Fair Tax Calculator

[DragonStryk72]

Wet over to the FairTax site in my sig line, and found out that the site now boasts a calculator that actually projects just how much you would make currently vs. using the FairTax instead. It's pretty cool, here's the link:

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=calculator

[DannyR]

Thanks. But I doubt my result is what you wanted to see. Just supports what I've figured before. Fairtax generally gives upper class a nice big tax break while increasing taxes on the middle class. Maybe my circumstances aren't normal, but I've never seen any result from this or previous estimates that ever benefited me.

Love how the calculator uses MORE/MORE/LESS with every result, even negative. *lol* No bias there.



With the Fair Tax, you get:
-7.56% MORE
spendable income.
-$3,944.00 MORE
purchasing power.
-$3,674.91 LESS
federal taxes

Just curious, but if you are a Fairtax supporter, can you explain one thing to me? How is the Fairtax not going to kill new home sales? I can't see any buyer eager to immediately have their new house depreciate 23% the moment they buy it. Seems to me the fairtax would absolutely kill the housing market. Lenders will rarely loan 23% over the purchase price to cover the tax. And thats far more than most people usually have to cover a down payment, meaning if they do have money to cover the tax, they are still probably taking a 100% mortgage, again risky for lenders.

Now I know in the book they say new homes would be much cheaper, thus matching the price of existing homes. But that still doesn't change the math that once that new home is bought, its immediately worth 23% less money than the buyer spent to obtain it and you likely can't recoup that cost by charging the tax price to someone else.

[5stringJeff]

I'd support the Fair Tax if it didn't send out welfare-like monthly checks every month. I know, I know, it's a pre-rebate. Whatever. Call it what you will, it's a ridiculous proposition, and makes people more reliant on the government, not less. Instead of pre-rebates, either exclude food purchases or lower the tax rate.

[Hobbit]

I'd support the Fair Tax if it didn't send out welfare-like monthly checks every month. I know, I know, it's a pre-rebate. Whatever. Call it what you will, it's a ridiculous proposition, and makes people more reliant on the government, not less. Instead of pre-rebates, either exclude food purchases or lower the tax rate.

It's the only way to un-tax the poor. First off, EVERYBODY gets the same check. It's not dependent on income, and thus cannot be used to by votes. Lowering the rate doesn't un-tax the poor and if you remove the tax from certain items, it creates a government board which determines who's on the tax exempt list, which will then lead to lobbyists trying to get stuff put on the list.

As far as home sales, you're thinking about it at the wrong angle. Just because there's no tax on a 'used' home doesn't mean the new one depreciates 23% immediately. That tax is part of the initial cost of acquiring the home, just like the building permits and other such taxes on homes now. If you sell your home, all of those fees are factored into the price you sell for. Also, there's supply and demand at work here. If you paid $100,000 for your home, including tax, it's because the price the market sees fit to pay for that house is about $100,000. As it stands, about 22%+ of that is taxes, anyway. They're just hidden.

Sure, there'll be somebody who comes up and says, "Yeah, you paid $100,000 for that house, but $23,000 was taxes, so I'll only give you $77,000 for it." That guy's a jerk. Tell him to eff off. Your asking price is $100,000. Somebody will pay it.

[5stringJeff]

It's the only way to un-tax the poor. First off, EVERYBODY gets the same check. It's not dependent on income, and thus cannot be used to by votes. Lowering the rate doesn't un-tax the poor and if you remove the tax from certain items, it creates a government board which determines who's on the tax exempt list, which will then lead to lobbyists trying to get stuff put on the list.

Rebate checks aren't the only way to untax the poor. In WA, food purchased for off-site consumption is exempt from sales tax, specifically for that purpose. It doesn't take a brigade of bureaucrats to figure out how to implement that - it's already being done.

And do you really think that the government won't have to create and man a huge new agency just to deal with the rebate check distribution? It would essentially be the current income tax rebate check situation multiplied by 12. That creates more administrative costs. The best way to avoid this is to exempt food (which is already being done by many states) and lower the tax rate.

[DragonStryk72]

Rebate checks aren't the only way to untax the poor. In WA, food purchased for off-site consumption is exempt from sales tax, specifically for that purpose. It doesn't take a brigade of bureaucrats to figure out how to implement that - it's already being done.

And do you really think that the government won't have to create and man a huge new agency just to deal with the rebate check distribution? It would essentially be the current income tax rebate check situation multiplied by 12. That creates more administrative costs. The best way to avoid this is to exempt food (which is already being done by many states) and lower the tax rate.

Okay, but it's not like that part can't be modified. Actually, it wouldn't even need to be maintained by the federal government, you could run it through State government, aside from which, all you would need is to do it the same way the Alaska handles paying their people, it actually requires very little bureaucracy.

Next of course, since you don't have the massive branches of the IRS needed to maintain the 40k+ page tax system that is currently in place (which is worse than any one single, easily put on direct deposit system you care to name), you also don't have the complications, costly audits, and other idiotic points to contend with that are in the current system. Is it perfect? And I would never attempt to tell you it is, that would be a lie, a bad lie, but tossing the baby out with the bath water isn't the solution either.

[DragonStryk72]

Thanks. But I doubt my result is what you wanted to see. Just supports what I've figured before. Fairtax generally gives upper class a nice big tax break while increasing taxes on the middle class. Maybe my circumstances aren't normal, but I've never seen any result from this or previous estimates that ever benefited me.

Love how the calculator uses MORE/MORE/LESS with every result, even negative. *lol* No bias there.



With the Fair Tax, you get:
-7.56% MORE
spendable income.
-$3,944.00 MORE
purchasing power.
-$3,674.91 LESS
federal taxes

Just curious, but if you are a Fairtax supporter, can you explain one thing to me? How is the Fairtax not going to kill new home sales? I can't see any buyer eager to immediately have their new house depreciate 23% the moment they buy it. Seems to me the fairtax would absolutely kill the housing market. Lenders will rarely loan 23% over the purchase price to cover the tax. And thats far more than most people usually have to cover a down payment, meaning if they do have money to cover the tax, they are still probably taking a 100% mortgage, again risky for lenders.

Now I know in the book they say new homes would be much cheaper, thus matching the price of existing homes. But that still doesn't change the math that once that new home is bought, its immediately worth 23% less money than the buyer spent to obtain it and you likely can't recoup that cost by charging the tax price to someone else.

Okay, Danny, here's a question: What stats did you type in to get that? I mean, seriously, I've been playing with it for ten minutes now using middle class wages, and I still can't get it to show negative growth.

[5stringJeff]

Okay, but it's not like that part can't be modified. Actually, it wouldn't even need to be maintained by the federal government, you could run it through State government, aside from which, all you would need is to do it the same way the Alaska handles paying their people, it actually requires very little bureaucracy.

Next of course, since you don't have the massive branches of the IRS needed to maintain the 40k+ page tax system that is currently in place (which is worse than any one single, easily put on direct deposit system you care to name), you also don't have the complications, costly audits, and other idiotic points to contend with that are in the current system. Is it perfect? And I would never attempt to tell you it is, that would be a lie, a bad lie, but tossing the baby out with the bath water isn't the solution either.

Don't get me wrong - I'm no fan of the current tax system. I vacillate between two solutions: a flat tax, at 15% of all income above the poverty level for your family size (no deductions), or a national sales tax (like the FairTax), with food for offsite consumption exempted, at about 15%.

[Hobbit]

Don't get me wrong - I'm no fan of the current tax system. I vacillate between two solutions: a flat tax, at 15% of all income above the poverty level for your family size (no deductions), or a national sales tax (like the FairTax), with food for offsite consumption exempted, at about 15%.

I'm serious. If you start untaxing products...any products, the bureaucracy will come. First, you'll have people (rightly) complaining that not all food should be untaxed as a necessity. Steaks, lobster tails, caviar, and truffles are all things we can agree are luxuries, not necessities. But then, where's the line? Well, some politician will come up with a plan that he'll get passed through a campaign of wealth envy that will determine what's a luxury and what's a necessity. At first, it will seem to work. Staples like bread, ground beef, basic chicken products, eggs, milk, etc. will be untaxed, along with things like medicine. Then, the lobbyists will step in, and the committee to determine what should be untaxed as a necessity will grow into yet another bloated organization with too much power and budget.

Instead, you untax spending up to the poverty level for EVERYBODY. Every person gets the same check, so you can't fuel the wealth envy or demagogue it without a HUGE change to the new tax code. Those who make less than the poverty level will actually be receiving a small amount of welfare (which I'm not against). There will be no arguing over what is or is not a necessity. If you're truly spending only on necessities, then the prebate will probably more than pay for the tax on what you bought. If not, then you'll still be getting untaxed on some necessity spending, but you won't get the whole thing refunded because you're spending too much.

Lastly, the bureaucracy is already in place to send a check to every American household. We could even shrink it since every check will have only one of about 4 numbers on it (single, couple, couple with 1 child, couple with 2+ children).

[April15]

Thanks. But I doubt my result is what you wanted to see. Just supports what I've figured before. Fairtax generally gives upper class a nice big tax break while increasing taxes on the middle class. Maybe my circumstances aren't normal, but I've never seen any result from this or previous estimates that ever benefited me.

Love how the calculator uses MORE/MORE/LESS with every result, even negative. *lol* No bias there.



With the Fair Tax, you get:
-7.56% MORE
spendable income.
-$3,944.00 MORE
purchasing power.
-$3,674.91 LESS
federal taxes

Just curious, but if you are a Fairtax supporter, can you explain one thing to me? How is the Fairtax not going to kill new home sales? I can't see any buyer eager to immediately have their new house depreciate 23% the moment they buy it. Seems to me the fairtax would absolutely kill the housing market. Lenders will rarely loan 23% over the purchase price to cover the tax. And thats far more than most people usually have to cover a down payment, meaning if they do have money to cover the tax, they are still probably taking a 100% mortgage, again risky for lenders.

Now I know in the book they say new homes would be much cheaper, thus matching the price of existing homes. But that still doesn't change the math that once that new home is bought, its immediately worth 23% less money than the buyer spent to obtain it and you likely can't recoup that cost by charging the tax price to someone else.

How did you get it to copy. My results were similar but more extreme. Less money.

[DragonStryk72]

How did you get it to copy. My results were similar but more extreme. Less money.

Okay, seriously, what numbers did you put in? I tried it at 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90k, taking up the entire core of the middle class, and no negs. I even fussed with the settings to check what different percentages do.

[April15]

Okay, seriously, what numbers did you put in? I tried it at 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90k, taking up the entire core of the middle class, and no negs. I even fussed with the settings to check what different percentages do.I entered 55k for income and I pay zero in taxes.

[DragonStryk72]

I entered 55k for income and I pay zero in taxes.

How are you not paying any taxes? Don't you get arrested, fine, and/or jailed for that? I mean, I remember Al Capone getting nailed for that a ways back.

[April15]

How are you not paying any taxes? Don't you get arrested, fine, and/or jailed for that? I mean, I remember Al Capone getting nailed for that a ways back.When you know the rules of the game you become a better player!

[Mr. P]

When you know the rules of the game you become a better player!

At 55K if you ain't paying any tax your a tax cheat, a law breaker.

I bet yer one that says "I didn't pay tax I got $$ back". Right? :laugh2:

[MtnBiker]

When you know the rules of the game you become a better player!

No kidding, just ask Timothy Geithner or Tom Daschle. :rolleyes:

[Hobbit]

I made less than half that and still paid a significant amount in taxes.

[April15]

At 55K if you ain't paying any tax your a tax cheat, a law breaker.

I bet yer one that says "I didn't pay tax I got $$ back". Right? :laugh2:I can't get money unless I had put in an excess.

[April15]

I made less than half that and still paid a significant amount in taxes.Are you self employed? Do you have an entity that holds the money? These two things could change your tax liability.

[Mr. P]

Are you self employed? Do you have an entity that holds the money? These two things could change your tax liability.

Even an S-corp or LLC pays tax..essentially that's the owner.

[Hobbit]

April, I'm calling you out on this one. I don't care who you think you are, if you make 55k a year and don't give almost all of it to charity, you're either a) paying taxes and don't realize it because you aren't counting the taxes yanked out of EVERY paycheck you get b) cheating the system and thus cheating ME out of money you owe or c) you're paying taxes and you know damn well you're paying taxes, but you're lying through your teeth because you hate the FairTax and think you can bamboozle people into opposing it.

[Mr. P]

April, I'm calling you out on this one. I don't care who you think you are, if you make 55k a year and don't give almost all of it to charity, you're either a) paying taxes and don't realize it because you aren't counting the taxes yanked out of EVERY paycheck you get b) cheating the system and thus cheating ME out of money you owe or c) you're paying taxes and you know damn well you're paying taxes, but you're lying through your teeth because you hate the FairTax and think you can bamboozle people into opposing it.

That sums it up.

[April15]

April, I'm calling you out on this one. I don't care who you think you are, if you make 55k a year and don't give almost all of it to charity, you're either a) paying taxes and don't realize it because you aren't counting the taxes yanked out of EVERY paycheck you get b) cheating the system and thus cheating ME out of money you owe or c) you're paying taxes and you know damn well you're paying taxes, but you're lying through your teeth because you hate the FairTax and think you can bamboozle people into opposing it.I am self employed. On a schedule C form I write off just about all my income to business expense of one kind or another. I don't give to charity as I don't have any money to spare.
The tax code lists out what you can deduct from income. If you do not know what you can deduct and send money to the feds for no reason it is not my problem.
And as for the fair tax if you wish to believe it is better be my guest. I don't!

[Hobbit]

I am self employed. On a schedule C form I write off just about all my income to business expense of one kind or another. I don't give to charity as I don't have any money to spare.
The tax code lists out what you can deduct from income. If you do not know what you can deduct and send money to the feds for no reason it is not my problem.
And as for the fair tax if you wish to believe it is better be my guest. I don't!

Then you're calculating it wrong.

First off, you have 55k of reportable money on your tax return. You don't 'make' 55k, because what you make is your profit, which is income minus expenses.

The thing you're ignoring on the FairTax is that you only pay it on RETAIL level items. So long as you buy your business supplies wholesale, they're not taxed under the FairTax.

[Mr. P]

schedule C? so you'r a sole proprietor? Not incorporated?

[Yurt]

april15:

you didn't pay any social security tax?

[DannyR]

Okay, Danny, here's a question: What stats did you type in to get that? I mean, seriously, I've been playing with it for ten minutes now using middle class wages, and I still can't get it to show negative growth.I used my actual income, taxes. I'd rather not post those here.

Again, perhaps I'm not normal. I have a high amount of tax deductions already due to medical costs so perhaps that skews the figures.

But one thing you have to ask... if the calculator generally gives a smaller amount for everyone, then how in the hell is it supposed to generate the same tax revenues we see already with the current system?

[Hobbit]

I used my actual income, taxes. I'd rather not post those here.

Again, perhaps I'm not normal. I have a high amount of tax deductions already due to medical costs so perhaps that skews the figures.

But one thing you have to ask... if the calculator generally gives a smaller amount for everyone, then how in the hell is it supposed to generate the same tax revenues we see already with the current system?

It taxes the consumptions economy rather than income. The consumption economy is bigger, because it taxes illegals, tourists, etc.

I recommend reading both FairTax books. They explain it better than I can (I have them, but I'd rather not post the whole thing here).

[April15]

Then you're calculating it wrong.

First off, you have 55k of reportable money on your tax return. You don't 'make' 55k, because what you make is your profit, which is income minus expenses.

The thing you're ignoring on the FairTax is that you only pay it on RETAIL level items. So long as you buy your business supplies wholesale, they're not taxed under the FairTax.I been running a non profit all these years? The expenses always excceed the income.