Sometimes the Pope scares me.

[darin]

Just browing drudge; seeing a pic of the Pope, hands out and up to the masses...Nobody should be that 'powerful' in a Religion. To me, Christianity is about anything BUT popular power and influence on the masses centered around one guy.

It's not just the Pope...while at a local church last week the Minister mentioned how the church was "honoring God" by setting aside a beautiful building and room for church services. Nobody eats or drinks there - it's set aside as a special place - no concerts or anything - it's showing GOD they've set a place apart as special and reserved for worship. If all the ties and suits weren't scary enough for me, hearing that sent up internal red flags. I don't doubt the sincerity of the Pastor, nor his love for God....but really? As if that honors God? God isn't so much honored by our 'sacrifice' but our Obediance, IMO.

Anywho - Leaders of the masses (no catholic pun intended) frighten me a little bit, from a Spiritual perspective.

I've made connection to the 'worshippers' of various candidates for Political office too - that stands as well. People need someBODY to follow...to worship. Some people worship World of Warcraft. Some worship Obama. Some worship Pallin's might fine caboose. They 'say' they are worshipping something bigger (God, ideals, Change, what-not)...but I wonder if the message coming from an un-attractive, or un-annointed person might fall upon their deaf ears?

I don't mean any disrespect to Catholics by this thread - just seeing that 'without context' image got me thinking.

Thoughts?

[Abbey Marie]

2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

3 Do not have any other gods before me.

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me...

Exodus 20:2–5

[Yurt]

It's not just the Pope...while at a local church last week the Minister mentioned how the church was "honoring God" by setting aside a beautiful building and room for church services. Nobody eats or drinks there - it's set aside as a special place - no concerts or anything - it's showing GOD they've set a place apart as special and reserved for worship. If all the ties and suits weren't scary enough for me, hearing that sent up internal red flags. I don't doubt the sincerity of the Pastor, nor his love for God....but really? As if that honors God? God isn't so much honored by our 'sacrifice' but our Obediance, IMO.


Thoughts?

are the people allowed to pray there...is that what you mean by "set aside for worship?" if so, isn't that a good thing? a nice chapel just for meditation, reflection, prayer....at all times?

[Abbey Marie]

are the people allowed to pray there...is that what you mean by "set aside for worship?" if so, isn't that a good thing? a nice chapel just for meditation, reflection, prayer....at all times?

I took Darin's post to mean that the building was a real showplace. I don't want to speak for him, but my guess is that he worries that people will sort of worship the building, more than or even instead of, God.

[Yurt]

I took Darin's post to mean that the building was a real showplace. I don't want to speak for him, but my guess is that he worries that people will sort of worship the building, more than or even instead of, God.

oh, ok. because my church, number 1,000,439 (J/K), sets aside chapels on campuses, and inside the church that are used solely for worship, nothing else, very peaceful.

[Abbey Marie]

oh, ok. because my church, number 1,000,439 (J/K), sets aside chapels on campuses, and inside the church that are used solely for worship, nothing else, very peaceful.

That sounds very nice.

[darin]

It's the main sanctuary of the building. It's where he was preaching. Where the pews are.

I hate it. I hate thinking God gives two rat's asses about us spending millions on pretty facilities supposedly to "Honor Him."

It's along the lines of, and forgive my quoting Indiana Jones, "...that's not the cup of a carpenter."

Take that in context with the majority of the dress there...made me very uncomfortable. As if people were "Dressing up for GOD!" - as if GOD cares. I'm sure he Can't care. Jesus walked around in a SHEET for Pete's sake.

Ya know?

[Abbey Marie]

It's the main sanctuary of the building. It's where he was preaching. Where the pews are.

I hate it. I hate thinking God gives two rat's asses about us spending millions on pretty facilities supposedly to "Honor Him."

It's along the lines of, and forgive my quoting Indiana Jones, "...that's not the cup of a carpenter."

Take that in context with the majority of the dress there...made me very uncomfortable. As if people were "Dressing up for GOD!" - as if GOD cares. I'm sure he Can't care. Jesus walked around in a SHEET for Pete's sake.

Ya know?

I can't go to a church where people get dressed up. It seems like it's all for show.

Along the same lines, is it true, as I have heard, that in Synagogues the more you donate, the closer to the front is your "reserved" seat? Is that possible!?

[darin]

Well...the first couple rows were empty at the church in question...

Another odd thing - they passed a plate, for offering. How quaint. How completely not-appropriate, IMO today. :)

[crin63]

Theres a simple reason to dress in your best.
decorum

2: propriety and good taste in conduct or appearance
3: orderliness
4 plural : the conventions of polite behavior

I wear a suit and tie to our 3 worship services. I wear jeans and a collared shirt for evangelism. At my church 90% of the men wear ties and 90% of the women wear skirts or dresses.

Whats wrong with dressing in your best clothes for church anyway, whats wrong with demonstrating that you think its important enough to put on your best what ever that may be. If all you have is 2 pair of overalls why not wear the better of the 2.

With regards to a building its my opinion that it should be clean, neat and comfortable. When someone walks in they should not be blown away by how shabby it is or how gaudy it is. They should walk in and think, "this is nice". Not a status issue but someplace that people can be comfortable and welcomed.

[darin]

Whats wrong with dressing in your best clothes for church anyway, whats wrong with demonstrating that you think its important enough to put on your best what ever that may be. If all you have is 2 pair of overalls why not wear the better of the 2.

...because in my mind, that's all for Human consumption. It's to please 'others' - NOT God. It's to present an appearance; wearing one's nicest clothes to church doesn't please or displease God any more or less than wearing one's lest-good clothes anywhere. Make sense? I don't a church is important in the least - maybe that's where we disconnect? A church is not The church. A church won't teach me anything - nor will dressing up or down. I believe common-ground modesty dictates, followed by comfort. Middle-of-the-road in terms of dress is best, IMO to avoid awkward situations. It's a gray area, I suppose?





With regards to a building its my opinion that it should be clean, neat and comfortable. When someone walks in they should not be blown away by how shabby it is or how gaudy it is. They should walk in and think, "this is nice". Not a status issue but someplace that people can be comfortable and welcomed.


What about a swim-up church? Would you go for that? Where folks sit in a hot tub, or a pool and listen to the preacher? :D

Thanks for sharing -

...because it's all for Human consumption. It's to please 'others' - NOT God.

[Kathianne]

...because in my mind, that's all for Human consumption. It's to please 'others' - NOT God. It's to present an appearance; wearing one's nicest clothes to church doesn't please or displease God any more or less than wearing one's lest-good clothes anywhere. Make sense? I don't a church is important in the least - maybe that's where we disconnect? A church is not The church. A church won't teach me anything - nor will dressing up or down. I believe common-ground modesty dictates, followed by comfort. Middle-of-the-road in terms of dress is best, IMO to avoid awkward situations. It's a gray area, I suppose?






What about a swim-up church? Would you go for that? Where folks sit in a hot tub, or a pool and listen to the preacher? :D

Thanks for sharing -

...because it's all for Human consumption. It's to please 'others' - NOT God.

Darin, I'd never question your relationship with God or your way of praising or humbling yourself before Him. There were good reasons for the Reformation, much of which underlies what your feelings are.

Some of us though, well we are products of those who managed to get through those times and still remain Catholic. Not saying we're right or vice versa. Saying, the idea that a statue or crucifix, as opposed to a cross is an idol, well never was or will be. We do not praise or worship statues or crucifix, rather they are a symbol or remembrance. The Pope? He's Peter's successor, the theology of infallibility IS above my pay grade or knowledge. I do KNOW he's not infallible regarding things like women as priests, meat on Fridays, guitar masses, Latin masses, etc. However, when it's about the word of God, meaning, 3 persons in the Trinity, that is infallible. Don't ask me how it works. ;)

[Yurt]

It's the main sanctuary of the building. It's where he was preaching. Where the pews are.

I hate it. I hate thinking God gives two rat's asses about us spending millions on pretty facilities supposedly to "Honor Him."

It's along the lines of, and forgive my quoting Indiana Jones, "...that's not the cup of a carpenter."

Take that in context with the majority of the dress there...made me very uncomfortable. As if people were "Dressing up for GOD!" - as if GOD cares. I'm sure he Can't care. Jesus walked around in a SHEET for Pete's sake.

Ya know?

you mean like solomon's temple....and the special tents, places where the holy of holies is/was contained? my understanding of the israelites encampments after they left egypt consisted of a large central area dedicated solely to religious purposes and the inner most sanctum contained the holy of holies...

as to dressing up, i don't care is someone wants to and i can't stand those that judge others who do not want to. the disciples complained about mary's expensive ointment that she poured over Jesus's feet....what did Jesus say when they complained?

[darin]

you mean like solomon's temple....and the special tents, places where the holy of holies is/was contained? my understanding of the israelites encampments after they left egypt consisted of a large central area dedicated solely to religious purposes and the inner most sanctum contained the holy of holies...


Yup. All of those types are places are useless in worshiping and or communing with God.



as to dressing up, i don't care is someone wants to and i can't stand those that judge others who do not want to. the disciples complained about mary's expensive ointment that she poured over Jesus's feet....what did Jesus say when they complained?

He said "Let her Bless Me." She was giving something very special - very valuable to Him. To minister to Him. In a VERY sub-serviant way.

Dressing up is not blessing anyone. It's not Giving. Since God doesn't care what you wear, I think it's a waste of effort - again, that's just me.

[avatar4321]

Two thoughts:

First thing that came to my mind when i read the original post was this scripture:


22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams (1 Kings 15:22)

Second thing that came to my mind is that sometimes the Lord commands us to sacrifice and set places or days apart for worship and rest from worldly cares. Sometimes the Lord wants us to sacrifice.

The key is determining when He wants it and that can only be done through the Holy Spirit.

[avatar4321]

Yup. All of those types are places are useless in worshiping and or communing with God.



He said "Let her Bless Me." She was giving something very special - very valuable to Him. To minister to Him. In a VERY sub-serviant way.

Dressing up is not blessing anyone. It's not Giving. Since God doesn't care what you wear, I think it's a waste of effort - again, that's just me.

I disagree. Our bodies are Temples to the Holy Spirit. What we wear shows our respect for that Temple and the Savior who paid for it in His blood.

I think the Lord wants our best in everything we do. Why not our clothes? if the best we can do is a ragged shirt, great. If the best we can do is a nice suit or dress. Great. Its not the clothes itself, its the spirit behind why you wear them thats at issue.

[manu1959]

I disagree. Our bodies are Temples to the Holy Spirit. What we wear shows our respect for that Temple and the Savior who paid for it in His blood.

I think the Lord wants our best in everything we do. Why not our clothes? if the best we can do is a ragged shirt, great. If the best we can do is a nice suit or dress. Great. Its not the clothes itself, its the spirit behind why you wear them thats at issue.

if you are dressing out of respect to the lord then great.....but many dress to impress others.....in my opinion the lord does not care what you wear....nor where or how you worship.....

[avatar4321]

if you are dressing out of respect to the lord then great.....but many dress to impress others.....in my opinion the lord does not care what you wear....nor where or how you worship.....

dressing to impress is not good. It's a sign of pride.

[manu1959]

dressing to impress is not good. It's a sign of pride.

it can also be a sign of respect .... for example if i was to meet you for the frirst time in in a business setting coat and tie.....

[darin]

I disagree. Our bodies are Temples to the Holy Spirit. What we wear shows our respect for that Temple and the Savior who paid for it in His blood.

I think the Lord wants our best in everything we do. Why not our clothes? if the best we can do is a ragged shirt, great. If the best we can do is a nice suit or dress. Great. Its not the clothes itself, its the spirit behind why you wear them thats at issue.

Because clothes are superficial. It's impossible to impress God with how much or well we dress-up. God is different than meeting a dignitary, etc, because God so intimately knows us and communes with us on levels people cannot. Since God seess us always, it seems contrived we'd 'dress up' the day after the sabbath day in an effort to show him we Respect him.

[Abbey Marie]

The Catholic church used to require that females wear a head covering in church. I assume that was intended as a sign of respect for God. Intersestingly, men were (are?) not allowed to wear their hats in church. For men, it is apparently a sign of disrespect. Kind of weird when you think about it. Now it makes me think of Muslim rules on women covering their heads.

Does God care what we wear in church? I really doubt it. I think respect for your fellow churchgoers is important, though, as is dressing not to distract anyone, so short skirts, etc., would be inappropriate. Other than that, why can't I wear jeans and flip flops?

[crin63]

Heres an article on proper attire and its importance by Dennis Prager.

http://jewishworldreview.com/0604/prager060104.asp

If attire is not important then why did God want the children of Israel to wash their clothes (Ex. 19:10) when they were coming into his presence? By the line of thinking that attire doesn't matter then it should not have mattered to God if the children of Israel came into his presence in dirty clothing.

I agree with Abbey as far as short skirts and the like be distractions but I think this all goes back to the battle between Fundamentalists and New Evangelicals that took place in 1947 at Fuller Seminary. I see this as part of the end result of religious and cultural liberalism.

[avatar4321]

The Catholic church used to require that females wear a head covering in church. I assume that was intended as a sign of respect for God. Intersestingly, men were (are?) not allowed to wear their hats in church. For men, it is apparently a sign of disrespect. Kind of weird when you think about it. Now it makes me think of Muslim rules on women covering their heads.

Does God care what we wear in church? I really doubt it. I think respect for your fellow churchgoers is important, though, as is dressing not to distract anyone, so short skirts, etc., would be inappropriate. Other than that, why can't I wear jeans and flip flops?

I think the hair requirements were from something Paul said in corinthians.

My view is give your best to God. I think its good to show respect that way. but hey if your best is flip flops and jeans, why not? I dont think its the clothes as much the attitude.

[-Cp]

I disagree. Our bodies are Temples to the Holy Spirit. What we wear shows our respect for that Temple and the Savior who paid for it in His blood.

I think the Lord wants our best in everything we do. Why not our clothes? if the best we can do is a ragged shirt, great. If the best we can do is a nice suit or dress. Great. Its not the clothes itself, its the spirit behind why you wear them thats at issue.

Really?

Then what do you do when you're naked in the bath or shower? Do you try and hide behind a towel? After all, God is there with you - he see's you...

[Abbey Marie]

I think the hair requirements were from something Paul said in corinthians.

My view is give your best to God. I think its good to show respect that way. but hey if your best is flip flops and jeans, why not? I dont think its the clothes as much the attitude.

Avi, how does one judge what particular clothing is "giving your best"? Is it the cost of the clothing, or is it the level of conservative styling? Or is it a third option?

[-Cp]

Heres an article on proper attire and its importance by Dennis Prager.

http://jewishworldreview.com/0604/prager060104.asp

If attire is not important then why did God want the children of Israel to wash their clothes (Ex. 19:10) when they were coming into his presence? By the line of thinking that attire doesn't matter then it should not have mattered to God if the children of Israel came into his presence in dirty clothing.

I agree with Abbey as far as short skirts and the like be distractions but I think this all goes back to the battle between Fundamentalists and New Evangelicals that took place in 1947 at Fuller Seminary. I see this as part of the end result of religious and cultural liberalism.

Sacrificing lamb's blood as atonement also used to be important to God and the children of Israel - what's yer point?

The BIG underlying issue here is that too many Christians are duped into attending a "Church" anyways.... which almost always leads to some sort of legalism, and false pretenses - i.e. raising funds to build more buildings, spending tons of money on crap like LCD projectors, fancy P.A. gear, a stage, pews (or chairs), the list goes on and on to the amount of useless crap Christians feel somehow "blessed" to help buy out of their hard-earned dollars..

[Abbey Marie]

I think the hair requirements were from something Paul said in corinthians.

My view is give your best to God. I think its good to show respect that way. but hey if your best is flip flops and jeans, why not? I dont think its the clothes as much the attitude.

You reminded me that in the Bible a woman's hair was called her "crowning glory". So I suppose the idea is to hide what is glorious about you, so as to maintain a focused reverence during worship, and not draw attention to yourself.

[darin]

Really?

Then what do you do when you're naked in the bath or shower? Do you try and hide behind a towel? After all, God is there with you - he see's you...

I hide my body from him as a courtesy to HIM. Dec. 2004 wasn't a tsunami - it was God spitting-up after catching a glimpse of my fat ass. :(

[Abbey Marie]

Sacrificing lamb's blood as atonement also used to be important to God and the children of Israel - what's yer point?

The BIG underlying issue here is that too many Christians are duped into attending a "Church" anyways.... which almost always leads to some sort of legalism, and false pretenses - i.e. raising funds to build more buildings, spending tons of money on crap like LCD projectors, fancy P.A. gear, a stage, pews (or chairs), the list goes on and on to the amount of useless crap Christians feel somehow "blessed" to help buy out of their hard-earned dollars..

-Cp, I am not disgreeing with your point, but what do you think Christian dollars should be spent on? Missions? Ourselves? Pastors' salaries?

[-Cp]

-Cp, I am not disgreeing with your point, but what do you think Christian dollars should be spent on? Missions? Ourselves? Pastors' salaries?

Who said they need to be spent? I think that's part of the problem w/ Christians - we think we're doing our part by giving freakin' money but God can't cash out of state checks in Heaven (*thx for that quote Keith Green) - he needs Christians to act, to actually live out what they say they believe - he needs our hands and our feet to be put into motion.

[-Cp]

I hide my body from him as a courtesy to HIM. Dec. 2004 wasn't a tsunami - it was God spitting-up after catching a glimpse of my fat ass. :(

LMAO - too bad he has "X-ray" vision :P

[Abbey Marie]

Who said they need to be spent? I think that's part of the problem w/ Christians - we think we're doing our part by giving freakin' money but God can't cash out of state checks in Heaven (*thx for that quote Keith Green) - he needs Christians to act, to actually live out what they say they believe - he needs our hands and our feet to be put into motion.

So you are against sending money to missions which help others and spread the gospel? Not everyone can use their "hands and feet". Sometimes we have to enable other hands and feet to do the work with our financial support.

[Yurt]

CP and DMP:

do you criticize those that want to dress "up" for God?

do you criticize those that build a special building for God? say a temple

do you speak for God? do you know His thoughts?

[-Cp]

So you are against sending money to missions which help others and spread the gospel? Not everyone can use their "hands and feet". Sometimes we have to enable other hands and feet to do the work with our financial support.

What I'm against is Christians sending money to something that in order to feel good about themselves - rather than being "christ" to all men that by doing so some might be saved they send a check..

It's easier to send a check than it is to act out the goodness of who and what Christ is..

[-Cp]

CP and DMP:

do you criticize those that want to dress "up" for God?

do you criticize those that build a special building for God? say a temple

do you speak for God? do you know His thoughts?

Yes, yes, no and yes...

Despite the many warnings and lessons there are still people who insist on making rules about what is worn to the meeting on Sunday. If they think that God is impressed by a shiny piece of material tied around their neck then that is their idea, it is not what God has said. If they make rules about how others dress when God has clearly said He is looking at our hearts and not our outward garments, then it can cause those who see the futility of this to become disillusioned with groups who make rules of men that are not God’s rules.

God has told us that we came into the world naked and leave it naked. It is our characters that He looks at. It is PEOPLE who are impressed by fine clothing. The argument that we show respect to God by the way we dress is not a Biblical argument, rather God condemns those who place importance on outward show.

It is only when we are born of the spirit and begin to understand the things that really matter to God that we can get past living by rules and traditions of men which were the stumbling block for the pharisees.

[darin]

I don't criticize folk who 'dress up' - I think they do it sincerely, but it's pointless. I wonder if they realize it 'really' doesn't matter. I just hope they understand they aren't doing anything to bring them closer to God, nor does it benefit God.

[Yurt]

so you both do not speak for God.....

[darin]

God speaks for Himself. I'm just telling you what He's said.

(shrug)

You can use the "Oh! Hai! U sp33k 4 God?!" "argument" in an attempt to divert the point all you like. Regardless of the fact if I speak for God or not, what I'm saying is true. Look it up. Read what's there. Think on it. Figure things out. It's easy. :)

[Yurt]

God speaks for Himself. I'm just telling you what He's said.

(shrug)

You can use the "Oh! Hai! U sp33k 4 God?!" "argument" in an attempt to divert the point all you like. Regardless of the fact if I speak for God or not, what I'm saying is true. Look it up. Read what's there. Think on it. Figure things out. It's easy. :)

do you speak for God? yes or no. God has prophets, yes or no?

if what you say is true, then the 'text' speaks true OR 'you' speak true...

[darin]

do you speak for God? yes or no. God has prophets, yes or no?

if what you say is true, then the 'text' speaks true OR 'you' speak true...

Again with the diversion. God speaks for God. So - if I say what God says, am I "speaking for God" and thereby subject to ridicule? Sobeit. If what I say is true it's beacuse it's based on Biblical Principles. It's not "Either the Bible is True or dmp is True".

I'm saying Christ doesn't give a rat's ass (as demonstrated by His words and others in Biblical Texts) if we wear a tie, shorts, tux, bed-sheet to Church. God doesn't Need or Want (as demonstrated in Christ's Life, ministry, and teachings) a big precious "sacred" place for people to worship him.

If you call repeating what Christ said "speaking for God", then yes, I suppose I speak for God under your definition.

[Said1]

do you speak for God? yes or no. God has prophets, yes or no?

if what you say is true, then the 'text' speaks true OR 'you' speak true...

Do you still beat your wife? yes or no. :laugh2:


I think God will probably receive his naked. I don't think people where clothes in heaven, at least Adam and Eve didn't, but were they acutally IN heaven, or was Eden a sub-burb - small municipality?

[Yurt]

Do you still beat your wife? yes or no. :laugh2:


I think God will probably receive his naked. I don't think people where clothes in heaven, at least Adam and Eve didn't, but were they acutally IN heaven, or was Eden a sub-burb - small municipality?

WTF?

i honestly wanted to know....he answered....you strange cookie