Expelled - No Intelligence Allowed [Archive] - Debate Policy

darin

11-04-2008, 09:39 AM

Over the weekend I rented Ben Stein's very-well-done movie highlighting the hypocricy, hatred, and insanity surrounding scientific learning.

What struck me most, while watching this movie, is the overwhelming sense of futility in bringing truth and open-mindedness to the ever-secular "leaders" of today. I heard a scientist during the movie. He said something like if science points us to Intelligent Design, and that's the conclusion, so what? Why would that matter to (human kind)? That's the absolute crux of the situation. People do not want to know. There's a certain safety and dare I say liberty in ignorance of man's special qualities. There's likely some comfort to the minds of folk to think there's no creator - no God - no special purpose for life being on this tiny planet in this place in the universe. What comfort would that be? The comfort in thinking nothing they do in life - no decision they make, no conditions of their hearts and minds will have consequence hereafter.

One particularly excellent interchange between Stein and Richard Dawkins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins):

Stein: What do think is the possibility that there then, intelligent design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics... or in evolution?
Richard Dawkins: Well... it could come about in the following way: it could be that uh, at some earlier time somewhere in the universe a civilization e-evolved... by probably by some kind of Darwinian means to a very very high level of technology and designed a form of life that they seeded onto... perhaps this... this planet. Um, now that is a possibility. And uh, an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it's possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the um, at the detail... details of our chemistry molecular biology you might find a signature of some sort of designer.
Stein:[voice over] Wait a second. Richard Dawkins thought intelligent design might be a legitimate pursuit?
Richard Dawkins: Um, and that designer could well be a higher intelligence from elsewhere in the universe. But that higher intelligence would itself would have to come about by some explicable or ultimately explicable process. It couldn't have just jumped into existence spontaneously. That's the point.
Stein: [voice over] So professor Dawkins was not against intelligent design, just certain types of designers. Such as God.

I also found the movie interesting in how it showed some of the social outcomes possible of complete Darwinism. In the minds of the motivated, such as Adolf Hitler, Darwinism directly or indirectly lead to the murder of millions during the rise and sustainment of Nazism. Even today, organizations such as Planned Parenthood were created by Darwinists who supported ideas such as Eugenics. Absolutely eye-opening. I'd heard it before - but to see the parallels of Nazism and Abortion-on-demand advocates such as PP were pretty surprising.

But whatever the conclusions about ID vs Darwinism - the main point of the movie is NOT to prove/disprove either, but to generate discussion. To call for at least an honest and open discussion. The reason no-such discussion happens is likely because of the fear of the answer on behalf of weak-minded or godless?

I'd show this movie to most Junior Highers and older. My elementary-school-aged kids couldn't keep interested.

Warning - Some of these brits have Literally BROWN teeth. it's nasty.

crin63

11-04-2008, 10:17 AM

I was one of the million people that saw it at the theater. I thought it was very well done.

For anyone who liked it I suggest 3 other videos.

Indoctrinate U (the clean version)

Privileged Planet. This does a great job of pointing out how the positioning of our planet cant just be random.

Answers in Genesis Curriculum http://www.answersingenesis.org/PublicStore/product/Answers-Academy-Curriculum,4864,263.aspx
This is a little expensive but worth every penny.

Missileman

11-04-2008, 06:42 PM

What a load of hooey! You have absolutely no desire of an honest and open discussion. You have no desire to learn the truth, you've already made up your mind what the truth is. You arbitrarily dismiss a MOUNTAIN of scientific evidence in favor of ancient Jewish mythology because it soothes YOUR fears.

Be careful how you spray around "weak-minded" also. One doesn't have to be weak-minded to disbelieve in YOUR religion just as you don't have to be weak-minded to disbelieve in other religions.

darin

11-04-2008, 08:09 PM

What a load of hooey! You have absolutely no desire of an honest and open discussion. You have no desire to learn the truth, you've already made up your mind what the truth is. You arbitrarily dismiss a MOUNTAIN of scientific evidence in favor of ancient Jewish mythology because it soothes YOUR fears.

Be careful how you spray around "weak-minded" also. One doesn't have to be weak-minded to disbelieve in YOUR religion just as you don't have to be weak-minded to disbelieve in other religions.

When somebody argues valid science behind ID, you simply close your eyes, plug your ears and go "nanananananananana" as loud as you can.

Missileman

11-04-2008, 08:27 PM

When somebody argues valid science behind ID, you simply close your eyes, plug your ears and go "nanananananananana" as loud as you can.

As yet, I have never seen a single shred of valid science in support of ID. Your faith in it doesn't make it valid.

As has been pointed out on several occasions if there were actually anything scientific to ID, it would be adopted by scientists...that's how scientists operate.

darin

11-04-2008, 08:28 PM

As yet, I have never seen a single shred of valid science in support of ID. Your faith in it doesn't make it valid.

As has been pointed out on several occasions if there were actually anything scientific to ID, it would be adopted by scientists...that's how scientists operate.

Toeing the party line I see?

have you seen Expelled?

Gaffer

11-04-2008, 08:30 PM

It ranks right up there with an inconvenient truth as far as I'm concerned. Or sicko. I wouldn't watch it for free, let alone pay to see it.

Missileman

11-04-2008, 08:36 PM

Toeing the party line I see?

have you seen Expelled?

No, I haven't seen it. I'm not a big fan of pseudo-scientific, docu-comedies.

Gaffer

11-04-2008, 08:42 PM

Toeing the party line I see?

have you seen Expelled?

he's a conservative like me. We just don't believe in pseudo-science.

darin

11-04-2008, 09:16 PM

...but the movie doesn't set out to prove anything except the closed minded LOUD voice of academia to very viable SCIENTIFIC discussion. Folks refuse to believe ID is a possibility - except if the ID comes from Aliens. Silly, eh?

Gaffer

11-04-2008, 09:40 PM

...but the movie doesn't set out to prove anything except the closed minded LOUD voice of academia to very viable SCIENTIFIC discussion. Folks refuse to believe ID is a possibility - except if the ID comes from Aliens. Silly, eh?

Real science is not out to prove or disprove the existence of a god or creator. It deals only in facts. Injecting ID into an equation just screws up the results as ID is not a fact but an opinion.

Missileman

11-04-2008, 09:43 PM

...but the movie doesn't set out to prove anything except the closed minded LOUD voice of academia to very viable SCIENTIFIC discussion. Folks refuse to believe ID is a possibility - except if the ID comes from Aliens. Silly, eh?

No, silly is expecting scientists to consider pseudo-science on the basis that YOU believe in it.

darin

11-04-2008, 10:09 PM

you're very close minded. So what if studying biology leads to ID? Why would that bother you? You're more interested in perserving your preconceptions than finding truth. It's as if, as the movie says, you're letting your world view influence the interpretation of science. :)

Gaffer

11-04-2008, 10:28 PM

you're very close minded. So what if studying biology leads to ID? Why would that bother you? You're more interested in perserving your preconceptions than finding truth. It's as if, as the movie says, you're letting your world view influence the interpretation of science. :)

You are the one with the closed mind. You insist something exists that you can prove. It's very existence is based on your beliefs. Science isn't about interpretation. It's about fact. One plus one equals two. It won't change no matter how much you believe or pray or hope or wish.

Missileman

11-04-2008, 10:41 PM

you're very close minded.

No more so than you are...

So what if studying biology leads to ID? Why would that bother you? You're more interested in perserving your preconceptions than finding truth. It's as if, as the movie says, you're letting your world view influence the interpretation of science. :)

If ID is shown to be more likely than evolution, I will happily accept it as just that. It won't "bother" me at all. My views aren't locked into the Christian mold as yours are...it's your preconception that HAS to include a god, not mine.

I wouldn't hold my breath that ID is going to gain any real scientific clout though...it's a pile of bunk so far. It was pulled from the ass of a thumper looking for a way to sneak the bible into the public school system.

darin

11-05-2008, 12:26 AM

You're fooling yourself. People don't 'study' ID - they study life - they study science, which points to ID as a very viable (and likely) conclusion.

You keep throwing out the red herrings. Enjoy that.

NightTrain

11-05-2008, 10:54 AM

I rented this dvd a couple weeks ago or so, it was quite interesting.

You would think that all ideas and theories would be openly discussed & debated in academic circles, but the blacklisted professors were an eye-opener.

Whether or not you believe in Darwinism or Creationism, the documentary was interesting to see how close minded the elite crowd in academia treats someone with an opposing view - when they, above all others, should welcome diverse theories and subjects to advance learning or entertain the possibilities of other lines of thought being viable.

Their position is the world is flat, and anyone else that suggests otherwise is a nutjob that needs to be removed from the circle and silenced with zero discussion.

I've always liked Stein. He's smart as hell, and his dry delivery always appealed to me. Big flashback to Bueller at the end: "Anyone.... anyone...."

Missileman

11-05-2008, 06:11 PM

You're fooling yourself. People don't 'study' ID - they study life - they study science, which points to ID as a very viable (and likely) conclusion.

You keep throwing out the red herrings. Enjoy that.

More baloney! You only believe in one possible version of ID...the one portrayed in ancient Jewish mythology. You'd deny any "alien" ID theories with the same blind fervor that you show towards evolution.

YamiB.

11-05-2008, 06:30 PM

I've seen various things since the film came out about how they have been dishonest in various ways. They distorted the truth about what happened to some of the individuals, they lied to some of the pro-evolution people about what this was an interview for, and they used quotes misleadingly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expelled#Charles_Darwin_quotation_issue

http://www.expelledexposed.com/index.php/the-truth

I haven't looked through this site thoroughly so I can't say if it covers everything or what it goes into exactly but form a quick couple of looks it seems to bring up some of the valid criticisms of this movie.

The assertion that Darwinian evolution is to blame for the Holocaust is completely absurd. ID as with it's close relative Creationism seems to want to circumvent the scientific process and be put as equal to evolution without any of the same type of evidence that has been gathered for evolution.

darin

11-06-2008, 08:30 AM

The assertion that Darwinian evolution is to blame for the Holocaust is completely absurd.

Where was that claim made? That's crazy!

-Cp

11-06-2008, 01:05 PM

Real science is not out to prove or disprove the existence of a god or creator. It deals only in facts. Injecting ID into an equation just screws up the results as ID is not a fact but an opinion.

Hey dude, you want FACTS? Here - here are a TON OF FACTS:

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-Cp

11-06-2008, 01:06 PM

-Cp

11-06-2008, 01:08 PM

If Missleman and Gaffer do NOT watch those videos I posted - they should shut their collective pie-holes as they are obviously PROVING that they have NO use for SCIENCE...

YamiB.

11-06-2008, 01:44 PM

About how long are the video clips when put all together? I just want to know how much time I need to get through them.

dan

11-06-2008, 02:35 PM

About how long are the video clips when put all together? I just want to know how much time I need to get through them.

1 hour 28 seconds. :)

YamiB.

11-06-2008, 03:48 PM

1 hour 28 seconds. :)

Ugh, I'm guessing that means 2 to 2 1/2 hours with pausing to take note of claims and look up their refutations. Guess I'll start in on it in a bit after I finish reading about Caesar and Octavian.

YamiB.

11-06-2008, 06:22 PM

Just finished watching it, I thought this would actually be something dealing with ID as an opposing theory to evolution using science, I guest that would be too much to ask.

I think this site does a rather good job of deconstructing some problems with the film.
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-01-09.html

-Cp

11-06-2008, 06:25 PM

Just finished watching it, I thought this would actually be something dealing with ID as an opposing theory to evolution using science, I guest that would be too much to ask.

I think this site does a rather good job of deconstructing some problems with the film.
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-01-09.html

I don't think that site does a good job at all of "deconstructing" it - they have nothing to back up their claims there..

YamiB.

11-06-2008, 06:33 PM

I don't think that site does a good job at all of "deconstructing" it - they have nothing to back up their claims there..

Very little is stated that would require backing. Most of their rebuttal disputes the conclusions they arrive to as being based on faulty reasoning and logic not by claiming the facts they used were wrong.

I wonder what really you thought this video would add to the discussion since it has absolutely nothing to do with intelligent design as an alternative to evolution?

-Cp

11-06-2008, 06:41 PM

Very little is stated that would require backing. Most of their rebuttal disputes the conclusions they arrive to as being based on faulty reasoning and logic not by claiming the facts they used were wrong.

I wonder what really you thought this video would add to the discussion since it has absolutely nothing to do with intelligent design as an alternative to evolution?

Because the video clearly brings SCIENTIFIC evidence that there IS ID...

YamiB.

11-06-2008, 06:42 PM

Because the video clearly brings SCIENTIFIC evidence that there IS ID...

Not really it bring evidence that our planet is very rare. It then takes a jump to say that because our planet is rare it must have been intelligently designed. This also does nothing to carry over to the use of intelligent design as an alternative to evolution.

Missileman

11-06-2008, 07:03 PM

If Missleman and Gaffer do NOT watch those videos I posted - they should shut their collective pie-holes as they are obviously PROVING that they have NO use for SCIENCE...

I watched the videos...in 60+ minutes they didn't produce a single shred of evidence of the existence of a creator or intelligent designer...not one shred. There's also some problems with their list of conditions necessary to sustain life...most notably, they're arguing that only a planet nearly identical to earth could produce intelligent life. That's pure conjecture with no basis in fact.

BTW, the whole thing about the moon being exactly the right size to create a total eclipse was particularly amusing. The moon is actually moving away from the earth and the days of perfect solar eclipses are numbered...I wonder how they'll explain how that is part of some grand design.

Missileman

11-06-2008, 07:05 PM

Because the video clearly brings SCIENTIFIC evidence that there IS ID...

It does no such thing.