrive at that conclusion? What evidence do you have to support your assertion that "Liberals hate the Constitution...", and do provide links.

:coffee:

[red states rule]

Red, if you'd bothered to follow the links, you see that the figures I cited came from the CBO.

Then why do you support Obama's mega pork bill when it does more harm then good?


CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul

President Obama's economic recovery package will actually hurt the economy more in the long run than if he were to do nothing, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday.

CBO, the official scorekeepers for legislation, said the House and Senate bills will help in the short term but result in so much government debt that within a few years they would crowd out private investment, actually leading to a lower Gross Domestic Product over the next 10 years than if the government had done nothing.

CBO estimates that by 2019 the Senate legislation would reduce GDP by 0.1 percent to 0.3 percent on net. [The House bill] would have similar long-run effects, CBO said in a letter to Sen. Judd Gregg, New Hampshire Republican, who was tapped by Mr. Obama on Tuesday to be Commerce Secretary

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/feb/04/cbo-obama-stimulus-harmful-over-long-haul/

[red states rule]

And a 70% chance of success. I'll take those odds any day. Why do you hate America?

Yep, libs are indeed rolling to dice with trillions of taxpayer money, and betting the economic future of America

[red states rule]

Obama signs the mega pork bill, and the Dow drops another 297 points.

Here comes the change folks

[moderate democrat]

elmer:

it's the law of the land now.... don't you hope it succeeds in helping our economy recover?:lol:

[red states rule]

elmer:

it's the law of the land now.... don't you hope it succeeds in helping our economy recover?:lol:

and Virgil, since your messiah won the election, the Dow is down about 2,500 points, and Dems have added trillions to the national debt

Obama, Reid, and Pelosi are on a roll

[moderate democrat]

and Virgil, since your messiah won the election, the Dow is down about 2,500 points, and Dems have added trillions to the national debt

Obama, Reid, and Pelosi are on a roll

elmer....my name is not virgil...

answer the question: do you want the new law aimed at helping our economy recover to work or do you want it to fail?

[red states rule]

elmer....my name is not virgil...

answer the question: do you want the new law aimed at helping our economy recover to work or do you want it to fail?

Yes I would, but it would belike staying up on Christmas Eve waiting for Santa to deliver your presents

But Dems can issue bumber stickers that give them a pass when the economy tanks even more

"Don't Blame Me - I did Not Read The Stimulus Bill"

[glockmail]

And by just what pretzel logic do you arrive at that conclusion? What evidence do you have to support your assertion that "Liberals hate the Constitution...", and do provide links.

:coffee: Bully you are forever the troll.

SCOTUS Justice Stevens, Liberal:
"The Court would have us believe that over 200 years ago, the Framers made a choice to limit the tools available to elected officials wishing to regulate civilian uses of weapons.... I could not possibly conclude that the Framers made such a choice."

SCOTUS Justice Breyer, Liberal:
"there simply is no untouchable constitutional right guaranteed by the Second Amendment to keep loaded handguns in the house in crime-ridden urban areas."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller#Dissenting_opinions

[red states rule]

I'm not poor or rich, but I did better than $30.00 with the Bush cuts. I'd think that most people did.

The five income tax brackets were reduced form 15, 28, 31, 36 & 39.6% to 10, 25, 28, 33 & 35%.

The child tax credit was increased from $500 to $1,000.

After the Dems. allow them to expire, these will be reversed.

[bullypulpit]

and Virgil, since your messiah won the election, the Dow is down about 2,500 points, and Dems have added trillions to the national debt

Obama, Reid, and Pelosi are on a roll

Red, where were you when Bush was piling debt onto the backs of future generations at a break-neck pace?

[PostmodernProphet]

you know, if you boys would do the rest of us a favor and put all your "you're mfm", "No, I'm not" posts in a single thread it would make it a lot easier for the rest of us to read the boards......I never know whether it's a waste of time to open a new post or not.......

[Kathianne]

you know, if you boys would do the rest of us a favor and put all your "you're mfm", "No, I'm not" posts in a single thread it would make it a lot easier for the rest of us to read the boards......I never know whether it's a waste of time to open a new post or not.......

I agree, but seems it won't happen.

[red states rule]

Red, where were you when Bush was piling debt onto the backs of future generations at a break-neck pace?

I was here speaking out about the spending - and so were you. But now that Obama and the Dems are the ones doing the spending, all is well with you

If Pres Bush's spending (along with the Dems Congress) got us in this mess, how is more spending going to get us out of it?

[glockmail]

Red, where were you when Bush was piling debt onto the backs of future generations at a break-neck pace?Post 153 Bully- don't change the subject. :slap:

[moderate democrat]

Post 153 Bully- don't change the subject. :slap:

just because Justices Stevens and Breyer interpret the constitution DIFFERENTLY than YOU do, does not mean that they HATE it. :slap:

[glockmail]

just because Justices Stevens and Breyer interpret the constitution DIFFERENTLY than YOU do, does not mean that they HATE it. :slap:Those ain't interpretations, but usurpations, Dummy.

[moderate democrat]

Those ain't interpretations, but usurpations, Dummy.


that's YOUR interpretation. Many constitutional scholars would disagree with it.

and the "dummy" is certainly gratuitious and unnecessary, doncha think? :poke:

[glockmail]

that's YOUR interpretation. Many constitutional scholars would disagree with it.

..... Name one, Dummy.:poke:

[red states rule]

$33 per month to 'stimulate' the economy?

Where is this guy getting his economic advice anyway?

Doesn't he do the math before he starts trying to sell this stupid stuff?

Heck, he needs to go back to telling people to air up their tires

[Mugged Liberal]

you know, if you boys would do the rest of us a favor and put all your "you're mfm", "No, I'm not" posts in a single thread it would make it a lot easier for the rest of us to read the boards......I never know whether it's a waste of time to open a new post or not.......

Hallelujah and Amen