Expectation of privacy on the internet

[Yurt]

out of curiosity, who has a reasonable expectation that what you do or say on the internet is private?

what do you expect to be private? what do you not expect to be private?

[jimnyc]

out of curiosity, who has a reasonable expectation that what you do or say on the internet is private?

what do you expect to be private? what do you not expect to be private?

Some have expectations of the ultimate privacy on the internet, but they would be quite naive. My feelings are this - everything is in the open unless it's in an area clearly marked "private" and inaccessible by the thousands of search engine bots.

Once you put ANYTHING out on the internet, it WILL be picked up by the bots and recorded. And I can't begin to tell you how many people have attempted to have Google remove things from their search results and have found it to be a lost cause. And even if they did, it will still remain on the origin site. And even if you were lucky enough to have it removed from the origin site, and Google, you better have done it within a few days of putting it out there - because although Google might be the biggest player, there are literally thousands of similar services that crawl the 'net and record everything.

But, in a direct answer to your question once again, I would think the only thing one should expect to remain fully private is PM's, which are designed to be private and inaccessible by the bots. Or, anything specified as privileged and private on any website you go to.

My rule of thumb is this: don't ever, EVER, post or communicate anything on the 'net that you wouldn't say in "real life", or anything you would even remotely fear of being announced to the public.

[Yurt]

great reply. i don't want to cast you as anything you are not, however, is it fair to say that you have more expertise than the average citizen regarding internet technology issues?


QUOTE=jimnyc;310375]Some have expectations of the ultimate privacy on the internet, but they would be quite naive. My feelings are this - everything is in the open unless it's in an area clearly marked "private" and inaccessible by the thousands of search engine bots.

is it your opinion that people's expectations are "reasonable?" by that i mean, should (not would) the average person using the internet expect ultimate privacy. see below first.


Once you put ANYTHING out on the internet, it WILL be picked up by the bots and recorded. And I can't begin to tell you how many people have attempted to have Google remove things from their search results and have found it to be a lost cause. And even if they did, it will still remain on the origin site. And even if you were lucky enough to have it removed from the origin site, and Google, you better have done it within a few days of putting it out there - because although Google might be the biggest player, there are literally thousands of similar services that crawl the 'net and record everything.

is this why the average person should not expect more privacy? it seems to me that the average person might not know this.


But, in a direct answer to your question once again, I would think the only thing one should expect to remain fully private is PM's, which are designed to be private and inaccessible by the bots. Or, anything specified as privileged and private on any website you go to.

that makes sense. is there no technology known, that say a hacker could use, that renders PM's not entirely safe. in other words, like telephone calls, you expect them to be private, but they are not always. they do, however, enjoy certain protections in a court of law. to your knowledge, to PM's also enjoy such protection?

i believe that no court has ever ruled on PM's.


My rule of thumb is this: don't ever, EVER, post or communicate anything on the 'net that you wouldn't say in "real life", or anything you would even remotely fear of being announced to the public.

that is great advice, just as someone once said...the attorney who represents himself has a fool for a client.

[manu1959]

i have seen more than one person interview for a job with my company regret have a my space or face book page....

[hjmick]

I operate under the assumption that, if anyone really wanted to, they could find out damn near anything. Especially if they have a full name. To my knowledge, I have successfully refrained from giving out my full name.

[manu1959]

I operate under the assumption that, if anyone really wanted to, they could find out damn near anything. Especially if they have a full name. To my knowledge, I have successfully refrained from giving out my full name.

i go by this simple credo.....you can't black mail someone that doesn't give a shit what people think.....

[hjmick]

i go by this simple credo.....you can't black mail someone that doesn't give a shit what people think.....

That works too.

[Yurt]

i have seen more than one person interview for a job with my company regret have a my space or face book page....

yes, yes...now this is an interesting issue

people actually create a public profile on the internet and expect that it should be private.

let's analogize this to...what? that is the question. i think it is analogous to creating a public profile on your local newspaper. one might think that only the locals will read it, however, that is not true, ANYONE can read it. or one might say this is analogous to creating a profile on your local campus bulletin board....well i only meant it for the folks at my school to see.

is there anyone who believes that profiles such as 'my space' or 'face book' are private, in that, only those you want to see the information are entitled to that information? does anyone believe an employer should not be allowed to use that information for ANY purpose?

[jimnyc]

great reply. i don't want to cast you as anything you are not, however, is it fair to say that you have more expertise than the average citizen regarding internet technology issues?

For technology, I believe so. I've been a geek since before I even got out of HS about electronics and my first Atari computer. Attended a tech school in NJ for 3 1/2 years, Kean College in NJ for a year and St. Johns U in NY for a year. That and over 15 years of working in the technology field in a support aspect - and of course internet technology is an obsession of mine. :) As for "Law" issues, I always wanted to be a lawyer but couldn't afford law school. I also have a sick obsession with this. I frequent about 8 legal sites on a daily basis and read, read and read some more when Lawyers give out advice to those in need. I even go to local night court here sometimes just to sit in and watch the proceedings.


is it your opinion that people's expectations are "reasonable?" by that i mean, should (not would) the average person using the internet expect ultimate privacy. see below first.

I can see how they can expect it, and want it. But the average person isn't very well versed in the law, nor how the internet operates. They're expectations might sound reasonable, but they are quite naive.


is this why the average person should not expect more privacy? it seems to me that the average person might not know this.


Lack of knowledge and myths lead people to have higher expectations. Again, naivety can lead to regrets.


that makes sense. is there no technology known, that say a hacker could use, that renders PM's not entirely safe. in other words, like telephone calls, you expect them to be private, but they are not always. they do, however, enjoy certain protections in a court of law. to your knowledge, to PM's also enjoy such protection?

I doubt a hacker could render them readable to the average Joe, but of course a good hacker could access them for himself. A good rule of thumb is this: if it's stored on the internet, a savvy hacker can get it.


i believe that no court has ever ruled on PM's.

Believe it or not, people have actually brought such issues before local courts before and have lost. It's merely a site owners policy and not anything the law has set in stone. I've actually even seen some sites outright state that although they are labeled PRIVATE messages, staff have access to them and can and will read them when necessary. My belief is that since you are telling your members they are PRIVATE, they should remain just that.


that is great advice, just as someone once said...the attorney who represents himself has a fool for a client.

Absolutely correct! Although I represented myself here in NY once against a landlord who refused to return my deposit when I vacated after my lease was up. I beat him on a technicality that I cited to the judge. He kept my deposit in his own bank account and co-mingling deposits with your own funds is a no-no - and prior cited cases show that regardless of ANY complaint a landlord may have, they forfeit their case and must return the deposit in full if they have done so. I wouldn't have pushed the issue, but he tried to keep my deposit based on slight and meaningless "damages" that existed before I even rented from him.

[Yurt]

UOTE=jimnyc;310410]For technology, I believe so. I've been a geek since before I even got out of HS about electronics and my first Atari computer. Attended a tech school in NJ for 3 1/2 years, Kean College in NJ for a year and St. Johns U in NY for a year. That and over 15 years of working in the technology field in a support aspect - and of course internet technology is an obsession of mine. :) As for "Law" issues, I always wanted to be a lawyer but couldn't afford law school. I also have a sick obsession with this. I frequent about 8 legal sites on a daily basis and read, read and read some more when Lawyers give out advice to those in need. I even go to local night court here sometimes just to sit in and watch the proceedings.

there is no need to affirm that you are a geek :coffee:

i would say that you know a good deal about internet tech. more than i do, and probably more than most folks on this board. i applaud your interest in the law.


I can see how they can expect it, and want it. But the average person isn't very well versed in the law, nor how the internet operates. They're expectations might sound reasonable, but they are quite naive.

fair enough, but the average person is not well versed in the law or how the internet operates. would agree or disagree?



Lack of knowledge and myths lead people to have higher expectations. Again, naivety can lead to regrets.

ok, but, the internet is new technology, how much do any of us really know aobut it? and should the average person know about the privacy issues? if so, how do we educate them? i believe people are wholly ignorant on the matter. i minored in computer information systems and yet do not have, probably a 10th of your understanding of the internet.




I doubt a hacker could render them readable to the average Joe, but of course a good hacker could access them for himself. A good rule of thumb is this: if it's stored on the internet, a savvy hacker can get it.



Believe it or not, people have actually brought such issues before local courts before and have lost. It's merely a site owners policy and not anything the law has set in stone. I've actually even seen some sites outright state that although they are labeled PRIVATE messages, staff have access to them and can and will read them when necessary. My belief is that since you are telling your members they are PRIVATE, they should remain just that.

the difference, IMO, between the "law" and "integrity" is while something may be legal, it does not mean it is right. i personally believe we are litigious society, yay great for my pocket book, however, true litigation exists, unfortunately, to much phony litigation exists. for a further discussion, read up on the difference between japanese society and ours. it will blow your mind if you have not already read such.



Absolutely correct! Although I represented myself here in NY once against a landlord who refused to return my deposit when I vacated after my lease was up. I beat him on a technicality that I cited to the judge. He kept my deposit in his own bank account and co-mingling deposits with your own funds is a no-no - and prior cited cases show that regardless of ANY complaint a landlord may have, they forfeit their case and must return the deposit in full if they have done so. I wouldn't have pushed the issue, but he tried to keep my deposit based on slight and meaningless "damages" that existed before I even rented from him.

as has my father who is not an attorney, i did not mean to demean pro per litigants at all....only that an attorney who represents himself or herself.....

[Mr. P]

out of curiosity, who has a reasonable expectation that what you do or say on the internet is private?

what do you expect to be private? what do you not expect to be private?

I expect all my banking and or financial stuff to be private. Other than that expecting privacy on the internet is delusional, even with those privacy policies that say "WE NEVER etc" LOL, don't bet on it.

[Yurt]

I expect all my banking and or financial stuff to be private. Other than that expecting privacy on the internet is delusional, even with those privacy policies that say "WE NEVER etc" LOL, don't bet on it.

why do you expect it to be private? and what gives you confidence that said information will be private?

[Mr. P]

why do you expect it to be private? and what gives you confidence that said information will be private?

Well truth is even banking is not 100% private but info is not shared with the general public.

I expect the same privacy on the net as I would if I walk into a bank. Same service different method..and there is that net security stuff.

I guess my confidence is based on the fact that if privacy is ever compromised the electronic banking industry will suffer severely, maybe fail, so they have a vested interest in security. Just like the brick an mortar banks.

[Yurt]

I expect the same privacy on the net as I would if I walk into a bank. Same service different method..and there is that net security stuff.

do you walk into the internet? do you walk onto the info highway the same way as you walk out your door and go to the bank?




I guess my confidence is based on the fact that if privacy is ever compromised the electronic banking industry will suffer severely, maybe fail, so they have a vested interest in security. Just like the brick an mortar banks.

i agree, however, this is not a brick and mortar bank. so do you expect, that this virtual brick and mortar bank will provide you with the same level of privacy as the literal brick and mortar bank?

[Mr. P]

do you walk into the internet? do you walk onto the info highway the same way as you walk out your door and go to the bank?

No



i agree, however, this is not a brick and mortar bank. so do you expect, that this virtual brick and mortar bank will provide you with the same level of privacy as the literal brick and mortar bank?

I absolutely expect the same from them...yes. The bank I deal with is not a virtual bank they are just not physically located here so I bank with them online.

[Noir]

I'm not stupid enough to that anything on a social networking site is private, but that hasn't stopped me using them, and I think they are going to be the downfall of allot of people, the number of folks I know who a be doctors, or work in law, the police or some one like myself with politics are gonna be up shit creek.

[jimnyc]

there is no need to affirm that you are a geek :coffee:

i would say that you know a good deal about internet tech. more than i do, and probably more than most folks on this board. i applaud your interest in the law.

Thank you, Sir. :)


fair enough, but the average person is not well versed in the law or how the internet operates. would agree or disagree?


Agreed wholeheartedly. Unfortunately for them, the law doesn't take naivety into account.


ok, but, the internet is new technology, how much do any of us really know aobut it? and should the average person know about the privacy issues? if so, how do we educate them? i believe people are wholly ignorant on the matter. i minored in computer information systems and yet do not have, probably a 10th of your understanding of the internet.


We can't educate them, people must educate themselves. Generally speaking, a slip up with ramifications will lead one in the direction of educating themselves.


the difference, IMO, between the "law" and "integrity" is while something may be legal, it does not mean it is right. i personally believe we are litigious society, yay great for my pocket book, however, true litigation exists, unfortunately, to much phony litigation exists. for a further discussion, read up on the difference between japanese society and ours. it will blow your mind if you have not already read such.

Legal = right does NOT make it the right thing to do, we agree on that. IMO, integrity, loyalty & having a proper moral compass should trump the laws, at least coming from someone who owns websites.


as has my father who is not an attorney, i did not mean to demean pro per litigants at all....only that an attorney who represents himself or herself.....

I didn't feel demeaned. I was just citing an example where a fool represented himself without an attorney and got lucky, but I did hours upon hours of research before walking into the courtroom. Most walk in just thinking they are correct and forget the law dictates the outcome, not ones feelings.

[jimnyc]

I expect all my banking and or financial stuff to be private. Other than that expecting privacy on the internet is delusional, even with those privacy policies that say "WE NEVER etc" LOL, don't bet on it.


why do you expect it to be private? and what gives you confidence that said information will be private?


Well truth is even banking is not 100% private but info is not shared with the general public.

I expect the same privacy on the net as I would if I walk into a bank. Same service different method..and there is that net security stuff.

I guess my confidence is based on the fact that if privacy is ever compromised the electronic banking industry will suffer severely, maybe fail, so they have a vested interest in security. Just like the brick an mortar banks.


do you walk into the internet? do you walk onto the info highway the same way as you walk out your door and go to the bank?

i agree, however, this is not a brick and mortar bank. so do you expect, that this virtual brick and mortar bank will provide you with the same level of privacy as the literal brick and mortar bank?


I absolutely expect the same from them...yes. The bank I deal with is not a virtual bank they are just not physically located here so I bank with them online.

I believe the banking industry is a different matter, and there's a reason that they go out of their way to use the most advanced technology available to secure their websites and clients information. Should they be hacked, and information is stolen, they could very well be held accountable for any losses. If someone hacks this site and steals PM's, I wouldn't be held responsible (of course there are always gray areas).

[Trinity]

i have seen more than one person interview for a job with my company regret have a my space or face book page....

That is why you can not find me on myspace under my real name, nor by my email address. I have a separate email I use just for myspace, that no one gets. My page is also private and only viewable by friends, and if you send me a friend request and I don't know you personally sorry I will deny it.

[Trinity]

A friend of mine told me that when he was in junior high school (mid-to-late nineties), they got a computer in the classroom free for the students to use during breaks. The first thing many of them would do to was to change the dull Windows 95 desktop. The school's IT Manager for some reason thought of this as vandalism, so he frequently fixed it in the only way he knew how -- by reinstalling Windows.

I was almost on the floor laughing when my friend told me about how the IT Manager had come into their classroom one day and told the students, "Will you STOP changing the desktop background? I've had to reinstall Windows every day for the last two weeks now!" :laugh2:

[CockySOB]

out of curiosity, who has a reasonable expectation that what you do or say on the internet is private?

what do you expect to be private? what do you not expect to be private?

In simplest terms, no one has any reasonable expectation to privacy on the internet. I know that I certainly don't expect anything to be private, despite my own best efforts to ensure that as little information about me as possible is put out over the internet. From a technological perspective, there is no such thing as "security" and "private" on the internet due to the underlying technological weaknesses inherent to the system both as it was originally designed AND as that system has evolved today.

If you want something kept private, don't put it on the internet, period. that's the best chance you have of keeping it private. But even that is not guaranteed these days. With a combination of photo-blogging, mo-blogging, etc. more information is being fed into the system daily than most people can even begin to conceptualize. And while a particular person may not put any personal information up, there is a very real chance (and growing daily) that someone else is posting information about them on the internet without their knowledge or consent, but within legal means.

Despite the standard usage agreements which say "do not share private messages" and the like, sites like this have little to no means of legally enforcing such rules other than to try to ban violators from returning to the site. If you want to increase the legal strength of such an agreement as a site owner, you should go back to the early days of AOL and the like and read in-depth their terms of service and user contracts. The wording is specific and lays out the framework for civil and criminal legal jurisdiction for people using the site/service.

[Psychoblues]

How many here think their PM's here are private? Raise your hands!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyone with the software or inclination can for damned sure read even your PM's on this site and any other. I have no idea why you would think differently or why the administrator would imply otherwise.

:salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

[jimnyc]

How many here think their PM's here are private? Raise your hands!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyone with the software or inclination can for damned sure read even your PM's on this site and any other. I have no idea why you would think differently or why the administrator would imply otherwise.

:salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

Your PM's here ARE private - except to the party you send them to, or if that party forwards it to a staff member because it's abusive.

I've NEVER stated there isn't software available to make it available, or that someone with SQL experience can do it manually. I've offered SEVERAL times to have ANY member full and complete access to verify whether we have anything installed to make PM's readable and nobody has taken me up on the offer. Would you like to be the one to verify?

[gabosaurus]

There is no privacy on the internet. That is why I was always told "don't say anything on the internet that you wouldn't say to someone in person." And don't post anything on the internet that you don't want anyone to see.
No matter how hard you try to make things like myspace and facebook private, you can't. Both sites are easily searched. And there are programs that can break codes.

One of my favorite stories of this nature is the high school senior who devoted several years to achieving her goal of attending a small private college. She received a full scholarship. Only to see is taken away after someone found pictures of her online holding a beer and looking fairly intoxicated. The college said it violated their "code of honor."

[emmett]

I believe the banking industry is a different matter, and there's a reason that they go out of their way to use the most advanced technology available to secure their websites and clients information. Should they be hacked, and information is stolen, they could very well be held accountable for any losses. If someone hacks this site and steals PM's, I wouldn't be held responsible (of course there are always gray areas).


Ah......Jim! Funny we would be talking about this subject! Fact is...yes so there are probably fucks out there who could whack our site. However! Once they had done it, we call in the "hack"! My kid! He fixes the snafu, identifies the prepretraitor and we kick his/her ass. Problem fixed!

In addition the kid loads up one of his virus extrodinaires, pumps it into their shit....and they never use the thing again! I've had the misfortune of watching him and his little hacker friends do the nasty before and it ain't pretty brother!

Luckily, the kid uses his skills responsibly! Our company uses some of the technology he acquires in our daily work. Not to hack of course but to do work for our clients. He doesn't even let his own father know how some of the shit works......not that I wouold understand it. To me it just looks like a bunch of jibberish flying across the screen. They work so fast I can't keep up with it.

Last year I witnessed an experiment they did at his house. Using a "common" as they called it (a seperate computer set up as if owned and operated by a seperate entity) they used it to load a virus into one of their own computers, afterwards they intercepted it with their security technique and reloaded a virus back into the thing that left it playing the Mayberry RFD whistling song. That's all it would do. Then they had the Geek Squad come in and try to fix it. They couldn't do it. The hard drive was worthless! It never worked again!

Three years ago, a competitor who was pissed off at us hired a hacker to try and infiltrate our system here at the office. They are listening to Mayberry to this day! We have since made up with them and they still talk about it! They said as soon as they thought they had got us the music started and never stopped. They couldn't even play Solitaire on the damn thing!

[Yurt]

There is no privacy on the internet. That is why I was always told "don't say anything on the internet that you wouldn't say to someone in person." And don't post anything on the internet that you don't want anyone to see.
No matter how hard you try to make things like myspace and facebook private, you can't. Both sites are easily searched. And there are programs that can break codes.

One of my favorite stories of this nature is the high school senior who devoted several years to achieving her goal of attending a small private college. She received a full scholarship. Only to see is taken away after someone found pictures of her online holding a beer and looking fairly intoxicated. The college said it violated their "code of honor."

wow, that's harsh

[Psychoblues]

Harsh?



wow, that's harsh

Are you giving legal advise as to the dimishment of the warning from gabby, yuk?

Harsh? How so?

:salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

[Yurt]

Harsh?




Are you giving legal advise as to the dimishment of the warning from gabby, yuk?

Harsh? How so?

:salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

:lol:

thersh no blood in mysh alcohols offisher