Biden's 10 Factual Misstatements

[red states rule]

Karl Rove nailed Alan Colmes last night, with these 10 LIES Biden told during the debate

1) McCain voted the same as Obama on the budget resolution that calls for tax increases on people making as little as $42,000. FALSE

2) Under Obama, the top tax rate will not be higher than it was under Reagan (28%). FALSE (they want to return it to the Clinton 39.5%)

3) It will take at least ten years to get oil from new production. FALSE

4) The Use of Force resolution (Iraq) was not a war resolution. FALSE

5) McCain voted the same way as Obama on funding the troops. FALSE

6) We spend as much in three weeks in Iraq as we have spent in seven years in Afghanistan. FALSE

7) Article I of the Constitution refers to the Executive Branch. FALSE

8) There is a windfall profits tax in Alaska. FALSE

9) Obama voted for a nuclear weapons resolution. FALSE

10) McCain opposed Clinton on Bosnia. FALSE

[bullypulpit]

Karl Rove nailed Alan Colmes last night, with these 10 LIES Biden told during the debate

1) McCain voted the same as Obama on the budget resolution that calls for tax increases on people making as little as $42,000. FALSE

2) Under Obama, the top tax rate will not be higher than it was under Reagan (28%). FALSE (they want to return it to the Clinton 39.5%)

3) It will take at least ten years to get oil from new production. FALSE

4) The Use of Force resolution (Iraq) was not a war resolution. FALSE

5) McCain voted the same way as Obama on funding the troops. FALSE

6) We spend as much in three weeks in Iraq as we have spent in seven years in Afghanistan. FALSE

7) Article I of the Constitution refers to the Executive Branch. FALSE

8) There is a windfall profits tax in Alaska. FALSE

9) Obama voted for a nuclear weapons resolution. FALSE

10) McCain opposed Clinton on Bosnia. FALSE

Did you even bother to check the 'facts' as established by Karl "Should be trading cigarettes for his life in prison" Rove? No need to answer, I know you didn't. So, why don't you go <a href=http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_biden-palin_debate.html>HERE</a> and see the real gaffs on BOTH sides.

SO, you just keep uncritically cut-and-pastin' RWN talking points and leave the work of rational thought to those of us who are capable of it.

[Gaffer]

Dick Morris nailed colmes too. He called him on his use of talking points and told him to shut up. colmes did and hannity immediately jumped in to take over. colmes is another party above all liberal.

What a night, O' Reilly slams franks, Rove and Morris slam colmes. And Sarah takes down biden.

[red states rule]

Dick Morris nailed colmes too. He called him on his use of talking points and told him to shut up. colmes did and hannity immediately jumped in to take over. colmes is another party above all liberal.

What a night, O' Reilly slams franks, Rove and Morris slam colmes. And Sarah takes down biden.

A very bad night for libs - but a great night for America. Now the libs are in full spin and attack mode

I am waiting to see the polls in the next 48 hours - I suspect there will be a shift toward the Palin/McCain ticket

[bullypulpit]

Dick Morris nailed colmes too. He called him on his use of talking points and told him to shut up. colmes did and hannity immediately jumped in to take over. colmes is another party above all liberal.

What a night, O' Reilly slams franks, Rove and Morris slam colmes. And Sarah takes down biden.

You mean "prostitute toe-sucker"Dick Morris? And what about Caribou Barbies unremitting use of memorized talking points rather than any genuine understanding of the issues she was questioned on? Puhleeze.

[red states rule]

You mean "prostitute toe-sucker"Dick Morris? And what about Caribou Barbies unremitting use of memorized talking points rather than any genuine understanding of the issues she was questioned on? Puhleeze.

Funny how you libs loved him when he nwas a hatchet man for the Clintons, now that he is doing their dirty work for them - you hate him

Why not take a shot at proving what he said is wrong instead of your child like rants

[actsnoblemartin]

i do happen to agree here.

if he prostitutes for me, he is awsome

if he prostitutes against me, he is satan

does sound a bit hypocritical :laugh2:


Funny how you libs loved him when he nwas a hatchet man for the Clintons, now that he is doing their dirty work for them - you hate him

Why not take a shot at proving what he said is wrong instead of your child like rants

[red states rule]

i do happen to agree here.

if he prostitutes for me, he is awsome

if he prostitutes against me, he is satan

does sound a bit hypocritical :laugh2:

His actions with a prostitute should be a resume enhancement with the left Martin

[actsnoblemartin]

His actions with a prostitute should be a resume enhancement with the left Martin

:laugh2:

:clap:

I love political humor

[red states rule]

:laugh2:

:clap:

I love political humor

What humor - it is true.

[actsnoblemartin]

What humor - it is true.

I dont consider dick a prositute then or now.

he is brilliant.

[red states rule]

I dont consider dick a prositute then or now.

he is brilliant.

Anyone who makes libs like BP meltdown has to be doing something right

[Joe Steel]

Karl Rove nailed Alan Colmes last night, with these 10 LIES Biden told during the debate...

Without wading through all of Rove's nonsense, I noted error the idiot made:


7) Article I of the Constitution refers to the Executive Branch. FALSE



That wasn't the issue. Miss Wasilla was talking about the Vice President's role in the Senate. Whatever she said was wrong and Biden corrected her. Here's what Article I says:


The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no vote, unless they be equally divided.

Miss Wasilla and Rove were misunderstood the issue.

[red states rule]

Joey, here is what Biden said

Vice President Cheney has been the most dangerous vice president we’ve had probably in American history. The idea he doesn’t realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the vice president of the United States, that’s the Executive Branch. He works in the Executive Branch. He should understand that. Everyone should understand that


So it looks like Biden was WRONG

Article II focuses on the Executive Branch of government

[Yurt]

You mean "prostitute toe-sucker"Dick Morris? And what about Caribou Barbies unremitting use of memorized talking points rather than any genuine understanding of the issues she was questioned on? Puhleeze.

you mean like when biden repeatedly kept numbering obama talking points....number 1...number 2....biden actually had to count off his talking points...i hear that methods works better for memorization :laugh2:

[Yurt]

Without wading through all of Rove's nonsense, I noted error the idiot made:



That wasn't the issue. Miss Wasilla was talking about the Vice President's role in the Senate. Whatever she said was wrong and Biden corrected her. Here's what Article I says:



Miss Wasilla and Rove were misunderstood the issue.

you're right, Article one does say that, but i don't recall biden saying that to "correct" palin

[red states rule]

Article 1 covers Legislative power

Article 2 covers Executive power

So Rove was right and Biden was wrong

[Joe Steel]

you're right, Article one does say that, but i don't recall biden saying that to "correct" palin

Here's what Biden said:


BIDEN: Vice President Cheney has been the most dangerous vice president we've had probably in American history. The idea he doesn't realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the vice president of the United States, that's the Executive Branch. He works in the Executive Branch. He should understand that. Everyone should understand that.

And the primary role of the vice president of the United States of America is to support the president of the United States of America, give that president his or her best judgment when sought, and as vice president, to preside over the Senate, only in a time when in fact there's a tie vote. The Constitution is explicit.

The only authority the vice president has from the legislative standpoint is the vote, only when there is a tie vote. He has no authority relative to the Congress. The idea he's part of the Legislative Branch is a bizarre notion invented by Cheney to aggrandize the power of a unitary executive and look where it has gotten us. It has been very dangerous.

He was a bit unclear but he was saying the Vice President's role is very limited. It's not what Cheney tried to make it or what Palin tried to say it was.

[red states rule]

Here's what Biden said:



He was saying the Vice President's role is very limited. It's not what Cheney tried to make it or what Palin tried to say it was.

Joey. Article One does NOT cover the role of the VP

All that is said about the VP is al follows

The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.


Perhaps Biden was saying VP Cheney should have done nothing but break ties in the Senate and nothing else

[Yurt]

Here's what Biden said:



He was a bit unclear but he was saying the Vice President's role is very limited. It's not what Cheney tried to make it or what Palin tried to say it was.

how exactly is that correcting what palin said?

[Joe Steel]

Joey. Article One does NOT cover the role of the VP

All that is said about the VP is al follows

The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.


Perhaps Biden was saying VP Cheney should have done nothing but break ties in the Senate and nothing else

Article I says more about the duties of the Vice President than does Article II. Biden was substantively correct.

[red states rule]

Article I says more about the duties of the Vice President than does Article II. Biden was substantively correct.

Why am I not surprised you have no idea what you are talking about?

Please read the US Constitution and get back to me

[namvet]

actually Biden told 14 lies

1. TAX VOTE: Biden said McCain voted “the exact same way” as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY.

2. AHMEDINIJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmedinijad of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it.

3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.”

4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it’s passage.

5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he’s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean coal and coal in the U.S. Senate.

6. ALERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John McCain’s record voting for alternative energy when he says he voted against it 23 times.

7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people's health insurance coverage -- they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false

8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska -- she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it's not a windfall profits tax.

9. AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO's International Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan.

10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation -- he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie.

11. IRAQ: When Joe Biden lied when he said that John McCain was “dead wrong on Iraq”, because Joe Biden shared the same vote to authorize the war and differed on the surge strategy where they John McCain has been proven right.

12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn’t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.

13. BAILOUT: Biden said the economic rescue legislation matches the four principles that Obama laid out, but in reality it doesn’t meet two of the four principles that Obama outlined on Sept. 19, which were that it include an emergency economic stimulus package, and that it be part of “part of a globally coordinated effort with our partners in the G-20.”

14. REAGAN TAX RATES: Biden is wrong in saying that under Obama, Americans won't pay any more in taxes then they did under Reagan.

[Immanuel]

Senator Biden claimed that individuals making less than $250k would not see "one penny" tax increase of any taxes... not one single solitary cent. Yet, Senator Obama has spoken about the need to increase the cap on the Social Security limit. This year's limit is $102,000. Now, the Senator is talking about removing the limit completely in order to "save" Social Security. If you eliminate the limit then you have effectively increased the tax on anyone making $102,001 or more.

Was Senator Biden lying when he said, that no taxpayer making less than $250,000 would see "one penny" of his taxes increased?

Immie

[red states rule]

Senator Biden claimed that individuals making less than $250k would not see "one penny" tax increase of any taxes... not one single solitary cent. Yet, Senator Obama has spoken about the need to increase the cap on the Social Security limit. This year's limit is $102,000. Now, the Senator is talking about removing the limit completely in order to "save" Social Security. If you eliminate the limit then you have effectively increased the tax on anyone making $102,001 or more.

Was Senator Biden lying when he said, that no taxpayer making less than $250,000 would see "one penny" of his taxes increased?

Immie

Do not forget the increase in the dividend and capital gains tax. It is LIE Immie, when Obama, or anyone else says only those making $250,000/yr will pay more in taxes

[GW in Ohio]

Karl Rove nailed Alan Colmes last night, with these 10 LIES Biden told during the debate

1) McCain voted the same as Obama on the budget resolution that calls for tax increases on people making as little as $42,000. FALSE

2) Under Obama, the top tax rate will not be higher than it was under Reagan (28%). FALSE (they want to return it to the Clinton 39.5%)

3) It will take at least ten years to get oil from new production. FALSE

4) The Use of Force resolution (Iraq) was not a war resolution. FALSE

5) McCain voted the same way as Obama on funding the troops. FALSE

6) We spend as much in three weeks in Iraq as we have spent in seven years in Afghanistan. FALSE

7) Article I of the Constitution refers to the Executive Branch. FALSE

8) There is a windfall profits tax in Alaska. FALSE

9) Obama voted for a nuclear weapons resolution. FALSE

10) McCain opposed Clinton on Bosnia. FALSE

red states: Nobody gives a shit about "He made false statements....she made false statements."

They both did, but that's not what's significant about these debates. Voters are sizing these people up, checking the cut of their jib, seeing if they're presidential or vice presidential material.

Nobody cares about the petty shit shit you took so much trouble to list. People are looking at the candidates at a much higher level.

But if it makes you feel good to go around saying, "Sarah won 'cause Biden's a liar," by all means, knock yourself out.

[red states rule]

red states: Nobody gives a shit about "He made false statements....she made false statements."

They both did, but that's not what's significant about these debates. Voters are sizing these people up, checking the cut of their jib, seeing if they're presidential or vice presidential material.

Nobody cares about the petty shit shit you took so much trouble to list. People are looking at the candidates at a much higher level.

But if it makes you feel good to go around saying, "Sarah won 'cause Biden's a liar," by all means, knock yourself out.

Since when do you care that Dems lie? But if a Republican mispronounces a word or name, you pounce all over it

Is the higher level to you, who can lie and bullshit the best?

[Sitarro]

Once again Biden looked like a used car sales manager stepping in to make the sale, so what if he's selling a car that doesn't run, has no accessories and has four flat tires....... he'll point out how nice the color matches your eyes and how good you'll look driving it.

He was lucky he had a podium to hide his flag flying at half staff as he leered at the much younger and vibrant Palin.:laugh2:

[red states rule]

Once again Biden looked like a used car sales manager stepping in to make the sale, so what if he's selling a car that doesn't run, has no accessories and has four flat tires....... he'll point out how nice the color matches your eyes and how good you'll look driving it.

He was lucky he had a podium to hide his flag flying at half staff as he leered at the much younger and vibrant Palin.:laugh2:

and a car with no engine. No maintance costs. No expensive gas to buy. And you will not pollute the planet with destructive emissions

He was beaten badly by the hockey mom

[OCA]

Mrs. Wasilla came out on top because after her fuck ups and airhead moves of the last couple weeks all she was expected to know last night was her name, to be able to count to ten and what city she was in.....................the jury is still out on the count to ten thing.

"can we go back to energy again":laugh2::laugh2:

Biden, although a piece of shit made her look silly and desperate.

Seems as though many Americans agree with that assessment in accordance with the big picture.....check out battleground state polls especially PA and FL.........the people of PA are a fine bunch of patriots.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/#data

Osama has increased his lead over Johnny Lib from just a few days ago:laugh2:

[OCA]

Once again Biden looked like a used car sales manager stepping in to make the sale, so what if he's selling a car that doesn't run, has no accessories and has four flat tires....... he'll point out how nice the color matches your eyes and how good you'll look driving it.

He was lucky he had a podium to hide his flag flying at half staff as he leered at the much younger and vibrant Palin.:laugh2:

Sitarro do you agree that the current economic shithole America is in, that deregulationist conservative Repubs are solely to blame? I mean thats fairly obvious so i'm not sure how you can't say that Repubs are driving a brokedown jalopy also.

[namvet]

Biden spent to much time flammin' Bush. over and over. and she kept saying he was living in the past. :laugh2:

[OCA]

Biden spent to much time flammin' Bush. over and over. and she kept saying he was living in the past. :laugh2:

So because Bush has fucked the country up badly we should just sweep it under the rug because...well.....its damaging to Repubs? Seems most of the country disagrees with you.............."can we go back to energy again?":laugh2:

What a fucking party hack.

[namvet]

So because Bush has fucked the country up badly we should just sweep it under the rug because...well.....its damaging to Repubs? Seems most of the country disagrees with you.............."can we go back to energy again?":laugh2:

What a fucking party hack.


Seems most of the country disagrees with you

:link::link:

[OCA]

Debate poll says Biden won, Palin beat expectations


(CNN) -- A national poll of people who watched the vice presidential debate Thursday night suggests that Democratic Sen. Joe Biden won, but also says Republican Gov. Sarah Palin exceeded expectations.
Poll respondents give Sen. Joe Biden the edge over Gov. Sarah Palin in ability to express views.

Poll respondents give Sen. Joe Biden the edge over Gov. Sarah Palin in ability to express views.

The CNN/Opinion Research Corp. said 51 percent of those polled thought Biden did the best job, while 36 percent thought Palin did the best job.

But respondents said the folksy Palin was more likable, scoring 54 percent to Biden's 36 percent. Seventy percent said Biden was more of a typical politician.

Both candidates exceeded expectations -- 84 percent of the people polled said Palin did a better job than they expected, while 64 percent said Biden also exceeded expectations.

How Palin would perform had been a major issue for the Alaska governor, who had some well-publicized fumbles during interviews with CBS' Katie Couric leading up to the debate.

Respondents thought Biden was better at expressing his views, giving him 52 percent to Palin's 36 percent.iReport.com: Tell us who you think did best

On the question of the candidates' qualifications to assume the presidency, 87 percent of those polled said Biden is qualified and 42 percent said Palin is qualified.
Don't Miss

* Biden, Palin face off
* Election Center 2008
* Full debate transcript

The candidates sparred over which team would be the better agent of change, and Biden came out on top of that debate, with 53 percent of those polled giving the nod to the Delaware senator while 42 percent said Palin was more likely to bring change.

Respondents overwhelmingly said moderator Gwen Ifill was fair during the vice presidential debate, repudiating critics who said that Ifill, of PBS, would be biased because she is writing a book that includes Biden's running mate, Sen. Barack Obama.

Ninety-five percent of those polled said Ifill was fair.

The poll had a margin of error of plus or minus 4 percentage points.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/03/debate.poll/index.html


Boy can't wait to hear "but its CNN, they are biased!" Just google it and you will find almost all polls are the same.................she got out of it what she could because Joe wasn't allowed to bring out the big guns or you party hacks would've crucified him for being too tough and condescending.

She got smoked....really she is not qualified.

[namvet]

So because Bush has fucked the country up badly we should just sweep it under the rug because...well.....its damaging to Repubs? Seems most of the country disagrees with you.............."can we go back to energy again?":laugh2:

What a fucking party hack.

overandoverandoverandover

[OCA]

overandoverandoverandover

*Namvet, as usual, has nothing intelligent to say..........OCA is way too fucking intelligent for this moron*

yawn

[namvet]

*OCA, as usual, has nothing intelligent to say........

yawn

nough said moron

[OCA]

nough said moron

WOW! You just learned to edit posts like Sarah learned her own name.......congratulations.

Really....why do we have to deal with jackoffs like Nam? He's well below the average intelligence level here, just regurgitates the same old tired extreme right wing vitriol that is behind the current mess America finds itself in.

Probably heard it all on Rush.

[Immanuel]

Boy can't wait to hear "but its CNN, they are biased!" Just google it and you will find almost all polls are the same.................she got out of it what she could because Joe wasn't allowed to bring out the big guns or you party hacks would've crucified him for being too tough and condescending.

She got smoked....really she is not qualified.

Did you see the segment after the debate that was done in Las Vegas? They showed a group of independent voters who watched the debate together. They had a device from Nielsen Rating that allowed them to register how they felt the debate was going. They showed a segment with the graph of how these people were feeling about the debate. Senator Biden was talking about the War in Iraq and the graph was climbing for him. As soon as Gov. Palin started speaking the graph plummetted to her favor.

They did say that most independents felt Senator Biden won, but the Nielsen Rating thing was kind of cool. I also heard on the radio this morning that something like 46% of people claiming to be independent favored Senator Biden, while 21% favored Gov. Palin.

Take that for what it is worth, but at least the day after the numbers don't look great for the Gov. Although, I must say, I liked her much more that "same ole shit different package" Biden.

Immie

[namvet]

WOW! You just learned to edit posts like Sarah learned her own name.......congratulations.

Really....why do we have to deal with jackoffs like Nam? He's well below the average intelligence level here, just regurgitates the same old tired extreme right wing vitriol that is behind the current mess America finds itself in.

Probably heard it all on Rush.

still pissed about Hillary huh???? watch the name calling. ok??? take a stress pill or smoke your pot. something up your ass spit it out.

link (link)


OCA

http://right-mind.us/blogs/intolerista_island/V2020Hippies_small.jpg

[OCA]

watch the name calling. ok???


Nope, not gonna play the "mercy" game, do or say something that proves you aren't as I label you and i'll take mercy on you...................until then you will get labeled accordingly.

[OCA]

What this guy doesn't understand is he's not conservative, he doesn't understand that i'm the true conservative and by him supporting a liberal like John McCain he just further drives the Republican party away from conservatism.

[namvet]

Nope, not gonna play the "mercy" game, do or say something that proves you aren't as I label you and i'll take mercy on you...................until then you will get labeled accordingly.

whats "mercy" ???? your just pissed cause she stood up to your man with 2 brain tumors. make that 3 counting you cheese dick.

http://members.shaw.ca/mrayner/Libranos.jpg

:lol::lol:

AU-EpU13K_o

[namvet]

What this guy doesn't understand is he's not conservative, he doesn't understand that i'm the true conservative and by him supporting a liberal like John McCain he just further drives the Republican party away from conservatism.

running away ????:lol:

[namvet]

Sitarro do you agree that the current economic shithole America is in, that deregulationist conservative Repubs are solely to blame? I mean thats fairly obvious so i'm not sure how you can't say that Repubs are driving a brokedown jalopy also.


did you say conservative Repubs asshat liberal????

fiXwZI_YqHY

[red states rule]

McCain voted FOR the Gulf War, Biden voted against

McCain warned that we needed more troops to carry out the war in Iraq, Bush and Rumsfeld were wrong.

McCain was right to sound the alarm and call for reining in Fannie and Freddy, the entire Democrat banking committee was wrong.

McCain is right quite a lot, and Biden and 0bama have been wrong quite a lot.

[namvet]

McCain voted FOR the Gulf War, Biden voted against

McCain warned that we needed more troops to carry out the war in Iraq, Bush and Rumsfeld were wrong.

McCain was right to sound the alarm and call for reining in Fannie and Freddy, the entire Democrat banking committee was wrong.

McCain is right quite a lot, and Biden and 0bama have been wrong quite a lot.

notice she kept on Biden's ass about Osama's energy plan???? he has none !!!!!

[red states rule]

notice she kept on Biden's ass about Osama's energy plan???? he has none !!!!!

What is there to talk about?

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/bg0807j.jpg

[manu1959]

biden the foreign policy expert.....made how many mistakes concerning hamas / hezbolah.....

[red states rule]

biden the foreign policy expert.....made how many mistakes concerning hamas / hezbolah.....

and this idiot is to provide Obama his foreign policy experience :laugh2:

Biden may have set a record for lies and gaffes in a single debate

[Yurt]

biden the foreign policy expert.....made how many mistakes concerning hamas / hezbolah.....

i don't know, how many?

was it me... when he and palin shook hands ... he looked randy, i would have, good lord, can't remember the last time a politician walked out in a black suit and red pumps....

[namvet]

i don't know, how many?

was it me... when he and palin shook hands ... he looked randy, i would have, good lord, can't remember the last time a politician walked out in a black suit and red pumps....

and say your balls belong to me !!!!!

[Yurt]

and say your balls belong to me !!!!!

are you saying what palin is thinking? or ..... gross homeboy

[namvet]

are you saying what palin is thinking? or ..... gross homeboy

what palin is thinking. don't call ME no homeboy less you been around the world. got it????

[Yurt]

what palin is thinking. don't call ME no homeboy less you been around the world. got it????

whatever.........homeboy

do you even know what the term means?

[red states rule]

:popcorn:

[Joe Steel]

Why am I not surprised you have no idea what you are talking about?

Please read the US Constitution and get back to me

What good would it do?

Obviously, you haven't read any of the Constitution so you wouldn't know the difference.

[red states rule]

What good would it do?

Obviously, you haven't read any of the Constitution so you wouldn't know the difference.

I have many times

If I was wrong your fellow moonbats like BP and MFM would have already called me on it.

[jimnyc]

What good would it do?

I agree, Joe. You reading the Constitution would be a futile effort. While I have no doubts that you could pronounce the big words, there is a little thing called comprehension that you've shown time and time again that you cannot grasp.

When in doubt, blame it on "rhetorical convenience" :lol:

[OCA]

did you say conservative Repubs asshat liberal????

fiXwZI_YqHY

You obviously aren't paying attention, everyone agrees that deregulation, originally started by Reagan and furthered by other Repubs has caused the current financial meltdown despite what your cute little video says.

Get over it.

[OCA]

running away ????:lol:

What you fail to understand is i've achieved the status here of responding when I want and how I want...............I don't answer to drug addled old vets like yourself.

You wish i'd run away because you could get a reprieve from the ass whippings I constantly lay on you.

Lets look at today's polling, shall we? Lets see where your precious Johnny Lib stands now.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html

Not alot of red there, maybe it has to do with the fact that Johnny doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground and the people are figuring it out........especially after his meltdown on the bailout.

[namvet]

You obviously aren't paying attention, everyone agrees that deregulation, originally started by Reagan and furthered by other Repubs has caused the current financial meltdown despite what your cute little video says.

Get over it.

eat it ya jackoff...................

[namvet]

What you fail to understand is i've achieved the status here of responding when I want and how I want...............I don't answer to drug addled old vets like yourself.

You wish i'd run away because you could get a reprieve from the ass whippings I constantly lay on you.

Lets look at today's polling, shall we? Lets see where your precious Johnny Lib stands now.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html

Not alot of red there, maybe it has to do with the fact that Johnny doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground and the people are figuring it out........especially after his meltdown on the bailout.

eat more ya lame ass 3 legged donkey

[namvet]

What you fail to understand is i've achieved the status here of responding when I want and how I want...............I don't answer to drug addled old vets like yourself.

You wish i'd run away because you could get a reprieve from the ass whippings I constantly lay on you.

Lets look at today's polling, shall we? Lets see where your precious Johnny Lib stands now.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html

Not alot of red there, maybe it has to do with the fact that Johnny doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground and the people are figuring it out........especially after his meltdown on the bailout.

yeah we all know your a legend in your own mind. fucker

[red states rule]

What you fail to understand is i've achieved the status here of responding when I want and how I want...............I don't answer to drug addled old vets like yourself.

You wish i'd run away because you could get a reprieve from the ass whippings I constantly lay on you.

Lets look at today's polling, shall we? Lets see where your precious Johnny Lib stands now.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html

Not alot of red there, maybe it has to do with the fact that Johnny doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground and the people are figuring it out........especially after his meltdown on the bailout.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/Da_Grimm_One/DAP.jpg

[OCA]

yeah we all know your a legend in your own mind. fucker

No, not really, its an earned status, completely appropriate.

[Kathianne]

You obviously aren't paying attention, everyone agrees that deregulation, originally started by Reagan and furthered by other Repubs has caused the current financial meltdown despite what your cute little video says.

Get over it.

Not 'everyone', hardly anyone except you 'conservatives', such as yourself, Bully, MSM, and Joe Steel.

[gabosaurus]

I suppose everyone is happy to ignore Palin's factual misstatements. Which were just as many.

[OCA]

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/Da_Grimm_One/DAP.jpg

Thanks for the evidence that i'm right since you resorted to a dumbass pic.

Are you coming to D.C. for the Obama inauguration?

[namvet]

No, not really, its an earned status, completely appropriate.


http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/Da_Grimm_One/DAP.jpg

[OCA]

Not 'everyone', hardly anyone except you 'conservatives', such as yourself, Bully, MSM, and Joe Steel.

Obviously you are ignoring all comments from economic experts the last couple weeks, I understand though...............its quite damaging.

[red states rule]

Thanks for the evidence that i'm right since you resorted to a dumbass pic.

Are you coming to D.C. for the Obama inauguration?

I thought you said it would be Hillary's inauguration :laugh2:

[namvet]

Thanks for the evidence that i'm right since you resorted to a dumbass pic.

Are you coming to D.C. for the Obama inauguration?


http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/Da_Grimm_One/DAP.jpg

[OCA]

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/Da_Grimm_One/DAP.jpg

The green eyes of jealousy are ugly..........real ugly.

[OCA]

I thought you said it would be Hillary's inauguration :laugh2:


Doesn't matter now, just as long as its not a Repub's inauguration..............they have ruined the country.

[namvet]

The green eyes of jealousy are ugly..........real ugly.


[CENTER]http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/Da_Grimm_One/DAP.jpg/CENTER]

[OCA]

I suppose everyone is happy to ignore Palin's factual misstatements. Which were just as many.

"can we go back to energy please?":laugh2:

[red states rule]

Doesn't matter now, just as long as its not a Repub's inauguration..............they have ruined the country.

Such anger all because you can't stand the fact you went with Hillary and lost. Now everyone be damned, OCA is having a temper tantrum and backing the Dems

[OCA]

Anyone reading this will notice that the old herion addict and guy who cried for mercy from me is unwilling to debate me, the master. The facts I present are way too much for him to deal with.

[OCA]

Such anger all because you can't stand the fact you went with Hillary and lost. Now everyone be damned, OCA is having a temper tantrum and backing the Dems

Nope, i'm voting 3rd party because I will not support a liberal like Johnny nor will I support the party that has brought America to its knees.

[namvet]

Nope, i'm voting 3rd party because I will not support a liberal like Johnny nor will I support the party that has brought America to its knees.


k-C6sb_W4lE

[red states rule]

Nope, i'm voting 3rd party because I will not support a liberal like Johnny nor will I support the party that has brought America to its knees.

So do your part to elect the Dems, and make the situation worse. It should tell you something when you are the same page as MFM, BP, PB, and the other liberal moonbats

But you are pissed off and not thinking clearly

[OCA]

So do your part to elect the Dems, and make the situation worse. It should tell you something when you are the same page as MFM, BP, PB, and the other liberal moonbats

But you are pissed off and not thinking clearly

Nope that argument doesn't fly. If i'm correct you said you aren't voting for McCain either, wouldn't that make you a defacto supporter of Osama also?

Or, are you as I suspect, a complete fucking liar and have loved Johnny lib all along?

[OCA]

Actually though, in the eyes of most Americans, more tax cuts for the rich, which is what Johnny Lib supports will make America worse.

[red states rule]

Nope that argument doesn't fly. If i'm correct you said you aren't voting for McCain either, wouldn't that make you a defacto supporter of Osama also?

Or, are you as I suspect, a complete fucking liar and have loved Johnny lib all along?

I am not voting for McCain. I am voting for Gov Palin. I do not like McCain, and I never have

Obama would be much worse, and his policies are much like Carter's.

You on the other hand are pissed off at the world, and you will not be happy until you get your 'revenge"

Your suspicions as usual are wrong, much like your perdicitons

[namvet]

Nope that argument doesn't fly. If i'm correct you said you aren't voting for McCain either, wouldn't that make you a defacto supporter of Osama also?

Or, are you as I suspect, a complete fucking liar and have loved Johnny lib all along?

your not voting for Osama either.

[red states rule]

Actually though, in the eyes of most Americans, more tax cuts for the rich, which is what Johnny Lib supports will make America worse.

Considering the "rich" pay the majority of the taxes, when you pass tax cuts those who pay the taxes get the cut

Or are you so desperate you have too fall back on liberal talking points?

[OCA]

I am not voting for McCain. I am voting for Gov Palin. I do not like McCain, and I never have

Obama would be much worse, and his policies are much like Carter's.

You on the other hand are pissed off at the world, and you will not be happy until you get your 'revenge"

Your suspicions as usual are wrong, much like your perdicitons

Voting for Mrs. Wasilla!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:laugh2::laugh2::laug h2:

Did you see the Katie Couric interview? Without the daily talking points paper in front of her like she had at the debate Mrs. Wasilla doesn't know politics from Sebastian hair products, she is just that stupid and is dragging McCain down with her plummeting poll numbers.

[red states rule]

Voting for Mrs. Wasilla!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:laugh2::laugh2::laug h2:

Did you see the Katie Couric interview? Without the daily talking points paper in front of her like she had at the debate Mrs. Wasilla doesn't know politics from Sebastian hair products, she is just that stupid and is dragging McCain down with her plummeting poll numbers.

and I saw her wipe the floor with Joe. I see her taking the gloves off and going after your guy Obama

Tell us again how you are a conservative when you are now whining about tax cuts for the rich? :laugh2:

[namvet]

Voting for Mrs. Wasilla!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:laugh2::laugh2::laug h2:

Did you see the Katie Couric interview? Without the daily talking points paper in front of her like she had at the debate Mrs. Wasilla doesn't know politics from Sebastian hair products, she is just that stupid and is dragging McCain down with her plummeting poll numbers.

and how much did Osama scam from the Mortgage melt down. how much???

[OCA]

Considering the "rich" pay the majority of the taxes, when you pass tax cuts those who pay the taxes get the cut

Or are you so desperate you have too fall back on liberal talking points?

Actually they don't after they wriggle through the loopholes.

Being a deadbeat loafer who spends most of his days on messageboards I would think you'd be for a middle and lower class tax cut, interesting.

[namvet]

Actually they don't after they wriggle through the loopholes.

Being a deadbeat loafer who spends most of his days on messageboards I would think you'd be for a middle and lower class tax cut, interesting.

or listening to a cry baby like you fucktard

[red states rule]

Actually they don't after they wriggle through the loopholes.

Being a deadbeat loafer who spends most of his days on messageboards I would think you'd be for a middle and lower class tax cut, interesting.

Well the IRS reported how the top 1% now pay 40% of all Federal income taxes

So they are paying more after the Bush tax cuts then they were before the Bush tax cut

But then again you are the one who said the mob is all but gone :laugh2:

[OCA]

and how much did Osama scam from the Mortgage melt down. how much???

Not much but why don't you get me some right wing link to say his real name is fucking Freddie or Fannie.

For chrissakes the desperation sweat wreaks on you guys!

[red states rule]

Not much but why don't you get me some right wing link to say his real name is fucking Freddie or Fannie.

For chrissakes the desperation sweat wreaks on you guys!

He is # 3 on the list

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac Invest in Democrats
Published by Lindsay Renick Mayer on July 16, 2008 5:27 PM | Permalink | Comments (16)
(For an updated chart that includes contributions from Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae's PACs and employees to ALL lawmakers back to 1989, including to their leadership PACs, go here.) and data The federal government recently announced that it will come to the rescue of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, two embattled mortgage buyers that for years have pursued a lobbying strategy to get lawmakers on their side. Both companies have poured money into lobbying and campaign contributions to federal candidates, parties and committees as a general tactic, but they've also directed those contributions strategically. In the 2006 election cycle, Fannie Mae was giving 53 percent of its total $1.3 million in contributions to Republicans, who controlled Congress at that time. This cycle, with Democrats in control, they've reversed course, giving the party 56 percent of their total $1.1 million in contributions. Similarly, Freddie Mac has given 53 percent of its $555,700 in contributions to Democrats this cycle, compared to the 44 percent it gave during 2006.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have also strategically given more contributions to lawmakers currently sitting on committees that primarily regulate their industry. Fifteen of the 25 lawmakers who have received the most from the two companies combined since the 1990 election sit on either the House Financial Services Committee; the Senate Banking, Housing & Urban Affairs Committee; or the Senate Finance Committee. The others have seats on the powerful Appropriations or Ways & Means committees, are members of the congressional leadership or have run for president. Sen. Chris Dodd (D-Conn.), chairman of the Senate banking committee, has received the most from Fannie and Freddie's PACs and employees ($133,900 since 1989). Rep. Paul Kanjorski (D-Pa.) has received $65,500. Kanjorski chairs the House Financial Services Subcommittee on Capital Markets, Insurance and Government-Sponsored Enterprises, and Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae are government-sponsored enterprises, or GSEs.

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2008/07/top-senate-recipients-of-fanni.html

[OCA]

Well the IRS reported how the top 1% now pay 40% of all Federal income taxes

So they are paying more after the Bush tax cuts then they were before the Bush tax cut

But then again you are the one who said the mob is all but gone :laugh2:

And they should pay more and the middle class much less, I say raise the shit out of the rich's taxes and corporations too.

[namvet]

Not much but why don't you get me some right wing link to say his real name is fucking Freddie or Fannie.

For chrissakes the desperation sweat wreaks on you guys!

its already on here asshat. but working at McDonalds, boards are to complicated for you.

[red states rule]

And they should pay more and the middle class much less, I say raise the shit out of the rich's taxes and corporations too.

and you claim to be a conservative? Seems you have officially joined the libs

BTW genius, corporations do not pay taxes. Their customers (i.e. us) do

[OCA]

He is # 3 on the list

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac Invest in Democrats
Published by Lindsay Renick Mayer on July 16, 2008 5:27 PM | Permalink | Comments (16)
(For an updated chart that includes contributions from Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae's PACs and employees to ALL lawmakers back to 1989, including to their leadership PACs, go here.) and data The federal government recently announced that it will come to the rescue of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, two embattled mortgage buyers that for years have pursued a lobbying strategy to get lawmakers on their side. Both companies have poured money into lobbying and campaign contributions to federal candidates, parties and committees as a general tactic, but they've also directed those contributions strategically. In the 2006 election cycle, Fannie Mae was giving 53 percent of its total $1.3 million in contributions to Republicans, who controlled Congress at that time. This cycle, with Democrats in control, they've reversed course, giving the party 56 percent of their total $1.1 million in contributions. Similarly, Freddie Mac has given 53 percent of its $555,700 in contributions to Democrats this cycle, compared to the 44 percent it gave during 2006.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have also strategically given more contributions to lawmakers currently sitting on committees that primarily regulate their industry. Fifteen of the 25 lawmakers who have received the most from the two companies combined since the 1990 election sit on either the House Financial Services Committee; the Senate Banking, Housing & Urban Affairs Committee; or the Senate Finance Committee. The others have seats on the powerful Appropriations or Ways & Means committees, are members of the congressional leadership or have run for president. Sen. Chris Dodd (D-Conn.), chairman of the Senate banking committee, has received the most from Fannie and Freddie's PACs and employees ($133,900 since 1989). Rep. Paul Kanjorski (D-Pa.) has received $65,500. Kanjorski chairs the House Financial Services Subcommittee on Capital Markets, Insurance and Government-Sponsored Enterprises, and Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae are government-sponsored enterprises, or GSEs.

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2008/07/top-senate-recipients-of-fanni.html

So he should be crucified for taking contributions where he can find them? All politicians do it on both sides of the aisle, I say more power to him.

In your eyes its only evil when Demos take them.....you are a fucking hypocrite.

[OCA]

its already on here asshat. but working at McDonalds, boards are to complicated for you.

Thats TOO:laugh2:

BTW small business owner here...............GOTCHA!

[red states rule]

So he should be crucified for taking contributions where he can find them? All politicians do it on both sides of the aisle, I say more power to him.

In your eyes its only evil when Demos take them.....you are a fucking hypocrite.

Not at all crybaby, you bellowed how he did not take much. In the short time he was in the Senate he was able to pass Chris Dodd in contributions

You do have the DNC talking points down pat

[OCA]

and you claim to be a conservative? Seems you have officially joined the libs

BTW genius, corporations do not pay taxes. Their customers (i.e. us) do

So you think the rich shouuld pay less and the middle class more? Don't try to run now, thats what you and Johnny Lib are proposing.

You are out of your fucking mind if you think corps. don't pay taxes, i'm incorporated and I can for fucking sure tell you that I pay plenty of taxes.

[OCA]

Not at all crybaby, you bellowed how he did not take much. In the short time he was in the Senate he was able to pass Chris Dodd in contributions

You do have the DNC talking points down pat


That ain't much..................I think he should try and get some more to battle the Republican spin machine.

[red states rule]

Thats TOO:laugh2:

BTW small business owner here...............GOTCHA!

Yep, a distributer of fertilizer

[Yurt]

And they should pay more and the middle class much less, I say raise the shit out of the rich's taxes and corporations too.

pages....flipping.....

where is than in the definition of conservative politics? you laugh when people call you a lib....but dude, when is that last time you stood for a conservative cause? what is your stance, if it can be defined?

[red states rule]

So you think the rich shouuld pay less and the middle class more? Don't try to run now, thats what you and Johnny Lib are proposing.

You are out of your fucking mind if you think corps. don't pay taxes, i'm incorporated and I can for fucking sure tell you that I pay plenty of taxes.

Companies pass the taxes on to their customers in their prices, or they cut back on labor, they do not expand as they would like, or they do not hire (or they fire) people

Under Obama, your small business will get much smaller. Then you can blame Reagan and Bush like other libs do

The bottom 50% (most of the middle class) not pay about 3% of all Federal income taxes

[red states rule]

pages....flipping.....

where is than in the definition of conservative politics? you laugh when people call you a lib....but dude, when is that last time you stood for a conservative cause? what is your stance, if it can be defined?

He sounds very much like a small child have in hissy fit

[OCA]

pages....flipping.....

where is than in the definition of conservative politics? you laugh when people call you a lib....but dude, when is that last time you stood for a conservative cause? what is your stance, if it can be defined?

I'm watching the meltdown of the the economic system in this country and independent economists all have said after much research that the root cuse of this meltdown is deregulation and lax rules upon Wall St. and corporate America...........IOW the rich.

The trickle down shit ain't working, time to consider whether the free market and dergulation which i've been a proponent of all my life is the wrong way to go.

[OCA]

He sounds very much like a small child have in hissy fit


Nope, just being a realist...............but hey if it helps you to say that so you don't have to deal with the fact that Repubs are getting their asses handed to them big time in '08 then by all means have at it lol.

[Yurt]

I'm watching the meltdown of the the economic system in this country and independent economists all have said after much research that the root cuse of this meltdown is deregulation and lax rules upon Wall St. and corporate America...........IOW the rich.

The trickle down shit ain't working, time to consider whether the free market and dergulation which i've been a proponent of all my life is the wrong way to go.

wait....here i thought this 700 billion was to buy out mtgs....you know....those mtgs that the government mandated to the........poor...and it is not only the poor, but those who played the real estate market like a slot machine...

[Kathianne]

I'm watching the meltdown of the the economic system in this country and independent economists all have said after much research that the root cuse of this meltdown is deregulation and lax rules upon Wall St. and corporate America...........IOW the rich.

The trickle down shit ain't working, time to consider whether the free market and dergulation which i've been a proponent of all my life is the wrong way to go.

So now you agree, you have left 'conservatism' or whatever your version of that was.

[OCA]

Companies pass the taxes on to their customers in their prices, or they cut back on labor, they do not expand as they would like, or they do not hire (or they fire) people

Under Obama, your small business will get much smaller. Then you can blame Reagan and Bush like other libs do

The bottom 50% (most of the middle class) not pay about 3% of all Federal income taxes

Sounds all good and well but in practice it never happens.

[red states rule]

Sounds all good and well but in practice it never happens.

If you do understand basic enonomics, no wonder your business is still small

and will get smaller if your guy Obama wins

[OCA]

wait....here i thought this 700 billion was to buy out mtgs....you know....those mtgs that the government mandated to the........poor...and it is not only the poor, but those who played the real estate market like a slot machine...

Really, you got a link to where they were mandated? I see it as the mortgage and real estate industries got real greedy and took the low interest rates and coupled that with lax credit restrictions to give a loan to anyone with a heartbeat just to make a buck..................the consequences of that be damned.

[OCA]

If you do understand basic enonomics, no wonder your business is still small

and will get smaller if your guy Obama wins

Your theory is all good and well but in regards to large corporations the trickle down never trickles down, it goes up to huge salaries and bonuses for the CEO..............you know it and I know it.

[OCA]

So now you agree, you have left 'conservatism' or whatever your version of that was.

So you'd rather stick to your economic ideology, an ideology that is failing right before our very eyes, then to take a step back and say "maybe I was wrong"?

Thats vain.

[red states rule]

Really, you got a link to where they were mandated? I see it as the mortgage and real estate industries got real greedy and took the low interest rates and coupled that with lax credit restrictions to give a loan to anyone with a heartbeat just to make a buck..................the consequences of that be damned.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DB153EF933A0575AC0A96F9582 60

[Kathianne]

Really, you got a link to where they were mandated? I see it as the mortgage and real estate industries got real greedy and took the low interest rates and coupled that with lax credit restrictions to give a loan to anyone with a heartbeat just to make a buck..................the consequences of that be damned.

Read what ACORN activists, trained by Obama in Alinsky tactics did with the Chicago banks.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/10/obama_mccain_carry_negative_me.html?hpid=topnews

[red states rule]

Your theory is all good and well but in regards to large corporations the trickle down never trickles down, it goes up to huge salaries and bonuses for the CEO..............you know it and I know it.

Spoken like MFM's clone

BTW, the Bush tax cuts increased revenue to the government. Much like JFK's and Reagan's tax cuts

[red states rule]

Read what ACORN activists, trained by Obama in Alinsky tactics did with the Chicago banks.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/10/obama_mccain_carry_negative_me.html?hpid=topnews

and Obama was one of the lawyers who sued Citibank to make risky loans to the poor

http://iusbvision.wordpress.com/2008/09/30/obama-sued-citibank-under-cra-to-force-it-to-make-bad-loans/

[namvet]

and Obama was one of the lawyers who sued Citibank to make risky loans to the poor

http://iusbvision.wordpress.com/2008/09/30/obama-sued-citibank-under-cra-to-force-it-to-make-bad-loans/

they gave loans to buyers that didn't even have a job !!!!!

[red states rule]

they gave loans to buyers that didn't even have a job !!!!!

Amazing how Obama is neck deep in this mess, and yet he gets a pass from his supporters and the liberal media

[namvet]

Amazing how Obama is neck deep in this mess, and yet he gets a pass from his supporters and the liberal media

and that's who will elect him. the media. just like Klinton. but he's living in a house of cards already..............

[Yurt]

OCA, check out the 1995 amendments to the CRA....if you want more proof, let me know

[red states rule]

and that's who will elect him. the media. just like Klinton. but he's living in a house of cards already..............

and what does OCA and his fellow libs want in this election?

http://i28.tinypic.com/2gv7fj6.jpg

[Kathianne]

OCA, assuming you are reading, check out this post:

http://debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=306014#post306014

[Yurt]

OCA, assuming you are reading, check out this post:

http://debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=306014#post306014

that is a great post

[Kathianne]

As long as you're going to be reading the links you requested, check out this one regarding the meltdown:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/05/AR2008100501253.html




Blaming Deregulation
__

By Sebastian Mallaby
Monday, October 6, 2008; A15

...The key financiers in this game were not the mortgage lenders, the ratings agencies or the investment banks that created those now infamous mortgage securities. In different ways, these players were all peddling financial snake oil, but as Columbia University's Charles Calomiris observes, there will always be snake-oil salesmen. Rather, the key financiers were the ones who bought the toxic mortgage products. If they hadn't been willing to buy snake oil, nobody would have been peddling it.

Who were the purchasers? They were by no means unregulated. U.S. investment banks, regulated by the Securities and Exchange Commission, bought piles of toxic waste. U.S. commercial banks, regulated by several agencies, including the Fed, also devoured large quantities. European banks, which faced a different and supposedly more up-to-date supervisory scheme, turn out to have been just as rash. By contrast, lightly regulated hedge funds resisted buying toxic waste for the most part -- though they are now vulnerable to the broader credit crunch because they operate with borrowed money.

If that doesn't convince you that deregulation is the wrong scapegoat, consider this: The appetite for toxic mortgages was fueled by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the super-regulated housing finance companies. Calomiris calculates that Fannie and Freddie bought more than a third of the $3 trillion in junk mortgages created during the bubble and that they did so because heavy government oversight obliged them to push money toward marginal home purchasers. There's a vigorous argument about whether Calomiris's number is too high. But everyone concedes that Fannie and Freddie poured fuel on the fire to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars.

So blaming deregulation for the financial mess is misguided. But it is dangerous, too, because one of the big challenges for the next president will be to defend markets against the inevitable backlash that follows this crisis. Even before finance went haywire, the Doha trade negotiations had collapsed; wage stagnation for middle-class Americans had raised legitimate questions about whom the market system served; and the food-price spike had driven many emerging economies to give up on global agricultural markets as a source of food security. Coming on top of all these challenges, the financial turmoil is bound to intensify skepticism about markets. Framing the mess as the product of deregulation will make the backlash nastier.

The next president will have to make some subtle choices. In certain areas, markets need to be reformed -- by pushing murky "over-the-counter" trades between banks onto transparent exchanges, for example. In other areas, government needs to fix itself -- by not subsidizing reckless mortgage lending. But a president who has a mandate only to reregulate will be a boxer with a missing glove. By going along with the market skepticism of his party, Obama may end up winning an election while compromising his presidency.

smallaby@cfr.org

[red states rule]

OCA if you really want info on what caused the current economic problem, watch this video. It is 10 minutes long, but worth the time

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/1RZVw3no2A4&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/1RZVw3no2A4&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[namvet]

OCA if you really want info on what caused the current economic problem, watch this video. It is 10 minutes long, but worth the time

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/1RZVw3no2A4&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/1RZVw3no2A4&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Red don't waste your time. "its" not here to debate. "it" is a hit an run liberal. 3 toes and 1 eye.

[red states rule]

Red don't waste your time. "its" not here to debate. "it" is a hit an run liberal. 3 toes and 1 eye.

We will see. Kathy and I gave him the links, it is up to him to read and watch them

[actsnoblemartin]

rsr, that is the same guy who openly lies about what aspergers is, he doesnt have an honest bone in his body

[namvet]

he'll be here later. right now he's snozin' under his rock:laugh2:

[OCA]

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DB153EF933A0575AC0A96F9582 60

Uhhh anything recent? I mean about two or so years ago when you're brethren in the mortgage company were busy ruining the American economy?

BTW that link said zip about mandates..............try again amateur.

[OCA]

Spoken like MFM's clone

BTW, the Bush tax cuts increased revenue to the government. Much like JFK's and Reagan's tax cuts

I'm not interested in increasing revenue to the "government", i'm interested in what is fair. IMO increasing revenue to the government is a waste, dollars down the drain.

BTW Bush's tax cuts did increase revenues but they were highly irresponsible in a time of war. The gain in revenue was squandered by the cost of the ill waged war.

[OCA]

Loved all the links, not that they were factual or anything. SAeems the rest of America has its mind made up already on who is to blame and who is best to fix it.

[Yurt]

Loved all the links, not that they were factual or anything. SAeems the rest of America has its mind made up already on who is to blame and who is best to fix it.

wow, how to debate that great point....not that they were factual or anything....cuz i say so, thats right...

:lame2:

[Yurt]

LA just posted some more factual information in another thread...maybe the great OCA can explain to us what is not factual about any of this or this thread, which i will reproduce for OCA's convenience:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=306396&posted=1#post306396

TIMELINE:

In 1977, Congress passed a law, signed by Pres. Jimmy Carter, requiring banks etc. to lend more money to people who were less likely to pay it back. Under the liberal Carter administration, the idea that housing was a "right", was becoming more important than mundane details such as whether the buyer could pay for it. The title, "Community Reinvestment Act", concealed the riskiness of the lending it required.

In 1986, a bill was introduced in Congress to reform this. Republicans voted for it, Democrats against, it failed.

In 1988, after Democrats took control of both the House and Senate, more laws were passed, making it easier for people to sue landlords and lenders if they felt they had been discriminated against in housing. Many lenders started making even more loans to low-income and other credit risks, based on their race or ancestry, to avoid expensive lawsuits.

In 1993, Congress mandated that government-sponsored companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac increase their purchases of mortgages for low-income and medium-income borrowers.

In 1995, Bill Clinton ordered the Treasury Dept to rewrite its rules for making CRA loans, increasing quotas of blacks and other minorities getting loans. Since many of those groups who had previously failed to qualify, were still high-risk borrowers, F&F began buying more and more such high-risk mortgages from banks. Other rules changes between 1997 and 2001 by HUD Secretary Andrew Cuomo allowed F&F to hold a huge number of such mortgages in their portfolios, with a minimum amount of cash on hand to back them up, greatly increasing the risk if mortgages started defaulting .

Freddie and Fannie began buying up huge numbers of these risky loans, essentially guaranteeing to lenders that they could make all the risky loans they wanted, and be able to unload them to those two companies. So banks began pouring billions of dollars of loans into poor communities, often "no documentation" and "no income" loans that required no money down and no verification of income. Fannie Mae chief Franklin Raines received huge salary bonuses after employees faked some profit numbers to make it look like Fannie Mae had achieved various target goals. Raines later became a financial adviser to the Barack Obama campaign.

In 2001, George W. Bush's first proposed budget stated that Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae were becoming so large, and cornering so much of the mortgage market, that any problem with these companies could have huge impacts on the entire U.S. economy; and that their lending practices were pushing them toward just such problems.

In 2003, House Finance Committee chairman Barney Frank (D-MA) insisted that Freddie and Fannie were "not facing any kind of financial crisis", and that people were exaggerating the problems seen by the govt-sponsored companies. One month later, Fannie Mae disclosed a $1.2 billion accounting error. Still, Democrat Senator Thomas Carper (D-DE) refused to acknowledge any necessity for reform.

In 2005, The Bush budget again expressed grave concerns over the explosive growth of Freddie and Fannie, stating flatly that they could no longer meet their financial responsibilities. Barney Frank (D-MA) ignored the warnings, and accused the Bush administration of creating an "artificial issue". Senate Republicans introduced a strong reform bill designed to reduce the loans to high-risk borrowers. All Republicans voted for it, but Democrats filibustered and voted against bringing the bill to the Senate floor. Republicans were unable to get the 60% needed to get the bill voted on and passed, so it died in the Senate. Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) announced "We cannot pass legislation that could limit Americans from owning homes." It was the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005, co-sponsored by John McCain.

By 2007, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac owned or guaranteed nearly half of the entire U.S. mortgage market. President Bush called emphatically for legislation to reform Freddie and Fannie, insisting that "Congress needs to get them reformed, and then I will consider other options." Senate Banking Committee chairman Christopher Dodd (D-CT) ignored the warnings and called on Bush to "immediately reconsider his ill-advised" position.

As late as September 2007, legislators including Barack Obama maintained that these high-risk loans were sound financial policy.

Finally, in July 2008, Congress heeded Republicans' call for reform, and passed reform legislation for Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. But the companies were already crashing. Democrats forgot their previous almost-solid opposition to reforms, and Senator Dodd questioned, "Why weren't we doing more, why did we wait almost a year before there were any significant steps taken to try to deal with this problem? I have a lot of questions about where was the administration over the last eight years."

[Kathianne]

Loved all the links, not that they were factual or anything. SAeems the rest of America has its mind made up already on who is to blame and who is best to fix it.

Running away, why am I not surprised. You haven't an argument, so denigrate without reading. Serious liberal syndrome.

[gabosaurus]

How about debating McCain's support of everything that Bush did to screw up the economy. You are suffering for it now.

[Kathianne]

How about debating McCain's support of everything that Bush did to screw up the economy. You are suffering for it now.

What did Bush do to 'screw up the economy' other than the war?

The war had zip to do with the hits of the past 3 weeks, that is a function of the runaway financials, the basis of which are to the Democrats.

[gabosaurus]

The "basis" of what? Bush has ignored the economic peril for the last eight years as he concentrated on his phony "wart on terror" bullshit. The Bush administration has been rife with tax cuts for corporations and extensive bailouts.

[Kathianne]

The "basis" of what? Bush has ignored the economic peril for the last eight years as he concentrated on his phony "wart on terror" bullshit. The Bush administration has been rife with tax cuts for corporations and extensive bailouts.

Bullshit. It's been covered even in the MSM, Bush tried as early as 2004, to get regulations on Fannie, then Freddie. Hopeless battle you are waging here.

[manu1959]

The "basis" of what? Bush has ignored the economic peril for the last eight years as he concentrated on his phony "wart on terror" bullshit. The Bush administration has been rife with tax cuts for corporations and extensive bailouts.

you got a tax cut under bush....did you send it back.....who wrote and passed the auto bailout.....

[namvet]

reference to the IDIOT post 143 :fu:



Unfortunately, Congress did not act on the president's warnings:

** 2001

April: The Administration's FY02 budget declares that the size of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is ‘a potential problem,’ because ‘financial trouble of a large GSE could cause strong repercussions in financial markets, affecting Federally insured entities and economic activity.’

** 2002

May: The President calls for the disclosure and corporate governance principles contained in his 10-point plan for corporate responsibility to apply to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. (OMB Prompt Letter to OFHEO, 5/29/02)

** 2003

January: Freddie Mac announces it has to restate financial results for the previous three years.

February: The Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight (OFHEO) releases a report explaining that ‘although investors perceive an implicit Federal guarantee of [GSE] obligations,’ ‘the government has provided no explicit legal backing for them.’ As a consequence, unexpected problems at a GSE could immediately spread into financial sectors beyond the housing market. (‘Systemic Risk: Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and the Role of OFHEO,’ OFHEO Report, 2/4/03)

September: Fannie Mae discloses SEC investigation and acknowledges OFHEO's review found earnings manipulations.

September: Treasury Secretary John Snow testifies before the House Financial Services Committee to recommend that Congress enact ‘legislation to create a new Federal agency to regulate and supervise the financial activities of our housing-related government sponsored enterprises’ and set prudent and appropriate minimum capital adequacy requirements.

October: Fannie Mae discloses $1.2 billion accounting error.

November: Council of the Economic Advisers (CEA) Chairman Greg Mankiw explains that any ‘legislation to reform GSE regulation should empower the new regulator with sufficient strength and credibility to reduce systemic risk.’ To reduce the potential for systemic instability, the regulator would have ‘broad authority to set both risk-based and minimum capital standards’ and ‘receivership powers necessary to wind down the affairs of a troubled GSE.’ (N. Gregory Mankiw, Remarks At The Conference Of State Bank Supervisors State Banking Summit And Leadership, 11/6/03)

** 2004

February: The President's FY05 Budget again highlights the risk posed by the explosive growth of the GSEs and their low levels of required capital, and called for creation of a new, world-class regulator: ‘The Administration has determined that the safety and soundness regulators of the housing GSEs lack sufficient power and stature to meet their responsibilities, and therefore…should be replaced with a new strengthened regulator.’ (2005 Budget Analytic Perspectives, pg. 83)

February: CEA Chairman Mankiw cautions Congress to ‘not take [the financial market's] strength for granted.’ Again, the call from the Administration was to reduce this risk by ‘ensuring that the housing GSEs are overseen by an effective regulator.’ (N. Gregory Mankiw, Op-Ed, ‘Keeping Fannie And Freddie's House In Order,’ Financial Times, 2/24/04)

June: Deputy Secretary of Treasury Samuel Bodman spotlights the risk posed by the GSEs and called for reform, saying ‘We do not have a world-class system of supervision of the housing government sponsored enterprises (GSEs), even though the importance of the housing financial system that the GSEs serve demands the best in supervision to ensure the long-term vitality of that system. Therefore, the Administration has called for a new, first class, regulatory supervisor for the three housing GSEs: Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and the Federal Home Loan Banking System.’ (Samuel Bodman, House Financial Services Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations Testimony, 6/16/04)

** 2005

April: Treasury Secretary John Snow repeats his call for GSE reform, saying "Events that have transpired since I testified before this Committee in 2003 reinforce concerns over the systemic risks posed by the GSEs and further highlight the need for real GSE reform to ensure that our housing finance system remains a strong and vibrant source of funding for expanding homeownership opportunities in America… Half-measures will only exacerbate the risks to our financial system." (Secretary John W. Snow, "Testimony Before The U.S. House Financial Services Committee," 4/13/05)

** 2007

July: Two Bear Stearns hedge funds invested in mortgage securities collapse.

August: President Bush emphatically calls on Congress to pass a reform package for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, saying ‘first things first when it comes to those two institutions. Congress needs to get them reformed, get them streamlined, get them focused, and then I will consider other options.’ (President George W. Bush, Press Conference, The White House, 8/9/07)

September: RealtyTrac announces foreclosure filings up 243,000 in August – up 115 percent from the year before.

September: Single-family existing home sales decreases 7.5 percent from the previous month – the lowest level in nine years. Median sale price of existing homes fell six percent from the year before.

December: President Bush again warns Congress of the need to pass legislation reforming GSEs, saying ‘These institutions provide liquidity in the mortgage market that benefits millions of homeowners, and it is vital they operate safely and operate soundly. So I've called on Congress to pass legislation that strengthens independent regulation of the GSEs – and ensures they focus on their important housing mission. The GSE reform bill passed by the House earlier this year is a good start. But the Senate has not acted. And the United States Senate needs to pass this legislation soon.’ (President George W. Bush, Discusses Housing, The White House, 12/6/07)

** 2008

January: Bank of America announces it will buy Countrywide.

January: Citigroup announces mortgage portfolio lost $18.1 billion in value.

February: Assistant Secretary David Nason reiterates the urgency of reforms, says ‘A new regulatory structure for the housing GSEs is essential if these entities are to continue to perform their public mission successfully.’ (David Nason, Testimony On Reforming GSE Regulation, Senate Committee On Banking, Housing And Urban Affairs, 2/7/08)

March: Bear Stearns announces it will sell itself to JPMorgan Chase.

March: President Bush calls on Congress to take action and ‘move forward with reforms on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. They need to continue to modernize the FHA, as well as allow State housing agencies to issue tax-free bonds to homeowners to refinance their mortgages.’ (President George W. Bush, Remarks To The Economic Club Of New York, New York, NY, 3/14/08)

April: President Bush urges Congress to pass the much needed legislation and ‘modernize Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. [There are] constructive things Congress can do that will encourage the housing market to correct quickly by … helping people stay in their homes.’ (President George W. Bush, Meeting With Cabinet, the White House, 4/14/08)

May: President Bush issues several pleas to Congress to pass legislation reforming Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac before the situation deteriorates further.

‘Americans are concerned about making their mortgage payments and keeping their homes. Yet Congress has failed to pass legislation I have repeatedly requested to modernize the Federal Housing Administration that will help more families stay in their homes, reform Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to ensure they focus on their housing mission, and allow State housing agencies to issue tax-free bonds to refinance sub-prime loans.’ (President George W. Bush, Radio Address, 5/3/08)

‘[T]he government ought to be helping creditworthy people stay in their homes. And one way we can do that – and Congress is making progress on this – is the reform of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. That reform will come with a strong, independent regulator.’ (President George W. Bush, Meeting With The Secretary Of The Treasury, the White House, 5/19/08)

‘Congress needs to pass legislation to modernize the Federal Housing Administration, reform Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to ensure they focus on their housing mission, and allow State housing agencies to issue tax-free bonds to refinance subprime loans.’ (President George W. Bush, Radio Address, 5/31/08)

June: As foreclosure rates continued to rise in the first quarter, the President once again asks Congress to take the necessary measures to address this challenge, saying ‘we need to pass legislation to reform Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.’ (President George W. Bush, Remarks At Swearing In Ceremony For Secretary Of Housing And Urban Development, Washington, D.C., 6/6/08)

July: Congress heeds the President's call for action and passes reform of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac as it becomes clear that the institutions are failing.
In 2005-- Senator John McCain partnered with three other Senate Republicans to reform the government’s involvement in lending.
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/17/mccains-attempt-to-fix-fannie-mae-freddie-mac-in-2005/

Democrats blocked this reform, too.

More... Not only did democrats not act on these warnings but Barack Obama put one of the major Sub-Prime Slime players on his campaign as finance chairperson.

[Yurt]

How about debating McCain's support of everything that Bush did to screw up the economy. You are suffering for it now.

:link::link::link:

[namvet]

:link::link::link:

she's the missing link !!!!!

[OCA]

Running away, why am I not surprised. You haven't an argument, so denigrate without reading. Serious liberal syndrome.

When you hacks start acknowledging that I have legitimate points with McCain and the current incarnation of the Republican party I will discuss your ideas that the Demo party has always been wrong and the Repub party was always right.

I did not see anything substantive in any link provided to me just like you guys do not see anything substantive in links I provide, two can play that game.

[OCA]

What did Bush do to 'screw up the economy' other than the war?

The war had zip to do with the hits of the past 3 weeks, that is a function of the runaway financials, the basis of which are to the Democrats.

No, the basis is runaway deregulation, mostly done by Republicans.

[OCA]

reference to the IDIOT post 143 :fu:




And who ran Congress for 5 of those years you dumbfuck?

[Yurt]

When you hacks start acknowledging that I have legitimate points with McCain and the current incarnation of the Republican party I will discuss your ideas that the Demo party has always been wrong and the Repub party was always right.

I did not see anything substantive in any link provided to me just like you guys do not see anything substantive in links I provide, two can play that game.

bullshit...link me to your links...i did not see them....and calling us HACKS, fuck you tough guy...you won't acknowledge us until we kiss your ring....LOOOOL

and still a copout dude....well you won't, sniffle, look at my links, so sniffle, i won't look at yours......which btw i REPRODUCED my link entirely with bold and underlined fonts for your convenience.

so all you had to do was briefly glance at what i had reproduced for you in easy to catch font and respond.

[namvet]

When you hacks start acknowledging that I have legitimate points with McCain and the current incarnation of the Republican party I will discuss your ideas that the Demo party has always been wrong and the Repub party was always right.

I did not see anything substantive in any link provided to me just like you guys do not see anything substantive in links I provide, two can play that game.

run away. your bio



When you hacks start acknowledging that I have legitimate points with McCain and the current incarnation of the Republican party I will discuss your ideas that the Demo party has always been wrong and the Repub party was always right.


why sure. soon as hell freeze's over. perfer to be a hack than a numb nuts like you:finger3:

[Kathianne]

No, the basis is runaway deregulation, mostly done by Republicans.

Wrong, the basis of deregulation regarding banking rests solely on the Democrats. Read up, try those 'lame' links.

[OCA]

bullshit...link me to your links...i did not see them....and calling us HACKS, fuck you tough guy...you won't acknowledge us until we kiss your ring....LOOOOL

and still a copout dude....well you won't, sniffle, look at my links, so sniffle, i won't look at yours......which btw i REPRODUCED my link entirely with bold and underlined fonts for your convenience.

so all you had to do was briefly glance at what i had reproduced for you in easy to catch font and respond.


Hack.

Go back and look at my links.

Produce something for me which seperates Obama from every other politician that has served in Washington, leave the conspiracy theories out.

[OCA]

Wrong, the basis of deregulation regarding banking rests solely on the Democrats. Read up, try those 'lame' links.














House Republicans defend deregulation
By Jim Snyder

House Republicans defended "deregulation" in advance of House Oversight and Government Reform hearings designed to assign blame for the financial market crisis that prompted Congress to pass a $700 billion rescue plan last week.

"In the midst of the most serious financial crisis in a generation, some claim that deregulation is entirely to blame," states the report, which was written by Republican staff on the oversight committee.



"This is simply not true and more importantly serves to grossly oversimplify a problem whose roots run deep and involve myriad actors and issues."

The report instead points a finger at a few large institutions, in particular Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. These mortgage giants, with portfolios that skyrocketed in value between 1990 and 2005, were a "central cancer of the mortgage market, which has now metastasized into the current financial crisis," the report states.

Had Fannie and Freddie been restructured after the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight reported on their fraudulent accounting activities, "we would likely not be in the crisis we have today," the report states.


The committee hearings this week will examine the reasons why Lehman Brothers, the investment bank, went bankrupt, and why the American International Group, the large insurer, had to be rescued with an $85 billion federal bailout. Each invested in complicated mortgage-backed financial instruments that had the affect of broadening the risk of subprime loans far beyond their original lenders.

The report does put some of the blame on the federal regulatory structure, but says the fractured regulatory structure was too blame, not a lack of regulation. "The problem is a lack of coherent regulation," the report states.

"The words regulation and deregulation are not absolute goods and evils, nor are they meaningful policy prescriptions."

The report also points a finger at ratings agencies that it says inflated ratings for subprime mortgage backed securities for fear of losing market share. The report also notes that Republicans controlled Congress when it passed a law protecting ratings shopping, which contributed to the current crisis.

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/house-republicans-defend-deregulation-2008-10-05.html

[namvet]

Hitler has entered the room.

[Yurt]

Hack.

Go back and look at my links.

Produce something for me which seperates Obama from every other politician that has served in Washington, leave the conspiracy theories out.

IOW, you do not dispute what i reproduced for you....

[OCA]

IOW, you do not dispute what i reproduced for you....

Just what in the hell are you talking about now?

[Kathianne]

House Republicans defend deregulation
By Jim Snyder

House Republicans defended "deregulation" in advance of House Oversight and Government Reform hearings designed to assign blame for the financial market crisis that prompted Congress to pass a $700 billion rescue plan last week.

"In the midst of the most serious financial crisis in a generation, some claim that deregulation is entirely to blame," states the report, which was written by Republican staff on the oversight committee.



"This is simply not true and more importantly serves to grossly oversimplify a problem whose roots run deep and involve myriad actors and issues."

The report instead points a finger at a few large institutions, in particular Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. These mortgage giants, with portfolios that skyrocketed in value between 1990 and 2005, were a "central cancer of the mortgage market, which has now metastasized into the current financial crisis," the report states.

Had Fannie and Freddie been restructured after the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight reported on their fraudulent accounting activities, "we would likely not be in the crisis we have today," the report states.


The committee hearings this week will examine the reasons why Lehman Brothers, the investment bank, went bankrupt, and why the American International Group, the large insurer, had to be rescued with an $85 billion federal bailout. Each invested in complicated mortgage-backed financial instruments that had the affect of broadening the risk of subprime loans far beyond their original lenders.

The report does put some of the blame on the federal regulatory structure, but says the fractured regulatory structure was too blame, not a lack of regulation. "The problem is a lack of coherent regulation," the report states.

"The words regulation and deregulation are not absolute goods and evils, nor are they meaningful policy prescriptions."

The report also points a finger at ratings agencies that it says inflated ratings for subprime mortgage backed securities for fear of losing market share. The report also notes that Republicans controlled Congress when it passed a law protecting ratings shopping, which contributed to the current crisis.

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/house-republicans-defend-deregulation-2008-10-05.html
Something I never thought, you being a tool for the Dems:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aSKSoiNbnQY0


...Back in 2005, Fannie and Freddie were, after years of dominating Washington, on the ropes. They were enmeshed in accounting scandals that led to turnover at the top. At one telling moment in late 2004, captured in an article by my American Enterprise Institute colleague Peter Wallison, the Securities and Exchange Comiission's chief accountant told disgraced Fannie Mae chief Franklin Raines that Fannie's position on the relevant accounting issue was not even ``on the page'' of allowable interpretations.

Then legislative momentum emerged for an attempt to create a ``world-class regulator'' that would oversee the pair more like banks, imposing strict requirements on their ability to take excessive risks. Politicians who previously had associated themselves proudly with the two accounting miscreants were less eager to be associated with them. The time was ripe.

Greenspan's Warning

The clear gravity of the situation pushed the legislation forward. Some might say the current mess couldn't be foreseen, yet in 2005 Alan Greenspan told Congress how urgent it was for it to act in the clearest possible terms: If Fannie and Freddie ``continue to grow, continue to have the low capital that they have, continue to engage in the dynamic hedging of their portfolios, which they need to do for interest rate risk aversion, they potentially create ever-growing potential systemic risk down the road,'' he said. ``We are placing the total financial system of the future at a substantial risk.''

What happened next was extraordinary. For the first time in history, a serious Fannie and Freddie reform bill was passed by the Senate Banking Committee. The bill gave a regulator power to crack down, and would have required the companies to eliminate their investments in risky assets.

Different World

If that bill had become law, then the world today would be different. In 2005, 2006 and 2007, a blizzard of terrible mortgage paper fluttered out of the Fannie and Freddie clouds, burying many of our oldest and most venerable institutions. Without their checkbooks keeping the market liquid and buying up excess supply, the market would likely have not existed.

But the bill didn't become law, for a simple reason: Democrats opposed it on a party-line vote in the committee, signaling that this would be a partisan issue. Republicans, tied in knots by the tight Democratic opposition, couldn't even get the Senate to vote on the matter.

That such a reckless political stand could have been taken by the Democrats was obscene even then. Wallison wrote at the time: ``It is a classic case of socializing the risk while privatizing the profit. The Democrats and the few Republicans who oppose portfolio limitations could not possibly do so if their constituents understood what they were doing.''

Mounds of Materials

Now that the collapse has occurred, the roadblock built by Senate Democrats in 2005 is unforgivable. Many who opposed the bill doubtlessly did so for honorable reasons. Fannie and Freddie provided mounds of materials defending their practices. Perhaps some found their propaganda convincing.

But we now know that many of the senators who protected Fannie and Freddie, including Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and Christopher Dodd, have received mind-boggling levels of financial support from them over the years.

Throughout his political career, Obama has gotten more than $125,000 in campaign contributions from employees and political action committees of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, second only to Dodd, the Senate Banking Committee chairman, who received more than $165,000.

Clinton, the 12th-ranked recipient of Fannie and Freddie PAC and employee contributions, has received more than $75,000 from the two enterprises and their employees. The private profit found its way back to the senators who killed the fix.

There has been a lot of talk about who is to blame for this crisis. A look back at the story of 2005 makes the answer pretty clear.

Oh, and there is one little footnote to the story that's worth keeping in mind while Democrats point fingers between now and Nov. 4: Senator John McCain was one of the three cosponsors of S.190, the bill that would have averted this mess.

(Kevin Hassett, director of economic-policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute, is a Bloomberg News columnist. He is an adviser to Republican Senator John McCain of Arizona in the 2008 presidential election. The opinions expressed are his own.)

To contact the writer of this column: Kevin Hassett at khassett@aei.org
Last Updated: September 22, 2008 00:04 EDTHe supports McCain, for good reasons.

[Yurt]

Just what in the hell are you talking about now?

are you joking? i reproduced LA's thread/post for your convenience as i knew you would wimp out over a link....i even bolded and underlined the body of the subject matter so that you could not say....i can't wade through all that....

while the link is to LA's thread, he is not the first to post the truths contained therein. i merely used his post/thread as a link because i thought it a waste of time to go get another link off the web when LA has one right on this board.

so, what in the hell are you talking about?

[OCA]

Something I never thought, you being a tool for the Dems:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aSKSoiNbnQY0

He supports McCain, for good reasons.

You are kidding right? I refer you back to my link.

What you probably need to check is the riders attatched to the bill, Repubs are famous for them. I'm assuming that Demos didn't disagree with the meat of the bill but to some riders attatched to it by some RINOS.

[OCA]

By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK and CHARLES DUHIGG
Published: September 21, 2008
Senator John McCain’s campaign manager was paid more than $30,000 a month for five years as president of an advocacy group set up by the mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to defend them against stricter regulations, current and former officials say.


A 2004 photograph from a report by the Homeownership Alliance, an advocacy group for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, shows John McCain with Ken Guenther, a former chairman of the group, left, and David Lereah of the National Association of Realtors.
Mr. McCain, the Republican candidate for president, has recently begun campaigning as a critic of the two companies and the lobbying army that helped them evade greater regulation as they began buying riskier mortgages with implicit federal backing. He and his Democratic rival, Senator Barack Obama, have donors and advisers who are tied to the companies.

But last week the McCain campaign stepped up a running battle of guilt by association when it began broadcasting commercials trying to link Mr. Obama directly to the government bailout of the mortgage giants this month by charging that he takes advice from Fannie Mae’s former chief executive, Franklin Raines, an assertion both Mr. Raines and the Obama campaign dispute.

Incensed by the advertisements, several current and former executives of the companies came forward to discuss the role that Rick Davis, Mr. McCain’s campaign manager and longtime adviser, played in helping Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac beat back regulatory challenges when he served as president of their advocacy group, the Homeownership Alliance, formed in the summer of 2000. Some who came forward were Democrats, but Republicans, speaking on the condition of anonymity, confirmed their descriptions.

“The value that he brought to the relationship was the closeness to Senator McCain and the possibility that Senator McCain was going to run for president again,” said Robert McCarson, a former spokesman for Fannie Mae, who said that while he worked there from 2000 to 2002, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac together paid Mr. Davis’s firm $35,000 a month. Mr. Davis “didn’t really do anything,” Mr. McCarson, a Democrat, said.

Mr. Davis’s role with the group has bubbled up as an issue in the campaign, but the extent of his compensation and the details of his role have not been reported previously.

Mr. McCain was never a leading critic or defender of the mortgage giants, although several former executives of the companies said Mr. Davis did draw Mr. McCain to a 2004 awards banquet that the companies’ Homeownership Alliance held in a Senate office building. The organization printed a photograph of Mr. McCain at the event in its 2004 annual report, bolstering its clout and credibility. The event honored several other elected officials, including at least two Democrats, Gov. Edward G. Rendell of Pennsylvania and Representative Artur Davis of Alabama.

In an interview Sunday night with CNBC and The New York Times, Mr. McCain noted that Mr. Davis was no longer working on behalf of the mortgage giants. He said Mr. Davis “has had nothing to do with it since, and I’ll be glad to have his record examined by anybody who wants to look at it.”

Asked about the reports of Mr. Davis’s role, a spokesman for Mr. McCain said that during the time when Mr. Davis ran the Homeownership Alliance, the senator had backed legislation to increase oversight of the mortgage companies’ accounting and executive compensation. The legislation, however, did not seek to change their anomalous structure as private companies with federal support.

The spokesman, Tucker Bounds, also noted that the Homeownership Alliance included nonprofit organizations like Habitat for Humanity and the Urban League. “It’s not controversial to promote homeownership and minority homeownership,” Mr. Bounds said. More than a half-dozen current and former executives, however, said the Homeownership Alliance was set up mainly to defend Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by promoting their role in the housing market, and the two companies paid almost the entire cost of the group’s operations.

“They were financed largely, possibly exclusively, by Fannie and Freddie,” said William R. Maloni, a Democrat who is a former head of industry relations for Fannie Mae. “We thought it would be helpful to have someone who was a broadly recognized Republican to be the face of the organization, and that person became Rick Davis.” Mr. Maloni added, “Rick, for that purpose, turned out to be quite good.” (Several executives said Mr. Davis’s compensation was not unusual for the companies’ well-connected consultants.)

The federal bailout of the two mortgage giants has become an emblem of what critics say is the outdated or inadequate regulatory system that allowed the financial system to slide into crisis this summer.

At the time that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac recruited Mr. Davis to run the Homeownership Alliance in 2000, they were under new pressure from private industry rivals and deregulation-minded Republicans who argued that the two companies’ federal sponsorship gave them an unfair advantage and put taxpayers at risk. Critics of the companies had formed their own Washington-based advocacy group, FM Watch. They were pushing for regulations that would deter the companies from expanding into new areas, including riskier and more profitable mortgages.

Mr. Davis had recently returned to his lobbying firm from running Mr. McCain’s unexpectedly strong 2000 Republican primary campaign, which elevated Mr. McCain’s profile as a legislator and Mr. Davis’s as a lobbyist.

“You can say what you want about free-market distortions, but people like the system because it gets them into houses cheap,” Mr. Davis said to Institutional Investor magazine in 2000, adding that he would run the advocacy group out of his Alexandria, Va., lobbying firm.

The organization also hired Public Strategies, a communications firm that included former Bush adviser Mark McKinnon. Mr. Davis wrote letters and gave speeches for the group. In April 2001, he sent out a press release headlined, “It’s Tax Day — Do You Know Where Your Deductions Are? For Most Americans, They’re in Your Home.”

But by the end of 2005, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were recovering from accounting problems and re-examining costs, former executives said. The companies decided the Homeownership Alliance had outlived its usefulness, and it disappeared.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/22/us/politics/22mccain.html

[Yurt]

LA just posted some more factual information in another thread...maybe the great OCA can explain to us what is not factual about any of this or this thread, which i will reproduce for OCA's convenience:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=306396&posted=1#post306396

TIMELINE:

In 1977, Congress passed a law, signed by Pres. Jimmy Carter, requiring banks etc. to lend more money to people who were less likely to pay it back. Under the liberal Carter administration, the idea that housing was a "right", was becoming more important than mundane details such as whether the buyer could pay for it. The title, "Community Reinvestment Act", concealed the riskiness of the lending it required.

In 1986, a bill was introduced in Congress to reform this. Republicans voted for it, Democrats against, it failed.

In 1988, after Democrats took control of both the House and Senate, more laws were passed, making it easier for people to sue landlords and lenders if they felt they had been discriminated against in housing. Many lenders started making even more loans to low-income and other credit risks, based on their race or ancestry, to avoid expensive lawsuits.

In 1993, Congress mandated that government-sponsored companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac increase their purchases of mortgages for low-income and medium-income borrowers.

In 1995, Bill Clinton ordered the Treasury Dept to rewrite its rules for making CRA loans, increasing quotas of blacks and other minorities getting loans. Since many of those groups who had previously failed to qualify, were still high-risk borrowers, F&F began buying more and more such high-risk mortgages from banks. Other rules changes between 1997 and 2001 by HUD Secretary Andrew Cuomo allowed F&F to hold a huge number of such mortgages in their portfolios, with a minimum amount of cash on hand to back them up, greatly increasing the risk if mortgages started defaulting .

Freddie and Fannie began buying up huge numbers of these risky loans, essentially guaranteeing to lenders that they could make all the risky loans they wanted, and be able to unload them to those two companies. So banks began pouring billions of dollars of loans into poor communities, often "no documentation" and "no income" loans that required no money down and no verification of income. Fannie Mae chief Franklin Raines received huge salary bonuses after employees faked some profit numbers to make it look like Fannie Mae had achieved various target goals. Raines later became a financial adviser to the Barack Obama campaign.

In 2001, George W. Bush's first proposed budget stated that Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae were becoming so large, and cornering so much of the mortgage market, that any problem with these companies could have huge impacts on the entire U.S. economy; and that their lending practices were pushing them toward just such problems.

In 2003, House Finance Committee chairman Barney Frank (D-MA) insisted that Freddie and Fannie were "not facing any kind of financial crisis", and that people were exaggerating the problems seen by the govt-sponsored companies. One month later, Fannie Mae disclosed a $1.2 billion accounting error. Still, Democrat Senator Thomas Carper (D-DE) refused to acknowledge any necessity for reform.

In 2005, The Bush budget again expressed grave concerns over the explosive growth of Freddie and Fannie, stating flatly that they could no longer meet their financial responsibilities. Barney Frank (D-MA) ignored the warnings, and accused the Bush administration of creating an "artificial issue". Senate Republicans introduced a strong reform bill designed to reduce the loans to high-risk borrowers. All Republicans voted for it, but Democrats filibustered and voted against bringing the bill to the Senate floor. Republicans were unable to get the 60% needed to get the bill voted on and passed, so it died in the Senate. Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) announced "We cannot pass legislation that could limit Americans from owning homes." It was the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005, co-sponsored by John McCain.

By 2007, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac owned or guaranteed nearly half of the entire U.S. mortgage market. President Bush called emphatically for legislation to reform Freddie and Fannie, insisting that "Congress needs to get them reformed, and then I will consider other options." Senate Banking Committee chairman Christopher Dodd (D-CT) ignored the warnings and called on Bush to "immediately reconsider his ill-advised" position.

As late as September 2007, legislators including Barack Obama maintained that these high-risk loans were sound financial policy.

Finally, in July 2008, Congress heeded Republicans' call for reform, and passed reform legislation for Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. But the companies were already crashing. Democrats forgot their previous almost-solid opposition to reforms, and Senator Dodd questioned, "Why weren't we doing more, why did we wait almost a year before there were any significant steps taken to try to deal with this problem? I have a lot of questions about where was the administration over the last eight years."

:bye1:

[OCA]

By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK and CHARLES DUHIGG
Published: September 21, 2008
Senator John McCain’s campaign manager was paid more than $30,000 a month for five years as president of an advocacy group set up by the mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to defend them against stricter regulations, current and former officials say.


A 2004 photograph from a report by the Homeownership Alliance, an advocacy group for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, shows John McCain with Ken Guenther, a former chairman of the group, left, and David Lereah of the National Association of Realtors.
Mr. McCain, the Republican candidate for president, has recently begun campaigning as a critic of the two companies and the lobbying army that helped them evade greater regulation as they began buying riskier mortgages with implicit federal backing. He and his Democratic rival, Senator Barack Obama, have donors and advisers who are tied to the companies.

But last week the McCain campaign stepped up a running battle of guilt by association when it began broadcasting commercials trying to link Mr. Obama directly to the government bailout of the mortgage giants this month by charging that he takes advice from Fannie Mae’s former chief executive, Franklin Raines, an assertion both Mr. Raines and the Obama campaign dispute.

Incensed by the advertisements, several current and former executives of the companies came forward to discuss the role that Rick Davis, Mr. McCain’s campaign manager and longtime adviser, played in helping Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac beat back regulatory challenges when he served as president of their advocacy group, the Homeownership Alliance, formed in the summer of 2000. Some who came forward were Democrats, but Republicans, speaking on the condition of anonymity, confirmed their descriptions.

“The value that he brought to the relationship was the closeness to Senator McCain and the possibility that Senator McCain was going to run for president again,” said Robert McCarson, a former spokesman for Fannie Mae, who said that while he worked there from 2000 to 2002, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac together paid Mr. Davis’s firm $35,000 a month. Mr. Davis “didn’t really do anything,” Mr. McCarson, a Democrat, said.

Mr. Davis’s role with the group has bubbled up as an issue in the campaign, but the extent of his compensation and the details of his role have not been reported previously.

Mr. McCain was never a leading critic or defender of the mortgage giants, although several former executives of the companies said Mr. Davis did draw Mr. McCain to a 2004 awards banquet that the companies’ Homeownership Alliance held in a Senate office building. The organization printed a photograph of Mr. McCain at the event in its 2004 annual report, bolstering its clout and credibility. The event honored several other elected officials, including at least two Democrats, Gov. Edward G. Rendell of Pennsylvania and Representative Artur Davis of Alabama.

In an interview Sunday night with CNBC and The New York Times, Mr. McCain noted that Mr. Davis was no longer working on behalf of the mortgage giants. He said Mr. Davis “has had nothing to do with it since, and I’ll be glad to have his record examined by anybody who wants to look at it.”

Asked about the reports of Mr. Davis’s role, a spokesman for Mr. McCain said that during the time when Mr. Davis ran the Homeownership Alliance, the senator had backed legislation to increase oversight of the mortgage companies’ accounting and executive compensation. The legislation, however, did not seek to change their anomalous structure as private companies with federal support.

The spokesman, Tucker Bounds, also noted that the Homeownership Alliance included nonprofit organizations like Habitat for Humanity and the Urban League. “It’s not controversial to promote homeownership and minority homeownership,” Mr. Bounds said. More than a half-dozen current and former executives, however, said the Homeownership Alliance was set up mainly to defend Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by promoting their role in the housing market, and the two companies paid almost the entire cost of the group’s operations.

“They were financed largely, possibly exclusively, by Fannie and Freddie,” said William R. Maloni, a Democrat who is a former head of industry relations for Fannie Mae. “We thought it would be helpful to have someone who was a broadly recognized Republican to be the face of the organization, and that person became Rick Davis.” Mr. Maloni added, “Rick, for that purpose, turned out to be quite good.” (Several executives said Mr. Davis’s compensation was not unusual for the companies’ well-connected consultants.)

The federal bailout of the two mortgage giants has become an emblem of what critics say is the outdated or inadequate regulatory system that allowed the financial system to slide into crisis this summer.

At the time that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac recruited Mr. Davis to run the Homeownership Alliance in 2000, they were under new pressure from private industry rivals and deregulation-minded Republicans who argued that the two companies’ federal sponsorship gave them an unfair advantage and put taxpayers at risk. Critics of the companies had formed their own Washington-based advocacy group, FM Watch. They were pushing for regulations that would deter the companies from expanding into new areas, including riskier and more profitable mortgages.

Mr. Davis had recently returned to his lobbying firm from running Mr. McCain’s unexpectedly strong 2000 Republican primary campaign, which elevated Mr. McCain’s profile as a legislator and Mr. Davis’s as a lobbyist.

“You can say what you want about free-market distortions, but people like the system because it gets them into houses cheap,” Mr. Davis said to Institutional Investor magazine in 2000, adding that he would run the advocacy group out of his Alexandria, Va., lobbying firm.

The organization also hired Public Strategies, a communications firm that included former Bush adviser Mark McKinnon. Mr. Davis wrote letters and gave speeches for the group. In April 2001, he sent out a press release headlined, “It’s Tax Day — Do You Know Where Your Deductions Are? For Most Americans, They’re in Your Home.”

But by the end of 2005, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were recovering from accounting problems and re-examining costs, former executives said. The companies decided the Homeownership Alliance had outlived its usefulness, and it disappeared.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/22/us/politics/22mccain.html

:laugh2:

[OCA]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

[Yurt]

Originally Posted by Yurt
LA just posted some more factual information in another thread...maybe the great OCA can explain to us what is not factual about any of this or this thread, which i will reproduce for OCA's convenience:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthre...d=1#post306396

TIMELINE:

In 1977, Congress passed a law, signed by Pres. Jimmy Carter, requiring banks etc. to lend more money to people who were less likely to pay it back. Under the liberal Carter administration, the idea that housing was a "right", was becoming more important than mundane details such as whether the buyer could pay for it. The title, "Community Reinvestment Act", concealed the riskiness of the lending it required.

In 1986, a bill was introduced in Congress to reform this. Republicans voted for it, Democrats against, it failed.

In 1988, after Democrats took control of both the House and Senate, more laws were passed, making it easier for people to sue landlords and lenders if they felt they had been discriminated against in housing. Many lenders started making even more loans to low-income and other credit risks, based on their race or ancestry, to avoid expensive lawsuits.

In 1993, Congress mandated that government-sponsored companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac increase their purchases of mortgages for low-income and medium-income borrowers.

In 1995, Bill Clinton ordered the Treasury Dept to rewrite its rules for making CRA loans, increasing quotas of blacks and other minorities getting loans. Since many of those groups who had previously failed to qualify, were still high-risk borrowers, F&F began buying more and more such high-risk mortgages from banks. Other rules changes between 1997 and 2001 by HUD Secretary Andrew Cuomo allowed F&F to hold a huge number of such mortgages in their portfolios, with a minimum amount of cash on hand to back them up, greatly increasing the risk if mortgages started defaulting .

Freddie and Fannie began buying up huge numbers of these risky loans, essentially guaranteeing to lenders that they could make all the risky loans they wanted, and be able to unload them to those two companies. So banks began pouring billions of dollars of loans into poor communities, often "no documentation" and "no income" loans that required no money down and no verification of income. Fannie Mae chief Franklin Raines received huge salary bonuses after employees faked some profit numbers to make it look like Fannie Mae had achieved various target goals. Raines later became a financial adviser to the Barack Obama campaign.

In 2001, George W. Bush's first proposed budget stated that Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae were becoming so large, and cornering so much of the mortgage market, that any problem with these companies could have huge impacts on the entire U.S. economy; and that their lending practices were pushing them toward just such problems.

In 2003, House Finance Committee chairman Barney Frank (D-MA) insisted that Freddie and Fannie were "not facing any kind of financial crisis", and that people were exaggerating the problems seen by the govt-sponsored companies. One month later, Fannie Mae disclosed a $1.2 billion accounting error. Still, Democrat Senator Thomas Carper (D-DE) refused to acknowledge any necessity for reform.

In 2005, The Bush budget again expressed grave concerns over the explosive growth of Freddie and Fannie, stating flatly that they could no longer meet their financial responsibilities. Barney Frank (D-MA) ignored the warnings, and accused the Bush administration of creating an "artificial issue[/B]". Senate Republicans introduced a strong reform bill designed to reduce the loans to high-risk borrowers. All Republicans voted for it, but Democrats filibustered and voted against bringing the bill to the Senate floor. Republicans were unable to get the 60% needed to get the bill voted on and passed, so it died in the Senate. Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) announced "We cannot pass legislation that could limit Americans from owning homes." It was the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005, co-sponsored by John McCain.

By 2007, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac owned or guaranteed nearly half of the entire U.S. mortgage market. President Bush called emphatically for legislation to reform Freddie and Fannie, insisting that "Congress needs to get them reformed, and then I will consider other options." Senate Banking Committee chairman Christopher Dodd (D-CT) ignored the warnings and called on Bush to "immediately reconsider his ill-advised" position.

As late as [B]September 2007, legislators including Barack Obama maintained that these high-risk loans were sound financial policy.

Finally, in July 2008, Congress heeded Republicans' call for reform, and passed reform legislation for Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. But the companies were already crashing. Democrats forgot their previous almost-solid opposition to reforms, and Senator Dodd questioned, "Why weren't we doing more, why did we wait almost a year before there were any significant steps taken to try to deal with this problem? I have a lot of questions about where was the administration over the last eight years."


:dance:

[OCA]

By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK and CHARLES DUHIGG
Published: September 21, 2008
Senator John McCain’s campaign manager was paid more than $30,000 a month for five years as president of an advocacy group set up by the mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to defend them against stricter regulations, current and former officials say.


A 2004 photograph from a report by the Homeownership Alliance, an advocacy group for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, shows John McCain with Ken Guenther, a former chairman of the group, left, and David Lereah of the National Association of Realtors.
Mr. McCain, the Republican candidate for president, has recently begun campaigning as a critic of the two companies and the lobbying army that helped them evade greater regulation as they began buying riskier mortgages with implicit federal backing. He and his Democratic rival, Senator Barack Obama, have donors and advisers who are tied to the companies.

But last week the McCain campaign stepped up a running battle of guilt by association when it began broadcasting commercials trying to link Mr. Obama directly to the government bailout of the mortgage giants this month by charging that he takes advice from Fannie Mae’s former chief executive, Franklin Raines, an assertion both Mr. Raines and the Obama campaign dispute.

Incensed by the advertisements, several current and former executives of the companies came forward to discuss the role that Rick Davis, Mr. McCain’s campaign manager and longtime adviser, played in helping Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac beat back regulatory challenges when he served as president of their advocacy group, the Homeownership Alliance, formed in the summer of 2000. Some who came forward were Democrats, but Republicans, speaking on the condition of anonymity, confirmed their descriptions.

“The value that he brought to the relationship was the closeness to Senator McCain and the possibility that Senator McCain was going to run for president again,” said Robert McCarson, a former spokesman for Fannie Mae, who said that while he worked there from 2000 to 2002, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac together paid Mr. Davis’s firm $35,000 a month. Mr. Davis “didn’t really do anything,” Mr. McCarson, a Democrat, said.

Mr. Davis’s role with the group has bubbled up as an issue in the campaign, but the extent of his compensation and the details of his role have not been reported previously.

Mr. McCain was never a leading critic or defender of the mortgage giants, although several former executives of the companies said Mr. Davis did draw Mr. McCain to a 2004 awards banquet that the companies’ Homeownership Alliance held in a Senate office building. The organization printed a photograph of Mr. McCain at the event in its 2004 annual report, bolstering its clout and credibility. The event honored several other elected officials, including at least two Democrats, Gov. Edward G. Rendell of Pennsylvania and Representative Artur Davis of Alabama.

In an interview Sunday night with CNBC and The New York Times, Mr. McCain noted that Mr. Davis was no longer working on behalf of the mortgage giants. He said Mr. Davis “has had nothing to do with it since, and I’ll be glad to have his record examined by anybody who wants to look at it.”

Asked about the reports of Mr. Davis’s role, a spokesman for Mr. McCain said that during the time when Mr. Davis ran the Homeownership Alliance, the senator had backed legislation to increase oversight of the mortgage companies’ accounting and executive compensation. The legislation, however, did not seek to change their anomalous structure as private companies with federal support.

The spokesman, Tucker Bounds, also noted that the Homeownership Alliance included nonprofit organizations like Habitat for Humanity and the Urban League. “It’s not controversial to promote homeownership and minority homeownership,” Mr. Bounds said. More than a half-dozen current and former executives, however, said the Homeownership Alliance was set up mainly to defend Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by promoting their role in the housing market, and the two companies paid almost the entire cost of the group’s operations.

“They were financed largely, possibly exclusively, by Fannie and Freddie,” said William R. Maloni, a Democrat who is a former head of industry relations for Fannie Mae. “We thought it would be helpful to have someone who was a broadly recognized Republican to be the face of the organization, and that person became Rick Davis.” Mr. Maloni added, “Rick, for that purpose, turned out to be quite good.” (Several executives said Mr. Davis’s compensation was not unusual for the companies’ well-connected consultants.)

The federal bailout of the two mortgage giants has become an emblem of what critics say is the outdated or inadequate regulatory system that allowed the financial system to slide into crisis this summer.

At the time that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac recruited Mr. Davis to run the Homeownership Alliance in 2000, they were under new pressure from private industry rivals and deregulation-minded Republicans who argued that the two companies’ federal sponsorship gave them an unfair advantage and put taxpayers at risk. Critics of the companies had formed their own Washington-based advocacy group, FM Watch. They were pushing for regulations that would deter the companies from expanding into new areas, including riskier and more profitable mortgages.

Mr. Davis had recently returned to his lobbying firm from running Mr. McCain’s unexpectedly strong 2000 Republican primary campaign, which elevated Mr. McCain’s profile as a legislator and Mr. Davis’s as a lobbyist.

“You can say what you want about free-market distortions, but people like the system because it gets them into houses cheap,” Mr. Davis said to Institutional Investor magazine in 2000, adding that he would run the advocacy group out of his Alexandria, Va., lobbying firm.

The organization also hired Public Strategies, a communications firm that included former Bush adviser Mark McKinnon. Mr. Davis wrote letters and gave speeches for the group. In April 2001, he sent out a press release headlined, “It’s Tax Day — Do You Know Where Your Deductions Are? For Most Americans, They’re in Your Home.”

But by the end of 2005, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were recovering from accounting problems and re-examining costs, former executives said. The companies decided the Homeownership Alliance had outlived its usefulness, and it disappeared.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/22/us/politics/22mccain.html

:boom2:

[Yurt]

so what OCA...your report states: Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac together paid Mr. Davis’s firm $35,000 a month. Mr. Davis “didn’t really do anything,” Mr. McCarson, a Democrat, said.

whoopee...how is this more egregious than the factual evidence i presented? he didn't really do anything....yup, that is worse than BF on the hill yelling at republicans that they are fear mongering and that we do not need to fix the mtg co's....worse than your boy obama saying in 2007 that they are sound financial companies...

i have answered yours, will await your reply to mine. :cool:

[Kathianne]

so what OCA...your report states: Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac together paid Mr. Davis’s firm $35,000 a month. Mr. Davis “didn’t really do anything,” Mr. McCarson, a Democrat, said.

whoopee...how is this more egregious than the factual evidence i presented? he didn't really do anything....yup, that is worse than BF on the hill yelling at republicans that they are fear mongering and that we do not need to fix the mtg co's....worse than your boy obama saying in 2007 that they are sound financial companies...

i have answered yours, will await your reply to mine. :cool:

Not to mention that Davis was involved with 'campaign', not policy. He wasn't found guilty, fined, etc., of any wrong doing. Oh, a partisan said he 'didn't do anything', for that he is equivalent of Raines? :laugh2:

[OCA]

so what OCA...your report states: Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac together paid Mr. Davis’s firm $35,000 a month. Mr. Davis “didn’t really do anything,” Mr. McCarson, a Democrat, said.

whoopee...how is this more egregious than the factual evidence i presented? he didn't really do anything....yup, that is worse than BF on the hill yelling at republicans that they are fear mongering and that we do not need to fix the mtg co's....worse than your boy obama saying in 2007 that they are sound financial companies...

i have answered yours, will await your reply to mine. :cool:

Its never anything, just like the report on Mrs. Wasilla and the trooper firing. Ever heard of conflict of interest?

So what if he said they were sound? Guess he was wrong just like J.Lib was wrong on Iraq every step of the way.

[OCA]

If anybody here would like me to campaign for them i'll gladly do it, I need to tell you i'm receiving 35 g a month from a federally backed mortgage company, i'm sure it won't influence me nor the candidate:laugh2:

[Kathianne]

If anybody here would like me to campaign for them i'll gladly do it, I need to tell you i'm receiving 35 g a month from a federally backed mortgage company, i'm sure it won't influence me nor the candidate:laugh2:

Yet there are no callers for your 'monster talents'. Go figure.

[OCA]

Yet there are no callers for your 'monster talents'. Go figure.

You've been learning at the feet of the master, J.Lib......the personal cheap shot guru.

Maybe you should volunteer.

[OCA]

Yet there are no callers for your 'monster talents'. Go figure.

The obvious truth on Mr. Davis hurt, didn't it Kath? I know you aren't as stupid as you are playing.

[Kathianne]

The obvious truth on Mr. Davis hurt, didn't it Kath? I know you aren't as stupid as you are playing.

Hey OCA, speaking of 'hurt', this is the first time you've twice quoted one of my posts. ;)

[OCA]

Hey OCA, speaking of 'hurt', this is the first time you've twice quoted one of my posts. ;)

Left something out, felt it needed its own post.

[Yurt]

Its never anything, just like the report on Mrs. Wasilla and the trooper firing. Ever heard of conflict of interest?

So what if he said they were sound? Guess he was wrong just like J.Lib was wrong on Iraq every step of the way.

IOW, you still are practicing the debate tactic of keeping head in sand as you still refuse to discuss the facts i presented....as if yours alone makes the case that mccain alone is at fault....

:lame2:

it is clear you are in the dem camp and they can do no wrong...

[OCA]

it is clear you are in the dem camp and they can do no wrong...

WOW! You mean i'm just the same as you and about 10 others here except i'm a Dem hack and you guys are Repub hacks?

I'm trying to save the Repub party from the John McCains of the world, remember that.

[Yurt]

WOW! You mean i'm just the same as you and about 10 others here except i'm a Dem hack and you guys are Repub hacks?

I'm trying to save the Repub party from the John McCains of the world, remember that.

where have you pointed the dems fault in this matter? all i have seen is you pointing the finger at repubs...and your finger pointing at the repubs is tenuous at best...whereas the evidence presented by Little Acorn and reproduced for you unequivocally details where the dems are strongly responsible for this. sure, republicans are not innocent, but the brunt of the blame clearly lies with liberal policies and the ranting and raving of barney "manwhole" frank shouting the repubs are making this up when repubs have been warning of dire consequences for approx. a decade

your refusal to see any of those faults has nothing to do with saving the republican party from teh JM's of this world...nothing

[OCA]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

[namvet]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14492.html

[OCA]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14492.html

Sure, why not? They can't win on the issues so they focus on some isolated incidents and run with it, God knows McCain has to get the focus off the economy where he doesn't know his asshole from a hole in the ground.

Looks like it ain't working though, America is not falling for his politics of division. Nothing will come of the ACORN issue.

[namvet]

Sure, why not? They can't win on the issues so they focus on some isolated incidents and run with it, God knows McCain has to get the focus off the economy where he doesn't know his asshole from a hole in the ground.

Looks like it ain't working though, America is not falling for his politics of division. Nothing will come of the ACORN issue.

your terrorists boy does not share your confidence in the polls. I just read he's begging the Klintons to help him out. he knows more than you he can still lose.

[jimnyc]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

Instead of posting the same link to a poll over and over - why not point by point dispute the article that Yurt has reposted here for you, which is full of facts and even the pertinent points are bolded. While blaming the Republicans to an extent very well may be true, you'll look like less of a hack if you either admit the points showing the Dems mishandling, or refute what has been written. Yurt has done everything short of beg you to reply/dispute to the article.

[OCA]

your terrorists boy does not share your confidence in the polls. I just read he's begging the Klintons to help him out. he knows more than you he can still lose.

:link::link:

You are not a good American, you are part of the problem, probably should be deported.

[OCA]

Instead of posting the same link to a poll over and over - why not point by point dispute the article that Yurt has reposted here for you, which is full of facts and even the pertinent points are bolded. While blaming the Republicans to an extent very well may be true, you'll look like less of a hack if you either admit the points showing the Dems mishandling, or refute what has been written. Yurt has done everything short of beg you to reply/dispute to the article.

Jimmy, you do your thing,i'll do mine.

My problem is not with who is to blame so much but who has a plan to fix it........J.Lib has zero plan, Obama has a very viable one.

[namvet]

:link::link:

You are not a good American, you are part of the problem, probably should be deported.

nore are you. your a total failure and I refuse to even reconize your breed as "American". and I dare you to even attept to deport ME traitor.

[namvet]

Jimmy, you do your thing,i'll do mine.

My problem is not with who is to blame so much but who has a plan to fix it........J.Lib has zero plan, Obama has a very viable one.


Obama has a very viable one

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg113/NamesAshHousewares/nukebonestell.jpg

[Kathianne]

Jimmy, you do your thing,i'll do mine.

My problem is not with who is to blame so much but who has a plan to fix it........J.Lib has zero plan, Obama has a very viable one.

Bomb, bomb, bomb Afghanistan and Pakistan, Obama's mantra.

[jimnyc]

Jimmy, you do your thing,i'll do mine.

My problem is not with who is to blame so much but who has a plan to fix it........J.Lib has zero plan, Obama has a very viable one.

With all due respect, you're losing respect as a debater if you fail to address facts that your "opponents" present.

And there was MUCH discussion as to how we got here, and even you yourself posted stuff blaming the Republicans.

P.S. - You say McCain has "zero plan" which is simply not true. While you may not agree with his direction, stating he doesn't have a plan is ridiculous.

[OCA]

Bomb, bomb, bomb Afghanistan and Pakistan, Obama's mantra.

Ummmm we are talking economy, please try to keep up.

But if you insist, his plan is really no different than the current admin's or J.Lib's, except that J.Lib wants to bomb Iran too.

I guess you are against the Pakistan thing too, you really don't want OBL, do you?

[Kathianne]

Instead of posting the same link to a poll over and over - why not point by point dispute the article that Yurt has reposted here for you, which is full of facts and even the pertinent points are bolded. While blaming the Republicans to an extent very well may be true, you'll look like less of a hack if you either admit the points showing the Dems mishandling, or refute what has been written. Yurt has done everything short of beg you to reply/dispute to the article.

Because OCA can't. He went over the top with his anti-McCain position, now argues for Obama, but is voting for the Constitutional Party candidate. He certainly knows how to debate, but he lost because of his hyperbole. Jim, he's made his own bed and knows how to get out of it.

[OCA]

With all due respect, you're losing respect as a debater if you fail to address facts that your "opponents" present.

And there was MUCH discussion as to how we got here, and even you yourself posted stuff blaming the Republicans.

P.S. - You say McCain has "zero plan" which is simply not true. While you may not agree with his direction, stating he doesn't have a plan is ridiculous.

I've debated it, it has a little merit but most of the blame lies with deregulationist Republicans who tried to cover their asses after twenty plus years of giving all aspects of the financial industry a free fucking reign.

I could give two shits less what the fucking hacks and party bots here think about my debating skills, you know me better than that, I just do not give a flying fuck about other thoughts towards me.

McCain does have a plan, yes he has one................give the lenders a free fucking pass by buying out the bad loans at face value. Might as well be AIG taking a 400,000 g junket to the fucking spa.

[Kathianne]

Ummmm we are talking economy, please try to keep up.

But if you insist, his plan is really no different than the current admin's or J.Lib's, except that J.Lib wants to bomb Iran too.

I guess you are against the Pakistan thing too, you really don't want OBL, do you?

I'm keeping up just fine, thanks. You've gone over the top, know it, now can't bring yourself from being anything other than a bully. How's that working for you?

[OCA]

Because OCA can't. He went over the top with his anti-McCain position, now argues for Obama, but is voting for the Constitutional Party candidate. He certainly knows how to debate, but he lost because of his hyperbole. Jim, he's made his own bed and knows how to get out of it.

Fuck off, I ain't lost shit. You can scream it from the mountain tops but you and I both know what you said is a load of crap.

[OCA]

I'm keeping up just fine, thanks. You've gone over the top, know it, now can't bring yourself from being anything other than a bully. How's that working for you?

Working just fine since you fail to acknowledge the myriad of minuses against the current incarnation of McCain and instead blindly follow the party line, already making up excuses for the impending loss on Nov.4

[jimnyc]

I've debated it, it has a little merit but most of the blame lies with deregulationist Republicans who tried to cover their asses after twenty plus years of giving all aspects of the financial industry a free fucking reign.

I could give two shits less what the fucking hacks and party bots here think about my debating skills, you know me better than that, I just do not give a flying fuck about other thoughts towards me.

McCain does have a plan, yes he has one................give the lenders a free fucking pass by buying out the bad loans at face value. Might as well be AIG taking a 400,000 g junket to the fucking spa.

Hey, if you'd prefer to toss out "talking points" instead of addressing the FACTS in the article that Yurt re-posted - no skin off my back. And you certainly don't need to prove your debating skills to me. I know you have them, I've watched you for over 5 years now, which is why it surprises me that you refuse to address said facts.

[Kathianne]

Working just fine since you fail to acknowledge the myriad of minuses against the current incarnation of McCain and instead blindly follow the party line, already making up excuses for the impending loss on Nov.4

What? Laying them at the feet of McCain? :laugh2: To point out ACORN and the hypocrisy of the left regarding voting integrity is not to absolve McCain from handing Obama the election.

Get a grip OCA, you are going over to the weird side.

[OCA]

Hey, if you'd prefer to toss out "talking points" instead of addressing the FACTS in the article that Yurt re-posted - no skin off my back. And you certainly don't need to prove your debating skills to me. I know you have them, I've watched you for over 5 years now, which is why it surprises me that you refuse to address said facts.

What facts Jimmy? That the deregulationist Repubs a few years back decided that they went too far and tried to cover their asses by warning of impending doom? That fact?

Great if you guys want to blame the Demos and give the deregulationist Repubs a pass fine but going forward no more passes and we'll just see if the Repubs are right and the Deos wrong on the economy.......I wonder if the economy turns around under the Obama admin, I wonder if the hacks here will give him an ounce of credit? I mean it certainly can't get much worse than what the current crop of Repubs have done to it.

[OCA]

What? Laying them at the feet of McCain? :laugh2: To point out ACORN and the hypocrisy of the left regarding voting integrity is not to absolve McCain from handing Obama the election.

Get a grip OCA, you are going over to the weird side.

Until you can point to a concerted nationwide conspiracy of voting fraud against Acorn and not the actions of a few lone individuals then I suggest you move on, its not working. If it were Obama would be losing ground instead he's gaining.

I guess if we can paint ACORN with a broad stroke then I can paint all McCain supporters as anti-Arab like the kook in Ohio the other day.

[OCA]

nore are you. your a total failure and I refuse to even reconize your breed as "American". and I dare you to even attept to deport ME traitor.

Wouldn't be hard to find you, just look for a brown skinned fellow eating tacos and waiting for someone to take you to a drywall job.

[jimnyc]

Quotes from OCA on this very board pertaining to Obama - the man he now wants to win to somehow teach the conservatives a lesson.

In reference to his wife:


She needs to stay home and clean chitlins also so Obama can prove that he is "down with the dogs".


This guy does your side more damage than we could ever hope to.......he's a joke.


Obama will lose........because of the White vote, with Blacks only comprising 13% of the population there simply aren't the numbers available for victory.

Oh I know, I know, you see many Whites at his stump speeches and so forth.......in the anonymity of the polling booth ain't no way Whites voting for a Black, especially a Black muslim.

I hope that either Hillary or Barack gets the nomination, neither stands a chance in the general. I fear Edwards though, he's just enough of a slick conman and just stupid enough like Bubba to get elected.


Hillary nor Obama can carry 1 southern state. They don't vote for socialist feminists or Blacks no matter their marriage status.

That is why neither of those two can win a general election, deal with that fact.

Hasn't OCA been posting "RealClearPolitics" polls daily?


Polls mean exactly this...........jackshit.

Tancredo cannot win, no prayer.


I will hate it, bad for the country but i'm a realist and i'm preparing myself ahead of time.

Neither Obama or pick your Republican stands a chance.


Your daddy is turning over in his grave. "they hate us, they hate us because Mississippi represents a shining example of successful segregation".

Obama is done once it turns South and once the 18 yr olds lose their enthusiasm, mature adults know better than to put that inexperienced pup in the oval office.


You know you've seen the huge momentum shift to tne Clinton camp and we all know that Obama does not have the experience to bring the momentum back to his side.

I say she has the nomination sown up on super Tuesday.


NATO the young vote for Obama for 1 simple reason, he's Black and they think thats cool, its not for any issue position he takes.


You got it W.J., people vote for this man purely based on race, because its cool to vote for a Black, not one his supporters can intimately explain a proposal the man has to tackle any problem but they simply spout one simple word......change.


As far as the super delegates go you guys are deluding yourself, Bubba is head of the Demo party still and he will call chips in and control those delegates.........simply put Obama is a 10 yr old kid trying to hit a Clemens forkball..........no chance. Obama simply will be outclassed when it comes time to start making deals come convention time.

In reference to Obama taking the oath of the Presidency:


Like that has a chance in hell of happening! Lets deal in reality only.

[Kathianne]

Wouldn't be hard to find you, just look for a brown skinned fellow eating tacos and waiting for someone to take you to a drywall job.

So he's one of your 'favorite people' crowd? Just kidding. But if he was 'a brown skinned fellow...' you have many a time defended and applauded such.

[jimnyc]

What facts Jimmy?

Would you like me to have Yurt re-post the same article for like the 5th time?

[OCA]

So he's one of your 'favorite people' crowd? Just kidding. But if he was 'a brown skinned fellow...' you have many a time defended and applauded such.

Honey I knew it would drive a racist numbnut like this clown mad.

[Kathianne]

Honey I knew it would drive a racist numbnut like this clown mad.

Which? Me? I'm far from a racist, I doubt you remember one of my first posts on the old board, but you were the first to rep me. I do remember.

I've not a thing against Hispanics, blacks, Asians, Native Americans. My problem would be illegals, especially those that commit crimes and Muslims. I pray for more understanding about the later daily, but also that they become less violent or approving of others' violence.

[OCA]

Would you like me to have Yurt re-post the same article for like the 5th time?

Knock yourself out.

I don't dispute much of what the link said I just have a different interpretation of why deregulationist Repubs were warning of doom a while back and calling for legislation.................they were covering their asses!

[OCA]

Which? Me? I'm far from a racist, I doubt you remember one of my first posts on the old board, but you were the first to rep me. I do remember.

I've not a thing against Hispanics, blacks, Asians, Native Americans. My problem would be illegals, especially those that commit crimes and Muslims. I pray for more understanding about the later daily, but also that they become less violent or approving of others' violence.

Namvet, my dear, Namvet.

[jimnyc]

So, OCA, for the sake of bringing conservatism back, you would prefer a chitlin eatin "down with the dogs man. One who you state would cause damage to our country. You admit he's inexperienced. You admit people are voting for him because he's black, not for any of the positions he takes. You admit no supporter of his can explain what he'll do, just spout the word "change". You compare him to a 10yr old.

So while you disagree with the man you call "Johnny Lib", you'd rather see the man above reach the highest office in the land after you've described him as such?

[OCA]

So, OCA, for the sake of bringing conservatism back, you would prefer a chitlin eatin "down with the dogs man. One who you state would cause damage to our country. You admit he's inexperienced. You admit people are voting for him because he's black, not for any of the positions he takes. You admit no supporter of his can explain what he'll do, just spout the word "change". You compare him to a 10yr old.

So while you disagree with the man you call "Johnny Lib", you'd rather see the man above reach the highest office in the land after you've described him as such?

Jimmy, can you point out where I said this? I probably said shit about inexperience and Black but the "dogs" and "chitlins" shit I highly doubt.

At this point in time I believe his positions to be more thought out, practical and better for the current state our country is in. His supporters can certainly tell you now what he supports.

[Kathianne]

Jimmy, can you point out where I said this? I probably said shit about inexperience and Black but the "dogs" and "chitlins" shit I highly doubt.

At this point in time I believe his positions to be more thought out, practical and better for the current state our country is in. His supporters can certainly tell you now what he supports.

So on the record now. While you'll vote for Constitution Party candidate, you agree that either a Democrat or Republican will win. So, given your druthers, the Democrat, Obama is the better choice?

[jimnyc]

Jimmy, can you point out where I said this? I probably said shit about inexperience and Black but the "dogs" and "chitlins" shit I highly doubt.

At this point in time I believe his positions to be more thought out, practical and better for the current state our country is in. His supporters can certainly tell you now what he supports.

Did you think I just made up the quotes I posted for you a few posts back? Here is the link to the post where you stated "She needs to stay home and clean chitlins also so Obama can prove that he is "down with the dogs"."

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=57378&highlight=obama#post57378

Do you still highly doubt you said that?

[jimnyc]

At this point in time I believe his positions to be more thought out, practical and better for the current state our country is in. His supporters can certainly tell you now what he supports.

You said he would damage the country. He was inexperienced. You compared him to a 10yr old.

Was it his great orating skills that changed your mind and now see him as experienced? His 143 days in office? His voting "present" over 100 times? Being the most liberal voting Senator in office? What specifically made you make such a drastic change and suddenly now see him as qualified?

[Kathianne]

You said he would damage the country. He was inexperienced. You compared him to a 10yr old.

Was it his great orating skills that changed your mind and now see him as experienced? His 143 days in office? His voting "present" over 100 times? Being the most liberal voting Senator in office? What specifically made you make such a drastic change and suddenly now see him as qualified?

Perhaps just the overturning of the Republican Party that OCA feels let him down?

[Yurt]

Knock yourself out.

I don't dispute much of what the link said I just have a different interpretation of why deregulationist Repubs were warning of doom a while back and calling for legislation.................they were covering their asses!

:lol:

covering their asses...why? for what reasons? so sounding the alarm almost a decade ago, and then in 2003 arguing on capital hill that we must change this now before it becomes an even more serious problem....only to have the democrats shout them down as fear mongers....is somehow CYA

what has gotten into you lately? and since you don't disput ""much"" of the link, then surely you see the brunt of the blame lies heavily with the dems....i am guessing you did not fully read the link, you skimmed it, even after i, sniffle, took all that, sniffle, time to bold and underline for you :laugh2:

[OCA]

So on the record now. While you'll vote for Constitution Party candidate, you agree that either a Democrat or Republican will win. So, given your druthers, the Democrat, Obama is the better choice?

Given the current state of affairs in the country, seeing that McCain is an obvious continuation of W policies and examining the issues and each candidates solutions to those issues I believe Obama to be better suited at dealing with said issues.

[OCA]

Did you think I just made up the quotes I posted for you a few posts back? Here is the link to the post where you stated "She needs to stay home and clean chitlins also so Obama can prove that he is "down with the dogs"."

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=57378&highlight=obama#post57378

Do you still highly doubt you said that?

Looks like I did say that, in the context of the time and situation, the primary vs Hillary Obama was trying to prove his "blackness", I thought it to be an ill advised move...................looks like I was wrong because he is going to win the oval office.

[OCA]

You said he would damage the country. He was inexperienced. You compared him to a 10yr old.

Was it his great orating skills that changed your mind and now see him as experienced? His 143 days in office? His voting "present" over 100 times? Being the most liberal voting Senator in office? What specifically made you make such a drastic change and suddenly now see him as qualified?

I was wrong, he is, to anyone who has paid attention to the campaign, ultimately more qualified than J.LIB.

Although I do not agree with him on some issues, mostly social ones, he has made very specific and practical proposals to the main issues in this campaign, Iraq and the economy. Now with that said I know i'm going to get some "surrender" and "socialist" comments but.......................has anyone paid any attention to just who is actually insituting socialism lately? Thats right, the Bush admin., and what party do they belong to? Thats right, Repub. Tell me, what did Henry Paulson propose over the weekend? Nationalization of a large part of the banking system...............thats socialism and McCain is down with it.

[namvet]

Given the current state of affairs in the country, seeing that McCain is an obvious continuation of W policies and examining the issues and each candidates solutions to those issues I believe Obama to be better suited at dealing with said issues.

another liberal living in the past. stuck in the mud !!!!

[OCA]

Perhaps just the overturning of the Republican Party that OCA feels let him down?

Correct, can you tell me Kath what solid conservative actions and results have the Republican poarty affected in the last twenty years?

My take, and this is the take of many tens of thousands of other social conservatives is the Repub party runs campaigns conservatively but once elected govern liberally. What seperates them from Demos? Nothing.

[OCA]

:lol:

covering their asses...why? for what reasons? so sounding the alarm almost a decade ago, and then in 2003 arguing on capital hill that we must change this now before it becomes an even more serious problem....only to have the democrats shout them down as fear mongers....is somehow CYA

what has gotten into you lately? and since you don't disput ""much"" of the link, then surely you see the brunt of the blame lies heavily with the dems....i am guessing you did not fully read the link, you skimmed it, even after i, sniffle, took all that, sniffle, time to bold and underline for you :laugh2:

Deregulation, since 1981, is to blame, Repubs realized it then figured they would beat Demos to the punch so they could cry that they were the ones who wanted to fix the problem.....................it rings hollow.

[OCA]

another liberal living in the past. stuck in the mud !!!!


A vote for John McCain is a vote for continuation of the policies which have gotten us to the shithole we currently live in.....................talk about stuck in the mud.

One could, with great accuracy say you don't give a fuck about America.......................traitor.

[red states rule]

A vote for John McCain is a vote for continuation of the policies which have gotten us to the shithole we currently live in.....................talk about stuck in the mud.

One could, with great accuracy say you don't give a fuck about America.......................traitor.

Getting your talking points from MFM I see. Filling in for him while he is one his vacation?

[OCA]

Getting your talking points from MFM I see. Filling in for him while he is one his vacation?

Nothing to say as usual I see, nothing pertinent to the topic. You are a non factor here. Leave the debate to the adults.

Maybe you are busy helping Henry Paulson institute socialism.

[red states rule]

Nothing to say as usual I see, nothing pertinent to the topic. You are a non factor here. Leave the debate to the adults.

Maybe you are busy helping Henry Paulson institute socialism.

I can see you have nothing to back up your liberal rants so if you want to ignore me fine. Just like MFM does

Why not play the race card while yoiu are at it - if we do not obey your commands and vote for Obama we are racists

[OCA]

I can see you have nothing to back up your liberal rants so if you want to ignore me fine. Just like MFM does

Why not play the race card while yoiu are at it - if we do not obey your commands and vote for Obama we are racists

You simply are not reading, I don't blame you though, when you RINOS are getting your asses handed to you I wouldn't read either.

I've backed everything up..................and not with simpleton cut and pastes either.

[red states rule]

You simply are not reading, I don't blame you though, when you RINOS are getting your asses handed to you I wouldn't read either.

I've backed everything up..................and not with simpleton cut and pastes either.

You have backed up nothing idiot. Yurt and Kat have buried your ass in facts - like MFM and most libs - you ignore the facts and thump your chest how only Republicans are to blame

Your anger over Hillary losing has puched you over the edge. For someone who claims to be a conservative; you are willing to bury the party and have Obama win out of sheer spite

[mundame]

Your anger over Hillary losing has puched you over the edge. For someone who claims to be a conservative; you are willing to bury the party and have Obama win out of sheer spite


If he's like me, he's just disillusioned. At some point you have to say, these turkeys do not either one of them meet my standards and I will not validate them!

The country is going down and I'm not participating in this.

[red states rule]

If he's like me, he's just disillusioned. At some point you have to say, these turkeys do not either one of them meet my standards and I will not validate them!

The country is going down and I'm not participating in this.

Like you, OCA ignores facts and proof that goes against his predetermined views

It is not about being disillusioned. It is about being a hack, and in his case, a sore loser

[Yurt]

Deregulation, since 1981, is to blame, Repubs realized it then figured they would beat Demos to the punch so they could cry that they were the ones who wanted to fix the problem.....................it rings hollow.

the program was started in 1977

even if we can blame deregulation entirely, which you simply cannot and to suggest such is ignorance....why then is there a problem with them sounding the alarm nearly a decade ago ONLY to have the dems ignore the alarm and say that both mtg companies are great and in sound financial shape...obama just last year said those companies are sound financially and this is the guy you trust for his economic and financial judgement :laugh2:

according to you, if i fuck up and later realize it and try to warn people, my warning is hollow and should be ignored

that is insane logic.....why did the dems yell and call the repubs fear mongers and why did the dems do nothing? the dems were also at fault, so who then is going to sound the alarm and not be hollow OCA?

[OCA]

You have backed up nothing idiot. Yurt and Kat have buried your ass in facts - like MFM and most libs - you ignore the facts and thump your chest how only Republicans are to blame

Your anger over Hillary losing has puched you over the edge. For someone who claims to be a conservative; you are willing to bury the party and have Obama win out of sheer spite

"idiot"

I accept your white flag.

[red states rule]

"idiot"

I accept your white flag.


Yea, like you won with your 13 year article on the mob :laugh2:

[jimnyc]

Looks like I did say that, in the context of the time and situation, the primary vs Hillary Obama was trying to prove his "blackness", I thought it to be an ill advised move...................looks like I was wrong because he is going to win the oval office.

So in the past year:

Michelle stopped making chitlins
Obama is no longer down with the dogs
He's aged enough to be qualified for President
The ideas he has, which you state no one could explain other than "change", have somehow woken you up
He will no longer damage our country

His total of experience in government, which is running for President, has fixed all the problems you saw in him?

[Yurt]

the program was started in 1977

even if we can blame deregulation entirely, which you simply cannot and to suggest such is ignorance....why then is there a problem with them sounding the alarm nearly a decade ago ONLY to have the dems ignore the alarm and say that both mtg companies are great and in sound financial shape...obama just last year said those companies are sound financially and this is the guy you trust for his economic and financial judgement :laugh2:

according to you, if i fuck up and later realize it and try to warn people, my warning is hollow and should be ignored

that is insane logic.....why did the dems yell and call the repubs fear mongers and why did the dems do nothing? the dems were also at fault, so who then is going to sound the alarm and not be hollow OCA?

watch the first minute of this video...and don't forget obama sued citibank under CRA to force it to make loans to people who could not afford it....and this is the guy you trust for economic plans/policies???


<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FewmvkaTXHU&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FewmvkaTXHU&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[OCA]

So in the past year:

Michelle stopped making chitlins
Obama is no longer down with the dogs
He's aged enough to be qualified for President
The ideas he has, which you state no one could explain other than "change", have somehow woken you up
He will no longer damage our country

His total of experience in government, which is running for President, has fixed all the problems you saw in him?

Yep.

Let me change something though..............ne has never damaged our country unlike the current douchebag.

[jimnyc]

Yep.

Let me change something though..............ne has never damaged our country unlike the current douchebag.

I'm glad you have seen the light with Obama. His extreme lack of experience you spoke of has now out the window, and he's qualified to be president because he ran a presidential campaign.

No offense, but you either were extremely naive when you spoke of Obama, and didn't know shit about him then - and therefore shouldn't have made the comments - or you're now extremely naive to believe a man can gain presidential experience in a years time simply by touring the country and neglecting his senatorial duties.

[Kathianne]

I'm glad you have seen the light with Obama. His extreme lack of experience you spoke of has now out the window, and he's qualified to be president because he ran a presidential campaign.

No offense, but you either were extremely naive when you spoke of Obama, and didn't know shit about him then - and therefore shouldn't have made the comments - or you're now extremely naive to believe a man can gain presidential experience in a years time simply by touring the country and neglecting his senatorial duties.

Not to mention he should have listened to someone on the ground here in Chicago, moi! LOL!

[OCA]

I'm glad you have seen the light with Obama. His extreme lack of experience you spoke of has now out the window, and he's qualified to be president because he ran a presidential campaign.

No offense, but you either were extremely naive when you spoke of Obama, and didn't know shit about him then - and therefore shouldn't have made the comments - or you're now extremely naive to believe a man can gain presidential experience in a years time simply by touring the country and neglecting his senatorial duties.

Well looks like we disagree on both Obama and me knowing shit.............looks like most of the country agrees with me too.

I'd say also that Obama may be more inexperienced timewise than J.Lib but what does it then say about J.Lib that he's getting the shit kicked out of him by this "inexperienced" man?

[Kathianne]

Well looks like we disagree on both Obama and me knowing shit.............looks like most of the country agrees with me too.

I'd say also that Obama may be more inexperienced timewise than J.Lib but what does it then say about J.Lib that he's getting the shit kicked out of him by this "inexperienced" man?

Good for you, you join 'most of the country' in that he's good looking, black, and young. More power to you.

Oh yeah, he's not GOP.

[jimnyc]

Well looks like we disagree on both Obama and me knowing shit.............looks like most of the country agrees with me too.

I'd say also that Obama may be more inexperienced timewise than J.Lib but what does it then say about J.Lib that he's getting the shit kicked out of him by this "inexperienced" man?

If you "knew shit" - you wouldn't have spouted off the exact opposite of what your stating now. I can make a call both ways as well and then proclaim one of them as being correct! What's the saying about a broken clock?

[OCA]

If you "knew shit" - you wouldn't have spouted off the exact opposite of what your stating now. I can make a call both ways as well and then proclaim one of them as being correct! What's the saying about a broken clock?

So you are saying that nobody ever is allowed to change their mind? That once we take a position thats it? Its fucking stuck their forever?

I'll tell you this, i'd rather have a liberal Obama than a complete piece of shit RINO like J.Lib who has sucked the johnson of every Demo from Teddy to Harry.

J.Lib is a Repub like Lenin was a capitalist.............he's a complete fucking joke plus he's got one foot in the grave and lord knows we don't need the airhead Mrs. Wasilla in the oval office, don't give me any shit either because if you've been paying attention to her lately you know there are heroin addict strippers that are smarter than her.

[OCA]

Good for you, you join 'most of the country' in that he's good looking, black, and young. More power to you.

Oh yeah, he's not GOP.

Not to mention his proposals are spot on, does Johnny have any proposals? I mean proposals that are his alone?:laugh2:

[Kathianne]

If you "knew shit" - you wouldn't have spouted off the exact opposite of what your stating now. I can make a call both ways as well and then proclaim one of them as being correct! What's the saying about a broken clock?

How else to post you are the 'Monster' of right calls? Hey Jim, I'm a monster, I said there would be those that claimed to be right all the time! Me wins! Not even Greek, just a semi-literate American. Damn.

[jimnyc]

So you are saying that nobody ever is allowed to change their mind? That once we take a position thats it? Its fucking stuck their forever?

Of course one can change their mind. It's like changing your mind about abortion lets say, after you've studied the subject for a few years. But your comments were about an EXTREME lack of experience. You can change your mind about that, but you simply cannot articulate where that experience came from in the past year - especially since 1% of that time was spent in Washington.


I'll tell you this, i'd rather have a liberal Obama than a complete piece of shit RINO like J.Lib who has sucked the johnson of every Demo from Teddy to Harry.

So, you don't like a so called conservative who has leaned towards liberalism - so therefore you'll go with an outright liberal. Makes sense to me!


J.Lib is a Repub like Lenin was a capitalist.............he's a complete fucking joke plus he's got one foot in the grave and lord knows we don't need the airhead Mrs. Wasilla in the oval office, don't give me any shit either because if you've been paying attention to her lately you know there are heroin addict strippers that are smarter than her.

I'll bet whatever you can afford that she's accomplished much more in her life than you did. Not trying to be insulting, just stating the facts. Council member, Mayor, Governor - and now worth over 7 figures. Either she duped thousands over the years, or she has proven herself to many. I personally think she's MUCH more qualified to be VP than Obama is to be President.

[Yurt]

the program was started in 1977

even if we can blame deregulation entirely, which you simply cannot and to suggest such is ignorance....why then is there a problem with them sounding the alarm nearly a decade ago ONLY to have the dems ignore the alarm and say that both mtg companies are great and in sound financial shape...obama just last year said those companies are sound financially and this is the guy you trust for his economic and financial judgement :laugh2:

according to you, if i fuck up and later realize it and try to warn people, my warning is hollow and should be ignored

that is insane logic.....why did the dems yell and call the repubs fear mongers and why did the dems do nothing? the dems were also at fault, so who then is going to sound the alarm and not be hollow OCA?


"idiot"

I accept your white flag.


watch the first minute of this video...and don't forget obama sued citibank under CRA to force it to make loans to people who could not afford it....and this is the guy you trust for economic plans/policies???


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your flag is accepted

[Yurt]

Not to mention his proposals are spot on, does Johnny have any proposals? I mean proposals that are his alone?:laugh2:

and obama's proposals are "his" :laugh2: how naive...as if the dem party leaders and folks in washington have not been meeting with him lately

[OCA]

and obama's proposals are "his" :laugh2: how naive...as if the dem party leaders and folks in washington have not been meeting with him lately

I'd say the same for J.Lib but it hasn't all the party leaders just W making sure he'll carry his disastrous policies forward if elected.

[OCA]

Of course one can change their mind. It's like changing your mind about abortion lets say, after you've studied the subject for a few years. But your comments were about an EXTREME lack of experience. You can change your mind about that, but you simply cannot articulate where that experience came from in the past year - especially since 1% of that time was spent in Washington.



So, you don't like a so called conservative who has leaned towards liberalism - so therefore you'll go with an outright liberal. Makes sense to me!



I'll bet whatever you can afford that she's accomplished much more in her life than you did. Not trying to be insulting, just stating the facts. Council member, Mayor, Governor - and now worth over 7 figures. Either she duped thousands over the years, or she has proven herself to many. I personally think she's MUCH more qualified to be VP than Obama is to be President.

And J.Lib has spent an equally small amount of time in D.C the last year and the time he spent there before that he spent sleeping with Demos furthering liberal policies. At least Obama tells you he's liberal, J.Lib lies to you about it.

Jimmy you can't be serious about her not being a dumbshit, can you? Should I provide another link to the Katie Couric interview? Of course you'll say it was the interviwer's fault, its always somebody else's fault after all, RINOS are never to blame. And don't go into the because she's rich she is smart shit, remember the saying "hot chicks can get into any club". Shit, you, me or most others here could become a fucking council member.....shitttttttttttttttt!

[Yurt]

I'd say the same for J.Lib but it hasn't all the party leaders just W making sure he'll carry his disastrous policies forward if elected.

then what was your point in making this remark:


Not to mention his proposals are spot on, does Johnny have any proposals? I mean proposals that are his alone