Prep coach fired after team wins by 100 points [Archive] - Debate Policy

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red states rule

01-26-2009, 06:25 AM

Micah Grimes should be rehired and given a raise. Looks like the PC Police are now wanting to dictate the margin of victory in sports now

Prep coach fired after team wins by 100 points
Winning school called game 'shameful', but coach refused to apologize

DALLAS - The coach of a Texas high school basketball team that beat another team 100-0 was fired Sunday, the same day he sent an e-mail to a newspaper saying he will not apologize “for a wide-margin victory when my girls played with honor and integrity.”

Kyle Queal, the headmaster for Covenant School, said in The Dallas Morning News online edition that he could not answer if the firing was a direct result of coach Micah Grimes’ e-mail disagreeing with administrators who called the blowout “shameful.”

Dallas Academy has eight girls on its varsity team and about 20 girls in its high school. It is winless over the last four seasons. The academy boasts of its small class sizes and specializes in teaching students struggling with “learning differences,” such as short attention spans or dyslexia.

There is no mercy rule in girls basketball that shortens the game or permits the clock to continue running when scores become one-sided. There is, however, “a golden rule” that should have applied in this contest, Edd Burleson, the director of the Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools, said last week. Both schools are members of this association, which oversees private school athletics in Texas.

The story has received national attention, and the Dallas Academy team has been recognized for refusing to give up during the lopsided contest.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/28845363/

Trigg

01-26-2009, 09:18 AM

Well, it's always been kind of "understood" that if a team is up so many points they try to stop scoring. In order to not embarrass the other team.

I've seen coaches put in reserve players, or run new plays in order to keep scores down.

It's really nothing new. The coach shouldn't have been fired for it, but I"m surprised he ran the score up though. Unless he was trying to embarrass the other team, maybe he didn't like the other coach.

red states rule

01-26-2009, 09:20 AM

Trigg

01-26-2009, 09:29 AM

From what I have read Trigg, he did not run up the score. He put in his backups, and they played the game. They showed the coach what they could do on the floor

All I'm saying is this isn't a PC issue, not running up scores has been going on since I was in HS.

My husband had a football coach tell his team not to score anymore, it's common.

red states rule

01-26-2009, 09:33 AM

All I'm saying is this isn't a PC issue, not running up scores has been going on since I was in HS.

My husband had a football coach tell his team not to score anymore, it's common.

Well maybe the guy will be hired by the losing team

I do not see holding back would make the other team feel better - that would be more insulting to the losing team - and to the people in the stands who came to the see the game

Gaffer

01-26-2009, 09:35 AM

It's a school that specializes in retarded girls. What are they doing completing against normal kids? It's a pc joke to think these girls are going to compete in any way with girls of normal abilities.

Trigg

01-26-2009, 09:39 AM

Well maybe the guy will be hired by the losing team

I do not see holding back would make the other team feel better - that would be more insulting to the losing team - and to the people in the stands who came to the see the game

Were you in HS sports??? This isn't something new. My sons middle school coach used to change the lineup and put in reserve players all the time.

It's done so the other school isn't embarrassed and gives the reserve players a chance to get some practice on the field.

Why keep beating a dead horse??

red states rule

01-26-2009, 09:41 AM

Were you in HS sports??? This isn't something new. My sons middle school coach used to change the lineup and put in reserve players all the time.

It's done so the other school isn't embarrassed and gives the reserve players a chance to get some practice on the field.

Why keep beating a dead horse??

What I am saying Trigg is, the coach did that - and his team still continued to score

He did nothing wrong, and did not need to be fired. It is not his fault his team seems to be so much better then the teams his team plays

PostmodernProphet

01-26-2009, 10:18 AM

red states rule

01-26-2009, 01:45 PM

something that you may have overlooked....the winning school is named Covenant.....my guess is, its a Baptist private school.....I suspect the administration didn't think the coach's actions conveyed the proper image regarding Christian sportsmanship......I figure this has nothing to do with "political correctness"........

This isn't a "christian" thing

In basketball, as in all sports - you win. Sport is competitive. You don't play basketball to score some number of points. You can win a game by scoring 10points or 100 points

PostmodernProphet

01-26-2009, 02:42 PM

This isn't a "christian" thing

In basketball, as in all sports - you win. Sport is competitive. You don't play basketball to score some number of points. You can win a game by scoring 10points or 100 points

???....there isn't anything that isnt a "christian thing"......Christianity is about how you live your life.....

red states rule

01-26-2009, 02:45 PM

???....there isn't anything that isnt a "christian thing"......Christianity is about how you live your life.....

and what does Christianity have to do with a basketball game?

If the Steelers are up by 35 points going into the 4th quarter in the Super Bowl, should they relax and not score again?

The ClayTaurus

01-26-2009, 02:47 PM

What a coincidence that they scored exactly 100 points. :rolleyes:

The ClayTaurus

01-26-2009, 02:49 PM

and what does Christianity have to do with a basketball game?

If the Steelers are up by 35 points going into the 4th quarter in the Super Bowl, should they relax and not score again?Governed by the general rules of sportsmanship, they should decrease their level of effort once it becomes obviously clear that they are at no risk of losing. Running the score up only serves to embarass the opponent.

Abbey Marie

01-26-2009, 02:51 PM

Red,
Trigg is right that this is traditional. It has long been considered unsportsmanlike to make so many points over your competition.

As for it being Christian or not, of course it isn't per se. But setting a good example by not humiliating your opponent, especially when they are mentally handicapped, is just something a Christian would (or should) naturally do.

ETA: I don't know if firing was the best course of action. Coaches are pressured to win, and he may have just gotten carried away in the moment. I guess it depends on what was said behind closed doors.

PostmodernProphet

01-26-2009, 02:55 PM

and what does Christianity have to do with a basketball game?

If the Steelers are up by 35 points going into the 4th quarter in the Super Bowl, should they relax and not score again?

I would be surprised if a person's religious beliefs didn't impact they way they conduct themselves both on the field and off......isn't it called hypocrisy when some DOESN'T act the way their beliefs dictate?.......would you expect a Steeler's linesman who believed in God to act differently than a Steeler's linesman who's only consideration was self-promotion?......

PostmodernProphet

01-26-2009, 02:56 PM

As for it being Christian or not, of course it isn't per se.

to the extent that a good Muslim or a good Jew or a good Buddhist might also act the same.....but I would always expect a religious person to act differently than a person who's only consideration is what's good for himself......

red states rule

01-26-2009, 02:57 PM

I would be surprised if a person's religious beliefs didn't impact they way they conduct themselves both on the field and off......isn't it called hypocrisy when some DOESN'T act the way their beliefs dictate?.......would you expect a Steeler's linesman who believed in God to act differently than a Steeler's linesman who's only consideration was self-promotion?......

We are not talking about going out and try to hurt someone on purpose. We are talking about playing the game to the best of your abilities

I do not see why the coach was fired - but I doubt he will be unemployed for long

Abbey Marie

01-26-2009, 02:57 PM

to the extent that a good Muslim or a good Jew or a good Buddhist might also act the same.....but I would always expect a religious person to act differently than a person who's only consideration is what's good for himself......

Absotively. :beer: Hence the rest of my sentence on the topic.

PostmodernProphet

01-26-2009, 03:01 PM

We are not talking about going out and try to hurt someone on purpose.

actually, I think that's EXACTLY what we are talking about.....

red states rule

01-26-2009, 03:04 PM

actually, I think that's EXACTLY what we are talking about.....

So again, why wa s the coach fired except for PC reasons and the Super at the prep school felt "bad" for the losing team

PostmodernProphet

01-26-2009, 03:08 PM

the year my son was a senior in high school, the team had a manager's assistant who was Down's syndrome.....he was a basketball fanatic and had been at every practice and every game through his four years of high school.....the last game of his senior year the coach had him suit up.....and in the last couple minutes, when they were fifteen points up, the coach put him in the game....he took a three point shot and none of the opposing team even raised a hand......he made the shot and I imagine that he will remember that moment for the rest of his life......I would wonder about the religious beliefs of any player who would have blocked that shot......

by the way, his team mates carried him off the court on their shoulders......

red states rule

01-26-2009, 03:08 PM

PostmodernProphet

01-26-2009, 03:10 PM

So again, why wa s the coach fired except for PC reasons and the Super at the prep school felt "bad" for the losing team

from the original source....

On its Web site last week, Covenant, a private Christian school, posted a statement regretting the outcome of its Jan. 13 shutout win over Dallas Academy. “It is shameful and an embarrassment that this happened. This clearly does not reflect a Christlike and honorable approach to competition,” said the statement, signed by Queal and board chair Todd Doshier.

PostmodernProphet

01-26-2009, 03:13 PM

Good for your son. It is a memory he will have for the rest of his life

What does that have to do with the topic?

first of all my son was not involved.....except that he was a senior the year it happened......and it has everything to do with the topic....I question the coach who didn't make sure the other team scored some points the same way I would question a player who would have blocked that shot.....

Gaffer

01-26-2009, 03:13 PM

red states rule

01-26-2009, 03:14 PM

from the original source....

As I said he felt "bad"

jimnyc

01-26-2009, 03:44 PM

I can see Red's POV, but there IS an unwritten "sportsmanlike" rule that states you don't do this to opponents. Even when I played in the pee wee leagues, we were taught to never run up the score on an opponent.

And if the Steelers were up by 35 in the big game, and it was the 4th quarter, I'd bet my life they would either kneel the ball or telegraph their run up the gut plays.

NE was accused last year of running up the score against a handful of opponents and they were frowned upon throughout the league. Belichek wasn't fired like the HS teacher, but the teacher isn't also making millions per year under contract.

The HS coach did what he was taught to do, which is win, but someone forgot to teach HIM about humility, compassion and sportsmanship.

red states rule

01-26-2009, 03:51 PM

Abbey Marie

01-26-2009, 03:55 PM

Like I said. Why is a school for mentally handicapped kids playing a school of normal kids? Maybe they can start scheduling high school teams verses grade schoolers. When the high school kids blow out the grade school kids everyone can be up in arms over it and demand the high school coach be fired.

Whoever did the scheduling is the one that should be fired.

That's the reaction I had when I heard about it on Yahoo. Why was this game ever scheduled? I can guess- someone though it would be "inclusive" to let the handicapped kids play a real opponent. Much like the inclusion theories played out in academia.

jimnyc

01-26-2009, 04:02 PM

And I can see your POV as well Jim

Tell me, if the Steelers did run up the gut, and broke thru - would the RB go all the way or take a knee at the goal line?

The second stringers played the game when they given the chance

If Willie Parker broke through up the middle, he would race for the end zone as fast as he could! It's the coaches responsibility to call the plays in a sportsmanlike manner at that point, but an athlete is an athlete.

I don't hold the players responsible for the outcome of the BB game. Coach should have set them aside and told them to relax when they have the ball, and try their best to let the less fortunate girls score a few points.

Trigg

01-26-2009, 04:06 PM

So again, why wa s the coach fired except for PC reasons and the Super at the prep school felt "bad" for the losing team

I don't believe the coach should have been fired, maybe he got carried away.

This has nothing to do with PC or Christianity. It has everything to do with sportsmanship, this kind of compassion for a loosing team has been around for decades.

A team/coach is looked down on when they run a score up. It just isn't done.

Kathianne

01-26-2009, 05:35 PM

I don't know what the 'coach' was thinking, but as an educator in any school, private or public, he had a responsibility to teach his charges about good sportsmanship. At half time with the score 59-0, he certainly should have put in the B team and told them to have fun, lay off 3 pointers.

manu1959

01-26-2009, 05:44 PM

i have played and coached at either end of blow outs......it happens .....get over it.....

PostmodernProphet

01-26-2009, 06:32 PM

Kathianne

01-26-2009, 06:37 PM

back when I was in grade school, back in Iowa, I remember the high school basketball team got beaten something like 121-47 by a neighboring town.....I remember that the score got spraypainted on the side of the highschool....I also remember that about twenty car loads of guys from the high school drove over to that town and beat the crap out of every school kid they could find....good sportsmanship is a wise choice.....

That doesn't strike me as the same kind of 'blowout.' I don't think the fact that the losing team had learning disabled kids on it to be reason to 'apologize' it really does come down to sportsmanship, as you said. 100-0 are just such 'perfect' numbers, no doubt it was intentional. The fact they were still taking 3 pointers in the beginning of the 4th, until they got near to that 100 mark, just wrong.

Winning is good. Up to half-time I think they were fine, then the coach should have had the bench play more, for both teams sakes.

5stringJeff

01-26-2009, 06:56 PM

Kathianne

01-26-2009, 07:10 PM

Obviously, the board of the school thought that running up the score was bad publicity, because it did not reflect the Christian values the school teaches. And while I didn't know the losing team was from a school for mentally retarded girls, I did hear that they were much smaller than Covenant. The two teams should never have been on the same court.

http://www.dallas-academy.com/page.asp?iframe=about_us_overview.asp

Overview

Our Mission: Dallas Academy restores the promise of full academic enrichment to students with learning differences. Our staff establishes a meaningful connection with each student to overcome barriers to success.

Dallas Academy offers a structured multisensory program for students with diagnosed learning differences in grades 3-12.

We believe that structure and a caring, experienced staff are the main factors for success at the Academy. The classes provide a quiet, nurturing environment to students who in the past have had trouble with concentration and short attention spans. Many of these boys and girls are very frustrated and have not been successful in previous school settings.

The multisensory approach is especially beneficial to those students who have been diagnosed with dyslexia, dysgraphia, and other learning differences. Total enrollment ranges between 140 and 145 students with the class size ranging from 8 to 13 students. Dallas Academy is accredited by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools and follows the current curriculum guidelines set by the Texas Education Agency.

By incorporating a strong curriculum, team sports, and a wide variety of extra curricular student activities, Dallas Academy strives to prepare our students for further study (80% to 90% of DA’s graduates attend 2- or 4-yr colleges) and, more importantly, a successful and satisfying life.

manu1959

01-26-2009, 07:15 PM

so these guys were playing some learning disabled kids.....and the coach crushed them.....coach is an idiot....

are they going to fire the idiot that scheduled the match.....

Jeff

01-26-2009, 07:31 PM

so these guys were playing some learning disabled kids.....and the coach crushed them.....coach is an idiot....

are they going to fire the idiot that scheduled the match.....

I think ya have to question both the coach and yes the person that put these two teams together , 100 to zip is not teaching those kids anything , but in the same token to put the kids against a mentally challenged team isn't correct either, but it still has to fall on the coach , he runs his team.

manu1959

01-26-2009, 08:52 PM

I think ya have to question both the coach and yes the person that put these two teams together , 100 to zip is not teaching those kids anything , but in the same token to put the kids against a mentally challenged team isn't correct either, but it still has to fall on the coach , he runs his team.

when did it become the coaches responsibilty of a coach to control the outcome of the game.....put the players on the field and let the chips fall where they may.....

actsnoblemartin

01-26-2009, 09:04 PM

pc = pu**ies and cowards

Micah Grimes should be rehired and given a raise. Looks like the PC Police are now wanting to dictate the margin of victory in sports now

Prep coach fired after team wins by 100 points
Winning school called game 'shameful', but coach refused to apologize

DALLAS - The coach of a Texas high school basketball team that beat another team 100-0 was fired Sunday, the same day he sent an e-mail to a newspaper saying he will not apologize “for a wide-margin victory when my girls played with honor and integrity.”

Kyle Queal, the headmaster for Covenant School, said in The Dallas Morning News online edition that he could not answer if the firing was a direct result of coach Micah Grimes’ e-mail disagreeing with administrators who called the blowout “shameful.”

Dallas Academy has eight girls on its varsity team and about 20 girls in its high school. It is winless over the last four seasons. The academy boasts of its small class sizes and specializes in teaching students struggling with “learning differences,” such as short attention spans or dyslexia.

There is no mercy rule in girls basketball that shortens the game or permits the clock to continue running when scores become one-sided. There is, however, “a golden rule” that should have applied in this contest, Edd Burleson, the director of the Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools, said last week. Both schools are members of this association, which oversees private school athletics in Texas.

The story has received national attention, and the Dallas Academy team has been recognized for refusing to give up during the lopsided contest.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/28845363/

Hobbit

01-26-2009, 09:13 PM

Arkansas once beat Oklahoma in a Cotton Bowl (I think) victory so lopsided that there were players on the field who weren't even in the program. Even fourth and fifth string players were scoring. Does that make Lou Holtz a douchebag for 'running up the score?'

DragonStryk72

01-26-2009, 10:00 PM

Governed by the general rules of sportsmanship, they should decrease their level of effort once it becomes obviously clear that they are at no risk of losing. Running the score up only serves to embarass the opponent.

Okay, I hate when this happens, but here I happen to be on RSR's, speaking from having been beatly fairly soundly in sports over the years (cept for Ultimate Frisbee, there, I am God). I hate when people play down to me, it's just the same as talking down to someone. If you're going to come at me in a game, any game, come at me with your best, just as I have the respect to come at you with my best, and not assume you're done just cause I'm ahead, or that you're too frail to handle it if I win big. I don't mean my opponent's pity playing.

Jeff

01-26-2009, 10:30 PM

when did it become the coaches responsibilty of a coach to control the outcome of the game.....put the players on the field and let the chips fall where they may.....

I would say most would agree it is always the coaches job to control the outcome of the game , this is why we have so many openings for coaches that couldn't win, I think it is also a coaches responsibility to teach a team of kids to win well as well as to loose well , 100 to 0 against mentally handicapped team is defiantly not what I want my kids taught, should he be fired for it, I'm not really sure , but was it the right thing to teach young kids no way.

manu1959

01-26-2009, 10:35 PM

I would say most would agree it is always the coaches job to control the outcome of the game , this is why we have so many openings for coaches that couldn't win, I think it is also a coaches responsibility to teach a team of kids to win well as well as to loose well , 100 to 0 against mentally handicapped team is defiantly not what I want my kids taught, should he be fired for it, I'm not really sure , but was it the right thing to teach young kids no way.

so coaches are suposed to win......this guy wins and you all want him fired because he won to well.....

if the one team was truely "handicapped"......what the hell did people think the outcome was going to be...

Kathianne

01-26-2009, 10:36 PM

Okay, I hate when this happens, but here I happen to be on RSR's, speaking from having been beatly fairly soundly in sports over the years (cept for Ultimate Frisbee, there, I am God). I hate when people play down to me, it's just the same as talking down to someone. If you're going to come at me in a game, any game, come at me with your best, just as I have the respect to come at you with my best, and not assume you're done just cause I'm ahead, or that you're too frail to handle it if I win big. I don't mean my opponent's pity playing.

There's a difference between having your 'A' team and 'B' team. There's a difference in the coach telling the 'B' team to go out, have fun, work on team work, forget 3 point attempts. The 'B' team in this case was not put on deck. The idea of forgoing 3 point shots was not brought up, until very late in the game, when it was nearly a given they could reach the 100 mark.

I don't know that he should have been fired, but it seemed he didn't learn the errors of this game.

manu1959

01-26-2009, 10:40 PM

There's a difference between having your 'A' team and 'B' team. There's a difference in the coach telling the 'B' team to go out, have fun, work on team work, forget 3 point attempts. The 'B' team in this case was not put on deck. The idea of forgoing 3 point shots was not brought up, until very late in the game, when it was nearly a given they could reach the 100 mark.

I don't know that he should have been fired, but it seemed he didn't learn the errors of this game.

why is it the winning coaches resposibility to make sure the losing team is not smoked......

when did we start feeling bad for the loser and playing down to their level....no wonder this country is getting it's ass kicked in the global market.....

Kathianne

01-26-2009, 10:47 PM

why is it the winning coaches resposibility to make sure the losing team is not smoked......

when did we start feeling bad for the loser and playing down to their level....no wonder this country is getting it's ass kicked in the global market.....

Not mixing venues. High school sports and below, that is the topic. Sportsmanship, a teacher addressing his students and others.

Jeff

01-26-2009, 10:50 PM

so coaches are suposed to win......this guy wins and you all want him fired because he won to well.....

if the one team was truely "handicapped"......what the hell did people think the outcome was going to be...

Again I pretty much agree with you , why were they placed on the same court, my only problem is what lesson was taught to young kids here .

manu1959

01-26-2009, 10:52 PM

Again I pretty much agree with you , why were they placed on the same court, my only problem is what lesson was taught to young kids here .

having coached youth sports for 35 years everything from kindergarten rec leagues to u18 odp.....the kids are done about 1 minute after the match is over.....the adults never let go......

Jeff

01-26-2009, 11:02 PM

having coached youth sports for 35 years everything from kindergarten rec leagues to u18 odp.....the kids are done about 1 minute after the match is over.....the adults never let go......

I have also coached sports , well only for the last 20 yrs, and your correct, it is usually the parents , but that never stopped me from trying to teach the kids right, in a all star game my star short stop struck out he threw the bat and cussed the ump, i benched him, yup the parents were pissed , we won that game , the next game ( the championship game ) he conducted himself as he should , we won , that boy is now playing for SC and has scouts talking to him already, ( not cause of me lol, he is just a very talented baseball player)

manu1959

01-26-2009, 11:05 PM

I have also coached sports , well only for the last 20 yrs, and your correct, it is usually the parents , but that never stopped me from trying to teach the kids right, in a all star game my star short stop struck out he threw the bat and cussed the ump, i benched him, yup the parents were pissed , we won that game , the next game ( the championship game ) he conducted himself as he should , we won , that boy is now playing for SC and has scouts talking to him already, ( not cause of me lol, he is just a very talented baseball player)

totally agree with you......

Kathianne

01-26-2009, 11:07 PM

totally agree with you......

and wasn't that the original point? Kids do need to learn sportsmanship, regarding winning and losing.

manu1959

01-26-2009, 11:12 PM

and wasn't that the original point? Kids do need to learn sportsmanship, regarding winning and losing.

yep and 100 nil would be a great teaching moment for both sides......but nobody should be fired......

Kathianne

01-26-2009, 11:15 PM

yep and 100 nil would be a great teaching moment for both sides......but nobody should be fired......

I cannot disagree, as I said. At the same time, he really should have come out and said that driving the finish to 100 was wrong.

manu1959

01-26-2009, 11:16 PM

I cannot disagree, as I said. At the same time, he really should have come out and said that driving the finish to 100 was wrong.

but it wasn't wrong.....sometimes in life you win 100-nil and sometimes you lose 100-nil.....

Kathianne

01-26-2009, 11:19 PM

but it wasn't wrong.....sometimes in life you win 100-nil and sometimes you lose 100-nil.....

Yeah, it was. Poor sportsmanship. 1/2 time 59-0, really says, send in 2nd string, give them practice/experience. Tell them to play their best. Hope for 80-0.

manu1959

01-26-2009, 11:20 PM

Yeah, it was. Poor sportsmanship. 1/2 time 59-0, really says, send in 2nd string, give them practice/experience. Tell them to play their best. Hope for 80-0.

how is playing you best poor sportsmanship.....

Kathianne

01-26-2009, 11:30 PM

how is playing you best poor sportsmanship.....

When your best is so far ahead, to cause the other team to be degraded. That's not winning, that is screwing up. That is what this coach did and should have done different.

Not lose, not by a long shot. Could have settled with a 80-0 shut out, without a whisper. It really was the 3 points after a point.

manu1959

01-26-2009, 11:41 PM

When your best is so far ahead, to cause the other team to be degraded. That's not winning, that is screwing up. That is what this coach did and should have done different.

Not lose, not by a long shot. Could have settled with a 80-0 shut out, without a whisper. It really was the 3 points after a point.

why not just walk off after halftime then.....no need to degrade the other team by sending in the scrubs and telling them no three pointers...no scoring unless you pass it 10 times first.....

Kathianne

01-26-2009, 11:57 PM

why not just walk off after halftime then.....no need to degrade the other team by sending in the scrubs and telling them no three pointers...no scoring unless you pass it 10 times first.....

Sorry, I think a lesson for all. After 1/2 time the coach could say something like, "In the bag, go out there and play, they really couldn't challenge the brown round champs. Great practice for younger players and a boost for jr/sr bench players. They'd still have a blow out, maybe not 100-0,

red states rule

01-27-2009, 06:35 AM

Sorry, I think a lesson for all. After 1/2 time the coach could say something like, "In the bag, go out there and play, they really couldn't challenge the brown round champs. Great practice for younger players and a boost for jr/sr bench players. They'd still have a blow out, maybe not 100-0,

Kat, when the reserves get a chance to play - they play hard since they do not get many chances to play

It is their chance to show what they can do

These teams should never have been on the same court, but it is not the fault of the coach

Kathianne

01-27-2009, 06:59 AM

why not just walk off after halftime then.....no need to degrade the other team by sending in the scrubs and telling them no three pointers...no scoring unless you pass it 10 times first.....

Because sometimes as you and others pointed out, the mismatch is so great, that an adult needs to step in, that would be the coach. Time to grow some empathy for the other girls, time to just do the right thing. I said earlier, I don't know if firing him was the right thing, but seems there is probably more to this, as it didn't happen right away.

jimnyc

01-27-2009, 10:42 AM

For those against the schools decision, remember, this is not professional sports. This is a SCHOOL and they are supposed to be LEARNING. They'll get a much better lesson by winning with honor and sportsmanship than they will with rubbing it in the faces of handicapped girls.

Trust me, you all know I'm a sports freak, and the objective is to win. But the win was never in doubt here. They could have easily allowed their defense to sit back a bit and allow the other team better chances to score.

Here's a lesson learned. I'll bet 100% of those in attendance at the following game learned more about sportsmanship and team play than any other game. Not because they won, but because they showed compassion, respect & friendship to a handicapped player and allowed him to enjoy the game at the expense of running up the score.

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Trigg

01-27-2009, 11:46 AM

I'm surprised at the total lack of empathy some of the men on this board are showing.

When has it ever been okay to totally demoralize kids???

The team was in no danger of loosing.

The coach sent in 2nd stringers. But, he could have done so much more.

Telling them not to shoot 3 pointers, making them pass the ball repeatedly before a shot. There are many things he could have done in order to not embarrass these girls the way he did.

I've been in the stands on the loosing side and winning numerous times. It isn't enjoyable to watch a total blow out.

In the end these are kids we're talking about. Not college.....Not Pro.

The coach was wrong. Not getting fired wrong, but still wrong.

crin63

01-27-2009, 12:09 PM

I'm the assistant coach for girls basketball in a Baptist league that has 5 - 7 teams. This is my 3rd season. My girls were beat 86 -4 two years ago. It was their first season of actually being coached. None of them knew how to dribble or shoot and 1 month of coaching before the season started didn't do much for them. They got blown out in every game even by the girls half their size that had been playing for years but they still couldn't wait until the next game to get out there and play again.

We are such a small school that we've had 7th grade girls (my daughter) playing against high school seniors. The refs and the other coaches for the most part had mercy on us (except my daughter because she played basketball like it was hockey) but even against the "C" string our girls were getting clobbered. The C string girls weren't going to let up on us because they got to score some of their first points and got some of their first play time. I completely understand that. Every beating our girls took it just made them more determined to get better.

Our last game, we were blowing out the other team by 25 points in the 4th quarter so we put in 3 of our youngest players with 2 of our starters. We only have 8 girls on our team so we had them work on running their plays but that still meant shooting and scoring. We just weren't running layup drills on the other team any more. That was only our 3rd win in 3 seasons.

Learning deficiencies do not equal retardation or mental handicaps, it could be discipline problems. It does not mean that the kids are not athletic. It could have been their first season or a group of new kids.

manu1959

01-27-2009, 12:11 PM

emmett

01-27-2009, 12:26 PM

What a complex issue! Not quite as simplistic as the obvious ink writen on the page actually. Lots of angles!

Should the coach have been fired? NO. Should there be an examination of the scheduling process for that league? YES.

The coach DID play his reserves. As I understand, they played more time than the starters. The only other thing the coach could have done was openly tell them to back off. Is that coaching? Debateable!

I coached youth football for many years in a non metropolitan area of Hall County, Georgia (Gainesville). Our league had a wide range of kids. For years we finished second or third in a league dominated by a particular team. It was rumored that the school cheated birth certificates, played older kids and so forth. The fact is, they were just reallly good and coached well. They practiced every day, had very high parent participation and had been around for over twenty years.

The teams coach, Hiram ------- , was not a real good sport however and would regularly run up scores on the teams he played. The program did not lose a football game for over twenty years. At the conclusion of each season, they would travel to Florida to play, had a following that was unreal and like I said, parent participation unequaled by anything I have ever seen. In our first year, we were beaten by this team by a score of 77-7. We were one of the only teams that year to score a touchdown against this program. We cleverly turned that into a victory party of sorts in that we had scored this precious touchdown. We were a first year program in a league of 8 thru 10 year olds with only 4 ten year old kids on our team. Most were eight and some were nine. It was rumored that Hiram's team had eleven year olds and even a thirteen year old.

I set a goal for myself that year that I would beat that guy in less than five years. We even shared our goal with the kids. Carefully presented, it was not difficult to teach a frame of mind of progress. The kids understood, it was my parents that presented the difficulty. They didn't want us playing the White Sulphur team. I heard every bitch fact I could stand. The negativity was unreal. "Thise kids will hurt our babies", "We can't compete with that program", I heard it all!

The second year we lost 56-14! Noone else in the league scored a touchdown against them but us! Embarrasing.... hell no! Acheivement!!!!! You would have thought we had won the fucking Super Bowl after that game. One of our "reserves" if you want to call em that, an eight year old, Jeremy, with very poor vision, had luckily walked into a fumble, recovered it and ran it back for a touchdown, resulting in one of our scores. It was a beautiful moment, I was absolutely overtaken by it and cried like a baby having to isolate myself from my players for several minutes so as not to let them see me.

The third year most of my players were ten years old. Our programs popularity had gotten around and we had thirty players sign up. I had begun using a three back offense, running 95% of the time, against the advice of the 11-12 year old coach, JB Johnston, who was known as a good coach and I agree. He said it was too complex for 8-10 year olds and that we would step backwards if I continued it. White Sulphur beat us 35-28 that year and don't you think I didn't carry that game with me everywhere I went for the year following. We scored four touchdowns against a team who didn't lose.... ever! AND.... we played all thirty players! I remember watching the other sideline that year, Hiram would rush around grabbing his players by the facemask, cussing, screaming and carrying on. I would say I would have a hard time believing those little fellows had a very good time. The parents / coaches were just as bad. They bagan cussing the referees, hollering and displayed some of the worst sportsmanship I have ever seen displayed at a youth sports game. My guys on the other hand, were having a blast!!!! In that game, which I felt we had a reasonable chance to win I went to extra effort to have my players display good sportsmanship. With a couple of my more advanced or talented players, I even had conducted a little plan to have them go to extra effort to help up opposing players when possible and compliment the other team. They loved it. They knew they were getting better and were competitive with this program. Even the moms, who a year earlier were advocating finding another coach because I did not want to "skip" the White Sulphur game, were screaming encouragement and cheering their kids on.

Oh.... Jeremy? He was now my 3 back, 9 years old and scored two long running touchdowns in this game. He was such a sweet story it would make you cry. His eyesight was so bad he would run into the fence in the back of the end zone if his glasses got foggy! On one play in that game he had rolled over this much bigger kid while going through the line and hurt him by running head down like he was taught. Once he realized the kid was hurt after the play he had returned to help the kid up and walked with him to the sideline of the other team. An incident ensued involving Hiram (yup... the coach) pushing Jeremy and it was on boy!

To make a long story longer, it would be two years later, before vindication and the realization of our accomplishments as a team would pay off. as an assistant coach with JB Johnston ( I had moved up with my kids), in the 11-12 league. The White Sulphur team was as strong as ever and once again had went undefeated (9-0). We were also 9-0. It was the last game of the season, us and them, as it should have been and there were over three hundred people at this game. Players from every team, parents, the newspaper, EVERBODY!

My three back wishbone offense had been embraced by JB and we had begun using it the year before. We had lost a defensive struggle 14-7 the year previous, Hiram had even went so far as to compliment our program, jokingly of course.

In the time leading up to the game, Hiram had run up the score on the Lanier team 77-0 in an attempt to intimidate our team. We had played a 28-14 win with Lanier only two weeks earlier and I guess this was Hiram's way of scaring our kids but what he didn't know was we had sandbagged considerably in an attempt not to run up the score. Our kids had been well educated in this practice and understood what we did when we played "competitive" football. It was never about "sliding" or "gliding". It was our commitment to teach and instruct each and every member of our teams and allow an enviornment for everyone to participate. In the final game with White Sulphur it was understood before the game that we would be playing to win this time.... at all cost and it was the sentiment of everone to so this.... unanimously!

At halftime, we were up 20-0 and dominated the game. I learned a very valuable human essence lesson that day as I watchewd the other sideline. Hiram hollered, their parents hollered, there was pandimonium in their ranks. Our kids stood silently, with their helmets in their hands, lined along the sideline with wrenched looks of confusion on their little faces as they watched this display of horrible sportsmanship being played out for them on the other sideline. You could have heard a pin drop on our side of the field. They were learning a lesson that school would never be able to teach them. So were the White Sulphur players and parents. They were learning how to lose. The kids were doing fine, it was Hiram, his coaches and the parents that weren't doing so well.

It was there and then that I decided to teach Hiram two lessons that day! In the second half we used our "Bandit" defense, our name for reserves or second string if you may, I do not use those terms when coaching youths. They held em. On one drive by White Sulphur that went well into our territory, our kids forst team cheered their counterparts heavily. We knew we had the upper hand and could have put them back in and held them but we left the Bandits out there. Our kids screamed encouragement from the sidelines like sports champions they were about to be. The clocked ticked away the time and it became apparent we would be the first program in twenty three years to win a game against this truely superior White Sulphur program.

The White Sulphur kids rose to the occasion also. They did not allow our team to score again. It was a furocious second half of youth sports football, one I will remember as loong as I live. It was one of those that you live for if you are a coach, those of you who have been know exactly what I mean.

As the clock ticked down to zero and our guys were "saved by the bell" so to speak, we had won, 20-0! We had won, we had shutout the most awesome football program in Georgia Youth Sports in our area, after five years of trying, AND we had taught Hiram a lesson I bet he thinks about to this day. He is still the coach of that program and I have went to his games. He still has a great program, only now, he coaches differently. Maybe his age has calmed him down a little, maybe the awareness of today's programs have influenced him some but I like to think it was a little group of football players from Flowery Branch, Georgia, who came back time and time again, who refused to say die, continued to try and looked at progress as being the defining objective. They climed a little each year until they reached the top, and when they did, they reached a hand over the side and helped their opponets reach the top too, even though they had not been shown the same courtesy.

The Gainesville Times used the 1980 headline from the Georgia Bulldogs National Championship season to define the article about our players. UNBEATEN, UNTIED and UNBELIEVABLE!!!!

This particular group of kids went on to be the first Varsity Team (West Hall High School) to go on to the dome and play for a State Championship in their Class AAA. They did not win the Title but as JB JOhnston and I sat in our seats at the Georgia Dome we were very proud to think we even had a small hand in this outcome. It was a very unique group of children. As i watched them, I could only remember back to the day when I stood in front of the bleachers talking to them and the parents, I remember teaching them that there were four "downs" and that you needed ten yards gained to earned a "first down".

Sportmanship is the hardest game to win, despite the score! To insure that every child has fun is a much more challenging thing than winning! Winning is important however, it is the payoff that hard work and commitment bring. Winning or losing with dignity is important. You can lose and have fun.

The coach should not have fired! The other coach is who I blame. If they were on they would set a goal of how many points to try and score. If they didn't score, they would brought emphasis to the occasion when they almost scored and build on it! They should not be afraid to oplay this team again but welcome it with an anxious desire to acheive a better result. To score two points, maybe four or who knows..... the championship! It is the absence of this mindset that makes us think the team who scored so many points did something wrong. They did not!!! What they dide was held up a bar for the other team so as to allow them a place to begin to build and get better!

What about the blind kid? He went on to become a track star, scholastic powerhouse and forensic investigator for the FBI. He also enjoyed a quality stint as a pinch runner for the High School Baseball team being placed into the game when the fastest runner around was needed in situational circumstances. he never batted, never played the field and was only in five games of a fifty game schedule his senior year.

You can read a my space page, written by one of our kids who now lives out west, Simon Young, who was our quarterback during those years if you would like to view it! It's great! My son said he read it, I personally haven't!

DannyR

01-27-2009, 06:12 PM

At half time with the score 59-0, he certainly should have put in the B team and told them to have fun, lay off 3 pointers.

I don't play much basketball, but aren't 3 pointers technically a harder shot, ergo the reason they are worth 3 points vs 2? Could be the score would be a lot higher if they used the 2 pointers, as I can see the other team getting possession a lot more from missed 3 pointer rebounds.

Kathianne

01-27-2009, 07:51 PM

For those against the schools decision, remember, this is not professional sports. This is a SCHOOL and they are supposed to be LEARNING. They'll get a much better lesson by winning with honor and sportsmanship than they will with rubbing it in the faces of handicapped girls.

Trust me, you all know I'm a sports freak, and the objective is to win. But the win was never in doubt here. They could have easily allowed their defense to sit back a bit and allow the other team better chances to score.

Here's a lesson learned. I'll bet 100% of those in attendance at the following game learned more about sportsmanship and team play than any other game. Not because they won, but because they showed compassion, respect & friendship to a handicapped player and allowed him to enjoy the game at the expense of running up the score...

Jim that was great! It reminds me of this story (http://www.guy-sports.com/humor/stories/shays_heart_rendering_story.htm#Shays_Account), that may or may not be an urban legend (http://www.snopes.com/glurge/chush.asp), but in either case, the meaning is the clear.