what in our society has destroyed our morality most

[actsnoblemartin]

a. porn
b. materialism
c. divorce
d. homosexual marriage
e. abortion
f. something different, ill explain
g. none of the above

[darin]

Dr. Spock Parenting. Liberalism

[Des]

Materialism.

[actsnoblemartin]

Dr. Spock Parenting. Liberalism

I have no idea what dr. spock parenting is?

and what about liberalism has ruined our culture?

I certainly think we have lost our virtue and innocent.

we seem conditioned to want to degrade ourselves and others.

I think it started in the 1960's, and in i dont know when it got really bad, but in the 70's it seem like we were still at our highest point of valour and decency.

We didnt have so much porn, and abortion running rampant.

we didnt have so much political correctness.

with all due respect to my liberal friends, i truly believe life was created by god, and to take god's job into your owns hands by killing a helpless baby, is not a choice but telling god that I have no respect for the life you created.

[Des]

Pregnancy and childbirth are two things the government should never be able to regulate. Ever. Abortions have been around as long as people have been around, they've always been "rampant"...they aren't just a new discovery.

It's a choice not to look at porn, too. And not get divorced.

[actsnoblemartin]

With all due respect to most of my conservative friends, I cannot support the death penalty. I use the same principles, though i do not discount that the bible does say and eye for and I, and i dont discount that good people can support abortion and the death penalty or for that matter any issue.

I simply cant support an issue I feel is morally wrong, i.e. the death penalty. God should take life, not humans, and when humans disobey, they should be judged by god, which is not to say they should not be punished by our judicial system, but i believe god gives and takes life, and if someone doesnt want a baby, they shouldnt have sex, i believe it is revenge but sincerely understand the bible does make it clear their is another way to see the death penalty.

[Yurt]

sin

if you believe teh bible, things are going to worse before jesus comes. last time he caused a flood, this time we get to go home.

[Des]

Wait, I change my answer to religion. Or people. Just people.

[actsnoblemartin]

I have a hard time saying lets have the government regulate anything to be honest, because they do such a great job at it

:lol:

but even though im not sure how i feel about the government getting involved. I do believe each states voters should have the right to vote if they want abortion legal in their own state, so if california wants abortion's and texas doesnt. Then respect each individual states rights, and get the federal government out of it, while respect that some people dont want abortion.

I respectfully wait for your answer on that.

I believe porn is a lesser form of a drug, for some people it is very addicting, i dont know how addicting, but sex, nicotine, coffee, food, can also be addicting, and sometimes, while the answer is simple, its not easy to stop.


Pregnancy and childbirth are two things the government should never be able to regulate. Ever. Abortions have been around as long as people have been around, they've always been "rampant"...they aren't just a new discovery.

It's a choice not to look at porn, too. And not get divorced.

[Des]

I have a hard time saying lets have the government regulate anything to be honest, because they do such a great job at it

:lol:

but even though im not sure how i feel about the government getting involved. I do believe each states voters should have the right to vote if they want abortion legal in their own state, so if california wants abortion's and texas doesnt. Then respect each individual states rights, and get the federal government out of it, while respect that some people dont want abortion.

I respectfully wait for your answer on that.

I believe porn is a lesser form of a drug, for some people it is very addicting, i dont know how addicting, but sex, nicotine, coffee, food, can also be addicting, and sometimes, while the answer is simple, its not easy to stop.

I think any issue related to a womans body, especially during pregnancy and childbirth and the events leading up to it, are medical and personal issues that other people and the government need to stay out of, 100 percent. Women have been having babies and aborting them since...women have been having babies and aborting them. It sounds terrible, but it's a part of human nature that you just can't turn into some medical terms and label "illegal". People will still have abortions. There are herbs you can take to abort a child. Protest it, educate about it, require a person has to see the ultrasound beforehand if you want...but don't regulate something as deeply personal and animalistic in nature as a pregnant woman. It will never work.

I believe internet debate forums can be addicting, too. That doesn't mean they are destroying our society. Giving in to or failing to do something about an addiction is the issue. You can become addicted to anything, even things you need to live, like food and sex (yes, I realize that's debatable ;). I think porn has contributed to unrealistic body images in women particularly and expectations about sex...but I don't think that or abortion are reasons society seems to have come undone.

[manu1959]

mass media in all its forms.....it desensitizes the weak into thinking immoral acts are moral.....

[April15]

HEY, YURT,
I like it here, this is my home!
The greed generated by Madison Avenue advertisers. They spawned the need for greed. Along with cheap media, be it news paper or magazine or TV. Until they came along people had no need to be better than the Jone's.

[Yurt]

HEY, YURT,
I like it here, this is my home!
The greed generated by Madison Avenue advertisers. They spawned the need for greed. Along with cheap media, be it news paper or magazine or TV. Until they came along people had no need to be better than the Jone's.

okay, enjoy your home here, don't worry, jesus won't force you to go to his home :cool:

[Trigg]

Honestly I think divorce has hurt our society the most. Yes, there are legitimate reasons for splitting up, but many just don't want to put in the time it takes to make a marriage work.

I'm shocked at the number of friends my kids have who need to split their time between households.

Sadly to many people get married with the idea that it isn't going to last forever. It isn't "till death do us part" anymore, now it's "till I get tired of you".

[April15]

okay, enjoy your home here, don't worry, jesus won't force you to go to his home :cool:Kool!

[Noir]

It's an impossible question with no answer.

Socity is only general term, it is ever changing and ever evolving, back 150 years ago people would have said that dancing was ruining morals and socity, yet that was simply society changing as ever.

I don't think I have been able to fully explian what I mean but that's it in a nutshell.

[April15]

It's an impossible question with no answer.

Socity is only general term, it is ever changing and ever evolving, back 150 years ago people would have said that dancing was ruining morals and socity, yet that was simply society changing as ever.

I don't think I have been able to fully explian what I mean but that's it in a nutshell.150 years ago people did not tend to migrate and as such were not abreast of mores in other areas. The tendency was, at that time, to follow and obey the elders.
It is the ability of knowledge from other regions that has given rise to social change. That did not happen until the late 1800's with the advent of steam power.

[Noir]

right, I don't want to really dwell on the 150 years thing, that was just a side note to illustrate what I was trying to say, which is that, in society there is always change, and change is often connected with a breaking of morals or with the collapse of society itself.

[Kathianne]

It's an impossible question with no answer.

Socity is only general term, it is ever changing and ever evolving, back 150 years ago people would have said that dancing was ruining morals and socity, yet that was simply society changing as ever.

I don't think I have been able to fully explian what I mean but that's it in a nutshell.

Some, not all. The Puritans for certain. But even on the Mayflower there were people that disagreed, the reason for the compact.

[manu1959]

stuff like this...............

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_120108WAB_atheist_holiday_display_KC.201f8962.h tml

OLYMPIA, Wash. - An atheist group has unveiled an anti-religion placard in the state Capitol, joining a Christian Nativity scene and "holiday tree" on display during December.

snip

the placard reads: "At this season of the Winter Solstice may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

[Noir]

stuff like this...............

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_120108WAB_atheist_holiday_display_KC.201f8962.h tml

OLYMPIA, Wash. - An atheist group has unveiled an anti-religion placard in the state Capitol, joining a Christian Nativity scene and "holiday tree" on display during December.

snip

the placard reads: "At this season of the Winter Solstice may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

So you ware saying that freedom of expression is the cause...rightyo.

[manu1959]

So you ware saying that freedom of expression is the cause...rightyo.

no....but being insulting is.....kinda like your post......

[Noir]

no....but being insulting is.....kinda like your post......

Indeed, so I'm to blame, amiright?

Those people that you used as an example were just freely expressing themselves, as hey do not believe in a heaven and hell ect. How is that insulting? That would be like me being insulted by a man on the street holdin a sign saying 'repent your sins with God and you will join him in his kingdom' (I admit he would have to have quite a big sign to say all of that but it's just an example) just because I don't agree with him doesn't mean he is insulting me, the same applies to you and the group you cited.

[manu1959]

Indeed, so I'm to blame, amiright?

Those people that you used as an example were just freely expressing themselves, as hey do not believe in a heaven and hell ect. How is that insulting? That would be like me being insulted by a man on the street holdin a sign saying 'repent your sins with God and you will join him in his kingdom' (I admit he would have to have quite a big sign to say all of that but it's just an example) just because I don't agree with him doesn't mean he is insulting me, the same applies to you and the group you cited.

how is a sign like that appropriate next to a christmas display.....

[Noir]

how is a sign like that appropriate next to a christmas display.....

In the same why I could say 'what right does that man with the sign have to march up and down main street' oh yeah, the right to freedom of expression. I must warn you do start to run the risk of being a hypocrit when you try and plea that you are insulted by religious messages around christmas just because they don't conform to the religious messages that you want to see.

But back on topic, you believe that society is losing it's morals because of freedom of expression.

[manu1959]

In the same why I could say 'what right does that man with the sign have to march up and down main street' oh yeah, the right to freedom of expression. I must warn you do start to run the risk of being a hypocrit when you try and plea that you are insulted by religious messages around christmas just because they don't conform to the religious messages that you want to see.

But back on topic, you believe that society is losing it's morals because of freedom of expression.

i find messages such as the atheists group's insulting .... they same way as i find kkk and neo nazi rallies insulting on mlk's birthday .... or ira marches on the aniversary of Omagh... if you want to protect insult expression ... go for it ..... but when they decide to go after you ... don't complain ....

[Kathianne]

In the same why I could say 'what right does that man with the sign have to march up and down main street' oh yeah, the right to freedom of expression. I must warn you do start to run the risk of being a hypocrit when you try and plea that you are insulted by religious messages around christmas just because they don't conform to the religious messages that you want to see.

But back on topic, you believe that society is losing it's morals because of freedom of expression.

Do you recognize that if Christians feel compelled to respond with signs denigrating those with signs, we all lose out? Why can't those wishing to celebrate the birth of Christ, regardless or not of the correct time of year, do so in peace? Same with those wishing to only celebrate the solstice, though they don't go so nuts on the other three?

[Noir]

i find messages such as the atheists group's insulting .... they same way as i find kkk and neo nazi rallies insulting on mlk's birthday .... or ira marches on the aniversary of Omagh... if you want to protect insult expression ... go for it ..... but when they decide to go after you ... don't complain ....

So you are now comparing the group to the Nazis, IRA and the KKK?! hyperbole couldn't begin to describe your thought processes, that somehow bring into line facists, terrorists and racists with those who, as is their right, are freely expressing themeslves.

[April15]

right, I don't want to really dwell on the 150 years thing, that was just a side note to illustrate what I was trying to say, which is that, in society there is always change, and change is often connected with a breaking of morals or with the collapse of society itself.But, you are correct that societies change, it is the speed of change that affects the morals.

[Noir]

Do you recognize that if Christians feel compelled to respond with signs denigrating those with signs, we all lose out? Why can't those wishing to celebrate the birth of Christ, regardless or not of the correct time of year, do so in peace? Same with those wishing to only celebrate the solstice, though they don't go so nuts on the other three?

I don't think they should try and respond with signs that denigrate the other signs, quite the opposite, I feel they should live and let live. However, they should not expect to cry insult when an anti-christain sign is raised. After all, it is christain signs and messages that dominate christamas, they are the ones covering the streets in religious text and so forth, ergo they should not be surprised, nevermind insulted, if there is also anti-christain messages.

[Kathianne]

I don't think they should try and respond with signs that denigrate the other signs, quite the opposite, I feel they should live and let live. However, they should not expect to cry insult when an anti-christain sign is raised. After all, it is christain signs and messages that dominate christamas, they are the ones covering the streets in religious text and so forth, ergo they should not be surprised, nevermind insulted, if there is also anti-christain messages.

I see little or no response against those of pagan/solstice celebrants. From such, I see much. Funny how the minority tries to silence the majority.

[manu1959]

So you are now comparing the group to the Nazis, IRA and the KKK?! hyperbole couldn't begin to describe your thought processes, that somehow bring into line facists, terrorists and racists with those who, as is their right, are freely expressing themeslves.

for every great leader that preaches peace and morality .... gahndi, king and jesus to name tthree .... there is a group that tries to tear them down .....

and when someone such as i who is neither black or christian points out that those attacks are insulting and immoral people like you defend hate speech ...

my guess is you are one of them and need to justify your immoral behavior ....

see ... for every person that is good there is someone that is evil ..... keep defending evil and watch the morality of society to continue to decay for it is easier to be evil than it is to be good .....

[manu1959]

I see little or no response against those of pagan/solstice celebrants. From such, I see much. Funny how the minority tries to silence the majority.


what is the purpose of their display ......

is it to celebrate the atheist religion ......

or is it to tear down those that want to celebrate a religion different than theirs.....

[Noir]

for every great leader that preaches peace and morality .... gahndi, king and jesus to name tthree .... there is a group that tries to tear them down .....

and when someone such as i who is neither black or christian points out that those attacks are insulting and immoral people like you defend hate speech ...

my guess is you are one of them and need to justify your immoral behavior ....

see ... for every person that is good there is someone that is evil ..... keep defending evil and watch the morality of society to continue to decay for it is easier to be evil than it is to be good .....

Yet again you are blaming me for the fall of morality.

Yes, cleary I am one of them, looks like you caught me red handed indeed.

I honestly couldn't care if they want to hold a banner saying there is no god, in the same way that I don't care if someone is holding a banner saying there is a god. To be insulted by such pointless things is beond me.

Edit- as for the whole 'it's Easter to be evil than good' damn right it is, and I go as much out of my way as I can to be good, not for some God, and not for the hope of eternal life, but because it's the decent thing to do. And the thing that pisses me off more than almost anything else are christains that think they are above others because they are christain. They do as they please and gloat at the fact that theyveill be forgiven, some drink to excess, others take drugs, others cheat on there girlfriends and one stole over £6000 from their work, yet in their eyes I am the evil person, becUaw even though I have done none of that, I don't believe in their god, and they can be forgiven.

[manu1959]

Yet again you are blaming me for the fall of morality.

Yes, cleary I am one of them, looks like you caught me red handed indeed.

I honestly couldn't care if they want to hold a banner saying there is no god, in the same way that I don't care if someone is holding a banner saying there is a god. To be insulted by such pointless things is beond me.

how about you drive up to derry on january 30th and march through guildhall with a union jack and see how your freedom of expression works out......

[Noir]

how about you drive up to derry on january 30th and march through guildhall with a union jack and see how your freedom of expression works out......

Lol, so because some scum in LondonDerry would lynch me you think I should stop believing in freedom of expression? They could kick me to death and it would prove nothing other than the fact that they are intolerant *****. However, if I were to see a man walking down my town carrying an Irish flag I would not lynch him, because I'm a decent and tolerent person who believes in freedom of expression, is there somthing wrong in that?

[manu1959]

Lol, so because some scum in LondonDerry would lynch me you think I should stop believing in freedom of expression? They could kick me to death and it would prove nothing other than the fact that they are intolerant *****. However, if I were to see a man walking down my town carrying an Irish flag I would not lynch him, because I'm a decent and tolerent person who believes in freedom of expression, is there somthing wrong in that?

you really don't see that the only point to the atheists poster is to incite .....

it is not promote their cause .... its only purpose is to denigrate the birth of great man ......

their poster is no different than you carrying the union jack through derry or the irish flag through hyde park or any of the other analogies i proposed ....

you don't see it and thus you won't speak out against the injustice and immorality of it ..... so yes .... you are part of the problem .....

[Abbey Marie]

I don't think they should try and respond with signs that denigrate the other signs, quite the opposite, I feel they should live and let live. However, they should not expect to cry insult when an anti-christain sign is raised. After all, it is christain signs and messages that dominate christamas, they are the ones covering the streets in religious text and so forth, ergo they should not be surprised, nevermind insulted, if there is also anti-christain messages.

Placing an insulting atheist sign next to a Nativity has one purpose - to denigrate Christianity. They can freely "express themselves" all over the place, but they chose right there, right then. I think it is a shame that anyone would condone this action under the guise of freedom of speech.

From what I've seen here, I think you are a decent and honest person, so I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you will be able to admit this is true.

[Abbey Marie]

The decline of society cannot be blamed on any one activity/action, like divorce or porn. These are symptoms, not causes.

To get at the cause, you need to look at the big picture. I would say there is a severe shortage of integrity, and it permeates everything. But what caused that? If forced to pick one, it would be secular humanism, and it's attendant lack of a moral compass.

[manu1959]

The decline of society cannot be blamed on any one activity/action, like divorce or porn. The are symptoms, not causes.

To get at the cause, you need to look at the big picture. I would say there is a severe shortage of integrity, and it permeates everything. But what caused that? If forced to pick one, it would be secular humanism, and it's attendant lack of a moral compass.

http://www.americanhumanist.org/about/manifesto2.html

number 12 is going to get them killed by the radical muslims....

[Des]

The decline of society cannot be blamed on any one activity/action, like divorce or porn. The are symptoms, not causes.

To get at the cause, you need to look at the big picture. I would say there is a severe shortage of integrity, and it permeates everything. But what caused that? If forced to pick one, it would be secular humanism, and it's attendant lack of a moral compass.

I disagree...I think the birth of "modern" materialism is one of the main reasons we are seeing things go downhill. It goes hand in hand with other things...like failing to take personal responsibility...but the big picture isn't that hard to miss. I don't really think it has much to do with personal beliefs, just because people are going to act according to their nature regardless of their personal belief system and find a way to justify it, good or bad, or have it justified by society.

[DragonStryk72]

I think any issue related to a womans body, especially during pregnancy and childbirth and the events leading up to it, are medical and personal issues that other people and the government need to stay out of, 100 percent. Women have been having babies and aborting them since...women have been having babies and aborting them. It sounds terrible, but it's a part of human nature that you just can't turn into some medical terms and label "illegal". People will still have abortions. There are herbs you can take to abort a child. Protest it, educate about it, require a person has to see the ultrasound beforehand if you want...but don't regulate something as deeply personal and animalistic in nature as a pregnant woman. It will never work.

I believe internet debate forums can be addicting, too. That doesn't mean they are destroying our society. Giving in to or failing to do something about an addiction is the issue. You can become addicted to anything, even things you need to live, like food and sex (yes, I realize that's debatable ;). I think porn has contributed to unrealistic body images in women particularly and expectations about sex...but I don't think that or abortion are reasons society seems to have come undone.

Just women? Every porno I've watched, the guy looks like he could satisfy a rhinoceros.

Separately, I think materialism is really the main thing, though, because even some of the other things you've mentioned are a part of the materialistic nature of our society. In most cases of abortion, it is the material that gets the trump card over the pregnancy (Yes, I realize there are exceptions, but in the majority, it's material.), things such as financial situation, career (never understood that, since a job is there to support your life, not the other way around), living situation, and even lifestyle (yes, lifestyle has a great deal of material to it.).

Same thing in porn, we are going to gratification of a desire for sex, and people collect it. now, perversely, in collecting porn, you actually generally try to keep the collection small, as opposed to growing it, as with other forms of materialism, it's more about having the right porn.

Divorce is the only on there that isn't directly related to materialism (in most cases), although it can be at times. I do not, however, think that it is responsible for the moral decline. In most cases of divorce, it is for perfectly good reasons, although in some of these cases, it could likely have been fixed somewhere along the way. Divorce is neither moral, nor immoral, really, it just sucks all around, but that does not mean that good doesn't come out of it.

Actually, as I think about it, it's really more of a tie between materialism, and the other great problem of our day: Instant Gratification. Instant gratification shows itself in so many ways, both in material, and non-materialistic ways, but they work together to form a very solid root of our moral trouble.

[avatar4321]

A breakdown of the family unit and a lack of personal responsibility in many of them that stay together.

[Noir]

Placing an insulting atheist sign next to a Nativity has one purpose - to denigrate Christianity. The can freely "express themselves" all over the place, but they chose right there, right then. I think it is a shame that anyone would condone this action under he guise of freedom of speech.

From what I've seen here, I think you are a decent and honest person, so I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you will be able to admit this is true.

Indeed this is a freedom of expression, and one which must be expected, I don't know about your town/city, but I can tell you that my town at the moment the streets are full of christain text, posters and christains themselves preching from the bible. And anyone who is not religious should not be insulted by this, and I am certainly not. But if there was an anti-christain poster set up in main street I'm sure there would be outrage from the christains, inddeed when messages started apearing on buses there was outrage, even though churchs had been using buses to carry ad campains for years. It shows double standards, and only standing up for freedom of expression when it expresses what you feel.

Also if I may ask, you say that it is also were they put it that is insulting, so, if the people who put it there where there a month ago to put it up, and then the christain nativity was placed near it, would the christains who put it there be insulting the non-christains?

It's all a load of tosh, I think we are all big enough to k ow there are differing points of view to almost everything in the world, to be insulted by a sign saying there is no god seems rather odd when compared to the countless signs that will claim there is.

[LOki]

An over-developed sense of entitlement to happiness, and the notion that other human beings are the means to obtaining that entitlement.

[Psychoblues]

So far, so shallow. Carry on, lil' ones.

Psychoblues

[Des]

Indeed this is a freedom of expression, and one which must be expected, I don't know about your town/city, but I can tell you that my town at the moment the streets are full of christain text, posters and christains themselves preching from the bible. And anyone who is not religious should not be insulted by this, and I am certainly not. But if there was an anti-christain poster set up in main street I'm sure there would be outrage from the christains, inddeed when messages started apearing on buses there was outrage, even though churchs had been using buses to carry ad campains for years. It shows double standards, and only standing up for freedom of expression when it expresses what you feel.

Also if I may ask, you say that it is also were they put it that is insulting, so, if the people who put it there where there a month ago to put it up, and then the christain nativity was placed near it, would the christains who put it there be insulting the non-christains?

It's all a load of tosh, I think we are all big enough to k ow there are differing points of view to almost everything in the world, to be insulted by a sign saying there is no god seems rather odd when compared to the countless signs that will claim there is.

I agree that the over the top Christian signs can be annoying. It was disheartening to drive around on my first mothers day to countless signs in my town that said "Thank God for CHRISTIAN Mothers" with the CHRISTIAN bolded and in bright red. Or the signs that tell me I'm going to hell because I don't go to church, or my children are, or that some radio station will SAAAAVE me. It gets a whole "in your face" vibe going that Christians insist others are when displaying another sign. I'm sorry, but in this country, Christians don't understand what it means to have their free speech suppressed...no matter how many idiots complain about nativity scenes.

I have seen some of the signs. I just don't like how they are displayed next to a nativity scene. It doesn't seem...respectful.

[crin63]

You asked 2 different questions Martin. By the way glad to see you.

what in our society has destroyed our morality most

Mostly Liberals by making morality subjective and doing everything they can to remove God from the public arena of ideas. Our country was founded on Biblical morality and those who hate God try to remove him from the equation in all that they do so they feel they can sin with impunity (although they won’t acknowledge that) or think they will not have to deal with Him at all. Those Liberals who do acknowledge God have to re-write, spin or change the word of God to make it fit into their worldviews. Conservatives are culpable for being weak and not fighting against Liberalism at every turn and crossroad.

What has ruined our culture the most?

The indoctrination of our children to believe that America is not special and that America is evil by the PC police and the others who hate America.

[Little-Acorn]

What has ruined our culture the most?

Welfare.

And the society-owes-me-a-living, government-is-here-to-help-me attitudes it nurtured.

Plus the removal of a husband as a necessary unit in the family, now that the government was providing the money to live on.

All done by politicians trying to buy votes, by taking money from people who earned it and giving it to those who didn't.

Sorta like the next President said he wants to do, too.

[Abbey Marie]

What has ruined our culture the most?

Welfare.

And the society-owes-me-a-living, government-is-here-to-help-me attitudes it nurtured.

Plus the removal of a husband as a necessary unit in the family, now that the government was providing the money to live on.

All done by politicians trying to buy votes, by taking money from people who earned it and giving it to those who didn't.

Sorta like the next President said he wants to do, too.

All of which can be the result of the decline of integrity. See what I mean? :)

[Des]

You asked 2 different questions Martin. By the way glad to see you.

what in our society has destroyed our morality most

Mostly Liberals by making morality subjective and doing everything they can to remove God from the public arena of ideas. Our country was founded on Biblical morality and those who hate God try to remove him from the equation in all that they do so they feel they can sin with impunity (although they won’t acknowledge that) or think they will not have to deal with Him at all. Those Liberals who do acknowledge God have to re-write, spin or change the word of God to make it fit into their worldviews. Conservatives are culpable for being weak and not fighting against Liberalism at every turn and crossroad.

What has ruined our culture the most?

The indoctrination of our children to believe that America is not special and that America is evil by the PC police and the others who hate America.

I've never been as reaceful as I am now, until I denounced religion. You can be a good person without a God. I am.

I think the liberal-conservative war is driven by complete misconceptions and fabrications about both sides, and then the other side adopts those ideas and forgets about a very important notion called compromise.

Nobody can indoctrinate your children without your consent.

[crin63]

I've never been as reaceful as I am now, until I denounced religion. You can be a good person without a God. I am.

I think the liberal-conservative war is driven by complete misconceptions and fabrications about both sides, and then the other side adopts those ideas and forgets about a very important notion called compromise.

Nobody can indoctrinate your children without your consent.

What do you base, "good" on? Who's idea of good? Who decides what good is and what isn't? You? Me?

After a drug dealer gets shot and killed it seems like we almost always hear the mom on the news claiming he was a good boy. Same thing with gang-bangers.

Personally I think compromise is a dirty word and want no part in it. I have my beliefs, they are strong and I won't yield unless someone introduces new information, which sheds new light on a subject that I had not previously considered.

My kids go to private school.

[Noir]

I've never been as peaceful as I am now, until I denounced religion. You can be a good person without a God. I am.



I totally concur.

[PostmodernProphet]

I don't think they should try and respond with signs that denigrate the other signs, quite the opposite, I feel they should live and let live. However, they should not expect to cry insult when an anti-christain sign is raised. After all, it is christain signs and messages that dominate christamas, they are the ones covering the streets in religious text and so forth, ergo they should not be surprised, nevermind insulted, if there is also anti-christain messages.

I am puzzled by the contradiction in your post...."I don't think they should try and respond with signs that denigrate the other signs" contrasted with "they should not expect to cry insult when an anti-christain sign is raised".....how is an "anti" sign anything except a "signs that denigrate the other signs".....you condemn one and hail the other as a freedom.......

[PostmodernProphet]

I agree that the over the top Christian signs can be annoying. It was disheartening to drive around on my first mothers day to countless signs in my town that said "Thank God for CHRISTIAN Mothers" with the CHRISTIAN bolded and in bright red. Or the signs that tell me I'm going to hell because I don't go to church, or my children are, or that some radio station will SAAAAVE me. It gets a whole "in your face" vibe going that Christians insist others are when displaying another sign. I'm sorry, but in this country, Christians don't understand what it means to have their free speech suppressed...no matter how many idiots complain about nativity scenes.

I have seen some of the signs. I just don't like how they are displayed next to a nativity scene. It doesn't seem...respectful.

can you explain to me how a sign that says Thank God for Christian Mothers suppresses your free speech?.......you can put up a sign that says thank Allah for Muslim Mothers.....or one that says Thank Nothing for Atheist Mothers.......

[avatar4321]

I've never been as reaceful as I am now, until I denounced religion. You can be a good person without a God. I am.

I think the liberal-conservative war is driven by complete misconceptions and fabrications about both sides, and then the other side adopts those ideas and forgets about a very important notion called compromise.

Nobody can indoctrinate your children without your consent.

Can you be good? really? How can you be good when you reject the standard for what is good? How do you determine that you are still good?

[Noir]

I am puzzled by the contradiction in your post...."I don't think they should try and respond with signs that denigrate the other signs" contrasted with "they should not expect to cry insult when an anti-christain sign is raised".....how is an "anti" sign anything except a "signs that denigrate the other signs".....you condemn one and hail the other as a freedom.......

Not quite PMP, I do not think they should place such signs, chrisatin or otherwise, but I realize that it is their right too, so while I don't favour it I don't really have anything against it.

But I do have something against a group of people who will happily cover the streets in their beliefs, and then be insulted by someone else who has the audacity to try and spread their message when it does conform to the groups beliefs

[Noir]

Can you be good? really? How can you be good when you reject the standard for what is good? How do you determine that you are still good?

So because I am not a christain I can not be a good person?
But a christain who has sex before marraige is?
A christain who takes illegal drugs is?
A christain who steals from there employer is?

But I can never be?

[PostmodernProphet]

But I do have something against a group of people who will happily cover the streets in their beliefs, and then be insulted by someone else who has the audacity to try and spread their message when it does conform to the groups beliefs

works both ways.....as I recall, it's the atheists who take to the courts to get the speech of a particular group banned, not the other way around.....

[PostmodernProphet]

So because I am not a christain I can not be a good person?
But a christain who has sex before marraige is?
A christain who takes illegal drugs is?
A christain who steals from there employer is?

But I can never be?

the question isn't whether a Christian can be "bad"....the question is whether you can be "good".....what is your standard?.....you haven't violated any laws the government set?......you haven't violated what you have accepted as your standard?.....

[crin63]

So because I am not a christain I can not be a good person?
But a christain who has sex before marraige is?
A christain who takes illegal drugs is?
A christain who steals from there employer is?

But I can never be?

So because I am not a christain I can not be a good person?
Not exactly, the Bible says there is none good no not one. Christians have admitted their guilt, turned from their sins and been forgiven if they have genuinely come to Jesus for salvation from sin.

But a christain who has sex before marraige is?
A christain who takes illegal drugs is?
A christain who steals from there employer is?

Anomaly's of sin can happen but if its commonplace I don't believe for a moment the person is a Christian.

[Abbey Marie]

I've never been as reaceful as I am now, until I denounced religion. You can be a good person without a God. I am.

I think the liberal-conservative war is driven by complete misconceptions and fabrications about both sides, and then the other side adopts those ideas and forgets about a very important notion called compromise.

Nobody can indoctrinate your children without your consent.

I firmly believe that our public schools are doing a good bit of indoctrinating these days. There are many threads you can read about it right on this board. Since schooling is mandatory, what do you if you cannot afford private school, or the time off from work to home school?

The answer is, your child will be indoctrinated without your consent.

[Des]

I firmly believe that our public schools are doing a good bit of indoctrinating these days. There are many threads you can read about it right on this board. Since schooling is mandatory, what do you if you cannot afford private school, or the time off from work to home school?

The answer is, your child will be indoctrinated without your consent.

You do something about it. Vote for the members of the school board and actually attend the meeting. Be an involved parent. You cannot tell me that most parents in the system they have a problem with actually do anything more than whine about it, or even know that they are voting for the decision-makers in their childs education.

[Des]

can you explain to me how a sign that says Thank God for Christian Mothers suppresses your free speech?.......you can put up a sign that says thank Allah for Muslim Mothers.....or one that says Thank Nothing for Atheist Mothers.......

You must have misunderstood me. I said the signs were annoying, not that they supressed my free speech. And no, where I live, you cannot put up a sign that says "thank nothing for athiest mothers" lol, without a fight or the sign eventually being torn down. There is a double-standard, people like free speech but forget it doesn't always mean popular speech...Christian speech is popular speech here. Anything else would not be tolerated. Meaning, it IS stupid to put up an athiest sign right next to something Christians hold as a sacred symbol just to make a point, but things like that don't happen often. So I find it funny when Christians get up in arms about their right to free speech being taken away, that's all.

[Abbey Marie]

You do something about it. Vote for the members of the school board and actually attend the meeting. Be an involved parent. You cannot tell me that most parents in the system they have a problem with actually do anything more than whine about it, or even know that they are voting for the decision-makers in their childs education.

Nice sentiment, but I'm afraid it's really just about pie-in-the-sky. I have seen parents in our district try to change some things, like forced busing for example. The school board finds a way to keep doing what they want to do. And your friendly liberal courts will back them up every single time.

In any event, while all this snail's pace "change" is being attempted by us parents, and most likely failing, our children are being indoctrinated. As I said, contrary to your initial claim, our children can be indoctrinated without our consent.

[Des]

What do you base, "good" on? Who's idea of good? Who decides what good is and what isn't? You? Me?

After a drug dealer gets shot and killed it seems like we almost always hear the mom on the news claiming he was a good boy. Same thing with gang-bangers.

Personally I think compromise is a dirty word and want no part in it. I have my beliefs, they are strong and I won't yield unless someone introduces new information, which sheds new light on a subject that I had not previously considered.

My kids go to private school.

Good is something people make. Good=a society in which people can prosper without creating victims.

Look at our concept of good and evil...even as it applies to something as little as spiders. We have an instinctive fear of spiders and animals that can harm us, without remorse, because a predator (or animal defending itself) doesn't feel remorse. Hindsight is a human thing, but we share certain traits with animals. If someone were hurting my children, I wouldn't feel remorse defending them or else I wouldn't be able to do it. Anyway, we link the lack of mercy shown to us by nature to evil, and human traits designed by nature and circumstance as good, eventually leading to a more enlightened society. I don't harm others (leaving out the obvious case of self-defense) because I have those traits built into me. I don't need religion to provide me with an instinctive moral compass I already have. It's a useful tool for some things, like waiting until marriage to have sex...to help avoid lessons that are better not learned the hard way...but I believe we pay for those lessons here and not in some imagined afterlife.

[Des]

Nice sentiment, but I'm afraid it's really just about pie-in-the-sky. I have seen parents in our district try to change some things, like forec busing for example. The school board finds a way to keep doing what they want to do. And your friendly liberal courts will back them up every single time.

In any event, while all this snail's pace "change" is being attempted by us parents, and most likely failing, our children are being indoctrinated. As I said, contrary to your initial claim, our children can be indoctrinated without our consent.

Apathy is sad.

[PostmodernProphet]

You must have misunderstood me. I said the signs were annoying, not that they supressed my free speech. And no, where I live, you cannot put up a sign that says "thank nothing for athiest mothers" lol, without a fight or the sign eventually being torn down. There is a double-standard, people like free speech but forget it doesn't always mean popular speech...Christian speech is popular speech here. Anything else would not be tolerated. Meaning, it IS stupid to put up an athiest sign right next to something Christians hold as a sacred symbol just to make a point, but things like that don't happen often. So I find it funny when Christians get up in arms about their right to free speech being taken away, that's all.

and the fact you find that funny is WHY you have a double standard.....you ignore the fact that the "popular speech" is also free.....where I come from "Peace on Earth" and "God Bless You" and "Thank God for Christian Mothers" is not the equivalent of "Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds".....no matter how many times you toss it through the freedom shaker, it still comes out hateful.....

{and by the way, who WOULD you thank for atheist mothers?......}

[PostmodernProphet]

Apathy is sad.

/who cares....

[Abbey Marie]

Apathy is sad.

Indoctrination is sadder.

[Des]

and the fact you find that funny is WHY you have a double standard.....you ignore the fact that the "popular speech" is also free.....where I come from "Peace on Earth" and "God Bless You" and "Thank God for Christian Mothers" is not the equivalent of "Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds".....no matter how many times you toss it through the freedom shaker, it still comes out hateful.....

{and by the way, who WOULD you thank for atheist mothers?......}

The signs annoy me. They annoy me because I think they are stupid, pointless, and create a line between people who should be getting along. If someone argued the church didn't have a right to display their signs, I wouldn't agree with them. If someone put an athiest billboard next to a church, I wouldn't agree with them for the same reasons. I think it's funny because, especially in the area I live in, anything but Christian sentiments would not be tolerated. Church signs do not always say "peace on earth", sometimes they say hateful things to those who do not believe, but who tolerate it because they understand the value of free speech. Censoring what YOU view as hateful (ignoring the placement for this argument, because I never agreed with that) shows nothing but your double standard.

I would thank myself for being an athiest mother, if I were one, and the knowledge I valued and people I knew who supported me in my life. I'm not athiest, but to everyone, the idea of a god is not the be-all-end all.

[Des]

Indoctrination is sadder.

Only when the parents are aware of it and insist they cannot do anything about it.

[Kathianne]

Our morality is destroyed? I missed that. I still think most thinks it's wrong to kill, granted many don't see abortion in that light.

Most still believe it's wrong to steal, though many kids 'cheat' regularly because they've not been taught that cheating is literally stealing.

[DragonStryk72]

Our morality is destroyed? I missed that. I still think most thinks it's wrong to kill, granted many don't see abortion in that light.

Most still believe it's wrong to steal, though many kids 'cheat' regularly because they've not been taught that cheating is literally stealing.

not destroyed, ruined, yes, close terms, but they are still separate in meaning. Anyhoo, there is a definite decay, or ruining, of the moral waters, and you have to look as far as schools. In order to "protect" children from shame or failure, we now teach class according to the slowest student, instead of allowing those who excel to do so. We actually punish the stronger students in this way, just as we punish competence and hard work in adults with the way in which we tax income, while we reward sloth (Oh, you still haven't been able to find a job after 13 years? well, damn, man, I guess that happens sometimes). So we get exactly what we seem to expect out of our children, and it is not a bright future.

[PostmodernProphet]

Censoring what YOU view as hateful (ignoring the placement for this argument, because I never agreed with that) shows nothing but your double standard.


well, I suppose I have to admit that it is subjective....perhaps not everyone would agree that accusing someone of enslaving minds is hateful......but quite frankly, I wouldn't want to know anyone well, who didn't.....

[Hobbit]

I think the poll is flawed in its very nature. The things listed are not causes. They're symptoms of a society that has stopped admitting that there is such a thing as objective morality.

[Abbey Marie]

I think the poll is flawed in its very nature. The things listed are not causes. They're symptoms of a society that has stopped admitting that there is such a thing as objective morality.

Looks like we agree:
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=328947&postcount=39

[Abbey Marie]

Only when the parents are aware of it and insist they cannot do anything about it.

I am not insisting; I am facing reality. I might suggest you try it.

Back from the deflection now: Are you yet ready to admit that our children can be indoctrinated without our consent?

[Des]

I am not insisting; I am facing reality. I might suggest you try it.

Back from the deflection now: Are you yet ready to admit that our children can be indoctrinated without our consent?

If I don't agree with it and try to do something about it, including educating my children about it, I am not consenting to it. Consenting to it is what you would call "facing reality".

[Des]

well, I suppose I have to admit that it is subjective....perhaps not everyone would agree that accusing someone of enslaving minds is hateful......but quite frankly, I wouldn't want to know anyone well, who didn't.....

Another case of projected identity to take frustrations out. Read what I wrote.