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Little-Acorn
12-31-2008, 06:40 PM
Sowell nails it yet again. The man's grasp of relative philosophies, and his ability to get to the nub of a matter with a few words, is legendary. Here, the most salutory statement is the very first paragraph in the article.

Or as Ronald Reagan once succinctly put it, "It's not that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

----------------------------------

http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2008/12/02/freedom_and_the_left?page=full&comments=true

Freedom and the Left

by Thomas Sowell
Tuesday, December 02, 2008

Most people on the left are not opposed to freedom. They are just in favor of all sorts of things that are incompatible with freedom.

Freedom ultimately means the right of other people to do things that you do not approve of. Nazis were free to be Nazis under Hitler. It is only when you are able to do things that other people don't approve that you are free.

One of the most innocent-sounding examples of the left's many impositions of its vision on others is the widespread requirement by schools and by college admissions committees that students do "community service."

There are high schools across the country from which you cannot graduate, and colleges where your application for admission will not be accepted, unless you have engaged in activities arbitrarily defined as "community service."

The arrogance of commandeering young people's time, instead of leaving them and their parents free to decide for themselves how to use that time, is exceeded only by the arrogance of imposing your own notions as to what is or is not a service to the community.

Working in a homeless shelter is widely regarded as "community service"-- as if aiding and abetting vagrancy is necessarily a service, rather than a disservice, to the community.

Is a community better off with more people not working, hanging out on the streets, aggressively panhandling people on the sidewalks, urinating in the street, leaving narcotics needles in the parks where children play?

This is just one of the ways in which handing out various kinds of benefits to people who have not worked for them breaks the connection between productivity and reward, as far as they are concerned.

But that connection remains as unbreakable as ever for society as a whole. You can make anything an "entitlement" for individuals and groups but nothing is an entitlement for society as a whole, not even food or shelter, both of which have to be produced by somebody's work or they will not exist.

What "entitlements" for some people mean is forcing other people to work for their benefit. As a bumper sticker put it: "Work harder. Millions of people on welfare are depending on you."

The most fundamental problem, however, is not which particular activities students are required to engage in under the title of "community service."

The most fundamental question is: What in the world qualifies teachers and members of college admissions committees to define what is good for society as a whole, or even for the students on whom they impose their arbitrary notions?

What expertise do they have that justifies overriding other people's freedom? What do their arbitrary impositions show, except that fools rush in where angels fear to tread?

What lessons do students get from this, except submission to arbitrary power?

Supposedly students are to get a sense of compassion or noblesse oblige from serving others. But this all depends on who defines compassion. In practice, it means forcing students to undergo a propaganda experience to make them receptive to the left's vision of the world.

I am sure those who favor "community service" requirements would understand the principle behind the objections to this if high school military exercises were required.

Indeed, many of those who promote compulsory "community service" activities are bitterly opposed to even voluntary military training in high schools or colleges, though many other people regard military training as more of a contribution to society than feeding people who refuse to work.

In other words, people on the left want the right to impose their idea of what is good for society on others-- a right that they vehemently deny to those whose idea of what is good for society differs from their own.

The essence of bigotry is refusing to others the rights that you demand for yourself. Such bigotry is inherently incompatible with freedom, even though many on the left would be shocked to be considered opposed to freedom.

April15
12-31-2008, 07:50 PM
Once again Sowell is so wrong.

Little-Acorn
12-31-2008, 07:53 PM
That takes care of the usual hands-over-the-ears-and-insist-its-not-so response. Anybody got a sensible and/or intelligent one?

Kathianne
12-31-2008, 07:54 PM
That takes care of the usual hands-over-the-ears-and-insist-its-not-so response. Anybody got a sensible and/or intelligent one?

So true. Can't rep, but wic.

April15
12-31-2008, 10:00 PM
That takes care of the usual hands-over-the-ears-and-insist-its-not-so response. Anybody got a sensible and/or intelligent one?The essay is what is hands over eyes I will tell you what you are items.

emmett
12-31-2008, 10:29 PM
Hmmm! Ok... Well....... I'm gonna suprise y'all for a change!


I don't care for the article either! Sowell's ignorance as it applies to homeless people is smug and disconcerning. I'm a Libertarian and believe in every man for himself and his family however I am an advocate of community service.

Now while I am certainly no advocate of forces service by children, I do not see anything wrong with adolescent teens doing work of this type if they so choose. Sowell's analogy that all homeless people are drug addicts is incorrect. Yes, they urinate outside, where the he;; e;se are they going to go. Does one think they enjoy it.

Furthermore, not only students, but many folks get a return on their selfless input of time to others. I have done community work all my life. Let's compare. What is the difference in what exact type of volunteer work is being done. If it is volunteer or community work, it obviously needs to be done is my thinking. In 2001, along with many others, a few teenagers included, I helped fund and run a shelter for children. I can't go into much about it due to it's sensative nature but I will say that without the volunteers it would never had gotten off the ground.

Homelessness is a serious problem in our country and I take issue with Sowell's selfishness, as it is displayed in his written opinion. His supposed most important question asks, what qualifies teachers to judge what activities are considered worthy for students? Well..... what disqualifies them then. All he did was ask the question, he didn't even lend a reputable shred of opinion as to why not.

I would wonder what his opinion would be like about helping feeding homeless people on Thanksgiving. I mean hell.... families do it together. If a student engages in an activity that helps homeless people such as tutoring, teaching English, health care or any other, aren;t they then helping to fight the peoblem? Sowell would elect to just let it go!

I am a fan of Sowell, agree with alot of what he writes and says however I am a realist Libertarian. To me, it is our befelt obligation to help our fellow man. A true Libertarian understands that we aren't just about a philosophy that says I wanna keep mine and not be obligated to you. That is how I feel legally, but socially I am a true advocate of community service. It's what strengthens our foundation as a race of compassionate humans who can elect to give and or serve without government to manage it.

I can relate to his basic point that government shouldn't force these children to have a quota of service in order to graduate. I would have to see a link however that could prove to me a kid cannot graduate without having performed community service. I just don't believe that.

As a college requirement. What is wrong with it? Young people stand to gain valuable prospective from it. It is the responsibility of post secondary education to properly prepare a kid for life. To enable them to have interacted with the less fortunate seems to do exactly that in my humble opinion.

This article, in my opinion, fails to live up to his usual billing!

Psychoblues
01-01-2009, 04:42 AM
Excellent analyses, emmie!!!!!!!!!! You have written several posts in just the last 24 hours or so that create great respect from me for you and your thoughts!!!!!!!!!!!! Not that I didn't have repect already but those posts along with others that you have written through the last few years indicates you to be head and shoulders above what I would consider general and average dialogue on this particular website!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now that you have placed youself squarely in the targets of many of the general and average here, can I buy you a last drink?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?


HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

bullypulpit
01-01-2009, 05:50 AM
Once again Sowell is so wrong.

Indeed, and Sowell shows his neo-con roots in his espousing of Milton Friedman's ideals...which amount to little more than social and economic Darwinism. A pity the right-wingers fail to take their professed religious ideals seriously except, of course, when it suits their narrow, dogmatic purposes.

<blockquote>Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. - Matthew 25:40</blockquote>

Missileman
01-01-2009, 07:07 AM
Sowell nails it yet again. The man's grasp of relative philosophies, and his ability to get to the nub of a matter with a few words, is legendary. Here, the most salutory statement is the very first paragraph in the article.

Or as Ronald Reagan once succinctly put it, "It's not that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

----------------------------------

http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2008/12/02/freedom_and_the_left?page=full&comments=true

Freedom and the Left

by Thomas Sowell
Tuesday, December 02, 2008

Most people on the left are not opposed to freedom. They are just in favor of all sorts of things that are incompatible with freedom.

Freedom ultimately means the right of other people to do things that you do not approve of.

While I agree with the writer about his points on "required" community service, his lead in is laughable.

I can't think of a group more opposed to people being allowed to do things they disapprove of than the religious right.

Psychoblues
01-01-2009, 07:12 AM
Ain't that a damned fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!



While I agree with the writer about his points on "required" community service, his lead in is laughable.

I can't think of a group more opposed to people being allowed to do things they disapprove of than the religious right.

And an awful shame!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

Kathianne
01-01-2009, 07:53 AM
Hmmm! Ok... Well....... I'm gonna suprise y'all for a change!


I don't care for the article either! Sowell's ignorance as it applies to homeless people is smug and disconcerning. I'm a Libertarian and believe in every man for himself and his family however I am an advocate of community service.

Now while I am certainly no advocate of forces service by children, I do not see anything wrong with adolescent teens doing work of this type if they so choose. Sowell's analogy that all homeless people are drug addicts is incorrect. Yes, they urinate outside, where the he;; e;se are they going to go. Does one think they enjoy it.

Furthermore, not only students, but many folks get a return on their selfless input of time to others. I have done community work all my life. Let's compare. What is the difference in what exact type of volunteer work is being done. If it is volunteer or community work, it obviously needs to be done is my thinking. In 2001, along with many others, a few teenagers included, I helped fund and run a shelter for children. I can't go into much about it due to it's sensative nature but I will say that without the volunteers it would never had gotten off the ground.

Homelessness is a serious problem in our country and I take issue with Sowell's selfishness, as it is displayed in his written opinion. His supposed most important question asks, what qualifies teachers to judge what activities are considered worthy for students? Well..... what disqualifies them then. All he did was ask the question, he didn't even lend a reputable shred of opinion as to why not.

I would wonder what his opinion would be like about helping feeding homeless people on Thanksgiving. I mean hell.... families do it together. If a student engages in an activity that helps homeless people such as tutoring, teaching English, health care or any other, aren;t they then helping to fight the peoblem? Sowell would elect to just let it go!

I am a fan of Sowell, agree with alot of what he writes and says however I am a realist Libertarian. To me, it is our befelt obligation to help our fellow man. A true Libertarian understands that we aren't just about a philosophy that says I wanna keep mine and not be obligated to you. That is how I feel legally, but socially I am a true advocate of community service. It's what strengthens our foundation as a race of compassionate humans who can elect to give and or serve without government to manage it.

I can relate to his basic point that government shouldn't force these children to have a quota of service in order to graduate. I would have to see a link however that could prove to me a kid cannot graduate without having performed community service. I just don't believe that.

As a college requirement. What is wrong with it? Young people stand to gain valuable prospective from it. It is the responsibility of post secondary education to properly prepare a kid for life. To enable them to have interacted with the less fortunate seems to do exactly that in my humble opinion.

This article, in my opinion, fails to live up to his usual billing!

When something is a 'requirement' it's not volunteering, in fact since school is compulsory through at least 16 years, seems it may be looked at as forced labor.

Schools may offer instead some sort of 'work/volunteer' option for credit, that would be ok.

Psychoblues
01-01-2009, 08:00 AM
16 years? Compulsory? What am I missing, Kat?!?!??!?!??!??!?!?!?!


HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I see you're drinking coffee, need a re-fill or a warm-up?!??!??!?!?!?!?!??!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

5stringJeff
01-01-2009, 09:04 AM
Indeed, and Sowell shows his neo-con roots in his espousing of Milton Friedman's ideals...which amount to little more than social and economic Darwinism. A pity the right-wingers fail to take their professed religious ideals seriously except, of course, when it suits their narrow, dogmatic purposes.

<blockquote>Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. - Matthew 25:40</blockquote>

"Right-wingers" and those who support economic liberty voluntarily serve their communities, both through time and money. The American Left is the one who wants to use the power of the State to mandate it. Jesus didn't say, Inasmuch as your government forces you to have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren; He says, Inasmuch as ye have done it.

Psychoblues
01-01-2009, 09:12 AM
You assume a lot about the American Left, jeff, and most of it appears to be completely wrong.




"Right-wingers" and those who support economic liberty voluntarily serve their communities, both through time and money. The American Left is the one who wants to use the power of the State to mandate it. Jesus didn't say, Inasmuch as your government forces you to have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren; He says, Inasmuch as ye have done it.

And assuming what you think Jesus meant is as blasphemous as denying his very name.


HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can I get you something to cool the jets?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

Kathianne
01-01-2009, 12:25 PM
16 years? Compulsory? What am I missing, Kat?!?!??!?!??!??!?!?!?!


HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I see you're drinking coffee, need a re-fill or a warm-up?!??!??!?!?!?!?!??!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

From the age of 6 to 16. ;) But you knew that!

Psychoblues
01-01-2009, 12:29 PM
Now you have me counting on my fingres and toes, Kat!!!!!!!!!




From the age of 6 to 16. ;) But you knew that!

Is that the proper way for a newly accused neo con to cipher?!?!?!??!?!?!?!!


HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Java?!?!?!?!?!??!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

Kathianne
01-01-2009, 12:37 PM
Now you have me counting on my fingres and toes, Kat!!!!!!!!!





Is that the proper way for a newly accused neo con to cipher?!?!?!??!?!?!?!!


HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Java?!?!?!?!?!??!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

Mad me laugh! Can't rep though!