Biden "forced" copter landing

[Trigg]

Seems Biden and Hillary have something in common. Hillary ran for cover and Biden was FORCED to land. Both stories however, have turned out to be false. :laugh2::laugh2:

Does Biden not know the difference between bullets and snow???

"
If you want to know where Al Qaeda lives, you want to know where Bin Laden is, come back to Afghanistan with me," Biden said. "Come back to the area where my helicopter was forced down, with a three-star general and three senators at 10,500 feet in the middle of those mountains. I can tell you where they are."


A snowstorm had forced them down.

No one was injured, and the Associated Press reported at the time that "the senators and their delegation returned to Bagram Air Base in a motor convoy, and left for Turkey.

"The weather closed in on us," Kerry told the AP at the time in a phone interview from Turkey. "It went pretty blind, pretty fast and we were around some pretty dangerous ridges. So the pilot exercised his judgment that we were better off putting down there, and we all agreed...We sat up there and traded stories."
Kerry joked, "We were going to send Biden out to fight the Taliban with snowballs, but we didn't have to do it…Other than getting a little cold, it was fine."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/the-story-behin.html

[red states rule]

Does Biden schedule his gaffes in advance?

[retiredman]

trigg...

are you suggesting that an aircraft cannot be forced down by weather?

[red states rule]

trigg...

are you suggesting that an aircraft cannot be forced down by weather?

The point is Biden LIED when he tried to imply it was forced down by something other then the weather

[Gaffer]

trigg...

are you suggesting that an aircraft cannot be forced down by weather?

was joey suggesting that al queda controls the weather?

[red states rule]

was joey suggesting that al queda controls the weather?

Joe was probably in the back of the plane puking and yelling for the plane to land

[retiredman]

was joey suggesting that al queda controls the weather?


he merely said his helicopter was forced down by weather in the area where Osama bin Laden is thought to be residing. He never claimed that AQ forced the aircraft down. Learn to read.

[red states rule]

he merely said his helicopter was forced down by weather in the area where Osama bin Laden is thought to be residing. He never claimed that AQ forced the aircraft down. Learn to read.

Please read his quote:

If you want to know where Al Qaeda lives, you want to know where Bin Laden is, come back to Afghanistan with me," Biden said. "Come back to the area where my helicopter was forced down, with a three-star general and three senators at 10,500 feet in the middle of those mountains. I can tell you where they are."


I am not surprised you would defnd another lie from your beloved party

[Nukeman]

he merely said his helicopter was forced down by weather in the area where Osama bin Laden is thought to be residing. He never claimed that AQ forced the aircraft down. Learn to read.

BIDEN Never mentioned the weather! He made a statement to "appear" that he was forced down by other means.

Someone else fixed his mistake about it being the weather!

Please for the love of God don't try to spin this into anything other than what it actually is.............

[red states rule]

[B][SIZE="4"]

Please for the love of God don't try to spin this into anything other than what it actually is.............

Do not hold your breath

[Gaffer]

he merely said his helicopter was forced down by weather in the area where Osama bin Laden is thought to be residing. He never claimed that AQ forced the aircraft down. Learn to read.

He did not. He said his helicopter was forced down. He said he knew where al queda was hiding in afghan, as if they are in one small area. bin laden is thought to be residing in pakistan, not afghan.

I'm sure you know how to read. You just seem to have a comprehension problem. Isn't it time to go into full spin mode and redirect the thread?

[red states rule]

He did not. He said his helicopter was forced down. He said he knew where al queda was hiding in afghan, as if they are in one small area. bin laden is thought to be residing in pakistan, not afghan.

I'm sure you know how to read. You just seem to have a comprehension problem. Isn't it time to go into full spin mode and redirect the thread?

God love ya Gaffer

Stand up! Stand up man!

[Noir]

well he didn't say it was brought down by bullets or the weather, that sentance can mean many things to many people, but you can not say he was lying over somthing that was implyed, Clinton clearly said she was under sniper fire, biden has not.

He did not lie, his chopper was forced down. surly you will not damn a man for what he has not said.

[Noir]

well he didn't say it was brought down by bullets or the weather, that sentance can mean many things to many people, but you can not say he was lying over somthing that was implyed, Clinton clearly said she was under sniper fire, biden has not.

He did not lie, his chopper was forced down. surly you will not damn a man for what he has not said.

[red states rule]

Good thing Hillary was not there. She would have had to duck those sniper snowballs along with Joe :laugh2:

[mundame]

At least Biden has much more international experience than Palin, who never even had a passport till last year.

I don't see any problem with these tall stories these political folks tell. They probably were worried about the Taliban coming after them at the time, and the story just grew like Topsy.

Hey, don't any of you tell stories that get a little better over time?

I'd a whole lot rather Biden were president than some woman from North Dogsled, Alaska, who shoots moose and shows her body off to men to win prizes.

[red states rule]

At least Biden has much more international experience than Palin, who never even had a passport till last year.

I don't see any problem with these tall stories these political folks tell. They probably were worried about the Taliban coming after them at the time, and the story just grew like Topsy.

Hey, don't any of you tell stories that get a little better over time?

I'd a whole lot rather Biden were president than some woman from North Dogsled, Alaska, who shoots moose and shows her body off to men to win prizes.

Lets look at his foreign policy experience

He opposed Pres Reagan's military buildup in the 80's

He opposed the first Gulf war

He opposed the surge

He opposed the bill where the Iranian Revolutionary Guard was called a terrorist organization.

He has a great record of being WRONG

[hjmick]

he merely said his helicopter was forced down by weather in the area where Osama bin Laden is thought to be residing. He never claimed that AQ forced the aircraft down. Learn to read.

MfM, you know I respect you and your opinions, but you're wrong on this one. Kerry said that the helicopter was forced down by the weather in an interview shortly after the incident. Biden, on the other hand, makes no such distinction in recent appearances, opting instead to omit that fact on two seperate occasions, leaving the audiences to draw their own conclusions.


well he didn't say it was brought down by bullets or the weather, that sentance can mean many things to many people, but you can not say he was lying over somthing that was implyed, Clinton clearly said she was under sniper fire, biden has not.

He did not lie, his chopper was forced down. surly you will not damn a man for what he has not said.

It's called a lie of omission, Noir. While not a flat out lie, Biden has conveniently left out a crucial fact, the weather forced the helicopter to land. He is discussing Al Qaeda, their whereabouts, and Afghanistan, a known hotbed of activity in the pursuit of the afore mentioned group and he says his helicopter "forced down." Nothing more. Now, while assumptions should be the bane of anyone's existence, his audiences are left with no other option but to assume it forced down by enemy contact of some sort. By committing a "lie of omission, Biden buys himself some wiggle room, when (or if) he's called on it, he can easily say, "I never said Al Qaeda forced the helicopter down." Until then, those who don't know better are left to their own devices.

I opined about this "lie of omission" in a thread last night:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=18004

I also praised the work of Jake Tapper, he has been doing a very good job of checking the facts of all four of the candidates.

[red states rule]

Here is another lie by Joe. Once again, the liberal media is ignoring it

September 19, 2008
Why does Joe Biden lie about a 'drunk driver' killing his 1st wife?
Thomas Lifson

It is terrible to lose family members to a traffic accident. But why on earth would a United States Senator fabricate an embellishment and claim that it was a drunk driver's fault, when the record clearly indicates it was not?

Delaware Online reports:

Since his vice presidential nomination, Joe Biden's 2007 statement that a "guy who allegedly ... drank his lunch" and drove the truck that struck and killed his first wife and daughter has gained national media traction.

Alcohol didn't play a role in the 1972 crash, investigators found. But as recently as last week, the syndicated TV show Inside Edition aired a clip from 2001 of Biden describing the accident to an audience at the University of Delaware and saying the truck driver "stopped to drink instead of drive."

The senator's statements don't jibe with news and law enforcement reports from the time, which cleared driver Curtis C. Dunn, who died in 1999, of wrongdoing.

"To see it coming from [Biden's] mouth, I just burst into tears," Dunn's daughter, Glasgow resident Pamela Hamill, 44, said Wednesday. "My dad was always there for us. Now we feel like we should be there for him because he's not here to defend himself."

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/09/why_does_joe_biden_lie_about_a.html

[mundame]

Here is another lie by Joe. Once again, the liberal media is ignoring it

September 19, 2008
Why does Joe Biden lie about a 'drunk driver' killing his 1st wife?
Thomas Lifson

It is terrible to lose family members to a traffic accident. But why on earth would a United States Senator fabricate an embellishment and claim that it was a drunk driver's fault, when the record clearly indicates it was not?

Delaware Online reports:

Since his vice presidential nomination, Joe Biden's 2007 statement that a "guy who allegedly ... drank his lunch" and drove the truck that struck and killed his first wife and daughter has gained national media traction.

Alcohol didn't play a role in the 1972 crash, investigators found.


I know a lot about this sort of thing, and what Biden does is normal.

He's been doing it all these years.

He may be right, of course: back in 1972 it's not at all clear that they could tell if the guy was drunk or not.

But in any case, I've heard a lot of family members say it was a drunk driver whether they know or not --------------- because if the other driver was guilty of something, then the wreck makes more sense and gives them something to do with their anger.

I've also heard people speculate that "someone probably ran her off the road" when no one ever knew what happened late at night on a country road and it could have been deer or HER drinking, or really anything.

People want someone to blame for such a life disaster. I'd cut him a break on this. It is well known he was terribly cut up at the time.

[red states rule]

I know a lot about this sort of thing, and what Biden does is normal.

He's been doing it all these years.

He may be right, of course: back in 1972 it's not at all clear that they could tell if the guy was drunk or not.

But in any case, I've heard a lot of family members say it was a drunk driver whether they know or not --------------- because if the other driver was guilty of something, then the wreck makes more sense and gives them something to do with their anger.

I've also heard people speculate that "someone probably ran her off the road" when no one ever knew what happened late at night on a country road and it could have been deer or HER drinking, or really anything.

People want someone to blame for such a life disaster. I'd cut him a break on this. It is well known he was terribly cut up at the time.

Yea, Dems never lie, or "emblish" their tales :laugh2:

I for one love Biden as Obama's VP choice.

[Trigg]

I don't see any problem with these tall stories these political folks tell. They probably were worried about the Taliban coming after them at the time, and the story just grew like Topsy.

Hey, don't any of you tell stories that get a little better over time?

.

Embellishing a story is one thing. He was clearly IMO trying to make it sound like things were hostile and that's why they were forced to land.

An embellishment of his story would be they had to sit for hours, were freezing and had no way of knowing if help was coming. NOT
Al Qaeda.

[red states rule]

Embellishing a story is one thing. He was clearly IMO trying to make it sound like things were hostile and that's why they were forced to land.

An embellishment of his story would be they had to sit for hours, were freezing and had no way of knowing if help was coming. NOT
Al Qaeda.

Here are more of Biden's "emblishments"

There were a number of lies in this outburst and it was not long before they too were enumerated:

• Biden got in trouble in 1965, during his first year in law school. He wrote a paper in which he lifted five pages verbatim from the Fordham Law Review. He was given an “F” in the course. He managed to avoid being bounced from law school, retook the course and earned a B.

• He claimed that he was “the only one in my class to have a full academic scholarship.” He didn’t. He did have a half scholarship that was need-based.

• He did not graduate from law school in the top half of his class. He graduated 76th out of 85 — and he was near the bottom of his class all three years.

• If he won the moot court competition — and he claimed at the time that he actually did — he did not put it on his resume, surprising for a man prone to so egregiously exaggerating his accomplishments.

• He did not win the award for being the outstanding student in the political science department at Delaware, and he graduated with one degree, not three. He had a “C” average and graduated 506th in a class of 688.

At the time, he told a reporter, “I exaggerate when I’m angry.”

http://www.suntimes.com/news/commentary/1127016,open082608.article

[Trigg]

Those aren't exagerations.........they're lies.


I love how the Dem's continuously talk about how dumb Bush is until their records are released, and we find out they got even worse grades than he did.

[red states rule]

Those aren't exagerations.........they're lies.


I love how the Dem's continuously talk about how dumb Bush is until their records are released, and we find out they got even worse grades than he did.

http://www.strangepolitics.com/images/content/122990.jpg

[Immanuel]

surly you will not damn a man for what he has not said.

Wanna bet?

Happens all the time in American politics.

Immie

[Immanuel]

I know a lot about this sort of thing, and what Biden does is normal.

He's been doing it all these years.

He may be right, of course: back in 1972 it's not at all clear that they could tell if the guy was drunk or not.

But in any case, I've heard a lot of family members say it was a drunk driver whether they know or not --------------- because if the other driver was guilty of something, then the wreck makes more sense and gives them something to do with their anger.

I've also heard people speculate that "someone probably ran her off the road" when no one ever knew what happened late at night on a country road and it could have been deer or HER drinking, or really anything.

People want someone to blame for such a life disaster. I'd cut him a break on this. It is well known he was terribly cut up at the time.

Wait a minute... if this happened 36 years ago, surely by now he knows the man was not drunk at the time of the accident or not convicted of drunk driving. For him to even insinuate such a thing seems like slander to me.

If you ask me, it is pretty darned shitty to claim someone was drunk when you know he is dead now and can not defend himself and when there was no conviction let alone trial. I realize that he makes this claim for political purposes, but that doesn't excuse this kind of thing.

Immie

[red states rule]

Wait a minute... if this happened 36 years ago, surely by now he knows the man was not drunk at the time of the accident or not convicted of drunk driving. For him to even insinuate such a thing seems like slander to me.

If you ask me, it is pretty darned shitty to claim someone was drunk when you know he is dead now and can not defend himself and when there was no conviction let alone trial. I realize that he makes this claim for political purposes, but that doesn't excuse this kind of thing.

Immie

Of course he knows. Biden is doing what Hillary did with her "sniper fire" tale - trying to pull at the heartstrings of the voters

It does not matter if the tale is true or not - just how it plays in the media and how to affects the polls

[mundame]

Wait a minute... if this happened 36 years ago, surely by now he knows the man was not drunk at the time of the accident or not convicted of drunk driving. For him to even insinuate such a thing seems like slander to me.

If you ask me, it is pretty darned shitty to claim someone was drunk when you know he is dead now and can not defend himself and when there was no conviction let alone trial. I realize that he makes this claim for political purposes, but that doesn't excuse this kind of thing.

Immie

Well, Immie, since you disagree maybe you ought to try to get some mod to kill this thread like you did last time.

No use arguing if you can talk somebody into suppressing speech in favor of whatever you want to say, right?

[retiredman]

BIDEN Never mentioned the weather! He made a statement to "appear" that he was forced down by other means.

Someone else fixed his mistake about it being the weather!

Please for the love of God don't try to spin this into anything other than what it actually is.............

you are the one spinning. Biden never said the Taliban forced him down. He said his helicopter was forced down. It was. If you think that there are things APPEARING in his words that aren't there, that is YOUR fucking problem, not mine.

[Immanuel]

Well, Immie, since you disagree maybe you ought to try to get some mod to kill this thread like you did last time.

No use arguing if you can talk somebody into suppressing speech in favor of whatever you want to say, right?

What are you talking about?

What thread did I kill?

I have never asked anyone to suppress your free speach.

And, yes, I disagree with you on this. Biden is slandering a dead man. What a great guy Biden is!! Hooray for Biden.

Immie

[red states rule]

you are the one spinning. Biden never said the Taliban forced him down. He said his helicopter was forced down. It was. If you think that there are things APPEARING in his words that aren't there, that is YOUR fucking problem, not mine.

MFM defending another lying liberal

Nothing new here at all folks

[retiredman]

MfM, you know I respect you and your opinions, but you're wrong on this one. Kerry said that the helicopter was forced down by the weather in an interview shortly after the incident. Biden, on the other hand, makes no such distinction in recent appearances, opting instead to omit that fact on two seperate occasions, leaving the audiences to draw their own conclusions.



It's called a lie of omission, Noir. While not a flat out lie, Biden has conveniently left out a crucial fact, the weather forced the helicopter to land. He is discussing Al Qaeda, their whereabouts, and Afghanistan, a known hotbed of activity in the pursuit of the afore mentioned group and he says his helicopter "forced down." Nothing more. Now, while assumptions should be the bane of anyone's existence, his audiences are left with no other option but to assume it forced down by enemy contact of some sort. By committing a "lie of omission, Biden buys himself some wiggle room, when (or if) he's called on it, he can easily say, "I never said Al Qaeda forced the helicopter down." Until then, those who don't know better are left to their own devices.

I opined about this "lie of omission" in a thread last night:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=18004

I also praised the work of Jake Tapper, he has been doing a very good job of checking the facts of all four of the candidates.

It was not a lie of omission or any other kind. It was a factual statement. You can draw any damned inference you'd care to draw. Having flown on countless military helicopters and having had my flights cut short - i.e. "forced down" - for a variety of mechanical failures, crew health issues, weather issues, whims of SOPA, etc... I found nothing wrong with his statement and did NOT assume that he had been forced down by enemy fire. Methinks some of you armchair generals have seen far too few real world military operations and far too many hollywood war movies.

[mundame]

If you think that there are things APPEARING in his words that aren't there, that is YOUR fucking problem, not mine.


Obviously it's not your problem! Why should it be your problem?

However, it is plain from an ordinary reading of the quote that Biden decorated what was a weather event by implying that al Qaeda forced down their plane.

We are talking about Joe Biden here, right?? Senior senator from Delaware, my neighboring state? Everybody knows he does exaggerations. And nobody cares.

I mean, half the time he's either putting his foot in his mouth or nobody believes a word he says, but he's colorful, and there is something to say for that in a white-haired senator. I always sort of liked Biden. At least he DOES have some sensible ideas and experience of foreign policy.

[red states rule]

It was not a lie of omission or any other kind. It was a factual statement. You can draw any damned inference you'd care to draw. Having flown on countless military helicopters and having had my flights cut short - i.e. "forced down" - for a variety of mechanical failures, crew health issues, weather issues, whims of SOPA, etc... I found nothing wrong with his statement and did NOT assume that he had been forced down by enemy fire. Methinks some of you armchair generals have seen far too few real world military operations and far too many hollywood war movies.

anf you are drunk on the Dem Kool Aid as usual

It is clear he was lying, and has been busted on it

[retiredman]

However, it is plain from an ordinary reading of the quote that Biden decorated what was a weather event by implying that al Qaeda forced down their plane.


We'll have to agree to disagree. I took no such inference in his statement. Like I said: too little real world military experience, too many hollywood movies. Not your fault. ;)

[mundame]

What are you talking about?

What thread did I kill?

I have never asked anyone to suppress your free speach.



Of course you did. You got MountainMan to trash my thread on Bristol Palin's defective so-called "fiancee." To hide it in some dark corner labeled "Pong" or "eBay Trading" or something so no one would talk about the topic anymore.

I think that is pretty incredibly low.

I have no respect for behavior like that.

[red states rule]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I took no such inference in his statement. Like I said: too little real world military experience, too many hollywood movies. Not your fault. ;)

and way to much of the Obama/Biden Kool Aid mixed with Scotch

[Immanuel]

Well, Immie, since you disagree maybe you ought to try to get some mod to kill this thread like you did last time.

No use arguing if you can talk somebody into suppressing speech in favor of whatever you want to say, right?

Are you talking about the thread you tried to stuff into the 2008 Election forum?

Hell, you are way off base on that!

1) Someone else mentioned that it was in the wrong forum.

2) I simply agreed that it did not belong in the particular forum it was in.

3) I did not call attention to the thread. I came in later and agreed with the person who complained and the mod who mentioned maybe it should be moved.

4) It was not "killed". It was simply moved by a mod not me

5) You can be pissed off at me if you like, but I did not suppress your free speah. If anything, I simply excercised mine in saying that you had misplaced it. Maybe if you had not intentionally put it where you knew it didn't belong, there would not be a problem between us. Get over it... I have. :laugh2:

Like I said, I had nothing to do with it.

Immie

[Immanuel]

Of course you did. You got MountainMan to trash my thread on Bristol Palin's defective so-called "fiancee." To hide it in some dark corner labeled "Pong" or "eBay Trading" or something so no one would talk about the topic anymore.

I think that is pretty incredibly low.

I have no respect for behavior like that.

Like I said, you are way off base.

How the hell did I get MM to trash your thread. I did not communicate with him at all. It is pretty low of you to accuse me of such a thing without proof.

Are you Joe Biden?

And another thing, why would I get that thread killed? I was actually enjoying the thread... it just was not where it belonged. Be pissed off if you want, but if I were going to "kill" one of your threads it sure wouldn't have been that one. It would have been one of your "unholy" rants for abortion. :D

Immie

[mundame]

I took no such inference in his statement.

Well, you should have, since it's quite obvious. The point is that it doesn't matter. Same as Hillary's scary trip. They were nervous, they built up the story, that's all. People do that all the time.

I think it is important to represent the truth even if it's not in your partisan best interests: some things are simply plain and clear and there is no use trying to smear them over to suit a partisan line.




Like I said: too little real world military experience, too many hollywood movies. Not your fault. ;)

Very likely, if you are talking about Senator Biden. If by "not your fault" you are saying *I* was on that helicopter, I wasn't.

[retiredman]

Well, you should have, since it's quite obvious. The point is that it doesn't matter. Same as Hillary's scary trip. They were nervous, they built up the story, that's all. People do that all the time.

I think it is important to represent the truth even if it's not in your partisan best interests: some things are simply plain and clear and there is no use trying to smear them over to suit a partisan line.





Very likely, if you are talking about Senator Biden. If by "not your fault" you are saying *I* was on that helicopter, I wasn't.

I "should" take an inference because you say I should? sorry.

By, it's not your fault, I meant that it was not your fault that your experiences around military aircraft operations are confined to movie theaters....most people's are.

[MtnBiker]

I wonder if there was enough room for Chuck to stand up in the copter? Oh what am I saying?

[emmett]

At least Biden has much more international experience than Palin, who never even had a passport till last year.

I don't see any problem with these tall stories these political folks tell. They probably were worried about the Taliban coming after them at the time, and the story just grew like Topsy.

Hey, don't any of you tell stories that get a little better over time?

I'd a whole lot rather Biden were president than some woman from North Dogsled, Alaska, who shoots moose and shows her body off to men to win prizes.



What does Palin have to do with this thread?

[Yurt]

It was not a lie of omission or any other kind. It was a factual statement. You can draw any damned inference you'd care to draw. Having flown on countless military helicopters and having had my flights cut short - i.e. "forced down" - for a variety of mechanical failures, crew health issues, weather issues, whims of SOPA, etc... I found nothing wrong with his statement and did NOT assume that he had been forced down by enemy fire. Methinks some of you armchair generals have seen far too few real world military operations and far too many hollywood war movies.

you see....even you explain why you were forced down

understanding what someone is saying does not require experience in military operations in this case.

did i ever tell you i was in the vietnam war? vietnam was a brutal war, guns going off everywhere all the time. i remember this time i shot a rifle and hit my target at 25 yards.

[retiredman]

you see....even you explain why you were forced down

understanding what someone is saying does not require experience in military operations in this case.

did i ever tell you i was in the vietnam war? vietnam was a brutal war, guns going off everywhere all the time. i remember this time i shot a rifle and hit my target at 25 yards.

misunderstanding what someone is saying obviously does not require experience in military operations either. He said he was forced down. You drew the conclusion that he was implying that he was forced down by enemy fire. I drew no such conclusion... I just assumed he was forced to land in unfriendly territory.

[Abbey Marie]

Here are more of Biden's "emblishments"

There were a number of lies in this outburst and it was not long before they too were enumerated:

• Biden got in trouble in 1965, during his first year in law school. He wrote a paper in which he lifted five pages verbatim from the Fordham Law Review. He was given an “F” in the course. He managed to avoid being bounced from law school, retook the course and earned a B.

• He claimed that he was “the only one in my class to have a full academic scholarship.” He didn’t. He did have a half scholarship that was need-based.

• He did not graduate from law school in the top half of his class. He graduated 76th out of 85 — and he was near the bottom of his class all three years.

• If he won the moot court competition — and he claimed at the time that he actually did — he did not put it on his resume, surprising for a man prone to so egregiously exaggerating his accomplishments.

• He did not win the award for being the outstanding student in the political science department at Delaware, and he graduated with one degree, not three. He had a “C” average and graduated 506th in a class of 688.

At the time, he told a reporter, “I exaggerate when I’m angry.”

http://www.suntimes.com/news/commentary/1127016,open082608.article


His grades are so poor! He sounds like an affirmative action student I knew in law school. Just couldn't handle the work required. But at least in the case of the guy I knew, his work was all his own. Eventually, he dropped out for failing.

[Mr. P]

Actually from a pilots perspective this aircraft was NOT forced down at all.

The pilot simply made the best decision based on the weather conditions....it was good judgment.

[Abbey Marie]

Actually from a pilots perspective this aircraft was NOT forced down at all.

The pilot simply made the best decision based on the weather conditions....it was good judgment.


Actually from a pilots perspective this aircraft was NOT forced down at all.

The pilot simply made the best decision based on the weather conditions....it was good judgment.

Mr. P, what you say makes sense to me. (Now we wait for the cynical "Of course it would" comment). Being "forced down" implies that the decision to land was not in his control. The story indicates the landing was a decision made by the pilot, not the result of some nefarious third party or force.

[Mr. P]

Mr. P, what you say makes sense to me. (Now we wait for the cynical "Of course it would" comment). Being "forced down" implies that the dcecision to land was not in his control. The story indicates the landing was a decision made by the pilot, not the result of some nefarious third party or force.

You are 100% correct!

[red states rule]

Mr. P, what you say makes sense to me. (Now we wait for the cynical "Of course it would" comment). Being "forced down" implies that the decision to land was not in his control. The story indicates the landing was a decision made by the pilot, not the result of some nefarious third party or force.

Abby, why is Joe whining about his trip? Does he have any idea what Hillary went through at the Bosnia airport?

[Abbey Marie]

Abby, why is Joe whining about his trip? Does he have any idea what Hillary went through at the Bosnia airport?

Oh please- they all pale in comparison to how Teddy's gin high was ruined by that dunk in the water.

[jimnyc]

you are the one spinning. Biden never said the Taliban forced him down. He said his helicopter was forced down. It was. If you think that there are things APPEARING in his words that aren't there, that is YOUR fucking problem, not mine.


If you want to know where Al Qaeda lives, you want to know where Bin Laden is, come back to Afghanistan with me," Biden said. "Come back to the area where my helicopter was forced down, with a three-star general and three senators at 10,500 feet in the middle of those mountains. I can tell you where they are."

Why would he state "you want to know where Bin Laden is, come back to Afghanistan with me," Biden said. "Come back to the area where my helicopter was forced down"?

100% without a doubt he is implying/stating that he knows where Bin Laden is based on the area he was "forced down". He clearly states he "knows where they are" based on what he experienced, and he experienced NOTHING AT ALL to backup his ludicrous statements.

Biden is a PROVEN liar and a PROVEN plagiarist, so his comments (exaggerations) come as no surprise to me.

[jimnyc]

Abby, why is Joe whining about his trip? Does he have any idea what Hillary went through at the Bosnia airport?

Hillary is a PROVEN liar too. What a lovely campaign the lia... I mean Democrats are running this year!

[red states rule]

Oh please- they all pale incomparison to how Teddy's gin high was ruined by that dunk in the water.

Here you go Abbey. This would look great in your living room

http://www.thepeoplescube.com/images/KG3/BFH_Ted_Kennedy_Aquarium.jpg

[Gaffer]

misunderstanding what someone is saying obviously does not require experience in military operations either. He said he was forced down. You drew the conclusion that he was implying that he was forced down by enemy fire. I drew no such conclusion... I just assumed he was forced to land in unfriendly territory.

Your lying and trying to find ways to attack people again. You know perfectly well what was meant by forced down. They were in a combat zone. He implied that they were forced down in enemy territory. He claimed to know exactly where al queda and bin laden could be found because that's where they went down. Once again an implication that they were forced down by enemy forces.

And don't play the mr. military man with me. I flew in more choppers in one year then you flew in in your entire career. The pilot made the call to set down because of poor visibility. He had a lot of important people on board so you can bet he didn't set down anywhere that was the least bit dangerous. A convoy picked them up. And you can bet the pilot and his crew waited there with the aircraft until it was clear enough for them to take off and get the chopper back.

Implying you did something by not telling the whole story is lying. Exaggerating something to make yourself look good is lying. There's no gray area here. Exaggerating to make a point or to be funny is one thing. To embellish yourself is just plain lying.

[retiredman]

Your lying and trying to find ways to attack people again. You know perfectly well what was meant by forced down. They were in a combat zone. He implied that they were forced down in enemy territory. He claimed to know exactly where al queda and bin laden could be found because that's where they went down. Once again an implication that they were forced down by enemy forces.

And don't play the mr. military man with me. I flew in more choppers in one year then you flew in in your entire career. The pilot made the call to set down because of poor visibility. He had a lot of important people on board so you can bet he didn't set down anywhere that was the least bit dangerous. A convoy picked them up. And you can bet the pilot and his crew waited there with the aircraft until it was clear enough for them to take off and get the chopper back.

Implying you did something by not telling the whole story is lying. Exaggerating something to make yourself look good is lying. There's no gray area here. Exaggerating to make a point or to be funny is one thing. To embellish yourself is just plain lying.


He didn't IMPLY anything. He said his chopper was forced down. It was. If you want to make the inferrence that it was forced down by enemy fire, that's all about you, tough guy...and I don't NEED to "play" Mr. military man. I volunteered and served for a quarter of a century. As I can recall, you were drafted and did one hitch?:laugh2:

[red states rule]

Your lying and trying to find ways to attack people again. You know perfectly well what was meant by forced down. They were in a combat zone. He implied that they were forced down in enemy territory. He claimed to know exactly where al queda and bin laden could be found because that's where they went down. Once again an implication that they were forced down by enemy forces.

And don't play the mr. military man with me. I flew in more choppers in one year then you flew in in your entire career. The pilot made the call to set down because of poor visibility. He had a lot of important people on board so you can bet he didn't set down anywhere that was the least bit dangerous. A convoy picked them up. And you can bet the pilot and his crew waited there with the aircraft until it was clear enough for them to take off and get the chopper back.

Implying you did something by not telling the whole story is lying. Exaggerating something to make yourself look good is lying. There's no gray area here. Exaggerating to make a point or to be funny is one thing. To embellish yourself is just plain lying.

Well gaffer, now you did it

You are clearly guilty of definiton of character. or in MFM's case, lack thereof

[Mr. P]

He didn't IMPLY anything. He said his chopper was forced down. It was. If you want to make the inferrence that it was forced down by enemy fire, that's all about you, tough guy...and I don't NEED to "play" Mr. military man. I volunteered and served for a quarter of a century. As I can recall, you were drafted and did one hitch?:laugh2:

Yes he did imply it was forced down..it wasn't..it was a voluntary and prudent choice...BEEN THERE DONE THAT!

[Little-Acorn]

Oh please- they all pale incomparison to how Teddy's gin high was ruined by that dunk in the water.

As the onetime ad said... all he had to do was improve his choice of transportation.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9c/TeddyVWad.jpg

[jimnyc]

Why would he state "you want to know where Bin Laden is, come back to Afghanistan with me," Biden said. "Come back to the area where my helicopter was forced down"?

100% without a doubt he is implying/stating that he knows where Bin Laden is based on the area he was "forced down". He clearly states he "knows where they are" based on what he experienced, and he experienced NOTHING AT ALL to backup his ludicrous statements.

Biden is a PROVEN liar and a PROVEN plagiarist, so his comments (exaggerations) come as no surprise to me.

I wonder why this post went unanswered and Gaffer received a response?

Could it be that the lying fuck, Biden, has no clue where Bin laden is? And who is "they" that he refers to, that he also states he knows where they are? AND, lastly, how does their whereabouts tie into his landing on the copter?

Maybe he just stole his story from someone else in the past?

[retiredman]

Yes he did imply it was forced down..it wasn't..it was a voluntary and prudent choice...BEEN THERE DONE THAT!

It was forced to land because of poor visibility. absolutely a volutary and prudent choice...forced down by bad weather. He never mentions enemy fire.:poke:

[retiredman]

I wonder why this post went unanswered and Gaffer received a response?

Could it be that the lying fuck, Biden, has no clue where Bin laden is? And who is "they" that he refers to, that he also states he knows where they are? AND, lastly, how does their whereabouts tie into his landing on the copter?

Maybe he just stole his story from someone else in the past?

we ALL have a clue where bin Laden is. Biden landed in the vicinity.
It is generally accepted that OBL is in the mountainous terrain on the Afghan/Pakistan border. He sure as hell isn't in Iraq, that's for damned sure!

[red states rule]

we ALL have a clue where bin Laden is. Biden landed in the vicinity.
It is generally accepted that OBL is in the mountainous terrain on the Afghan/Pakistan border. He sure as hell isn't in Iraq, that's for damned sure!

I heard OBL will at your home as a Thanksgiving dinner guest. Maybe we can get him there

[jimnyc]

we ALL have a clue where bin Laden is. Biden landed in the vicinity.
It is generally accepted that OBL is in the mountainous terrain on the Afghan/Pakistan border. He sure as hell isn't in Iraq, that's for damned sure!

He didn't state he had a clue where "they" were and Bin Laden, he stated as a fact that he knew where they were based on where his copter was "forced" down. What enemies did he face while the copter was down that lead him to make this statement of fact? I remember your stance on the Iraq WMD issues, and how you frowned upon those that made statements of fact about Iraq possessing them. Does Biden get a free pass for making statements of fact that he couldn't possibly make unless he actually faced "them" or some sort of danger other than the weather?

[jimnyc]

we ALL have a clue where bin Laden is. Biden landed in the vicinity.

For all we know OBL is right here in Westchester NY. And I have about as much proof as Biden.

"If anyone wants to know where Al Qaeda or OBL are, just ask me, I was forced to pull over while driving down I-95 last week".

Bottom line, he made extremely exaggerated statements about any danger he faced, and then stated as fact he knew where the enemy was because of where his copter was forced down.

[Gaffer]

He didn't IMPLY anything. He said his chopper was forced down. It was. If you want to make the inferrence that it was forced down by enemy fire, that's all about you, tough guy...and I don't NEED to "play" Mr. military man. I volunteered and served for a quarter of a century. As I can recall, you were drafted and did one hitch?:laugh2:

For you information smart ass I did 2 years in the army. I spent 1967 in Vietnam as a combat infantryman. My first chopper flight was into a hot LZ in the Iron Triangle. After getting out of the army I enlisted in the Air Force and was assigned to SAC. Counting reserve time I had ten years service when I got out. So you can shove the one hitch up your ass.

You were a do nothing naval officer who likes to point out his military career in order to make himself more impressionable to others. And now your a liberal hack who defends libs on all points whether they are right or wrong. And when your called on it you whine and start the name calling, even trying to use your service time to belittle people.

As I said, biden is a liar. You can twist it and defend it all you want, it won't change the facts. If you can't see what he was implying then you are naive fool.

[retiredman]

For you information smart ass I did 2 years in the army. I spent 1967 in Vietnam as a combat infantryman. My first chopper flight was into a hot LZ in the Iron Triangle. After getting out of the army I enlisted in the Air Force and was assigned to SAC. Counting reserve time I had ten years service when I got out. So you can shove the one hitch up your ass.

You were a do nothing naval officer who likes to point out his military career in order to make himself more impressionable to others. And now your a liberal hack who defends libs on all points whether they are right or wrong. And when your called on it you whine and start the name calling, even trying to use your service time to belittle people.

As I said, biden is a liar. You can twist it and defend it all you want, it won't change the facts. If you can't see what he was implying then you are naive fool.


you can draw whatever inferrence you want.... but that does not mean that the implicatin was there.

I am not trying to belittle you at all gaffer... you go after MY military service, I'll go after yours.... I'll match my 25 against your 10 any day.:laugh2:

[red states rule]

you can draw whatever inferrence you want.... but that does not mean that the implicatin was there.

I am not trying to belittle you at all gaffer... you go after MY military service, I'll go after yours.... I'll match my 25 against your 10 any day.:laugh2:

At least Gaffer does not use his service as a crutch and a shield on a daily basis

[Gaffer]

you can draw whatever inferrence you want.... but that does not mean that the implicatin was there.

I am not trying to belittle you at all gaffer... you go after MY military service, I'll go after yours.... I'll match my 25 against your 10 any day.:laugh2:

You can't belittle my service, even though you try. Like with the one hitch comment. You consistently bring up your military service as if that's going to trump someones opinion or make your point and makes you immune to attacks. Well when you do that expect to be attacked by me and many other veterans that post here.

I'm not playing match my years with you. You stayed in as long as you could to fatten your retirement check.

[AFbombloader]

he merely said his helicopter was forced down by weather in the area where Osama bin Laden is thought to be residing. He never claimed that AQ forced the aircraft down. Learn to read.

Kinda like when Gov. Palin said they put the plane on E-Bay. And everybody went nuts saying it was not sold on ebay and she lied. The issue here is the implied context right? You can't have it both ways.

AF:salute:

[Mr. P]

It was forced to land because of poor visibility. absolutely a volutary and prudent choice...forced down by bad weather. He never mentions enemy fire.:poke:

NOT forced down, MFM it was voluntary.

[Yurt]

misunderstanding what someone is saying obviously does not require experience in military operations either. He said he was forced down. You drew the conclusion that he was implying that he was forced down by enemy fire. I drew no such conclusion... I just assumed he was forced to land in unfriendly territory.

did i ever tell you i was in the vietnam war? vietnam was a brutal war, guns going off everywhere all the time. i remember this time i shot a rifle and hit my target at 25 yards.

[MtnBiker]

Does that copter being forced down have anything to do with the misunderstood implication that FDR made an announcement about the depression on TV? Hmmmm I wonder?

[MtnBiker]

So, here is a question.

How soon before Senator Biden is forced down from being the Democrat Vice Presidential canidate?

[red states rule]

So, here is a question.

How soon before Senator Biden is forced down from being the Democrat Vice Presidential canidate?

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is in town

Could it be Biden out - Little Adolf in?

[Gaffer]

So, here is a question.

How soon before Senator Biden is forced down from being the Democrat Vice Presidential canidate?

I'm guessing early Oct. He'll get critically sick and have to step down.

[red states rule]

I'm guessing early Oct. He'll get critically sick and have to step down.

Shades of McGovern

The Obama campaign will implode

[retiredman]

NOT forced down, MFM it was voluntary.

the weather forced the aircraft down. to continue to fly would have been foolhardy. "There are lots of old pilots...and there are lots of bold pilots...but there ain't too many old bold pilots." Adm A.A. Less, USN(ret)

[retiredman]

I'm guessing early Oct. He'll get critically sick and have to step down.
wanna put some money on it?:poke:

[red states rule]

wanna put some money on it?:poke:

Obama may call you and offer you the job

A lilly white version of his spiritual mentor JWright

[MtnBiker]

I'm guessing early Oct. He'll get critically sick and have to step down.


Perhaps, or they could just send him to the arctic to observe the continued seasonal ice growth.

[red states rule]

Perhaps, or they could just send him to the arctic to observe the continued seasonal ice growth.

and tell him to take up ice skating as soon as it warms up

[Gaffer]

wanna put some money on it?:poke:

No. But if I'm right I will just gloat.

[mundame]

What does Palin have to do with this thread?


The point of the thread is to trash Biden. Both Biden and Palin are candidates for vice president. I am saying that however much a blowhard Biden may be, he's harmless and at least has some intelligence and experience, but Palin has neither.

You needed this explained to you, emmett? I would think it is obvious.

[Mr. P]

the weather forced the aircraft down. to continue to fly would have been foolhardy. "There are lots of old pilots...and there are lots of bold pilots...but there ain't too many old bold pilots." Adm A.A. Less, USN(ret)

NOT forced down, MFM it was voluntary. As I said the pilot exercised good judgment but the aircraft WAS NOT FORCED down. You'll not change my mind..I have a bit over 10,000 flight hrs an 28 yrs experience in aviation..You?

[retiredman]

NOT forced down, MFM it was voluntary. As I said the pilot exercised good judgment but the aircraft WAS NOT FORCED down. You'll not change my mind..I have a bit over 10,000 flight hrs an 28 yrs experience in aviation..You?

what does "experience in aviation" mean? actual stick time or were you enlisted crew... or maybe just a baggage handler at O'Hare?

I have much less time than that...and I really don't give a rat's ass if I change your mind. I merely state fact. Continuing on was foolhardy, especially given the VIP cargo.... the weather forced the pilot to land.

[MtnBiker]

NOT forced down, MFM it was voluntary. As I said the pilot exercised good judgment but the aircraft WAS NOT FORCED down. You'll not change my mind..I have a bit over 10,000 flight hrs an 28 yrs experience in aviation..You?

Exercised good judgment, isn't that exactly how Senator Kerry discribed it? And he was there.




No one was injured, and the Associated Press reported at the time that "the senators and their delegation returned to Bagram Air Base in a motor convoy, and left for Turkey.

"The weather closed in on us," Kerry told the AP at the time in a phone interview from Turkey. "It went pretty blind, pretty fast and we were around some pretty dangerous ridges. So the pilot exercised his judgment that we were better off putting down there, and we all agreed...We sat up there and traded stories."
Kerry joked, "We were going to send Biden out to fight the Taliban with snowballs, but we didn't have to do it…Other than getting a little cold, it was fine."

[Mr. P]

what does "experience in aviation" mean? actual stick time or were you enlisted crew... or maybe just a baggage handler at O'Hare?

I have much less time than that...and I really don't give a rat's ass if I change your mind. I merely state fact. Continuing on was foolhardy, especially given the VIP cargo.... the weather forced the pilot to land.

Time in the seat, 10,000 hrs at the controls and all that stuff, time in the industry 28yrs bud,..I know what I'm talking about. You on the other hand don't.

Your "fact" is to claim this was a force landing which it wasn't. I have already stated several times the pilot used good judgment. I may well have done the same but it's NOT considered a FORCED landing. Except by those who watch to many movies.

[retiredman]

Time in the seat, 10,000 hrs at the controls and all that stuff, time in the industry 28yrs bud,..I know what I'm talking about. You on the other hand don't.

Your "fact" is to claim this was a force landing which it wasn't. I have already stated several times the pilot used good judgment. I may well have done the same but it's NOT considered a FORCED landing. Except by those who watch to many movies.

Weather forced the pilot to bring the aircraft down given his VIP cargo. The fact that you admit that you may NOT have exercised that same judgment speaks volumes.

[red states rule]

Time in the seat, 10,000 hrs at the controls and all that stuff, time in the industry 28yrs bud,..I know what I'm talking about. You on the other hand don't.

Your "fact" is to claim this was a force landing which it wasn't. I have already stated several times the pilot used good judgment. I may well have done the same but it's NOT considered a FORCED landing. Except by those who watch to many movies.

Or who are political hacks who put their party ahead of everything like truth, and country

[Mr. P]

Weather forced the pilot to bring the aircraft down given his VIP cargo. The fact that you admit that you may NOT have exercised that same judgment speaks volumes.

You IDIOT read! Ask questions. I said
I may well have done the same but it's NOT considered a FORCED landing.
There are always options, how many depends on experience and aircraft capability . I understand the position the pilot was in very well. It's aways tense but he made the correct decision IMO...but it WASN'T FORCED!

In the military world a "forced" landing is one due to mechanical failure that prevents further safe flight. This would be termed a "precautionary" landing. Pretty much the same in the civilian world.

[Yurt]

Weather forced the pilot to bring the aircraft down given his VIP cargo. The fact that you admit that you may NOT have exercised that same judgment speaks volumes.

no, the pilot voluntarily landed "there" and even Karry said WE ALL AGREED

mr. p is obviously more qualified than you in this matter given his service, so given how you rub shit in people's faces given your service and that alone qualifies you more, you aught to shut it, eh

[Kathianne]

no, the pilot voluntarily landed "there" and even Karry said WE ALL AGREED

mr. p is obviously more qualified than you in this matter given his service, so given how you rub shit in people's faces given your service and that alone qualifies you more, you aught to shut it, eh

On that we agree. I noticed one of MFM's questions was 'were you enlisted', obviously beneath the 'officer' and Annapolis grad. La de da, I do believe that MFM may well have been an office, but seems to lack the basic instincts of a gentleman.

I wonder what the 'enlisted men' under him would have to say?

[retiredman]

no, the pilot voluntarily landed "there" and even Karry said WE ALL AGREED

mr. p is obviously more qualified than you in this matter given his service, so given how you rub shit in people's faces given your service and that alone qualifies you more, you aught to shut it, eh


gosh..when have you ever shut up and acknowledged my expertise in anything? seems a tad hypocritical of you to ask me to do something YOU have never done. I stated my opinion. I continue to hold that opinion. So please, counselor.... why not refrain from telling me to "shut it"., eh?

[red states rule]

gosh..when have you ever shut up and acknowledged my expertise in anything? seems a tad hypocritical of you to ask me to do something YOU have never done. I stated my opinion. I continue to hold that opinion. So please, counselor.... why not refrain from telling me to "shut it"., eh?

Starting to get upset because you are getting ripped to pieces MFM? You are such a damn crybaby when the facts get in the way of your spin

[Yurt]

gosh..when have you ever shut up and acknowledged my expertise in anything? seems a tad hypocritical of you to ask me to do something YOU have never done. I stated my opinion. I continue to hold that opinion. So please, counselor.... why not refrain from telling me to "shut it"., eh?

when you show expertise and knowledge, i will. and the point is not about me, it is about you and how you rag on people to accept your answer because you were either there 20+ years ago or you served, as if that alone qualifies you and other people can't be right and that the internet does not have current knowledge that supercedes your 20+ year ago experience.

it is more than a tad hypocritical to not accept mr. p's answer given how you expect yours to be accepted.

your buddy,

yurt

[Yurt]

On that we agree. I noticed one of MFM's questions was 'were you enlisted', obviously beneath the 'officer' and Annapolis grad. La de da, I do believe that MFM may well have been an office, but seems to lack the basic instincts of a gentleman.

I wonder what the 'enlisted men' under him would have to say?

mfm even took it a step further in degrading mr. p's service:


or were you enlisted crew... or maybe just a baggage handler at O'Hare?

[Mr. P]

mfm even took it a step further in degrading mr. p's service:

Just a cheap shot to deflect from the subject. He's been around long enough to know I was an Officer. All military pilots have been officers for at least 40 yrs.

Off my back like water off a duck.

[Yurt]

Just a cheap shot to deflect from the subject. He's been around long enough to know I was an Officer. All military pilots have been officers for at least 40 yrs.

Off my back like water off a duck.

:cool:

[retiredman]

Just a cheap shot to deflect from the subject. He's been around long enough to know I was an Officer. All military pilots have been officers for at least 40 yrs.

Off my back like water off a duck.

I actually did not remember that you had been an officer. my apologies. I accept your superior knowledge in things having to do with aviation. I understand that, in pilot parlance, the term "forced" down might mean something different than when a layperson uses it. If you tell me that a pilot would not consider a blinding snowstorm at high altitudes that caused him to rethink flying for the safety of his passengers a situation where he was "forced down by weather", I can accept that. I know that if I were a passenger on such a helicopter flight, and the pilot communicated with me and the rest of the passengers and told us that the weather was too hazardous for us to safely fly, and that he was aborting our trip and landing at the nearest safe location, if I were to recall that incident to others, I might say that we had been "forced down". Further, I do not think that by saying that, I would be implying that enemy fire, and not weather, had done the "forcing".

[jimnyc]

I actually did not remember that you had been an officer. my apologies. I accept your superior knowledge in things having to do with aviation. I understand that, in pilot parlance, the term "forced" down might mean something different than when a layperson uses it. If you tell me that a pilot would not consider a blinding snowstorm at high altitudes that caused him to rethink flying for the safety of his passengers a situation where he was "forced down by weather", I can accept that. I know that if I were a passenger on such a helicopter flight, and the pilot communicated with me and the rest of the passengers and told us that the weather was too hazardous for us to safely fly, and that he was aborting our trip and landing at the nearest safe location, if I were to recall that incident to others, I might say that we had been "forced down". Further, I do not think that by saying that, I would be implying that enemy fire, and not weather, had done the "forcing".

And as to Biden's statements of FACT about the whereabouts of Bin Laden and others - based on where his copter was "forced" down?

[retiredman]

And as to Biden's statements of FACT about the whereabouts of Bin Laden and others - based on where his copter was "forced" down?

I think it is fairly well agreed upon that bin Laden is in the hills between Afghanistan and Pakistan...which is where Biden's copter landed.

[jimnyc]

I think it is fairly well agreed upon that bin Laden is in the hills between Afghanistan and Pakistan...which is where Biden's copter landed.

It was fairly well agreed upon throughout the ENTIRE WORLD that Iraq had WMD's, including your beloved Dems. Why don't you give the same leniency to the Bush administration? They made statements based on intel, and now Biden makes a statement based on intel. One you support, and the other you lash out at. It's odd how one spoken fact is perceived differently depending on the letter next to the politicians name.

Just as you don't care what others think about his statements and how they perceived them, neither do I. I see it as a an outright lie by him to make it sound as if he was in imminent danger from the enemy and therefore can pinpoint where they are at - as if he knows more than anyone else. This man has lied and plagiarized throughout his career and is now on the campaign trail making more mistakes than most make in a lifetime. He's not fit to be my local dog catcher let alone VP.

[retiredman]

It was fairly well agreed upon throughout the ENTIRE WORLD that Iraq had WMD's, including your beloved Dems. Why don't you give the same leniency to the Bush administration? They made statements based on intel, and now Biden makes a statement based on intel. One you support, and the other you lash out at. It's odd how one spoken fact is perceived differently depending on the letter next to the politicians name.



Biden hasn't launched a preemptive war based upon his statement. I tend to give a lot more slack to folks who use, inflated rhetoric for merely campaign purposes than I do for people who use it to launch wars that cost os 40K dead and wounded Americans and a half a trillion dollars in taxpayer treasure.

[jimnyc]

Biden hasn't launched a preemptive war based upon his statement. I tend to give a lot more slack to folks who use, inflated rhetoric for merely campaign purposes than I do for people who use it to launch wars that cost os 40K dead and wounded Americans and a half a trillion dollars in taxpayer treasure.

Glad to hear you lend support to one who lies for political gain.

[Yurt]

Biden hasn't launched a preemptive war based upon his statement. I tend to give a lot more slack to folks who use, inflated rhetoric for merely campaign purposes than I do for people who use it to launch wars that cost os 40K dead and wounded Americans and a half a trillion dollars in taxpayer treasure.

according to you that is still a falsehood, so you vote for those who tell falsehoods....

[jimnyc]

Biden hasn't launched a preemptive war based upon his statement.

Congress approved the invasion and Biden voted for it.

[retiredman]

Glad to hear you lend support to one who lies for political gain.


as if you don't.

as if you don't know that every politician since Caesar Augustus has inflated his resume.

give it a break.:laugh2:

[retiredman]

Congress approved the invasion and Biden voted for it.

and he has admitted that vote was a mistake.... more than I can say for any republican except, perhaps, Hagel.

[jimnyc]

and he has admitted that vote was a mistake.... more than I can say for any republican except, perhaps, Hagel.

He has? How about a quote from 2007:

MR. RUSSERT: I want to go back to 2002, because it’s important as to what people were saying then and what the American people were hearing. Here’s Joe Biden about Saddam Hussein: “He’s a long term threat and a short term threat to our national security.”
“We have no choice but to eliminate the threat. This is a guy who is an extreme danger to the world.”
“He must be dislodged from his weapons or dislodged from power.” You were emphatic about that.
SEN. BIDEN: That’s right, and I was correct about that. He must be, in fact—and remember the weapons we were talking about. I also said on your show, that’s part of what I said, but not all of what I meant. What I also said on your show at the time was that I did not think he had weaponized his material, but he did have. When, when the inspectors left after Saddam kicked them out, there was a cataloguing at the United Nations saying he had X tons of, X amount of, and they listed the various materials he had. The big issue, remember, on this show we talked about, was whether he had weaponized them. Remember you asked me about those flights that were taking place in southern Iraq, where—were they spraying anthrax? And, you know, what would happen? And, you know, so on and so forth. And I pointed out to you that they had not developed that capacity at all. But he did have these stockpiles everywhere.
MR. RUSSERT: Where are they?
SEN. BIDEN: Well, the point is, it turned out they didn’t, but everyone in the world thought he had them.

[jimnyc]

as if you don't.

as if you don't know that every politician since Caesar Augustus has inflated his resume.

give it a break.:laugh2:

Show me where I supported a liar, or YOU are the liar for making such an accusation.

[retiredman]

according to you that is still a falsehood, so you vote for those who tell falsehoods....


if the alternative is someone who thinks completely differently than I do about every major policy issue facing our country...yes. People occasionally open their mouths before they engage their brains.... I still believe that Biden holds the same basic vision for America that I do. McCain does not.

AND...I do not believe that he made his statement about the helicopter knowing it was false... as I have said...I do not think it was a falsehood....at worst it was an uninformed misuse of aviation jargon.

[retiredman]

Show me where I supported a liar, or YOU are the liar for making such an accusation.


do you honestly think that every politician you have ever voted for has always told the absolute truth in every instance? Has stated he would do one thing before he gets in office and then not do that thing once elected?

Get real jimmy... get real.

[jimnyc]

do you honestly think that every politician you have ever voted for has always told the absolute truth in every instance? Has stated he would do one thing before he gets in office and then not do that thing once elected?

Get real jimmy... get real.

No, I don't, but I'm not the one here defending someone who lied. And now you stated he changed his mind about his vote, which he didn't. You seem to be capable of saying and/or doing anything to absolve a Dem of any responsibility.

[retiredman]

No, I don't, but I'm not the one here defending someone who lied.


But you ARE someone who supports other politicians who you admit lie.

[jimnyc]

But you ARE someone who supports other politicians who you admit lie.

But I don't support their lies as you do, I call them to the floor on it. I don't make every excuse in the book to make it seem as if their lies are the truth and/or misunderstood.

Biden voted for the war.
Biden stated in 2007 he made the right choice.
You condemn Bush but give Biden a pass.
Biden lies about his copter escapade and his "intel knowledge" and you cover for him as if it were no big deal.

Glad to hear the Dems run for office on lies and you support that.

[retiredman]

MR. RUSSERT: And yet it's important that we put things in historical context. Senator Biden, you were on the show in August of 2002 talking about Saddam Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction. You concluded your statement by saying, "I think Saddam either has to be separated from his weapons or taken out of power." A month later you voted for a resolution authorizing just that. In hindsight, knowing everything you know now about the absence of weapons of mass destruction, was your vote a mistake?

SEN. BIDEN: It was a mistake.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10154103/

[Yurt]

if the alternative is someone who thinks completely differently than I do about every major policy issue facing our country...yes. People occasionally open their mouths before they engage their brains.... I still believe that Biden holds the same basic vision for America that I do. McCain does not.

AND...I do not believe that he made his statement about the helicopter knowing it was false... as I have said...I do not think it was a falsehood....at worst it was an uninformed misuse of aviation jargon.

is inflated rhetoric the truth or a falsehood?

[jimnyc]

MR. RUSSERT: And yet it's important that we put things in historical context. Senator Biden, you were on the show in August of 2002 talking about Saddam Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction. You concluded your statement by saying, "I think Saddam either has to be separated from his weapons or taken out of power." A month later you voted for a resolution authorizing just that. In hindsight, knowing everything you know now about the absence of weapons of mass destruction, was your vote a mistake?

SEN. BIDEN: It was a mistake.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10154103/

Nice of him to change his stance on the campaign trail after lying for 5 years to the American people. And also speaking out the other side of his face by supporting his own statements from 2002.

[retiredman]

is inflated rhetoric the truth or a falsehood?

is stating you went to Iraq the truth or a falsehood?

[red states rule]

Nice of him to change his stance on the campaign trail after lying for 5 years to the American people. And also speaking out the other side of his face by supporting his own statements from 2002.

I remember MFM posting several times he would NEVER support any Democrat who voted for the war

But now he backs the ticket.

Biden and MFM are perfect matchs. They support whatever helps them politically, and their policies are subject to change without notice

[jimnyc]

I remember MFM posting several times he would NEVER support any Democrat who voted for the war

I remember too as I discussed the Dems "factual" statements in the past with him and he stated he wouldn't support them and they were basically on his shit list. I guess Biden gets a free pass.

[red states rule]

I remember too as I discussed the Dems "factual" statements in the past with him and he stated he wouldn't support them and they were basically on his shit list. I guess Biden gets a free pass.

I wonder why he is not backing Nader then?

[Gaffer]

if the alternative is someone who thinks completely differently than I do about every major policy issue facing our country...yes. People occasionally open their mouths before they engage their brains.... I still believe that Biden holds the same basic vision for America that I do. McCain does not.

AND...I do not believe that he made his statement about the helicopter knowing it was false... as I have said...I do not think it was a falsehood....at worst it was an uninformed misuse of aviation jargon.

He has a D behind his name, therefore he has your complete and utter support, no matter what he says or does.

[retiredman]

I remember too as I discussed the Dems "factual" statements in the past with him and he stated he wouldn't support them and they were basically on his shit list. I guess Biden gets a free pass.

Biden does not get a "free pass". If you will recall, I said that I could not support a candidate for president who had voted for the war and had not repented. As I showed you from the Meet the Press transcript, Biden admitted's that his vote for the Use of Force Resolution was a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes. We all should forgive folks who make mistakes...especially those who admit the fact that they made them.

[retiredman]

He has a D behind his name, therefore he has your complete and utter support, no matter what he says or does.

If a democratic candidate says something or does something that is beyond the scope of my party's platform, he or she will, in all likelihood, not get nominated...and if he or she does, I will not vote for him or her.

As I have said over and over again...I believe that the democratic party is the best hope for America. I LOVE my country and want what is best for her. If I want to see the democratic platform enacted, it makes no sense to vote for someone who is diametrically opposed to it.

[remie]

The point of the thread is to trash Biden. Both Biden and Palin are candidates for vice president. I am saying that however much a blowhard Biden may be, he's harmless and at least has some intelligence and experience, but Palin has neither.

You needed this explained to you, emmett? I would think it is obvious.

Harmless? He's a proven liar. We know he stole someone elses work and called it his own....that makes him a thief. His school records would indicate he is not the sharpest pencil in the box either. Experience? It appears to me that Gov. Palin has at least as much experience as a peanut farmer from Georgia that was a governor before becoming president and a lying womanizing perjuror that was the governor of Arkansas before becoming president. Tell me what I am missing here.

[red states rule]

Harmless? He's a proven liar. We know he stole someone elses work and called it his own....that makes him a thief. His school records would indicate he is not the sharpest pencil in the box either. Experience? It appears to me that Gov. Palin has at least as much experience as a peanut farmer from Georgia that was a governor before becoming president and a lying womanizing perjuror that was the governor of Arkansas before becoming president. Tell me what I am missing here.



You pretty well covered it. Except Biden is a human gaffe machine who is the gift that keeps on giving

[hjmick]

Tell me what I am missing here.

The "R" next to her name.

[mundame]

The new Fox poll shows more voter comfort with Biden as prez than Palin, and that Palin's favorable ratings have dropped 7 points. Biden's favorables are higher by a point than Palin's are now.

************************************************** ***
Voters More Comfortable with Biden Stepping in as President (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,427241,00.html)

More voters would be comfortable with Joe Biden as vice president as would be comfortable with Sarah Palin in that role. Some 40 percent would be "extremely" comfortable or "very" comfortable with Biden as vice president, while 34 percent would be with Palin.

Similarly, when the question asks what if it were necessary for the vice president to step in and serve as president: 44 percent would be "extremely" or "very" comfortable with Biden as president, and 32 percent with Palin.

The big difference comes at the other end of the scale: 38 percent of voters say they would be "not at all" comfortable with Palin stepping in to serve as president — more than twice as many as say the same about Biden (17 percent).

Palin's favorable rating has dropped a bit and now stands at 47 percent, down from 54 percent two weeks ago. Nearly half of voters — 48 percent — have a favorable view of Biden, down from 51 percent (September 8-9).
*************************************************

[retiredman]

the bloom is off the rose. that is not surprising. ;)

[red states rule]

the bloom is off the rose. that is not surprising. ;)

Why have you flip floped on your pledge NOT to support any Dem who voted for the Iraq war?

Seems your promises are like Democrat positions - they are subject to change based on what is best for political gain

[Yurt]

is stating you went to Iraq the truth or a falsehood?

i'm not surprised you can't answer the simple question....you obviously think my joke and lying to make yourself look better are one and the same...

pity

but it just shows you do support liars

[jimnyc]

Biden does not get a "free pass". If you will recall, I said that I could not support a candidate for president who had voted for the war and had not repented. As I showed you from the Meet the Press transcript, Biden admitted's that his vote for the Use of Force Resolution was a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes. We all should forgive folks who make mistakes...especially those who admit the fact that they made them.

And you'll just vote for him even though he lied to the American people for 5 years and only changed his stance when it was politically convenient? Let's not forget that he still stands by his factual statements about what Iraq possessed and Iraq's danger to the world. He thinks his vote was a mistake but clearly stands by the FACTUAL words he spoke in the run-up to the invasion.

I have more respect for those who made decisions and stood by them, rather than flip flop for political reasons.

[retiredman]

And you'll just vote for him even though he lied to the American people for 5 years and only changed his stance when it was politically convenient? Let's not forget that he still stands by his factual statements about what Iraq possessed and Iraq's danger to the world. He thinks his vote was a mistake but clearly stands by the FACTUAL words he spoke in the run-up to the invasion.

I have more respect for those who made decisions and stood by them, rather than flip flop for political reasons.

and I have more respect for people who can look at what has happened in Iraq and realize that it was a mistake. I don't think he lied to anyone for five years about Iraq. I think he realized he had been wrong about invading Iraq. Wise man, in my estimation.

[jimnyc]

and I have more respect for people who can look at what has happened in Iraq and realize that it was a mistake. I don't think he lied to anyone for five years about Iraq. I think he realized he had been wrong about invading Iraq. Wise man, in my estimation.

So he makes statements of fact about what Saddam possessed, and stands by his statements 6 years later, and that's ok with you simply because he now states he regrets his vote in the senate. But you're happy to proclaim the Bush administration liars?

Either Biden spoke the truth as the administration did, or he lied all these years. Funny how things look to you depending on - (D) (R)

[Yurt]

Biden hasn't launched a preemptive war based upon his statement. I tend to give a lot more slack to folks who use, inflated rhetoric for merely campaign purposes than I do for people who use it to launch wars that cost os 40K dead and wounded Americans and a half a trillion dollars in taxpayer treasure.

is inflated rhetoric the truth?

[jimnyc]

is inflated rhetoric the truth?

Dude, give it up. Biden is a proven liar no matter how thick the blinders are that MFM wears.

[Yurt]

Dude, give it up. Biden is a proven liar no matter how thick the blinders are that MFM wears.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee62/nafishasan60/NoRetreatNoSurrender1986.jpg


:laugh2:


it also goes to whether mfm supports those who tell falsehoods

[retiredman]

So he makes statements of fact about what Saddam possessed, and stands by his statements 6 years later, and that's ok with you simply because he now states he regrets his vote in the senate. But you're happy to proclaim the Bush administration liars?

Either Biden spoke the truth as the administration did, or he lied all these years. Funny how things look to you depending on - (D) (R)

Old news... I believe that the Bush administration lied about the threat of WMD's in order to take us to war. Biden may have voted for it, but he was certainly no cheerleader for immediate invasion. And I am not voting FOR Biden...I am voting for Obama. Biden is on the ticket. I am OK with that.

And Biden, unlike Bush, has had the balls to admit he made a mistake.

[retiredman]

is inflated rhetoric the truth?

did you lie about going to Iraq?

[Yurt]

did you lie about going to Iraq?

irrelevent regarding YOU

why is it you can't answer a simple question?

[jimnyc]

And Biden, unlike Bush, has had the balls to admit he made a mistake.

Biden stands by his statements to this day that Saddam was an international threat that possessed weapons that were actually catalogued and just states he doesn't know what happened to them.

So, since he STILL states Iraq had WMD's when we invaded, is he still lying?

[retiredman]

Biden stands by his statements to this day that Saddam was an international threat that possessed weapons that were actually catalogued and just states he doesn't know what happened to them.

So, since he STILL states Iraq had WMD's when we invaded, is he still lying?


I think he was just mistaken.

[MtnBiker]

It is obvious that Senator Biden believes in the controllable weather conspiracy as a weapon and that Bin Laden is using it to force down US helicopters. How else would a snow storm give Senator Biden the location of Bin Laden and his gang? It wasn't from rockets or small arm fire, it was the weather. And Senator Biden made a conection with the helicopter going down and where Al Qaeda lives.

[jimnyc]

I think he was just mistaken.

And yet he still stands by these mistakes. It's ok for him though because he's a Dem, but any Republican with the same history on the subject is a liar. :rolleyes:

[jimnyc]

It is obvious that Senator Biden believes in the controllable weather conspiracy as a weapon and that Bin Laden is using it to force down US helicopters. How else would a snow storm give Senator Biden the location of Bin Laden and his gang? It wasn't from rockets or small arm fire, it was the weather. And Senator Biden made a conection with the helicopter going down and where Al Qaeda lives.

Biden is a proven liar and Obama is a proven racist. Other peoples blinders don't affect my vision.

[retiredman]

And yet he still stands by these mistakes. It's ok for him though because he's a Dem, but any Republican with the same history on the subject is a liar. :rolleyes:

no...only those who pushed the nation into war on the basis of those lies. Biden voted for that war but has since admitted that that vote was a mistake. I give him credit for that.

Bush gets no credit because he STILL thinks that invading/conquering/occupying Iraq was a GOOD idea.

and YOU get no credit for having your nose so far up Bush's ass that you agree with him.:lol:

[jimnyc]

no...only those who pushed the nation into war on the basis of those lies. Biden voted for that war but has since admitted that that vote was a mistake. I give him credit for that.

Bush gets no credit because he STILL thinks that invading/conquering/occupying Iraq was a GOOD idea.

and YOU get no credit for having your nose so far up Bush's ass that you agree with him.:lol:

Nothing you said changes the FACT that Biden made statements of fact about Iraq and WMD's and still states they possessed them when we invaded to this day.

And, you want to go personal again with me fake preacher boy? It's QUITE obvious that you support Obama/Biden because they are proven liars like yourself. Do they lie about military experience like you? Do they proclaim to be preachers and yet talk like scum of the earth outside of church?

I don't need your credit. Credit from those who habitually lie means nothing to me.

[retiredman]

Nothing you said changes the FACT that Biden made statements of fact about Iraq and WMD's and still states they possessed them when we invaded to this day.

And, you want to go personal again with me fake preacher boy? It's QUITE obvious that you support Obama/Biden because they are proven liars like yourself. Do they lie about military experience like you? Do they proclaim to be preachers and yet talk like scum of the earth outside of church?

I don't need your credit. Credit from those who habitually lie means nothing to me.

I won't get into a pissing contest with you Jimmy. I like you. I have prayed for your mother. I forgive you for your attacks against me. move on now.

I am not a fake anymore than you are faking about your mother's illness.

[jimnyc]

I won't get into a pissing contest with you Jimmy. I like you. I have prayed for your mother. I forgive you for your attacks against me. move on now.

I am not a fake anymore than you are faking about your mother's illness.

The only difference is that I'm willing to share EVERYTHING on this board to show I'm not a proven liar. I trust no less than 20 people on this board that I will happily give my Mom's hospital # to in order to speak to her for verification.

Are you willing to give as many your congregations info and military info so that we can verify?

If you don't want to get into a pissing match with me, then stop aiming your piss in my direction whenever you don't like my opinions about politics.

[retiredman]

The only difference is that I'm willing to share EVERYTHING on this board to show I'm not a proven liar. I trust no less than 20 people on this board that I will happily give my Mom's hospital # to in order to speak to her for verification.

Are you willing to give as many your congregations info and military info so that we can verify?

If you don't want to get into a pissing match with me, then stop aiming your piss in my direction whenever you don't like my opinions about politics.


I pray for you mom. I will continue to do so.

[jimnyc]

I pray for you mom. I will continue to do so.

Forgive me if I think you're a patronizing liar but your long history of lying and attacking people makes your attempts of being "nice" to people seem a tad empty.

[Immanuel]

The only difference is that I'm willing to share EVERYTHING on this board to show I'm not a proven liar. I trust no less than 20 people on this board that I will happily give my Mom's hospital # to in order to speak to her for verification.

Are you willing to give as many your congregations info and military info so that we can verify?


I'm sorry, but that is just plain wrong to ask him to do that. It would be terribly wrong if he even considered giving that kind of information out without those people's permission.

If my pastor gave out that kind of info, I'd find another church before Sunday.

Immie

[jimnyc]

I'm sorry, but that is just plain wrong to ask him to do that. It would be terribly wrong if he even considered giving that kind of information out without those people's permission.

If my pastor gave out that kind of info, I'd find another church before Sunday.

Immie

He would need permission to confirm where he supposedly preaches at? That's odd. Well then maybe he shouldn't insinuate I lied about my Mom's health.

[retiredman]

He would need permission to confirm where he supposedly preaches at? That's odd. Well then maybe he shouldn't insinuate I lied about my Mom's health.
I neve insinuated any such thing. I belive your mom is sick and I have prayed for her daily.

[retiredman]

Forgive me if I think you're a patronizing liar but your long history of lying and attacking people makes your attempts of being "nice" to people seem a tad empty.


and that wipes out our cordial PM exchanges about my pastorate? Nonetheless, I forgive you and continue to hold your mom in my prayers.

[jimnyc]

I neve insinuated any such thing. I belive your mom is sick and I have prayed for her daily.

I'd rather you don't even speak of my Mom unless it's in a thread where I mention it. To use her as a deflection during a debate/argument shows the amount of class you possess.

[jimnyc]

and that wipes out our cordial PM exchanges about my pastorate? Nonetheless, I forgive you and continue to hold your mom in my prayers.

Last warning, I've asked politely...

[Immanuel]

He would need permission to confirm where he supposedly preaches at? That's odd. Well then maybe he shouldn't insinuate I lied about my Mom's health.

The way that I read your request was that he provide names (specifically "no less than 20") of members of his congregation on a public forum in order to prove who he is. Now tell me, would you want your pastor posting your name (and of course that would also include address and phone number) so someone else could verify he was your pastor?

Then again, maybe I misunderstood you and on re-reading it, I think I did. Were you asking him to give specific information about himself to no less than 20 individuals on this site so that they could confirm who he was?

I am not sure, but I think there is only one person on this board who even likes him. :laugh2: Now, let's not go naming names as to who that might be... okay?

Immie

[retiredman]

Last warning, I've asked politely...

granted. I am trying to be polite.

have you been drinking?

[jimnyc]

The way that I read your request was that he provide names (specifically "no less than 20") of members of his congregation on a public forum in order to prove who he is. Now tell me, would you want your pastor posting your name (and of course that would also include address and phone number) so someone else could verify he was your pastor?

Then again, maybe I misunderstood you and on re-reading it, I think I did. Were you asking him to give specific information about himself to no less than 20 individuals on this site so that they could confirm who he was?

I am not sure, but I think there is only one person on this board who even likes him. :laugh2: Now, let's not go naming names as to who that might be... okay?

Immie

I wasn't asking anything more than him confirming where he preaches - not mentioning anyone else at all but himself and the church. I couldn't care less for any names from those who worship at his church. My point was that he insinuated that I lied about my Mom's health and I was willing to be the one to give her hospital number to 20 people for verification. He need only provide proof that he actually preaches. I would never expect him to reveal information about those who worship there.

[jimnyc]

granted. I am trying to be polite.

have you been drinking?

So now you think I'm drinking because I've asked you politely to stop injecting my Mom into these political threads? If I were drunk I would likely post more vulgar stuff, you know, the stuff YOU generally post to others when you are angry.

[Immanuel]

I wasn't asking anything more than him confirming where he preaches - not mentioning anyone else at all but himself and the church. I couldn't care less for any names from those who worship at his church. My point was that he insinuated that I lied about my Mom's health and I was willing to be the one to give her hospital number to 20 people for verification. He need only provide proof that he actually preaches. I would never expect him to reveal information about those who worship there.

Like I said, I misunderstood what you were asking at first.

My apologies.

Immie

[retiredman]

I wasn't asking anything more than him confirming where he preaches - not mentioning anyone else at all but himself and the church. I couldn't care less for any names from those who worship at his church. My point was that he insinuated that I lied about my Mom's health and I was willing to be the one to give her hospital number to 20 people for verification. He need only provide proof that he actually preaches. I would never expect him to reveal information about those who worship there.
again.. I NEVER insinuated that you were lying about your mother's health. I have been more than supportive on the thread you started about her, and I have prayed for her. I am not about to reveal information about where I preach to anyone on the internet.

[jimnyc]

again.. I NEVER insinuated that you were lying about your mother's health. I have been more than supportive on the thread you started about her, and I have prayed for her. I am not about to reveal information about where I preach to anyone on the internet.

Then why even use my Mom in this thread at all, even as an example, other than to throw a low blow?

I'm bailing out of posting once again. In case anyone has noticed, I took quite a hiatus from getting involved in political threads for this very reason. Some get angry when their party is picked apart and turn personal because of their anger. Having a heated debate about politics is good fun, but "some" seem to always resort to attacks when their arguments get squashed.

I'll see ya'll in the chat sections where those who generally go personal very rarely post.

Signing out...

[retiredman]

Then why even use my Mom in this thread at all, even as an example, other than to throw a low blow?

I'm bailing out of posting once again. In case anyone has noticed, I took quite a hiatus from getting involved in political threads for this very reason. Some get angry when their party is picked apart and turn personal because of their anger. Having a heated debate about politics is good fun, but "some" seem to always resort to attacks when their arguments get squashed.

I'll see ya'll in the chat sections where those who generally go personal very rarely post.

Signing out...
it was never a low blow...it was merely a reminder that I have been on your side even though it would appear that such allegiance means nothing to you.

[Yurt]

Then why even use my Mom in this thread at all, even as an example, other than to throw a low blow?

I'm bailing out of posting once again. In case anyone has noticed, I took quite a hiatus from getting involved in political threads for this very reason. Some get angry when their party is picked apart and turn personal because of their anger. Having a heated debate about politics is good fun, but "some" seem to always resort to attacks when their arguments get squashed.

I'll see ya'll in the chat sections where those who generally go personal very rarely post.

Signing out...

too bad, miss your voice, you have good points

[Yurt]

it was never a low blow...it was merely a reminder that I have been on your side even though it would appear that such allegiance means nothing to you.

i have not personally got into with you for a while, so, chill out.

don't you think, seriously go back and read his post and then yours, that it was a low blow.

you may not have thought it the same way it came out, i'll grant you. but honestly, go back and look, you two were heavily discussing things and then you throw his mom in the picture. no.....hello....nothing. maybe you are socially dense.

[retiredman]

i have not personally got into with you for a while, so, chill out.

don't you think, seriously go back and read his post and then yours, that it was a low blow.

you may not have thought it the same way it came out, i'll grant you. but honestly, go back and look, you two were heavily discussing things and then you throw his mom in the picture. no.....hello....nothing. maybe you are socially dense.


chill out? certainly. I disagree with your assessment. He came at me, and I responded by a completely non-argumentative response. I am trying not to antagonize anyone. I prayed for his mom and he attacked me. I merely pointed that out and suggested that I would continue to hold his mother in my prayers. I will. And I will continue to try to avoid being dragged into the personal attack style of posting. You can do what you will.

[jimnyc]

too bad, miss your voice, you have good points

I changed my mind. I had a good time yesterday using simple logic to make the Dems, and more specifically, Biden, to be the fools they are. I'll continue to post up here but will just ignore MFM's posts. As an admin I can't literally put him on ignore but I refuse to directly respond to someone like him anymore.

It's reminiscent of when he would get angry with RSR and then immediately bring up his cancer and wish him a long life. He gets angry with me and then brings up my Mom's ailing health. It doesn't take a genius to see what he's aiming for and his lame explanations once again fall empty due to his own posting history.

So let's get back to talking about the liar who claims his copter was "forced" down but NEVER mentions the weather but goes out of his way to mention he knows where the enemy is because of his experience in the "force down". Maybe FDR told him to say this during one of his television appearances during the depression?

[Kathianne]

I changed my mind. I had a good time yesterday using simple logic to make the Dems, and more specifically, Biden, to be the fools they are. I'll continue to post up here but will just ignore MFM's posts. As an admin I can't literally put him on ignore but I refuse to directly respond to someone like him anymore.

It's reminiscent of when he would get angry with RSR and then immediately bring up his cancer and wish him a long life. He gets angry with me and then brings up my Mom's ailing health. It doesn't take a genius to see what he's aiming for and his lame explanations once again fall empty due to his own posting history.

So let's get back to talking about the liar who claims his copter was "forced" down but NEVER mentions the weather but goes out of his way to mention he knows where the enemy is because of his experience in the "force down". Maybe FDR told him to say this during one of his television appearances during the depression?

I'm glad you changed your mind, I really enjoyed reading last evening and this morning. It's good to have some logic back on the board, besides someone else with a bit of a temper. ;)

[red states rule]

I changed my mind. I had a good time yesterday using simple logic to make the Dems, and more specifically, Biden, to be the fools they are. I'll continue to post up here but will just ignore MFM's posts. As an admin I can't literally put him on ignore but I refuse to directly respond to someone like him anymore.

It's reminiscent of when he would get angry with RSR and then immediately bring up his cancer and wish him a long life. He gets angry with me and then brings up my Mom's ailing health. It doesn't take a genius to see what he's aiming for and his lame explanations once again fall empty due to his own posting history.

So let's get back to talking about the liar who claims his copter was "forced" down but NEVER mentions the weather but goes out of his way to mention he knows where the enemy is because of his experience in the "force down". Maybe FDR told him to say this during one of his television appearances during the depression?


Glad to see you decided not to leave Jim.

You are well aware how MFM debates, you know what he will say beofre he says it - that is why he can never lay a glove on you and goes into his usual attack mode

[MtnBiker]

For those that believe the helicopter that was "forced" down carrying Senator Biden, exactly how is it that Senator Biden can know where Al Qaeda lives and where Bin Laden is based on a weather event?

[retiredman]

For those that believe the helicopter that was "forced" down carrying Senator Biden, exactly how is it that Senator Biden can know where Al Qaeda lives and where Bin Laden is based on a weather event?


I don't think that he stated that his thoughts about the location of bin Laden were based upon a weather event. His helicopter landed doe to bad weather in a remote area on the Afghan/Pakistan border which is where most folks assume that OBL still resides.

[Immanuel]

For those that believe the helicopter that was "forced" down carrying Senator Biden, exactly how is it that Senator Biden can know where Al Qaeda lives and where Bin Laden is based on a weather event?

I imagine that bin Ladin and his friends, came out of their caves and invited the Senators in for :coffee:. How else would he know where bin Ladin was holed up? It only makes sense... right?

Immie

[MtnBiker]

If you want to know where Al Qaeda lives, you want to know where Bin Laden is, come back to Afghanistan with me," Biden said. "Come back to the area where my helicopter was forced down, with a three-star general and three senators at 10,500 feet in the middle of those mountains. I can tell you where they are."

It was a weather event that led to the helicopter being "forced" down. Senator Biden made a connection with the helicopter being "forced" down and the location of Al Qaeda. He said he can tell us where they are. Certainly a helicopter carring US Senators and a 3 Star General were not out looking for Al Qaeda and Bin Laden, but Senator Binden stated he can tell us where they are because his helicopter was "forced" down, again because of weather. The location of the helicopter being "forced" down would be a specific area. The border between Afghanistan and Pakistan is not a specific area and is hundreds of miles long, the mountain ridges are huge, but Senator Biden can take us to the "area" and tell us where they are. Amazing that Senator Biden can locate terrorists based on a weather event.

[retiredman]

I understood what he was saying. Clearly, you have no desire to. I suggest you vote for the other guys in that case.:salute:

[Silver]

I understood what he was saying. Clearly, you have no desire to. I suggest you vote for the other guys in that case.:salute:

Thats wonderful...see if you can understand what Biden is saying below...

ABC'S George Stephanopoulos asking Biden during a debate while he was still contesting Obama for the nomination: "You were asked, 'Is he ready?' You said, 'I think he can be ready but right now, I don't believe he is. The presidency is not something that lends itself to on-the-job training.'
--------------"I think that I stand by the statement," Biden

“The more people learn about them (Obama and Hillary) and how they handle the pressure, the more their support will evaporate.”....Joe Biden

I’m confident that Iowans know what I know: our problems will require experience and leadership from Day One. Empty slogans will be no match for proven action on caucus night.”
“When this campaign is over, political slogans like ‘experience’ and ‘change’ will mean absolutely nothing.........Joe Biden

:clap:

[MtnBiker]

As bad as people want to believe and make excuses for Senator Biden, his claim that he knows where Al Qaeda lives and where Bin Laden is, simply is not true. Despite any helicopter ride and snow storm Binden can't locate Al Qaeda and Bin Laden any better than any partisan hack on an internet messageboard. To say Al Qaeda and Bin Laden are in remote areas of the Afghanistan/Paskistan boarder is as meaningfull as saying the sky is blue. Now there is something to vote for. Wow!

[Yurt]

psssssssst

i know where obl and aq are hiding..............earth


wow, i know as much as biden and i didn't even need to land in afganistan to know that....

question, if (as mfm claims) everybody knows that obl/aq are hiding in the mountanious border area.....what then is the significance of biden claiming that his helicopter landing gives him any special knowledge? :laugh2:

[Abbey Marie]

Thats wonderful...see if you can understand what Biden is saying below...

ABC'S George Stephanopoulos asking Biden during a debate while he was still contesting Obama for the nomination: "You were asked, 'Is he ready?' You said, 'I think he can be ready but right now, I don't believe he is. The presidency is not something that lends itself to on-the-job training.'
--------------"I think that I stand by the statement," Biden

“The more people learn about them (Obama and Hillary) and how they handle the pressure, the more their support will evaporate.”....Joe Biden

I’m confident that Iowans know what I know: our problems will require experience and leadership from Day One. Empty slogans will be no match for proven action on caucus night.”
“When this campaign is over, political slogans like ‘experience’ and ‘change’ will mean absolutely nothing.........Joe Biden

:clap:

It seems that ol' Joe is much smarter than I thought.

[retiredman]

Thats wonderful...see if you can understand what Biden is saying below...

ABC'S George Stephanopoulos asking Biden during a debate while he was still contesting Obama for the nomination: "You were asked, 'Is he ready?' You said, 'I think he can be ready but right now, I don't believe he is. The presidency is not something that lends itself to on-the-job training.'
--------------"I think that I stand by the statement," Biden

“The more people learn about them (Obama and Hillary) and how they handle the pressure, the more their support will evaporate.”....Joe Biden

I’m confident that Iowans know what I know: our problems will require experience and leadership from Day One. Empty slogans will be no match for proven action on caucus night.”
“When this campaign is over, political slogans like ‘experience’ and ‘change’ will mean absolutely nothing.........Joe Biden

:clap:

sounds like a guy campaigning. I think I'll vote for him AND his running mate.

[Trigg]

sounds like a guy campaigning. I think I'll vote for him AND his running mate.

What??????

He stated Bambam wasn't ready and this isn't a position for "on the job training".

Do you REALLY think Obama is ready?????

In case your wondering I didn't ask "is he better than McCain". I don't want your oppinion on that, I already know you like him better than McCain. My question is DO YOU THINK HE IS READY

[MtnBiker]

question, if (as mfm claims) everybody knows that obl/aq are hiding in the mountanious border area.....what then is the significance of biden claiming that his helicopter landing gives him any special knowledge?

No kidding, it is like saying a whole lot of nothing.

[Yurt]

sounds like a guy campaigning. I think I'll vote for him AND his running mate.

so did biden tell the truth or was he lying when he said obama does not have the experience to lead this country and be president?


No kidding, it is like saying a whole lot of nothing.

that is bimbo biden for you....

[retiredman]

What??????

He stated Bambam wasn't ready and this isn't a position for "on the job training".

Do you REALLY think Obama is ready?????

In case your wondering I didn't ask "is he better than McCain". I don't want your oppinion on that, I already know you like him better than McCain. My question is DO YOU THINK HE IS READY


I DO think he is ready. I think he is wise and thoughtful and mature and shows great judgment. I think he will do a fine job in the white house. I think he has already shown, by his VP pick, that he knows how to surround himself with smart people.

[Mr. P]

I DO think he is ready. I think he is wise and thoughtful and mature and shows great judgment. I think he will do a fine job in the white house. I think he has already shown, by his VP pick, that he knows how to surround himself with smart people.

:laugh2:

ahhhhh several of the folks he has associated with for years says different.

[MtnBiker]

US Navy Taps Senator Biden For Assistance

After revealing his ability to locate enemy locations, the US Navy asked Senator Biden to assist in locating Russian and Chinese submarines. After some effort and spending time aboard naval ships Senator Binden was able to concluded the locations of Russian and Chinese submarines, in a report to the navy he stated that the submarines were in the water.

We recently questioned an Obama supporter about this new information, the supporter with a glazed over expression answered, "the Senator's insightfullness brings yet another unique ability to the Obama ticket and I cannot wait until november to vote for them".







resume thread

[Abbey Marie]

I DO think he is ready. I think he is wise and thoughtful and mature and shows great judgment. I think he will do a fine job in the white house. I think he has already shown, by his VP pick, that he knows how to surround himself with smart people.

Biden smart? :laugh2:

[retiredman]

Biden smart? :laugh2:

yeah:laugh2:

he is:laugh2:

he's FORGOTTEN more about foreign policy than you'll ever know:laugh2:

oh yeah... did I mention:laugh2:

:laugh2:

[retiredman]

:laugh2:

ahhhhh several of the folks he has associated with for years says different.



did you notice where I used the words, "I THINK"????


Wow...some people have a different opinion. really?? Now that's a surprise!:laugh2:

[Abbey Marie]

yeah:laugh2:

he is:laugh2:

he's FORGOTTEN more about foreign policy than you'll ever know:laugh2:

oh yeah... did I mention:laugh2:

:laugh2:

Memorizing does not equal smart. Oh wait, he couldn't even do that well, and barely made it out of law school. Imagine having to cheat and plagiarize, and still almost not graduate? :laugh2:

[retiredman]

Memorizing does not equal smart. Oh wait, he couldn't even do that well, and barely made it out of law school. Imagine having to cheat and plagiarize, and still almost not graduate? :laugh2:


whoever said he memorized stuff? His foreign policy expertise is well recognised by most folks... at least those that aren't kopolaid soaked partisan hacks, that is.

[Mr. P]

did you notice where I used the words, "I THINK"????


Wow...some people have a different opinion. really?? Now that's a surprise!:laugh2:

I did ..it shows ya don't.

[retiredman]

I did ..it shows ya don't.

nonsensical and sophomoric. why am I not surprised?

[Mr. P]

nonsensical and sophomoric. why am I not surprised?

Cuz yer unaware of reality. Blinded. Can't see the forest for the trees. Maybe?

[Trigg]

I DO think he is ready. I think he is wise and thoughtful and mature and shows great judgment. I think he will do a fine job in the white house. I think he has already shown, by his VP pick, that he knows how to surround himself with smart people.

Bush was going to surround himself with smart people also, see how well that worked out???

A few points through.

1. From his school records Biden isn't that smart
2. Obama's good judgment has included praying at a racist church for 20 years.
3. Obama's good judgment also included having said racist as a spiritual adviser, at least until those tapes came out.

But hey, I'm glad you think he's ready. Even if his running mate doesn't.....or didn't until recently when he was picked as the VP.:laugh2:

[Abbey Marie]

whoever said he memorized stuff? His foreign policy expertise is well recognised by most folks... at least those that aren't kopolaid soaked partisan hacks, that is.

The guy is about as dumb as a door nail. And less honest. How nice that someone like that can succeed in you rparty being backed by kool-aid soaked partisan hacks.

But as I've said, his honest opinions of Obama's total unreadiness to lead, did give him a boost in my eyes.

[retiredman]

The guy is about as dumb as a door nail. And less honest. How nice that someone like that can succeed in you rparty being backed by kool-aid soaked partisan hacks.

But as I've said, his honest opinions of Obama's total unreadiness to lead, did give him a boost in my eyes.


he's got my vote...and, if today's polls are any indication, the votes of an increasing number of Americans. McCain has been like Ricochet Rabbit on this economic thing... sound fundamentals one week, dire straits the next week, I'm gonna go play presidential leader for this bailout bill (ooops!) I am not gonna debate until there is a deal done (ooop!) and it has taken its toll. Obama has been steady and on message and it's working!:poke:

[Kathianne]

...l. Obama has been steady and on message and it's working!:poke:
Yep, and what is his opinion on 'the plan'? Ooops!

Maybe not, the safest thing to be leader of the sheep is to sound softly and say nothing. We're all just to wait for his 'secret plan.'

[Mr. P]

he's got my vote...and, if today's polls are any indication, the votes of an increasing number of Americans. McCain has been like Ricochet Rabbit on this economic thing... sound fundamentals one week, dire straits the next week, I'm gonna go play presidential leader for this bailout bill (ooops!) I am not gonna debate until there is a deal done (ooop!) and it has taken its toll. Obama has been steady and on message and it's working!:poke:

Yep...which have been: screw my duty in Washington I'm campaigning! Aren't I great?

[Abbey Marie]

Yep...which have been: screw my duty in Washington I'm campaigning! Aren't I great?

What can we expect from a guy who is being compared unfavorably with the other party's vice presidential candidate? He's running scared.

[retiredman]

Bush was going to surround himself with smart people also, see how well that worked out???

A few points through.

1. From his school records Biden isn't that smart
2. Obama's good judgment has included praying at a racist church for 20 years.
3. Obama's good judgment also included having said racist as a spiritual adviser, at least until those tapes came out.

But hey, I'm glad you think he's ready. Even if his running mate doesn't.....or didn't until recently when he was picked as the VP.:laugh2:

you can smear the good works of Trinity UCC because of a few 30 second sound bites, but I ain't buyin' it. I personally think that Trinity UCC is a great church that has done the Lord's work in and around Chicago for decades. The president of the United Church of Christ nationwide has nothing but praise for that church.

How do you feel about the "speaking in tongues", "ready for rapture", "witch hunting" pastor who has been Sarah's spiritual advisor, by the way? :laugh2:

McCain finished at the bottom of his class at Annapolis.
Obama was editor of the Law Review at Harvard.

[retiredman]

Yep...which have been: screw my duty in Washington I'm campaigning! Aren't I great?

He is his party's nominee for president. He was sitting at the desk in the white house yesterday right along with McCain.... doing his job...

and kicking Johnnie's ass in the polls!:laugh2:

[Mr. P]

What can we expect from a guy who is being compared unfavorably with the other party's vice presidential candidate? He's running scared.

Maybe he thinks he has some entitlement thing going on? Pretty sure his wife does.

[retiredman]

What can we expect from a guy who is being compared unfavorably with the other party's vice presidential candidate? He's running scared.


what are YOU smokin'? :laugh2:

Obama has been steady and on message and kicking McCain's ass throughout this mess. I can't wait for McCain to lose his temper tonight!:laugh2:

[Mr. P]

He is his party's nominee for president. He was sitting at the desk in the white house yesterday right along with McCain.... doing his job...

and kicking Johnnie's ass in the polls!:laugh2:

Reality check..in Nov. Maybe even tonight. :poke:

[retiredman]

Reality check..in Nov. Maybe even tonight. :poke:


and what will you be saying if Obama's lead continues to grow AFTER tonight?

[Kathianne]

and what will you be saying if Obama's lead continues to grow AFTER tonight?

Just like you the past 3 weeks, let's just have McCain withdraw and have a voice vote for Obama. :rolleyes:

[retiredman]

Just like you the past 3 weeks, let's just have McCain withdraw and have a voice vote for Obama. :rolleyes:

Oh no... I think we need the vote. I think Obama needs the mandate to really move forward on all those programs that will just irk the shit out of all you republicans!:poke:

[Kathianne]

Oh no... I think we need the vote. I think Obama needs the mandate to really move forward on all those programs that will just irk the shit out of all you republicans!:poke:

He will not have a 'mandate', whatever the vote outcome, you know it and so does everyone else.

[Mr. P]

and what will you be saying if Obama's lead continues to grow AFTER tonight?

Nothing..I'll wait till Nov with everyone else and hope the MORONS that think he is GOD come to know the truth.

EDIT: and I'll work to inform them of such.

[retiredman]

He will not have a 'mandate', whatever the vote outcome, you know it and so does everyone else.


He'll have every bit the mandate that Bush claimed when he won.

And... like Bush, he'll have both houses of congress on HIS side....but unlike Bush, he'll get stuff done!

[Kathianne]

He'll have every bit the mandate that Bush claimed when he won.

And... like Bush, he'll have both houses of congress on HIS side....but unlike Bush, he'll get stuff done!

You're dreaming. Whoever becomes President will not be able to get much done. This 'crisis' is not going away anytime soon and the fallout is going to be unreal. Even if Obama sees himself as the new FDR, he will not find the country warm to his ideas.

[retiredman]

You're dreaming. Whoever becomes President will not be able to get much done. This 'crisis' is not going away anytime soon and the fallout is going to be unreal. Even if Obama sees himself as the new FDR, he will not find the country warm to his ideas.

that's your opinion.... and you're welcome to it!

[Mr. P]

Oh no... I think we need the vote. I think Obama needs the mandate to really move forward on all those programs that will just irk the shit out of all you republicans!:poke:

But he admitted to Matt Lauer he won't be able to move on those programs with the economic situation now.

Soooooooooo. What's an empty suit to do?

[Kathianne]

that's your opinion.... and you're welcome to it!

Thank you, God! I have 'freedom of thought.'

[Immanuel]

that's your opinion.... and you're welcome to it!

Do you really believe that the majority of Americans want to live in the next East Germany?

Immie

[retiredman]

But he admitted to Matt Lauer he won't be able to move on those programs with the economic situation now.

Soooooooooo. What's an empty suit to do?

I dunno...get the troops out of Iraq while he waits for the economy to improve?

[retiredman]

Do you really believe that the majority of Americans want to live in the next East Germany?

Immie

when you lay off the flatulent rhetorical hyperbole, we can talk about it.

[retiredman]

Thank you, God! I have 'freedom of thought.'

AND...you can voice it too, and I won't even neg rep you for doing so.

[Mr. P]

I dunno...get the troops out of Iraq while he waits for the economy to improve?

That will happen with or without him.

[Kathianne]

AND...you can voice it too, and I won't even neg rep you for doing so.

So you admit, you do believe you are God.

[Immanuel]

when you lay off the flatulent rhetorical hyperbole, we can talk about it.

I see you pulled the typical liberal escape of avoiding the question.

So, let me modify my question. Do you really believe the majority of Americans want to live in a socialist country as you do?

Come on, MFM, it is a simple yes or no question. I'm sure you can handle that.

Immie

[Mr. P]

I see you pulled the typical liberal escape of avoiding the question.

So, let me modify my question. Do you really believe the majority of Americans want to live in a socialist country as you do?

Immie

I don't think he does...he just WANTS you to think THEY DO. Tricky bugger ain't he?

[retiredman]

I see you pulled the typical liberal escape of avoiding the question.

So, let me modify my question. Do you really believe the majority of Americans want to live in a socialist country as you do?

Immie

again... an erroneous question. I do not want to live in a socialist country.

do I believe that a majority of americans want the government to assist all american is getting affordable healthcare? yes I do.

do I think that the majority of americans are perfectly happy with a progressive income tax scale like our country has had since the very inception of federal income tax where the rich pay a greater percentage of their net income than the poor do? yes I do.

[Immanuel]

again... an erroneous question. I do not want to live in a socialist country.

do I believe that a majority of americans want the government to assist all american is getting affordable healthcare? yes I do.

do I think that the majority of americans are perfectly happy with a progressive income tax scale like our country has had since the very inception of federal income tax where the rich pay a greater percentage of their net income than the poor do? yes I do.

Since the rich already do pay a much larger percentage of their income then the poor do (the poor don't pay taxes anyway as the truly poor get credits that exceed their "taxes"), we are already there. Unfortunately, Obama simply wants everyone to pay more and more and more while the government gets bigger and bigger and bigger (bound to come with Obama's National Healthcare plan) and the National Debt gets bigger and bigger and bigger, where do you want it to stop?

Immie

[retiredman]

Since the rich already do pay a much larger percentage of their income then the poor do (the poor don't pay taxes anyway as the truly poor get credits that exceed their "taxes"), we are already there. Unfortunately, Obama simply wants everyone to pay more and more and more while the government gets bigger and bigger and bigger (bound to come with Obama's National Healthcare plan) and the National Debt gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

Immie

the marginal tax rate has wiggled up and down since the very inception of income tax. it's called politics. your opinion about his healthcare proposal is just that: an opinion...and nonetheless, polls show that America wants the government to play a role in insuring healthcare for everyone. deal with it.

Suggestion: go find out what the top marginal tax rate was during the Eisenhower administration.

[Immanuel]

MFM,

Where do you want the top income tax bracket to end up? What marginal rate will satisfy you?

What seems fair to you?

Immie

[Kathianne]

the marginal tax rate has wiggled up and down since the very inception of income tax. it's called politics. your opinion about his healthcare proposal is just that: an opinion...and nonetheless, polls show that America wants the government to play a role in insuring healthcare for everyone. deal with it.

Suggestion: go find out what the top marginal tax rate was during the Eisenhower administration.

Why not just make it 90% for the top? Anyone should be able to get by on 10% of that income, right? What do you call a system that punishes the successful?

[retiredman]

Why not just make it 90% for the top? Anyone should be able to get by on 10% of that income, right? What do you call a system that punishes the successful?

It used to be 90%...when I was a kid... and the country club was full of rich folks and the children of rich folks. NO one has suggested such a number now...

and in answer to your question, I call that system American democracy. suck it up.

[Immanuel]

the marginal tax rate has wiggled up and down since the very inception of income tax. it's called politics. your opinion about his healthcare proposal is just that: an opinion...and nonetheless, polls show that America wants the government to play a role in insuring healthcare for everyone. deal with it.

Suggestion: go find out what the top marginal tax rate was during the Eisenhower administration.

Only idiots want the government controlling healthcare.

The government is the last organization in the world that should control healthcare. Any such plan is a recipe for disaster.

Now, I will admit that we are in an insurance crisis. I've said that for a long time. I've also said universal (aka socialist) healthcare is inevitable in America. That doesn't mean I want Obama controlling it. That doesn't mean I want a new federal beauracracy running health care.

As for the top rate during Eisenhower's administration, it doesn't matter what it was. Is that what you think is reasonable, 90+% of income over $400k?. Is that what you and Obama are striving for? Of course that is income tax only! With the stated idea that there would be no cap on FICA taxes either your looking at 99%... wait most states have sales taxes so your looking at roughly 105% of taxable income over $400K.

God help us if you win!

Immie

[Mr. P]

the marginal tax rate has wiggled up and down since the very inception of income tax. it's called politics. your opinion about his healthcare proposal is just that: an opinion...and nonetheless, polls show that America wants the government to play a role in insuring healthcare for everyone. deal with it.

Suggestion: go find out what the top marginal tax rate was during the Eisenhower administration.

OH yeah, and they wanted everyone to own a home too...where has THAT lead US? The result is IN YER FACE! We CAN"T provide for the entire Countries wants just because they may want it.

[Kathianne]

It used to be 90%...when I was a kid... and the country club was full of rich folks and the children of rich folks. NO one has suggested such a number now...

and in answer to your question, I call that system American democracy. suck it up.

Sorry, you are the only sucker around here.

[retiredman]

Only idiots want the government controlling healthcare.

The government is the last organization in the world that should control healthcare. Any such plan is a recipe for disaster.

Now, I will admit that we are in an insurance crisis. I've said that for a long time. I've also said universal (aka socialist) healthcare is inevitable in America. That doesn't mean I want Obama controlling it. That doesn't mean I want a new federal beauracracy running health care.

As for the top rate during Eisenhower's administration, it doesn't matter what it was. Is that what you think is reasonable, 90+% of income over $400k?. Is that what you and Obama are striving for? Of course that is income tax only! With the stated idea that there would be no cap on FICA taxes either your looking at 99%... wait most states have sales taxes so your looking at roughly 105% of taxable income over $400K.

God help us if you win!

Immie

where have I ever said that the federal government should run health care? I said that the majority of Americans want the government to play a role in it.

Re: Ike's administration. No one ever claimed that HE was running a socialist government. No one has ever suggested returning to those tax rates. All Obama has said was that he would roll back the tax cuts to millionaires that Bush enacted. How did YOU make out during the Clinton years?

all you GOT is hyperbolic rhetoric. really.

[retiredman]

OH yeah, and they wanted everyone to own a home too...where has THAT lead US? The result is IN YER FACE! We CAN"T provide for the entire Countries wants just because they may want it.

Yeah... the crisis on Wall Street is all because of those poor folks and their mortgages! :laugh2:

[Yurt]

the marginal tax rate has wiggled up and down since the very inception of income tax. it's called politics. your opinion about his healthcare proposal is just that: an opinion...and nonetheless, polls show that America wants the government to play a role in insuring healthcare for everyone. deal with it.

Suggestion: go find out what the top marginal tax rate was during the Eisenhower administration.

link to the polls and link to exactly what you allege america wants of the government's ""role""


It used to be 90%...when I was a kid... and the country club was full of rich folks and the children of rich folks. NO one has suggested such a number now...

and in answer to your question, I call that system American democracy. suck it up.

you were never a kid...stop teasing me

so there were as many people with wealth then as there are now? you don't think more people have more now then then? explain exactly how the 90% tax made this country better. and if it did make this country so great, why is that tax no longer around? why don't 90% of the people support it?

[Yurt]

so did biden tell the truth or was he lying when he said obama does not have the experience to lead this country and be president?



that is bimbo biden for you....

mfm, i..... guess ..... you missed this post.....

[retiredman]

link to the polls and link to exactly what you allege america wants of the government's ""role""



you were never a kid...stop teasing me

so there were as many people with wealth then as there are now? you don't think more people have more now then then? explain exactly how the 90% tax made this country better. and if it did make this country so great, why is that tax no longer around? why don't 90% of the people support it?

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/US/healthcare031020_poll.html

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/15715


And here I thought you were not going to be insulting me anymore. I guess your word isn't worth much. I guess I am not surprised.

I have NEVER suggested, nor has Obama, that we return to 90% marginal tax rates. I pointed it out to show Immie that Ike did not run a socialistic government. I asked him if he was negatively impacted by the tax rates during the Clinton administration. America prospered with those tax rates and has floundered under Bush's.

[Yurt]

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/US/healthcare031020_poll.html

And here I thought you were not going to be insulting me anymore. I guess your word isn't worth much. I guess I am not surprised.

I have NEVER suggested, nor has Obama, that we return to 90% marginal tax rates. I pointed it out to show Immie that Ike did not run a socialistic government. I asked him if he was negatively impacted by the tax rates during the Clinton administration. America prospered with those tax rates and has floundered under Bush's.

:link:

and what insult? you can't take a little ribbing? you honestly do know the difference between teasing and insulting? good lord.

i NEVER said you did suggest that, did i? of course not, but you want to imply that i did. not true. i asked a question and obviously you are incapable of answering it. thats ok. just say so next time, instead of implying i made a statement about what you did or did not say.

[Yurt]

your link:

Yet apprehension about the system is counterbalanced by broad satisfaction among insured Americans with their own current quality of care, coverage and costs — a situation that tends to encourage a cautious approach to change

...

the link did nothing to support your proposition of "role" vs "control". it mentioned universal HC, thats it

[Kathianne]

So you admit, you do believe you are God.

3 hours later, no denial. Interesting, has any of you known MFM to miss responding to a call out? I think he mixes his 'appointed' position, to being the savior. I know he thinks his party's and his opinions would make for a perfect world.

[Mr. P]

Yeah... the crisis on Wall Street is all because of those poor folks and their mortgages! :laugh2:

More than just the poor. The Governments "everyone should own a home remove loan qualifiers, we'll take the risk" is the prime cause. government can't operate anything efficiently, we sure as hell don't need them in charge of more, for sure NOT health care!

[Mr. P]

3 hours later, no denial. Interesting, have any of you known MFM to miss responding to a call out? I think he mixes his 'appointed' position, to being the savior. I know he thinks his party's and his opinions would make for a perfect world.

Yes, many times.

[Kathianne]

Yes, many times.

Funny, he usually responds nearly immediately. When late at night, he combs the threads in morning.

[retiredman]

MFM,

Where do you want the top income tax bracket to end up? What marginal rate will satisfy you?

What seems fair to you?

Immie

right where they were during the Clinton administration. I think I already said that about twelve times.

[Immanuel]

where have I ever said that the federal government should run health care? I said that the majority of Americans want the government to play a role in it.

Re: Ike's administration. No one ever claimed that HE was running a socialist government. No one has ever suggested returning to those tax rates. All Obama has said was that he would roll back the tax cuts to millionaires that Bush enacted. How did YOU make out during the Clinton years?

all you GOT is hyperbolic rhetoric. really.

I don't know, but you're hint that Eisenhower's marginal rates were reasonable makes me think that you were thinking it would be a grand thing to see those kinds of rates again. You threw those numbers out not me. You pointed to them, not me.

I wonder what $400k/year in 1955 works out to be? I doubt there were too many CEO's that even came close to that figure back then. I know my parents told me that they were living on something like $175 (can't remember whether it was per week or per month but not much different) in 1961 when I was born. Or maybe that was one of those, "I walked five miles to school everyday up hill both ways", tales. My dad was in the Air Force.

But, let me guess, 90% of income above $400k would suit you and Obama quite happily.

Hey, I have an idea. Why don't you commit to donating say 105% of your income above say $60,000/year to Barack Obama's socialist government? Put your money where you mouth is. I imagine you make at least $60k. If you don't then set it at about 75% of your income and go from there.

Immie

[retiredman]

So you admit, you do believe you are God.

missed this one kathianne...it was at the bottom of the page after all.

No... of course I do not believe I am God. What an insulting and inflammatory question.