Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

[-Cp]

http://www.buffalonews.com/260/story/570428.html



Eighteen and pregnant, Sycloria Williams went to an abortion clinic outside Miami and paid $1,200 for Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique to terminate her 23-week pregnancy.

Three days later, she sat in a reclining chair, medicated to dilate her cervix and otherwise get her ready for the procedure.

Only Renelique didn't arrive in time. According to Williams and the Florida Department of Health, she went into labor and delivered a live baby girl.

What Williams and the Health Department say happened next has shocked people on both sides of the abortion debate: One of the clinic's owners, who has no medical license, cut the infant's umbilical cord. Williams says the woman placed the baby in a plastic biohazard bag and threw it out.

Police recovered the decomposing remains in a cardboard box a week later after getting anonymous tips.

"I don't care what your politics are, what your morals are, this should not be happening in our community," said Tom Pennekamp, a Miami attorney representing Williams in her lawsuit against Renelique (ren-uh-LEEK') and the clinic owners.

The state Board of Medicine is to hear Renelique's case in Tampa on Friday and determine whether to strip his license. The state attorney's homicide division is investigating, though no charges have been filed. Terry Chavez, a spokeswoman with the Miami-Dade County State Attorney's Office, said this week that prosecutors were nearing a decision.

Renelique's attorney, Joseph Harrison, called the allegations at best "misguided and incomplete" in an e-mail to The Associated Press. He didn't provide details.

The case has riled the anti-abortion community, which contends the clinic's actions constitute murder.

"The baby was just treated as a piece of garbage," said Tom Brejcha, president of The Thomas More Society, a law firm that is also representing Williams. "People all over the country are just aghast."

Even those who support abortion rights are concerned about the allegations.

"It really disturbed me," said Joanne Sterner, president of the Broward County chapter of the National Organization for Women, after reviewing the administrative complaint against Renelique. "I know that there are clinics out there like this. And I hope that we can keep (women) from going to these types of clinics."

According to state records, Renelique received his medical training at the State University of Haiti. In 1991, he completed a four-year residency in obstetrics and gynecology at Interfaith Medical Center in New York.

New York records show that Renelique has made at least five medical malpractice payments in the past decade, the circumstances of which were not detailed in the filings.

Several attempts to reach Renelique were unsuccessful. Some of his office numbers were disconnected, no home number could be found and he did not return messages left with his attorney.

Williams struggled with the decision to have an abortion, Pennekamp said. She declined an interview request made through him.

She concluded she didn't have the resources or maturity to raise a child, he said, and went to the Miramar Women's Center on July 17, 2006. Sonograms indicated she was 23 weeks pregnant, according to the Department of Health. She met Renelique at a second clinic two days later.

Renelique gave Williams laminaria, a drug that dilates the cervix, and prescribed three other medications, according to the administrative complaint filed by the Health Department. She was told to go to yet another clinic, A Gyn Diagnostic Center in Hialeah, where the procedure would be performed the next day, on July 20, 2006.

Williams arrived in the morning and was given more medication.

The Department of Health account continues as follows: Just before noon she began to feel ill. The clinic contacted Renelique. Two hours later, he still hadn't shown up. Williams went into labor and delivered the baby.

"She came face to face with a human being," Pennekamp said. "And that changed everything."

The complaint says one of the clinic owners, Belkis Gonzalez came in and cut the umbilical cord with scissors, then placed the baby in a plastic bag, and the bag in a trash can.

Williams' lawsuit offers a cruder account: She says Gonzalez knocked the baby off the recliner chair where she had given birth, onto the floor. The baby's umbilical cord was not clamped, allowing her to bleed out. Gonzalez scooped the baby, placenta and afterbirth into a red plastic biohazard bag and threw it out.

No working telephone number could be found for Gonzalez, and an attorney who has represented the clinic in the past did not return a message.

At 23 weeks, an otherwise healthy fetus would have a slim but legitimate chance of survival. Quadruplets born at 23 weeks last year at The Nebraska Medical Center survived.

An autopsy determined Williams' baby - she named her Shanice - had filled her lungs with air, meaning she had been born alive, according to the Department of Health. The cause of death was listed as extreme prematurity.

The Department of Health believes Renelique committed malpractice by failing to ensure that licensed personnel would be present when Williams was there, among other missteps.

The department wants the Board of Medicine, a separate agency, to permanently revoke Renelique's license, among other penalties. His license is currently restricted, permitting him to only perform abortions when another licensed physician is present and can review his medical records.

Should prosecutors file murder charges, they'd have to prove the baby was born alive, said Robert Batey, a professor of criminal law at Stetson University College of Law in Gulfport. The defense might contend that the child would have died anyway, but most courts would not allow that argument, he said.

"Hastening the death of an individual who is terminally ill is still considered causing the death of that individual," Batey said. "And I think a court would rule similarly in this type of case."

[Little-Acorn]

Nothing particularly controversial about this. There was no abortion.

It's an open-and shut case of Murder One.

[Jeff]

Nothing particularly controversial about this. There was no abortion.

It's an open-and shut case of Murder One.

I agree 100 % but I can't believe they have to determine whether to strip his license or that they have to think about prosecuting .

[Missileman]

Nothing particularly controversial about this. There was no abortion.

It's an open-and shut case of Murder One.

I agree!

[-Cp]

So.. if the baby was still considered young enough to be aborted - why should it be "murder one" just cause they killed it OUTSIDE the womb?

[Jeff]

[QUOTE=-Cp;346582]So.. if the baby was still considered young enough to be aborted - why should it be "murder one" just cause they killed it OUTSIDE the womb?[/QUOTE

I don't believe in abortion at all , except in extreme cases ( Mom's life depends on it or rape ) But the law being the law I guess yea because it was killed outside the womb , but I really think it is murder weather inside the womb or out , and I don't think the age of the fetus (baby) should make a difference either.

[Missileman]

So.. if the baby was still considered young enough to be aborted - why should it be "murder one" just cause they killed it OUTSIDE the womb?

I'm against 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions except to save the life of the mother or rape/incest.

[My Winter Storm]

This story is false and the woman an apparent liar who had an abortion a few years ago and that fetus was thrown onto a roof:

http://realchoice.blogspot.com/2006/10/update-on-baby-in-plastic-bag.html


Sycloria Williams.... [Sycloria] ... arrived at the clinic for a pre-scheduled abortion. At approximately 2:30 p.m. [Sycloria] gave birth in the recovery room of the clinic. [She] observed the baby moving and gasping for air for approximately five (5) minutes. The staff began screaming that the baby was alive; at which time, Ms. Belkis Gonzalez cut the umbilical cord, threw it into a red bag with black printing. Ms. Gonzalez then swept the baby, with her hands, into that same red bag along with the gauze used during the procedure."

Consider this one refuted.

[Missileman]

This story is false and the woman an apparent liar who had an abortion a few years ago and that fetus was thrown onto a roof:

http://realchoice.blogspot.com/2006/10/update-on-baby-in-plastic-bag.html



Consider this one refuted.

Ummm, have another link that disproves the story? The one you posted is satire from an anti-abortionist.

[Mr. P]

Huh? Woman goes for abortion..baby/fetus dies..woman archives goal and sues?

Gotta splain this one to me.

[DragonStryk72]

Nothing particularly controversial about this. There was no abortion.

It's an open-and shut case of Murder One.

I'm with Jeff on this one, what the fuck is there to mull over? I mean, seriously, the baby was alive, autopsy proved that. That's just plain barbaric.

[DragonStryk72]

This story is false and the woman an apparent liar who had an abortion a few years ago and that fetus was thrown onto a roof:

http://realchoice.blogspot.com/2006/10/update-on-baby-in-plastic-bag.html



Consider this one refuted.

Um, well, let's go over it shall we:


Isn't it bizarre, that they have to do an autopsy -- to call in a forensic medical expert -- to tell if what they have in a bag is the body of a murdered person or mere tissue?

Okay, right, this person stopped being a journalist, period. This person jumped to a conclusion based on an assumption. Now, having a friend who works in forsenics, I can tell you for fact they do an autopsy in almost all deaths, to determine cause of death, this includes, but not limited to gunshot wounds to the head, decapitation, heart wounds, etc.. She has just slighted her own objectivity as a journalist here.

[DragonStryk72]

Huh? Woman goes for abortion..baby/fetus dies..woman archives goal and sues?

Gotta splain this one to me.

Well, at 18, I hardly figure she's worked out the full grasp of having a baby (Doesn't excuse the unprotected sex leading up to baby, but let's roll with this one for a minute). For most girls at that point, babies are a concept, and unfortunately, schools seem to teach the idea that the scariest thing that can happen to you is becoming a teenage mother. Whole life just down the toilet, and the clinics where abortions occur do nothing to discourage this behavior, and in fact, likely only make it easier to view the fetus in question as nothing more than an inconvenience that can be easily rectified with no real repercussions.

This gets blown to shit when the baby is born, starts breathing, and I have to believe, screaming. It is a vastly different experience, and I cannot imagine the sheer terror of watching a live baby that you went into labor with getting killed in front of you.

[My Winter Storm]

Ummm, have another link that disproves the story? The one you posted is satire from an anti-abortionist.

It may be satire but it says all you need to know. Look at the details, the names. Exact same name, similar story. Google her.

[My Winter Storm]

http://www.prolifeblogs.com/articles/aggregator.php?entry=654290

Part of the same story, but on a pro life website.

[Immanuel]

This story is false and the woman an apparent liar who had an abortion a few years ago and that fetus was thrown onto a roof:

http://realchoice.blogspot.com/2006/10/update-on-baby-in-plastic-bag.html



Consider this one refuted.

I'm at a loss as to how you can claim the Buffalo News article to be refuted and site an article (granted it is nearly three years old) that states that this incident happened. According to the Buffalo News, the doctor is being investigated. The Buffalo News didn't say that this incident happened in recent weeks. It simply states that the doctor is being investigated. It sometimes takes a while before a crime in investigated. It might be that the crime was not reported until later or did not reach the investigating authorities or it might be that for one reason or another the police didn't think they had any evidence or any number of reasons.

Also an investigation does not mean that a crime actually occurred. It may very well be that the doctor is being investigated. The investigators may determine that a crime did not occur. It may also be true that that despite the facts of a given incident the doctor will not be charged with a crime, but that does not mean the incident (in this case a very disturbing incident) did not happen or even that a crime was not committed. Many crimes go uncharged simply because the prosecutor has determined that he/she does not have the necessary evidence to convict.

Where does the realchoice article state that the incident did not happen? Unless I have missed that, I would say realchoice supports the Buffalo News article rather than refutes it. It would seem to me, that if you actually want to refute an article it would be better to use information proving that the article is incorrect rather than an article that actually supports the one that you are trying to refute.



Um, well, let's go over it shall we:



Okay, right, this person stopped being a journalist, period. This person jumped to a conclusion based on an assumption. Now, having a friend who works in forsenics, I can tell you for fact they do an autopsy in almost all deaths, to determine cause of death, this includes, but not limited to gunshot wounds to the head, decapitation, heart wounds, etc.. She has just slighted her own objectivity as a journalist here.

Not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. But, does the reporter have to be an unbiased journalist to report news? If so, then no one is reporting news these days. Granted the article is slanted, but that does not mean that the facts are not true. Even liberal reporters tend to include facts in their articles. The facts are there, it is the interpretation of the facts that slant the article.


I'm against 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions except to save the life of the mother or rape/incest.

I didn't know that. For some reason, I have always considered you the opponent on this issue. I have always thought you were pro-choice to the bitter end. See we learn things new everyday. :)

Immie

[Missileman]

It may be satire but it says all you need to know. Look at the details, the names. Exact same name, similar story. Google her.

Missed the dates of the articles...carry on!

[PostmodernProphet]

okay, did some tracking.....the abortion clinic operators were investigated for manslaughter charges but the autopsy was inconclusive because of decomposition of the body (it wasn't recovered until eight days later and it had been placed in a biohazard container with a caustic material and left on the roof of the building).....the clinic owner did lose her license and the clinic was shut down.....a year later she was criminally charged with operating an abortion clinic without a license at another location......

[DragonStryk72]

I'm at a loss as to how you can claim the Buffalo News article to be refuted and site an article (granted it is nearly three years old) that states that this incident happened. According to the Buffalo News, the doctor is being investigated. The Buffalo News didn't say that this incident happened in recent weeks. It simply states that the doctor is being investigated. It sometimes takes a while before a crime in investigated. It might be that the crime was not reported until later or did not reach the investigating authorities or it might be that for one reason or another the police didn't think they had any evidence or any number of reasons.

Also an investigation does not mean that a crime actually occurred. It may very well be that the doctor is being investigated. The investigators may determine that a crime did not occur. It may also be true that that despite the facts of a given incident the doctor will not be charged with a crime, but that does not mean the incident (in this case a very disturbing incident) did not happen or even that a crime was not committed. Many crimes go uncharged simply because the prosecutor has determined that he/she does not have the necessary evidence to convict.

Where does the realchoice article state that the incident did not happen? Unless I have missed that, I would say realchoice supports the Buffalo News article rather than refutes it. It would seem to me, that if you actually want to refute an article it would be better to use information proving that the article is incorrect rather than an article that actually supports the one that you are trying to refute.




Not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. But, does the reporter have to be an unbiased journalist to report news? If so, then no one is reporting news these days. Granted the article is slanted, but that does not mean that the facts are not true. Even liberal reporters tend to include facts in their articles. The facts are there, it is the interpretation of the facts that slant the article.



I didn't know that. For some reason, I have always considered you the opponent on this issue. I have always thought you were pro-choice to the bitter end. See we learn things new everyday. :)

Immie

Okay, you're right, journalists don't have to be unbiased to report news, but to report the truth you have to be, in fact it is one of the first things you're taught in journalism classes, is maintaining objectivity in reporting.

Even with that aside, a person who has already made up their mind and shows it in the largest way possible loses credibility with all but those peoples' minds who were already made up as well.

[Immanuel]

Okay, you're right, journalists don't have to be unbiased to report news, but to report the truth you have to be, in fact it is one of the first things you're taught in journalism classes, is maintaining objectivity in reporting.

If that is the case, then every journalist alive today failed the course. I don't necessarily believe that one must be unbiased in order to report the truth. One can report the truth and give an opinion on the subject. That is not to say, though, that reporters do so.


Even with that aside, a person who has already made up their mind and shows it in the largest way possible loses credibility with all but those peoples' minds who were already made up as well.

Hehe, well, journalists have lost credibility with me anyway. Thanks to the internet, I don't trust anything I see in print any longer. I had read about Michael Phelps and the apology the other day. I wouldn't believe the report of his smoking dope until I actually saw a news clip of him apologizing and even now if I saw him denying the clip, I'd believe him over the clip. The same thing goes with Miley Cyrus and the "Asian Eyes" apology. And, I'm not really a fan of either Michael or Miley. Not that I hate them, but I'm just not "a fan" so to speak.

Immie

[My Winter Storm]

The strange thing is it that this incident happened recently - the newest article is dated only a few days ago. On January 27, a lawsuit was filed on behalf of Shaniece, Sycloria's daughter who was allegedly thrown on the roof on an abortion clinic three years ago.

Stange that after the suit was filed, another story pops up involving the exact same woman with a very similar story.

Could it be possible the media was duped, or made this 'new' story up? It just sounds very odd to me. Too many coincidences.

[Immanuel]

The strange thing is it that this incident happened recently - the newest article is dated only a few days ago. On January 27, a lawsuit was filed on behalf of Shaniece, Sycloria's daughter who was allegedly thrown on the roof on an abortion clinic three years ago.

Stange that after the suit was filed, another story pops up involving the exact same woman with a very similar story.

Could it be possible the media was duped, or made this 'new' story up? It just sounds very odd to me. Too many coincidences.

MWS,

The way I am reading this is that there was only one incident, the one from your realchoice article and the one from the OP are the same incident. The doctor is being investigated from an incident that happened in 2006. This came from the OP:



Williams struggled with the decision to have an abortion, Pennekamp said. She declined an interview request made through him.

She concluded she didn't have the resources or maturity to raise a child, he said, and went to the Miramar Women's Center on July 17, 2006. Sonograms indicated she was 23 weeks pregnant, according to the Department of Health. She met Renelique at a second clinic two days later.

That quote describes the same incident that your article from realchoice.com described. So the way I am reading this, is that the Boston News article is reporting that the doctor is being investigated for the 2006 killing rather than a second one with similar circumstances.

Immie

[PostmodernProphet]

Immie is right.....the incident is the same, it's just that the filing of the civil suit brought the incident to people's attention again......

[Psychoblues]

Immie is generally correct if not "right"??!?!?????!?!?!???!




Immie is right.....the incident is the same, it's just that the filing of the civil suit brought the incident to people's attention again......

I'm just sayin'??!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!???!

Need a drink, pimp?!?!?!??!?!??!?!?!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

[My Winter Storm]

I know think Immie is correct - the problem is the facts in the case have been badly warped to make this case seem worse than it actually is.

There are various sources which claim this baby was thrown onto the roof of the clinic, and was left there for nine days. Other, more recent sources, however, say this child was disposed of in a biohazard bag, then discarded.

I have realised the dates clash with each other. This woman could not have had two late term abortions in the same year. The facts have been twisted, likely by lifers trying to push their agenda, which is a shame, because no matter which way you look at it, this should never have happened.

[PostmodernProphet]

The facts have been twisted, likely by lifers trying to push their agenda

what facts have been twisted?

[Immanuel]

I know think Immie is correct - the problem is the facts in the case have been badly warped to make this case seem worse than it actually is.

There are various sources which claim this baby was thrown onto the roof of the clinic, and was left there for nine days. Other, more recent sources, however, say this child was disposed of in a biohazard bag, then discarded.

I have realised the dates clash with each other. This woman could not have had two late term abortions in the same year. The facts have been twisted, likely by lifers trying to push their agenda, which is a shame, because no matter which way you look at it, this should never have happened.


what facts have been twisted?

What facts have been twisted?

Well, I must say the statement that they threw the baby in the trash is a bit unbelievable for me. I must say that I doubt that the clinic did this. Not because they have any reverence for the baby, but rather because of the health risks involved. Hospitals and clinics take very good care to dispose of bio-hazards and a dead baby (if the mother had AIDS for instance) could be a major health risk. I suspect that Ms. Williams was told by some well meaning pro-lifers that this is what happened, but I highly doubt that actually occurred.

One thing that MWS is definitely right about, this should never have happened.

Immie

[PostmodernProphet]

Well, I must say the statement that they threw the baby in the trash is a bit unbelievable for me. I must say that I doubt that the clinic did this. Not because they have any reverence for the baby, but rather because of the health risks involved. Hospitals and clinics take very good care to dispose of bio-hazards and a dead baby (if the mother had AIDS for instance) could be a major health risk. I suspect that Ms. Williams was told by some well meaning pro-lifers that this is what happened, but I highly doubt that actually occurred.



perhaps not a clinic which had been investigated frequently for health code violations (2004,2005,2006)

http://operationrescue.org/pdfs/gonzalezarrest.PDF

perhaps, since you folks don't believe the facts as "twisted" by anti-abortionists, you will believe the facts presented by the press....


The Board of Medicine revoked the license of a Florida doctor on Friday accused of medical malpractice in a botched abortion in which a live baby was delivered, but ended up dead in a cardboard box.


Police found the infant's decomposing remains a week later.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2009/02/07/2009-02-07_doctor_loses_license_over_livebirth_abor.html

I'm glad clinics take very good care in disposing of bio-hazards......looks to me like the only "twisting" going on is by those who want to keep abortions legal......

[PostmodernProphet]

here is another news report regarding abortion clinic history of this particular clinic operator....that you abortion proponents may find enlightening.......

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2006-10-26/news/in-the-bag/


Eight days after the alleged incident, authorities received another anonymous tip. The source said the baby's body had been tossed on the roof while the police searched the facility but had since been placed back inside the West Hialeah clinic. Police obtained a second search warrant and raided the facility again. Sure enough, they discovered a badly decomposed female fetus in a biohazard bag, shoved in a nondescript box on the floor — one they had previously searched.

while you're at it you can read the case stories of some of the other patients they have nearly killed.....

[avatar4321]

I'm against 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions except to save the life of the mother or rape/incest.

I am curious why the rape/incest? I mean I certainly dont want to put those people through more than they can bear. but if it was that vital wouldnt it be done in the first trimester? If you are going to be emotionally distraught carrying a child you dont want, why would you wait till the child would be viable outside the womb to abort it?

Im just not seeing the point.

[Missileman]

I am curious why the rape/incest? I mean I certainly dont want to put those people through more than they can bear. but if it was that vital wouldnt it be done in the first trimester? If you are going to be emotionally distraught carrying a child you dont want, why would you wait till the child would be viable outside the womb to abort it?

Im just not seeing the point.

Let's say that in the case of incest, the father keeps the daughter under wraps and the pregnancy isn't discovered until the 2nd or 3rd trimester...in the case of rape, perhaps the victim doesn't realize she's pregnant until after the 1st trimester.

[Immanuel]

perhaps not a clinic which had been investigated frequently for health code violations (2004,2005,2006)

http://operationrescue.org/pdfs/gonzalezarrest.PDF

perhaps, since you folks don't believe the facts as "twisted" by anti-abortionists, you will believe the facts presented by the press....





http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2009/02/07/2009-02-07_doctor_loses_license_over_livebirth_abor.html

I'm glad clinics take very good care in disposing of bio-hazards......looks to me like the only "twisting" going on is by those who want to keep abortions legal......


here is another news report regarding abortion clinic history of this particular clinic operator....that you abortion proponents may find enlightening.......

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2006-10-26/news/in-the-bag/



while you're at it you can read the case stories of some of the other patients they have nearly killed.....

You address your very ill informed posts to "abortion proponents", yet you quote me. If you knew anything at all about me, you would not have done so. I am as opposed to abortion as you, if not more so.

I never said, they did not put the baby in the trash. I did say that I think it is highly unlikely. By the reports in the papers (none of which are credible) it appears that they did, but I still find it questionable. Simply because a paper reports something happened doesn't mean it did. They may have gotten that story straight from Ms. Williams mouth and who knows if she knows what really happened to the baby. The police recovered the baby a week later? Maybe they did. Where did they recover it? In a trash heap at the local landfill? Or maybe it was in the location that these clinics dispose of hazardous waste? The Daily News doesn't say where it was recovered.

As for the report from operation rescue, I'm sorry, but they have proven themselves to be to the extreme and as dishonest as the left is in these cases. Honesty is not their highest priority. It is a shame that people who claim to be faith based will stoop to the levels that Operation Rescue has stooped to. The people at O.R. are by no means fighting this battle in the manner that Christ would have them fight.

As for keeping abortions legal, I could care less whether they are legal or not. I want them stopped completely. Making them illegal seems like a great idea, doesn't it? At first thought one would say that if abortions were illegal then we'd have no abortions. Yeah, right, drugs are illegal. Making them illegal hasn't stopped drug addicts from using drugs. If making abortions illegal would stop them, I would be all for it. Since that won't work, I'm more than happy to work towards any means necessary, short of killing abortion doctors, that will stop abortion.

Immie

[DragonStryk72]

I know think Immie is correct - the problem is the facts in the case have been badly warped to make this case seem worse than it actually is.

There are various sources which claim this baby was thrown onto the roof of the clinic, and was left there for nine days. Other, more recent sources, however, say this child was disposed of in a biohazard bag, then discarded.

I have realised the dates clash with each other. This woman could not have had two late term abortions in the same year. The facts have been twisted, likely by lifers trying to push their agenda, which is a shame, because no matter which way you look at it, this should never have happened.

yeah, it was put in the bad with the caustic chemical, then thrown up onto the roof. It was in the articles you put up.

[PostmodernProphet]

You address your very ill informed posts

I'm getting a bit tired of this shit.....one thread I am accused of being a liar, now "ill informed".....if you don't like truth put me on ignore, but stop implying that what I post is anything other than factual.....you want to challenge what I posted put up some evidence or shut the fuck up.....I have shown what the police stated happened....you throw around assumptions about what may have happened instead.....are my posts or yours "ill informed"....fuck, your claims aren't "informed" at all.....it's simply your thoughts on what might otherwise have happened....

[Immanuel]

I'm getting a bit tired of this shit.....one thread I am accused of being a liar, now "ill informed".....if you don't like truth put me on ignore, but stop implying that what I post is anything other than factual.....you want to challenge what I posted put up some evidence or shut the fuck up.....I have shown what the police stated happened....you throw around assumptions about what may have happened instead.....are my posts or yours "ill informed"....fuck, your claims aren't "informed" at all.....it's simply your thoughts on what might otherwise have happened....

You prove you are ill informed by calling me an abortion proponent. No if's and's or but's about it.

And when have I ever called you a liar? It seems you are once again ill informed in that case. I have never done such a thing.

You claimed I said that the baby was not placed in the trash, which of course, I did not. I did say that I doubted it and I still do. Simply because it has been reported as having happened in such a manner does not make it so. I do not trust anything put on the internet and especially nothing put out there by partisan groups like O.R. or so called journalists who all have agendas.

Immie

And if you are going to whine like a three year old for being called ill informed, you need to take chill out.

[Immanuel]

Edit to my last: Going back and looking at what I posted, I can see where you must have thought I was saying that your statements about the baby being thrown in the trash were ill informed. Let it be known that was not the case. The "ill informed" statement only applied to your claim that I am an abortion proponent.

Immie

[PostmodernProphet]

You prove you are ill informed by calling me an abortion proponent. No if's and's or but's about it.


I would say you have to be a proponent to defend someone who was convicted of practicing abortions without a license, who has a long history of risking the lives of her patients, and who clearly was trying to obstruct justice by hiding the evidence of her wrong doing.....


I do not trust anything put on the internet and especially nothing put out there by partisan groups like O.R. or so called journalists who all have agendas.


not to mention not putting trust in police reports and secular press that I provided



And if you are going to whine like a three year old for being called ill informed, you need to take chill out.

getting pissed off isn't whining....I'm fed up with the assholes who talk shit when they have nothing to back it up......so fuck your "chill out" and either back up what you say or shut up..;...

[Immanuel]

I would say you have to be a proponent to defend someone who was convicted of practicing abortions without a license, who has a long history of risking the lives of her patients, and who clearly was trying to obstruct justice by hiding the evidence of her wrong doing.....

Where the heck did I defend them? No where in this thread have I defended the clinic. I simply don't believe everything I have read on the net any longer. Several years ago, I would have come out blasting that clinic and calling them murderers. And time after time after time when I do that, I find out that what I read on the net (even from so called secular media outlets) was an out and out lie.

Therefore, I don't come out as gung ho as I used to. There are better ways to get the point across rather than calling these people murderers.



not to mention not putting trust in police reports and secular press that I provided

As I stated in my post, the report by the Daily News does not mention WHERE the body was found. Did they conveniently leave that pertinent information out? In three weeks, the media will state that the report said the baby was found to be properly disposed of and then some of us will have egg on our faces.

No where in the report does it state that the police found the baby in the dumps. It states that the baby was found a week later. What I'd like to know is how they know it was this baby. Did they do a DNA test on it?

Secular Press? I hope you are not claiming that they are unbiased.


getting pissed off isn't whining....I'm fed up with the assholes who talk shit when they have nothing to back it up......so fuck your "chill out" and either back up what you say or shut up..;...

You are ill informed when you call me an abortion proponent. Maybe my attitude toward the issue has chilled out in the past couple of years, but it is more because I have said my piece on the issue and feel that I am beating my head against a brick wall and no one really gives a damned how many babies America destroys every year.

I've fought over this issue on these websites for going on ten years and no one on the other side really cares. As far as they are concerned it is nothing more than a blob of cells and killing it is something to be celebrated rather than mourned.

Immie

[Immanuel]

The complaint says one of the clinic owners, Belkis Gonzalez came in and cut the umbilical cord with scissors, then placed the baby in a plastic bag, and the bag in a trash can.

PMP,

Another reason why I doubt the "trash can" part of this story is something that happened to me last Wednesday. On Wednesday evening my son cut his hand on a broken fish bowl. The cut went all the way to the tendon. I took him to the emergency room to get stitched up. There on the floor in the room was a trash can. In the trash can was a red bag. The bag was marked, "Bio-Hazard". The bloody towels, gloves, gauze and anything that came in contact with my son's blood was thrown into this trash bag.

I am certain that sometime after we left, one of the orderlies went into that room secured the bag and disposed of it... not in the trash, but in what ever manner is prescribed by law.

I am still going on the presumption that the clinic in question was a licensed clinic and if so, I do not believe they would casually discard any bio-hazard in the manner stated.

You seem to think that I was giving my "feelings" as to what they did when you claim I was defending them. I was not giving my feelings, I was stating what I saw as a perfectly viable explanation as to what MIGHT have happened. I am not jumping to the conclusion that the press is reporting this incident correctly or even that they are deliberately being deceitful. I'm simply stating that there is a possibility that the reports are not completely accurate at this point in time.

Immie

[Yurt]

You prove you are ill informed by calling me an abortion proponent. No if's and's or but's about it.

And when have I ever called you a liar? It seems you are once again ill informed in that case. I have never done such a thing.

You claimed I said that the baby was not placed in the trash, which of course, I did not. I did say that I doubted it and I still do. Simply because it has been reported as having happened in such a manner does not make it so. I do not trust anything put on the internet and especially nothing put out there by partisan groups like O.R. or so called journalists who all have agendas.

Immie

And if you are going to whine like a three year old for being called ill informed, you need to take chill out.

you don't know jack

[Immanuel]

you don't know jack

And what is that supposed to mean?

Immie

[PostmodernProphet]

As I stated in my post, the report by the Daily News does not mention WHERE the body was found.

the other news article did....and I quoted it in the post.....

[Yurt]

And what is that supposed to mean?

Immie

i'm messin with you, see the last sentence in your post :coffee:

[Immanuel]

the other news article did....and I quoted it in the post.....


I'm sorry, your quote says it was found "in a cardboard box". That is not the location that it was found. Location would be... "still on the roof", "in the local landfill", "in the county bio-hazardous waste disposal facility" or something like that. That is what I mean by location.

For the record, none of this discussion excuses the behavior of the clinic. That baby was a human being not to mention the fact that since most liberals draw the line at birth, it was a born human being and should have been treated as such with dignity. Even if the body was property disposed of, the treatment that Ms. Gonzalez gave both her patients is inexcusable and criminal.

She should be tried for murder as I said in my first post of the thread.

Immie

Edit: Okay, I went back and read my posts in this thread. I had not said that she should have been tried for murder. My apologies, I was thinking it. I would think that anyone who knows me on these sites would know my feelings on this.

[PostmodernProphet]

I'm sorry, your quote says it was found "in a cardboard box". That is not the location that it was found. Location would be... "still on the roof", "in the local landfill", "in the county bio-hazardous waste disposal facility" or something like that. That is what I mean by location.



is this what you meant by location?.....from my previous quote of the Miami New Times, Post #24.....
they discovered a badly decomposed female fetus in a biohazard bag, shoved in a nondescript box on the floor — one they had previously searched.

[Immanuel]

is this what you meant by location?.....from my previous quote of the Miami New Times, Post #24.....
they discovered a badly decomposed female fetus in a biohazard bag, shoved in a nondescript box on the floor — one they had previously searched.

Post #24? According to my screen post #24 belongs to pb?


Immie is generally correct if not "right"??!?!?????!?!?!???!

I'm just sayin'??!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!???!

Need a drink, pimp?!?!?!??!?!??!?!?!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

Okay, you need to understand, I am not defending the clinic. I am simply saying that the reports may not be reporting the full story either deliberately or because they have inaccurate information.

Second, an indescript box on the floor still does not indicate that there has been a violation here except for a moral violation as in who in their right mind would shove a human being into a box and leave it sitting on the floor for eight days. As far as I am concerned that child deserved a proper burial.

I have no idea what the requirements are for handling a fetal body after an abortion. I wouild hope that at the very least they would have to be stored in a refrigerator until proper disposal, but I don't know that. Nor do I know that the floor it was found on was not in a refrigerator. Nor do we know that this female fetus was even the same child... which in and of itself brings about more horrors.

The whole story is tragic. I'm glad that not only did the clinic lose it's license, but the doctor as well. I'm sure it could not have happened to better people. :)

Immie

Edit: I found your post that you quoted. On my screen it is #29.

[PostmodernProphet]

Edit: I found your post that you quoted. On my screen it is #29.

24 or 29, your last three posts have been devoted to the premise that it wasn't there at all.....you continue to give these creeps the benefit of the doubt....."it doesn't matter that these people lost their license"......."it doesn't matter that the fetus was in a box"...."it doesn't matter that the box was in a room that had been searched"....."we ought to assume that the press and police got it wrong because you can't trust people who are opposed to abortions"....."but oh, I'm not really in favor of abortions, I just don't trust people who are opposed to them as much as I trust people who do them".......

[Immanuel]

24 or 29, your last three posts have been devoted to the premise that it wasn't there at all.....

No, they were not. My last three posts were that the article doesn't state where the body was found or whether or not correct procedures were followed. I never once came close to justifying the actions of the clinic.

You know something? You and I are on the same side of this issue. I don't understand what your problem is.

Immie

[Immanuel]

24 or 29, your last three posts have been devoted to the premise that it wasn't there at all.....you continue to give these creeps the benefit of the doubt....."it doesn't matter that these people lost their license"......."it doesn't matter that the fetus was in a box"...."it doesn't matter that the box was in a room that had been searched"....."we ought to assume that the press and police got it wrong because you can't trust people who are opposed to abortions"....."but oh, I'm not really in favor of abortions, I just don't trust people who are opposed to them as much as I trust people who do them".......

I think you have gotten so pissed off about this, that you are having a reading comprehension problem. Maybe it is simply that you are NOT reading the entire post just picking and choosing phrases you want to bitch about because you got miffed that I said you were ill informed about my position on abortion.

No where have I given these creeps the benefit of the doubt. I have stated that Ms. Gonzalez is guilty of murder. I have never once stated that what was done was excusable regardless of where the body was found.

You asked a simple question and I tried to give you a simple answer. You asked what part of the stories we thought might be twisted. I simply pointed out two things that I thought didn't add up. That is all I did was point out that a couple of things don't appear accurate. As for Operation Rescue, they are not objective. They have gone to the point of stretching the truth if not out right lieing in order to fight this battle. That makes it hard to know exactly what to believe anymore.

Immie

[PostmodernProphet]

I don't understand what your problem is.

Immie


this....


As for the report from operation rescue, I'm sorry, but they have proven themselves to be to the extreme and as dishonest as the left is in these cases. Honesty is not their highest priority. It is a shame that people who claim to be faith based will stoop to the levels that Operation Rescue has stooped to. The people at O.R. are by no means fighting this battle in the manner that Christ would have them fight.

you've had more negative to say about the people who are opposing abortion than you have about these folks who churn out abortions by unlicensed doctors, putting women at risk, killing children, and hiding the evidence......

[Immanuel]

this....



you've had more negative to say about the people who are opposing abortion than you have about these folks who churn out abortions by unlicensed doctors, putting women at risk, killing children, and hiding the evidence......

Really?

I have twice said Ms. Gonzalez is guilty of murder. I have stated that I am glad both the clinic and the doctor have lost their licenses.

How much more negative can I be?

As for Operation Rescue, I have stated they have lost their objectivity. Is losing your objectivity worse than murder?

Immie

[Immanuel]

I have also stated several times that regardless of where the body was found what this clinic did was immoral.

I simply don't know how you can make that claim that I have been more negative about O.R. than these people.

Immie

[PostmodernProphet]

Really?

I have twice said Ms. Gonzalez is guilty of murder. I have stated that I am glad both the clinic and the doctor have lost their licenses.

How much more negative can I be?

As for Operation Rescue, I have stated they have lost their objectivity. Is losing your objectivity worse than murder?

Immie

but you began by saying you didn't believe the clinic had done anything wrong, that it was all misrepresentations by OR and the press......you granted them more credibility than even the police.....why?......

[Immanuel]

but you began by saying you didn't believe the clinic had done anything wrong, that it was all misrepresentations by OR and the press......you granted them more credibility than even the police.....why?......

No, I don't think I made myself clear... obviously I did not.

You asked what part of the story might be twisted. All I was trying to say was that somethings just didn't make sense to me. I don't think I ever said they had not done anything wrong. I'd like you to direct me to the post you think I said that.

For instance, even though I said that the articles did not adequately describe the disposal of the body or whether it fit legal requirements, I did not say that what they did before that was right in any manner at all. I can't describe it as anything short of murder.

I do believe that the press tries to stir up controversy. Which might be why they would not tell the full story. It is much more newsworthy to make it seem like this lady was a monster. Which she is simply by what she did, but the discarding of the baby into the trash makes for better news. Does that make sense?

I also did not say that what the clinic had done was proper. I wasn't making excuses for them, simply stating that there was a possibility that the clinic followed the correct procedures by law... despite the fact that the law is wrong if they were and despite the fact that the press might have tried to make it seem like what they had done was beyond ghastly.

Immie

[PostmodernProphet]

I'd like you to direct me to the post you think I said that.


it was the impression I walked away with to that point....

[Immanuel]

it was the impression I walked away with to that point....

It was not the impression I had intended to give.

I simply did not explain myself well enough. I did not expound on why I do not believe the papers and it really isn't as much disbelief as it is distrust in how they tell the story. While I believe the just of the story, I fear that they embellish in order to sell papers.

By the way, I like the current Avatar. It reminds me of a song that was once sung by a young girl in my church. I don't remember the title of the song, but it was something like, "Lord, don't let them take my little brother away". The song was about a young girl who was afraid her mother was going to have an abortion. It brought tears to our eyes.

Immie

[Immanuel]

Went and found the tape of the song.

It is "Little Brother" sung by Jenny Rogers, lyrics by Judy Rogers.

Immie

[PostmodernProphet]

art is in the eye of the beholder....to me she is saying "you didn't really mean to type that, did you?.....