Math....what are they teaching them?

[Trinity]

My 10 year old has not been doing very well in math this year. Which I found rather odd since math was always one of his better subjects. They have only been in school for 6 weeks now. He hasn't missed but 2 days of school so I was completely baffled on how he had such a poor grade in math.

I asked him to solve a problem like this one for me and then explain to me how he got his answer

4236
x 42
------

he did it and came up with an answer similar to this

1,848,456,256

I asked him to explain how he got that answer? And I still can not tell you how he got that, he had me confused. I said well no wonder you have a D in math. Here let me show you how to do it my way, which is how I was taught and so were most of us over the age of 25.

I showed him how I was taught, he says it's not right, I said yes it is, let me grab the calculator, I did it on the calculator and proved to him it was right. I then showed him how to do it one more time and he asks me where are the scissors? He gets his scissors out and cuts out the problem, I had just solved and shown him how to do.

He then states he is taking it to school to show his math teacher and says boy is she going to be embarrassed!:laugh2:

[krisy]

I am sooo glad you brought this up. I have have been bitching about this for a while now. Since Jacob was in 3rd grade or so. It's called "new math". Some jackass decided that the way millions of us learned wasn't good enough and that he'd better think of a better way to do it.

Because of this not one parent I know can help their kid with their homework because the way we learned is nothing like the way they are learning. I also think this new math is more confusing....what is the point?!!! I have had several conversations with other aggravated parents on this one. In our school district supposedly they will teach them the old and new way and let them choose how they want to do it. I'm not seeing it tho. When they bring something home it always looks like the new math to me.

Can ya tell I'm a little touchy on the subject?!!:laugh2:

[Kathianne]

You are not alone and haven't been for a long time:

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:cfkKy7Fp4fkJ:www.wpri.org/WIInterest/Vol10No1/Vukmir10.1.pdf+fuzzy+math+university+of+chicago&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a

The University of Chicago series worked wonderfully for my son, who happened to be naturally inclined towards mathematics. Actually I think it had more to do with his teacher. Luckily for my other two children, our schools had removed it from the general curriculum after a two year pilot. The only reason my youngest had it, they kept if for the gifted program.

University of Chicago isn't the worst text, but it's typical. In actuality the education proponents of 'fuzzy math' are against a textbook at all. What the U of C and other texts of its type provide is 'cover', as parents do expect math texts. There are few examples of how to work a problem. Instead are 'story problems' along with directions for kinesthetic learning methods or reflective writing on diversity and understanding. I'm NOT kidding, this is what is going on in math classes.

There are all sorts of parent groups that have been responding for close to a decade and successfully pressuring the schools to at minimum provide both. A word of warning: Whole language was an equivalent type of reading goof, it still is. Parents recognized most students had more problems learning to read, more alarmingly, more students developed learning disabilities and couldn't read. They demanded phonics be returned. The text publishers and education departments still are trying to pay lip service to phonics. However, too much research has proven the phonics works and teachers have become sold on at least including direct instruction into lesson plans.

[gabosaurus]

Perhaps you need a conference with the teacher. In many cases, it's not a lack of teaching. It's a lack of comprehension.

[jackass]

My daughter had the same issue. She actually got an F in it her first semester last year. (She is normally a straight A student) My wife sat with her and helped find a way that my daughter understood it. She now gets A's in Math too! :)

[Kathianne]

Perhaps you need a conference with the teacher. In many cases, it's not a lack of teaching. It's a lack of comprehension.

Visited any math classes lately? California is the mecca of fuzzy math and has the math scores to prove it.

[Kathianne]

My daughter had the same issue. She actually got an F in it her first semester last year. (She is normally a straight A student) My wife sat with her and helped find a way that my daughter understood it. She now gets A's in Math too! :)
That will work if the teacher grades all 'shown work' fairly. Often the student may get the correct answer, but if they didn't follow the instructions regarding 'show work', they still fail. (ie the 'old way' will NOT be accepted).

[jackass]

That will work if the teacher grades all 'shown work' fairly. Often the student may get the correct answer, but if they didn't follow the instructions regarding 'show work', they still fail. (ie the 'old way' will NOT be accepted).

Well Im sure that the teacher and I would have one lively discussion if my daughter got the correct answer and was marked wrong ;)

[Abbey Marie]

I always thought I was weak in Math. Then in HS, my boyfriend gave me about a 1/2 hour lesson in geometry fundamentals. I ace'd the course the rest of the year, and actually enjoyed a math class! Sometimes, teachers just cannot teach. I would get him a math tutor for just a couple of weeks and watch how things change.

[gabosaurus]

Visited any math classes lately? California is the mecca of fuzzy math and has the math scores to prove it.

I went to high school in California. I was on the math competition team. I was a math minor in college and have tutored middle school and high school students.
A lot of kids don't want to learn math. They want you to give them the answers, or allow them to use calculators or notes on exams.
Math is a very complex subject. It is also building. You can be a genius on lower levels of math, then lose track once it starts getting more difficult. Math requires you to pay attention and work through your difficulties. Many kids don't want to bother. That is why math scores are so low.
Showing work is an important part of upper level math. It is fairly easy to memorize questions and answers. That doesn't mean you understand it. I have had exams where you were given a question and an answer. You had to prove that the answer fit the question by going through the process of solving the problem.

This is where jackass would go nuts. I've had correct answers marked wrong because I didn't solve them in the correct manner. My "shown work" failed to equate to my answer.
You may know where the entrance and the exit are. But if you don't know how to get from one to the other, you will be permanently lost.

[Kathianne]

I went to high school in California. I was on the math competition team. I was a math minor in college and have tutored middle school and high school students.
A lot of kids don't want to learn math. They want you to give them the answers, or allow them to use calculators or notes on exams.
Math is a very complex subject. It is also building. You can be a genius on lower levels of math, then lose track once it starts getting more difficult. Math requires you to pay attention and work through your difficulties. Many kids don't want to bother. That is why math scores are so low.
Showing work is an important part of upper level math. It is fairly easy to memorize questions and answers. That doesn't mean you understand it. I have had exams where you were given a question and an answer. You had to prove that the answer fit the question by going through the process of solving the problem.

This is where jackass would go nuts. I've had correct answers marked wrong because I didn't solve them in the correct manner. My "shown work" failed to equate to my answer.
You may know where the entrance and the exit are. But if you don't know how to get from one to the other, you will be permanently lost.

So your experiences would reflect my one son's. That doesn't address the problem with new-new or fuzzy math. If the child is working the problem on their own, any competent math teacher should be able to follow the work shown. What's problematic is when the teacher says to effect, "Well that will get you the answer, but does not demonstrate you understand the process."

[krisy]

So your experiences would reflect my one son's. That doesn't address the problem with new-new or fuzzy math. If the child is working the problem on their own, any competent math teacher should be able to follow the work shown. What's problematic is when the teacher says to effect, "Well that will get you the answer, but does not demonstrate you understand the process."

Exactly. I have no problem with a teacher wanting to see work. The problem is the new math. It is more complicated than the old way. Why teach it to them and who thought this would be a better way is my question. If something ain't broke...don't fix it.

[Kathianne]

Exactly. I have no problem with a teacher wanting to see work. The problem is the new math. It is more complicated than the old way. Why teach it to them and who thought this would be a better way is my question. If something ain't broke...don't fix it.

Oh the problem is more complex than 'more complicated', in reality they are teaching something, (unsure what), different than math. It starts with the theory that if certain 'knowns' are provided, the child will stumble upon the math processes on their own. Stop laughing, they are serious. They are willing to gamble your children's academic future upon it.

It's all about looking for process, providing clues to algebra, trigonometry, calculus, geometry, all beginning in the earliest grades. For some reason, come 6th grade, the kids are so lost I'm unsure what can undo the damage.

[Trinity]

I am sooo glad you brought this up. I have have been bitching about this for a while now. Since Jacob was in 3rd grade or so. It's called "new math". Some jackass decided that the way millions of us learned wasn't good enough and that he'd better think of a better way to do it.

Because of this not one parent I know can help their kid with their homework because the way we learned is nothing like the way they are learning. I also think this new math is more confusing....what is the point?!!! I have had several conversations with other aggravated parents on this one. In our school district supposedly they will teach them the old and new way and let them choose how they want to do it. I'm not seeing it tho. When they bring something home it always looks like the new math to me.

Can ya tell I'm a little touchy on the subject?!!:laugh2:

Just a little bit. :laugh2:

[Trinity]

You are not alone and haven't been for a long time:

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:cfkKy7Fp4fkJ:www.wpri.org/WIInterest/Vol10No1/Vukmir10.1.pdf+fuzzy+math+university+of+chicago&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a

The University of Chicago series worked wonderfully for my son, who happened to be naturally inclined towards mathematics. Actually I think it had more to do with his teacher. Luckily for my other two children, our schools had removed it from the general curriculum after a two year pilot. The only reason my youngest had it, they kept if for the gifted program.

University of Chicago isn't the worst text, but it's typical. In actuality the education proponents of 'fuzzy math' are against a textbook at all. What the U of C and other texts of its type provide is 'cover', as parents do expect math texts. There are few examples of how to work a problem. Instead are 'story problems' along with directions for kinesthetic learning methods or reflective writing on diversity and understanding. I'm NOT kidding, this is what is going on in math classes.

There are all sorts of parent groups that have been responding for close to a decade and successfully pressuring the schools to at minimum provide both. A word of warning: Whole language was an equivalent type of reading goof, it still is. Parents recognized most students had more problems learning to read, more alarmingly, more students developed learning disabilities and couldn't read. They demanded phonics be returned. The text publishers and education departments still are trying to pay lip service to phonics. However, too much research has proven the phonics works and teachers have become sold on at least including direct instruction into lesson plans.

They were teaching whole reading when William was in elementary school and he struggled desperately with it. Till one day when he was in 1st grade I finally said enough let me show you phonics I taught him how to sound it out and wow he got it! In one sitting!

[Kathianne]

They were teaching whole reading when William was in elementary school and he struggled desperately with it. Till one day when he was in 1st grade I finally said enough let me show you phonics I taught him how to sound it out and wow he got it! In one sitting!

I believe you. For most kids having phonics taught is like giving them a key to reading, it nearly always works. In fact, it was the primary teaching method up until the late 50's, when 'basal' readers were introduced, the beginning of which were 'Dick and Jane'.

Truth is phonics worked for more than 98% of the kids in school, however there were those few, (dyslexia?), for whom something else needed to be tried, in special education. That 'something' had been whole language, based largely upon sight rather than sound. Some genius in an ivory tower, (probably writing a text), got the brilliant idea that if it works for those who 'couldn't ' read, how much better it must be than phonics! So here we are, still fighting that battle.

From what I can get from the fuzzy math readings, a similar deal from education theory is at hand. If everyone can come up on their own what the processes are, discovered by the ancient Mesopotamians forward, they will all become accomplished at math. Sigh. It's like not providing wheels until one creates their own.

[jackass]

Exactly. I have no problem with a teacher wanting to see work.

I do! There are multiple ways to do many Math problems. If you know a different way and can get the correct answer then it doesnt matter how you got it.

[Kathianne]

I do! There are multiple ways to do many Math problems. If you know a different way and can get the correct answer then it doesnt matter how you got it.

True, but still should be able to show the work. My complaint is when they say the 'work' doesn't fit their criteria, regardless of the answer and logic.

[jackass]

True, but still should be able to show the work. My complaint is when they say the 'work' doesn't fit their criteria, regardless of the answer and logic.

Ok. Some work, but whatever way the student gets it should be fine. Teachers who make students do it a certain way are just too ignorant to realize that not everyone thinks the same way.

[Kathianne]

Ok. Some work, but whatever way the student gets it should be fine. Teachers who make students do it a certain way are just too ignorant to realize that not everyone thinks the same way.

Not true. If I teach my kids the way I was taught, my guess is if my kids show the work the teacher can follow it. However, since it's not a process based method, depending on the district, the work will be ok'd or not. I really has zip to do whether or not the 'teacher' gets it. They just think the process, not the answer is incorrect.

Again, let me say, I think that the above is wrong. I think kids should memorize their addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, algebraic, and geometric facts and formulas. Kudos to understand the underlying logic, one of my kids out of 3, but all can deal with.

[jackass]

Not true. If I teach my kids the way I was taught, my guess is if my kids show the work the teacher can follow it. However, since it's not a process based method, depending on the district, the work will be ok'd or not. I really has zip to do whether or not the 'teacher' gets it. They just think the process, not the answer is incorrect.

Again, let me say, I think that the above is wrong. I think kids should memorize their addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, algebraic, and geometric facts and formulas. Kudos to understand the underlying logic, one of my kids out of 3, but all can deal with.

How can the process be wrong if you come up with the right answer?? I have a totally different way to do math. One that was never taught to me, just one that I figured out myself. Since I have started using it, I am much more accurate then before. How is the process wrong?

[Kathianne]

How can the process be wrong if you come up with the right answer?? I have a totally different way to do math. One that was never taught to me, just one that I figured out myself. Since I have started using it, I am much more accurate then before. How is the process wrong?

I don't teach math, so no way can I explain how they do or exactly what they are looking for. I do understand education theory though and have read plenty about the math problems and have heard parents complaining as well as teachers. There is a problem ordering books that give useful example for the students to follow or parents to help with.