Amish homeowners: Religion trumps building codes

[LiberalNation]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081213/ap_on_re_us/amish_building_codes;_ylt=AsuaLxew4hHJepmI9lUZ6qRv zwcF

TOWN OF FRANKLIN, Wis. – Daniel Borntreger's home looks like hundreds of other Wisconsin farmhouses: two-story A-frame, porch, clothes on the line.

But his home could cost him thousands of dollars in fines. Borntreger, an Amish farmer, built the house himself according to Amish tradition — but without a building permit.

His case is among at least 18 legal actions brought against Amish residents in Wisconsin and New York in the past year and a half for building without proper permits, according to court records, attorneys and advocates for the Amish.

The cases have sparked local debates about where religion ends and government begins. Amish advocates — the Amish religion precludes them from defending themselves physically or legally — argue the Amish belief that they must live apart from the world trumps local regulations.

"The permit itself might not be so bad, but to change your lifestyle to have to get one, that's against our convictions," Borntreger said as he sat in his kitchen with his wife, Ruth.

But local authorities say the Amish must obey the law.

"They just go ahead and don't listen to any of the laws that are affecting anybody else. It's quite a problem when you got people next door required to get permits and the Amish don't have to get them," said Gary Olson, a county supervisor in central Wisconsin's Jackson County, where Borntreger lives.

The Amish emigrated from central Europe to Pennsylvania in the early 1700s. Also known as the "Plain People," the Amish believe they must live a simple, nonviolent life. Many reject electricity, indoor plumbing and cars.

In Pennsylvania, home to a large Amish population, more liberal-leaning congregations have lobbied successfully for exemptions in the state building code, including permission to forego electricity and quality-graded lumber, said Frank Howe, chairman of the board of supervisors in Leacok township in Lancaster County.

Officials try to keep the Amish informed about what they can and can't do, and most conform, Howe said. He didn't believe his board had ever taken an Amish resident to court over building violations.

"You try to work with both sides," Howe said. "(We tell them) this is what we need you to do so everyone can go home and relax."

The Amish population has nearly doubled in the U.S. over the last 15 years, growing to 227,000 this year, according to estimates from Elizabethtown College's Young Center for Anabaptist and Pietist Studies. As the Amish look for new farmland, conservative congregations have migrated into states that haven't seen them before, said Karen Johnson-Weiner, an Amish expert at the State University of New York at Potsdam.

That sets up conflict between building officials with little experience dealing with their beliefs and conservative Amish who aren't familiar with the codes or don't want to compromise, Johnson-Weiner said.

Municipal attorneys in Hammond, a town of about 300 people in upstate New York, cited Joseph Swartzentruber and Henry Mast in August for building houses without a permit. That case is pending. Hammond attorney Fred Paddock declined to comment.

In Morristown, a town of about 450 people just north of Hammond, town attorney Andrew Silver has brought 13 actions against the Amish for not abiding by building codes. They're pending, too.

Silver declined comment except to say the town is treating the Amish as it would any homeowner who violates building codes.

In Wisconsin, authorities in Black River Falls, a city of 3,600 people about 130 miles northwest of Madison, have filed at least four cases against area Amish involving permit violations.

One action ended in April when a judge fined Samuel S. Stoltzfus $9,450 for building a house and driveway without permits. In July the same judge levied a $10,600 fine against Daniel Borntreger. Another pending action accuses Samuel F. Stolzfus of building two houses without permits.

Stoltzfus believed signing a permit would amount to lying because he wouldn't follow parts of the code that violate his religion, said Robert Greene, an attorney with the National Committee for Amish Religious Freedom, which has intervened in his case.

Custom-built homes are allowed in Wisconsin as long as the plans meet code standards, but apparently the Amish don't understand that, said Paul Millis, the attorney suing the Amish in Jackson County

[avatar4321]

i have to side with the Amish here. I dont like the concept of building codes. I dont think people should be allowed to tell others what they can or cant do with their property.

[LiberalNation]

Well, building codes do have some saftey purposes but the law in this case looks bad going after the amish who weren't hurting anyone. The law is supposed to apply equaly tho and the amish will lose this fight. If ordinary citizens have to buy permits and meet the building code, so should they.

[darin]

If building codes and permits were about 'safety' they'd be free.

I'm on the side of the Amish here.

[Noir]

Whether you think there should be codes or not is a side issue, the laws are in place, I'm sure these people knew that it was the law, and they ignored it, they broke the law they'll pay the price, just lime anyone else.

As for if there should be building permits or not, I believe there should be rules and guidelines as to what can be built and where.

[avatar4321]

Whether you think there should be codes or not is a side issue, the laws are in place, I'm sure these people knew that it was the law, and they ignored it, they broke the law they'll pay the price, just lime anyone else.

As for if there should be building permits or not, I believe there should be rules and guidelines as to what can be built and where.

What's the point of owning property if you have to pay to use it?

[Psychoblues]

Ignorance of the law is no excuse or so I've been told by those exercising their authority to enforce it.

The Amish, a normally peaceful and congenial bunch, can be obstinate and neighbors from hell. The inspector admits attempting to work with them but it appears the Amish are not interested in cooperation with the inspectors. There are many things that the inspectors can and will assist in construction techniques and safety considerations. The Amish just want to be hard headed about it but would raise holy hell if they thought someone was somehow infringing on their self perceived rights to infringe on others rights and safety. I have seen it close up and in action.

Anybody up for a toast to the Amish?!?!??!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

[5stringJeff]

Why do people need the government's permission to build a sturcture on their own property in the first place? If a place is zoned for a certain type of building (and everywhere on earth, outside of Houston, TX, is zoned), then let them build. If they build with unsafe materials, then their homeowner's insurance will be more expensive, which is a price incentive (imagine that!) to build with safe materials nad/or to a certain specification. Regardless, people should have the freedom to build without asking Mother May I. It's OUR LAND, not the government's land.

[Psychoblues]

The government is concerned with safety and construction standards for the entire population, jeffie, not just the idiots that would otherwise put up a hogs pen of a house on "their own property".




Why do people need the government's permission to build a sturcture on their own property in the first place? If a place is zoned for a certain type of building (and everywhere on earth, outside of Houston, TX, is zoned), then let them build. If they build with unsafe materials, then their homeowner's insurance will be more expensive, which is a price incentive (imagine that!) to build with safe materials nad/or to a certain specification. Regardless, people should have the freedom to build without asking Mother May I. It's OUR LAND, not the government's land.

In addition, you cite the interests of the insurance companies. The insurance companies rely heavily on the codes, permits and inspections of the governmental organizations that perform and issue them. Can you imagine the nightmare and cost of each company attempting to formulate their own standards and inspections? I think your argument is a non issue at this point.

How 'bout a saspirilly?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

[DragonStryk72]

Actually, I have a question: What are the building codes? I mean, think about it for a moment, how far would these codes go against their beliefs?

We would probably view it as sensible these days that a house posses electricity, running water, and heat for the winter months (this being from a gas or electric source in most all instances). Now, by their religion, these are all a no go, given the technological nature of them, so that becomes a question of constitutionality of their case. The Amish are very, very clear about their standpoint on tech- no, in all instances. Now, somehow, Pennsylvania manages to have the lion's share of the Amish, but we never have these problems (Hell, they even having Carriage parking at some of the Wal-Marts there), so what's the big deal in WI, and NY?

[Psychoblues]

I don't think the inspectors or the codes insist that you have any of what you are speaking, ds'72. I think their observations were and are that the structures may not be suitable for safe human habitation and that they cause other problems like sewage, drainage, or other problems with surrounding properties.


Actually, I have a question: What are the building codes? I mean, think about it for a moment, how far would these codes go against their beliefs?

We would probably view it as sensible these days that a house posses electricity, running water, and heat for the winter months (this being from a gas or electric source in most all instances). Now, by their religion, these are all a no go, given the technological nature of them, so that becomes a question of constitutionality of their case. The Amish are very, very clear about their standpoint on tech- no, in all instances. Now, somehow, Pennsylvania manages to have the lion's share of the Amish, but we never have these problems (Hell, they even having Carriage parking at some of the Wal-Marts there), so what's the big deal in WI, and NY?

As I said earlier in this thread, the Amish are generally pretty cooperative and almost always abide whatever laws and requirements that any government places on them. But, not always and then they can sometimes be genuine assholes and unappreciative of the fact that their lifestyles are negatively impacting others that have no such beliefs.

That's when common sense and reasonable arbitration is required. And therein lies the problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can I get you a cool one?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

[avatar4321]

The government is concerned with safety and construction standards for the entire population, jeffie, not just the idiots that would otherwise put up a hogs pen of a house on "their own property".





In addition, you cite the interests of the insurance companies. The insurance companies rely heavily on the codes, permits and inspections of the governmental organizations that perform and issue them. Can you imagine the nightmare and cost of each company attempting to formulate their own standards and inspections? I think your argument is a non issue at this point.

How 'bout a saspirilly?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

That was the point of Nuisance laws.

Let's just admit the truth. Its not about safety. Building codes are about two things: Taxes and power.

[Psychoblues]

"Let's"? You got a mouse in your pocket, a'21?



That was the point of Nuisance laws.

Let's just admit the truth. Its not about safety. Building codes are about two things: Taxes and power.

You obviously know little to nothing about building codes and standards so how about "let's" realize that fact and agree that you are an idiot without the compunction to rectify your ignorance on your own. Obviously the assistance of others escapes you for some contrary reason?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Can I get you cool glass of water? If you can't afford the liquor, whether I pay for it or not, then please don't order it.

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

[bullypulpit]

i have to side with the Amish here. I dont like the concept of building codes. I dont think people should be allowed to tell others what they can or cant do with their property.

Building codes were established to keep unscrupulous builders from turning out an unsafe product. The Amish stand head an shoulders above even the most scrupulous commercial builder regarding the craftsmanship and quality of their buildings.

[Mr. P]

I don't know what they're building in WI. I'm only familiar with the Amish in N.E. Ohio. Those folk live their entire life on farms pretty much surrounded by other Amish farms. They're NOT looking to re-sell their property to the English (public).
If the WI Amish are doing the same, I say let em be.

[Yurt]

If building codes and permits were about 'safety' they'd be free.
I'm on the side of the Amish here.

good point dmp! this is another good point from the article.


The Amish advocates have a strong argument, said University of Michigan law professor Douglas Laycock.

The government must show a strong reason why regulations outweigh religious freedoms, he said. Building officials argue permits and codes ensure structural safety, but Amish homes aren't falling down, he said.

"People aren't getting hurt," he said.

[Abbey Marie]

I don't know what they're building in WI. I'm only familiar with the Amish in N.E. Ohio. Those folk live their entire life on farms pretty much surrounded by other Amish farms. They're NOT looking to re-sell their property to the English (public).
If the WI Amish are doing the same, I say let em be.

I agree with you, P. It's not like the Amish are building structures for the public to traipse through. If so, I would be for some level of enforcement. And I doubt the Amish are going to be suing each other over any injuries due to a building code violation. I say leave them alone over this point.

Anyway, I am willing to bet that the Amish only build things that are structurally sound. They are after all, master woodworkers. We bought a dining room set from them, and it is a thing of beauty and very solid.

[DragonStryk72]

I don't think the inspectors or the codes insist that you have any of what you are speaking, ds'72. I think their observations were and are that the structures may not be suitable for safe human habitation and that they cause other problems like sewage, drainage, or other problems with surrounding properties.



As I said earlier in this thread, the Amish are generally pretty cooperative and almost always abide whatever laws and requirements that any government places on them. But, not always and then they can sometimes be genuine assholes and unappreciative of the fact that their lifestyles are negatively impacting others that have no such beliefs.

That's when common sense and reasonable arbitration is required. And therein lies the problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Psychoblues

Um, dude, seriously, no one is being negatively impacted by their existence, they really aren't. They keep to themselves, use no electricity, nor indoor plumbing, or just about other modern convenience there is. They're strictly non-violent, I mean, come on, at some point, you gotta just admit that they're not negatively impacting people.

Seriously though, NY I know, from living there 18 years, that the building codes do require the stuff I've mentioned. For most any other NYer it's no problem, but for them, they don't want those things in their lives.

[Psychoblues]

Um, dude, seriously, I've lived with the Amish up close and personal. They do negatively impact other people's lives occasionally and they generally have no remorse especially when they do not understand how their activities are frowned upon by the neighboring communities of otherwise peaceful communities.



Um, dude, seriously, no one is being negatively impacted by their existence, they really aren't. They keep to themselves, use no electricity, nor indoor plumbing, or just about other modern convenience there is. They're strictly non-violent, I mean, come on, at some point, you gotta just admit that they're not negatively impacting people.

Seriously though, NY I know, from living there 18 years, that the building codes do require the stuff I've mentioned. For most any other NYer it's no problem, but for them, they don't want those things in their lives.

They resent the Health Department shutting down their food sales even though they have been clearly implicated in food poisoning epidemics, they resent the Health Department insisting they correct their waste disposal techniques and apparati even though it is clear they are negatively impacting and polluting surrounding environments, they resent advise being given them concerning the routes and easements set aside for their transportation (horse and buggy) arrangements and I could go on and on about some of the disagreements that I have knowledge of that the Amish have with about everybody else except each other.

I do not condemn their society. I am actually pleasantly fascinated by them and the lives they live. I have done a considerable amount of business with them and I am practically always enormously satisfied with the quality of their work and the financial considerations thereof. My purpose in this thread is to simply point out that they are not above the law and they are certainly not "always" good and welcome neighbors. Like about everybody, they do make mistakes and they are generally not averse to constructive criticism but occasionally they are. Did you bother to think about what I said earlier in this thread?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

[Yurt]

Um, dude, seriously, I've lived with the Amish up close and personal. They do negatively impact other people's lives occasionally and they generally have no remorse especially when they do not understand how their activities are frowned upon by the neighboring communities of otherwise peaceful communities.




They resent the Health Department shutting down their food sales even though they have been clearly implicated in food poisoning epidemics, they resent the Health Department insisting they correct their waste disposal techniques and apparati even though it is clear they are negatively impacting and polluting surrounding environments, they resent advise being given them concerning the routes and easements set aside for their transportation (horse and buggy) arrangements and I could go on and on about some of the disagreements that I have knowledge of that the Amish have with about everybody else except each other.

I do not condemn their society. I am actually pleasantly fascinated by them and the lives they live. I have done a considerable amount of business with them and I am practically always enormously satisfied with the quality of their work and the financial considerations thereof. My purpose in this thread is to simply point out that they are not above the law and they are certainly not "always" good and welcome neighbors. Like about everybody, they do make mistakes and they are generally not averse to constructive criticism but occasionally they are. Did you bother to think about what I said earlier in this thread?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

:link:

i sure hope you don't link to one incident and just so you know, implicated is not guilty, so not sure your point

[Psychoblues]

I'm not certain that these things would make the news to any large extent, yuk, and they certainly don't happen very often and are most always quite local and locally handled. But you miss the point, don't you?!?!??!??!?!?!?!?!?


:link:

i sure hope you don't link to one incident and just so you know, implicated is not guilty, so not sure your point

Nothing new about that. You've destroyed many threads with your failures to understand and senseless arguments about things that have little or nothing to do with what is being discussed.

Can I get you something to assist your senseless mulling?!?!?!?!???!?!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

[manu1959]

building codes are about creating a minimum standard of safety for a structure.....

[Psychoblues]

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


building codes are about creating a minimum standard of safety for a structure.....

Why are so many here confused about it?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!??!?

Can I get you a refreshment?

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

[Psychoblues]

However, other considerations exist as well, wouldn't you agree, m'59?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

[Yurt]

I'm not certain that these things would make the news to any large extent, yuk, and they certainly don't happen very often and are most always quite local and locally handled. But you miss the point, don't you?!?!??!??!?!?!?!?!?



Nothing new about that. You've destroyed many threads with your failures to understand and senseless arguments about things that have little or nothing to do with what is being discussed.

Can I get you something to assist your senseless mulling?!?!?!?!???!?!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

genius, YOU brought it up, so by your logic, YOU have destroyed this thread because if my replying to something YOU brought up has little or nothing to do with what is beign discussed overall in the thread, then YOU destroyed this thread by going off topic :poke:

translation:

psydeshow admits he made stuff up, when called on it, attacks yurt to deflect from his bullshit

[DragonStryk72]

I'm not certain that these things would make the news to any large extent, yuk, and they certainly don't happen very often and are most always quite local and locally handled. But you miss the point, don't you?!?!??!??!?!?!?!?!?



Nothing new about that. You've destroyed many threads with your failures to understand and senseless arguments about things that have little or nothing to do with what is being discussed.

Can I get you something to assist your senseless mulling?!?!?!?!???!?!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

Almost all food poisoning occurs locally, since few places serve the same batch of food to the entire nation, and yes, even places like Chick-Fil-A have had food poisoning runs, so then we should stop all restaurants, and all cooking for that matter, since there is always a chance for food poisoning. They are handled locally because it's a local problem, but you make it sound like the Amish are just shy of Ebola. epidemics are not local, handled locally, and done with. Words mean stuff, PB, you can't just throw them around.

Now, as to the rest, how is crapping or peeing onto or into the ground, done by every animal on the face of the earth since the dawn of life, a harm to the environment? urine is a natural sterilizer, with fecal matter being a natural fertilizer.

[Psychoblues]

Almost all food poisoning occurs locally, since few places serve the same batch of food to the entire nation, and yes, even places like Chick-Fil-A have had food poisoning runs, so then we should stop all restaurants, and all cooking for that matter, since there is always a chance for food poisoning. They are handled locally because it's a local problem, but you make it sound like the Amish are just shy of Ebola. epidemics are not local, handled locally, and done with. Words mean stuff, PB, you can't just throw them around.

Now, as to the rest, how is crapping or peeing onto or into the ground, done by every animal on the face of the earth since the dawn of life, a harm to the environment? urine is a natural sterilizer, with fecal matter being a natural fertilizer.

:lol:

You need to go back and read the entirety of what I have had to say in this thread and on this topic, ds'72. Your bullshit is just that, bullshit.

Meanwhile, can I interest you in a cool one?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

[manu1959]

However, other considerations exist as well, wouldn't you agree, m'59?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

the first chapter of the code describes its purpose and, as you say, the goals are many ......

[Psychoblues]

I really don't know what is actually going on in this case, m'59 but I believe it has to do with at least one of 3 different things.



the first chapter of the code describes its purpose and, as you say, the goals are many ......

1. An overly zealous code inspector/official
2. An obstinance on the part of a newly made Amish elder that doesn't understand the codes, permits, etc. and resents being instructed
3. An overly zealous news reporter that has chosen this story to report and is making much ado about nothing

As I have stated earlier in this thread, I know many in the Amish communities and they are most generally very meticulous in the things they do however simple the task might be and they are generally very good in abiding the laws of the places/counties/states etc. they choose to build their communities. They do pay taxes and are very honest about their reporting of income and property values. They also usually demonstrate a strong propensity to investigate when they have any doubts about what might be expected of them insofar as laws, codes, taxes, etc. are concerned. On the other hand, shit happens and therein lies a universal problem?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?

How about a cool one?!?!??!??!?!?!??!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

[manu1959]

I really don't know what is actually going on in this case, m'59 but I believe it has to do with at least one of 3 different things.
1. An overly zealous code inspector/official
2. An obstinance on the part of a newly made Amish elder that doesn't understand the codes, permits, etc. and resents being instructed
3. An overly zealous news reporter that has chosen this story to report and is making much ado about nothing

As I have stated earlier in this thread, I know many in the Amish communities and they are most generally very meticulous in the things they do however simple the task might be and they are generally very good in abiding the laws of the places/counties/states etc. they choose to build their communities. They do pay taxes and are very honest about their reporting of income and property values. They also usually demonstrate a strong propensity to investigate when they have any doubts about what might be expected of them insofar as laws, codes, taxes, etc. are concerned. On the other hand, shit happens and therein lies a universal problem?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?

How about a cool one?!?!??!??!?!?!??!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

code folks and reporters are over zelous by definition......as for the amish.....they don't have to live in a country with codes and laws.....they choose to live here therefore they made the choice to abide by the laws of the country.....further there is a section of the code called alternate means and methods all they need to do is have their alternate ideas approved in advance and they are good to go.....it can even be done after the fact.....how do i know this....i have done it.....

[Psychoblues]

code folks and reporters are over zelous by definition......as for the amish.....they don't have to live in a country with codes and laws.....they choose to live here therefore they made the choice to abide by the laws of the country.....further there is a section of the code called alternate means and methods all they need to do is have their alternate ideas approved in advance and they are good to go.....it can even be done after the fact.....how do i know this....i have done it.....

I think I already said that I believe they do so quite willingly and cooperatively. They are normally very peaceful and law abiding.

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues