Marx Leads the Way

[Joe Steel]

As American capitalism collapses, we should take note and, I daresay, marvel at the prescience of Karl Marx. His Manifesto of the Communist Party, written in 1848, provides solutions to problems only now becoming manifest to lesser humans.


5. Centralisation of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

Fannine Mae, Freddie Mac, AIG and coming soon to a bank near you.

(Yes, I know these aren't technical banks but the future isn't always clear even to visionaries.)

[diuretic]

Marx wasn't prescient he just worked out how things would turn out. He carried out an exacting analysis of capitalism in Das Kapital and using his astounding knowledge of human history developed a process of analysing human progress (dialetical materialism) borrowing from his tutor Hegel. There are those who want to put a timeline on his "predictions" but they miss the point. Marx simply predicted what would happen and why and yes, he argued that the end of capitalism should be brought forward by proletarian revolution, not realising that a more benign form of capitalism would in fact turn out to be beneficial for many years for humanity.

But he did argue that capitalism would be its own worst enemy and it would turn on itself and that from that would come the movement to socialism and then to communism. In these last few days we've seen capitalism in the US nearly fail. No, it has failed. The US government has had to resort to socialism to protect the agencies of capitalism in the short term. It will be okay for a while but this isn't a stumble, this is a case of the horse having put its hoof in a rabbit hole and breaking its leg. This is the harbinger. It will take a while but capitalism will be subsumed, just as Marx said it would. It will be gradual (always the best approach) but it wil happen.

[Joe Steel]

But he did argue that capitalism would be its own worst enemy

Exactly.

Capitalism is predatory by nature. It is greed and the basest of human instincts only loosely chained. Unleash the beast and it will consume not only all who encounter it but, eventually, itself.

[diuretic]

Times like this should force us all to examine our own nature as individual human being and how we relate to to others. Crises are good for humanity, as long as we can ameliorate the effects.

Here we are whining about Wall Street and in Haiti people are starving to death and have no shelter after the hurricanes.

Sometimes I dislike myself for my own hypocrisy.

[NightTrain]

Time to move to a good old Communist country, Joey. Cuba?

Better yet, China. You can be a good, quiet communist there, working the rice paddies.

Don't even think about the Internet, though. The Internet is blocked, so you'd better learn some good songs to keep yourself entertained as you farm that rice for your comrades.

Remember, you get paid as much as a rocket scientist as a rice farmer, so you two should have plenty to talk about at the government Mayday party.

And don't even think about questioning government, let alone spout the stupid shit you are infamous for. You would have been hanged by your 3rd post.

I'll chip in for your ticket to China, buddy. I'm fairly certain that you'll get a free ticket if you promise you'll stay there and live the dream.

[Joe Steel]

Time to move to a good old Communist country, Joey. Cuba?

Better yet, China. You can be a good, quiet communist there, working the rice paddies.

Don't even think about the Internet, though. The Internet is blocked, so you'd better learn some good songs to keep yourself entertained as you farm that rice for your comrades.

Remember, you get paid as much as a rocket scientist as a rice farmer, so you two should have plenty to talk about at the government Mayday party.

And don't even think about questioning government, let alone spout the stupid shit you are infamous for. You would have been hanged by your 3rd post.

I'll chip in for your ticket to China, buddy. I'm fairly certain that you'll get a free ticket if you promise you'll stay there and live the dream.

Reality is a strange concept to you, isn't it?

US Conservatives are nationalizing financial intermediaries as Marx suggested.

Do you understand what that means?

[NightTrain]

Reality is a strange concept to you, isn't it?

US Conservatives are nationalizing financial intermediaries as Marx suggested.

Do you understand what that means?

Bailouts are something that I am against. Survival of the fittest.

Now, do you know how to properly hold a rice bucket?

[Joe Steel]

Bailouts are something that I am against. Survival of the fittest.

Conservatism has turned to bailouts. It wasn't fit to survive has it is popularly conceived.

Do you understand that?

[diuretic]

Bailouts are something that I am against. Survival of the fittest.

Now, do you know how to properly hold a rice bucket?

This isn't about individuals. It's about a system. The free market has failed. The US government and various international central banks are trying to keep alive the international capitalist system using socialist means. It's a transitional period. As people see that socialism works they will be more attracted to it and will easily reject the failed capitalist system,
It's happening right now.

[Yurt]

i'm not sure i would say the free market or capitalism has failed, rather, the current government has failed capitalism by using socialist methods to "help" the capitalist economy. the entities should be allowed to fail and mortgages should not be forced on any company simply to get the so-called less fortunate a home to """own""", which as we see now is really government housing anyways.

[manu1959]

what utter crap......there are four choices...

a. do nothing and let the chips fall where they may.....

b. give a trillion dollars to those that defaulted on their loans......

c. give a trillion dollars to those that hold the defaulted loans.....

d. b+c

[avatar4321]

The free market hasnt failed. The free market isnt being given a chance to work. In a free market, the consequences for bad management is that companies fail. You can't have the consequences that are supposed to occur occur and claim its a failure. It's absurd.

Seems to me that the biggest problem for the financial market is the lack of integrity in the executive and politicians who are running it.

[Yurt]

what utter crap......there are four choices...

a. do nothing and let the chips fall where they may.....

b. give a trillion dollars to those that defaulted on their loans......

c. give a trillion dollars to those that hold the defaulted loans.....

d. b+c

what would you pick?

[mundame]

The US government and various international central banks are trying to keep alive the international capitalist system using socialist means. It's a transitional period. As people see that socialism works they will be more attracted to it and will easily reject the failed capitalist system, It's happening right now.


I think it's transitional right back to (better regulated) capitalism.

Panics are normal; infrequent, but there have been quite a few, all the way back to the Tulipmania and the South Sea Bubble. So we had a housing bubble and a panic when it broke. Same old, same old. Socialism's history is so truly dire that there are almost no fans of it left.

They'll fix this like they fixed the Great Depression and the savings and loan crisis and we'll continue on, enriched by capitalism.


Remember that nobody ever got enriched by communism or socialism.

Just impoverished, and the whole culture becomes corrupted as the "first among equals" maneuver to get what little good stuff is going.

Capitalism does have occasional rare panics, but at least there's a good chance for smart and hard-working people to become rich and prosperous. There's nothing like that with socialism, just poverty spread out to everyone.

[theHawk]

Who are the so called "conservatives" that are bailing out these mortgage companies? Pelosi and Reid? lol.

[mundame]

Who are the so called "conservatives" that are bailing out these mortgage companies? Pelosi and Reid? lol.


Paulson and Bernanke and Bush, actually.

[diuretic]

i'm not sure i would say the free market or capitalism has failed, rather, the current government has failed capitalism by using socialist methods to "help" the capitalist economy. the entities should be allowed to fail and mortgages should not be forced on any company simply to get the so-called less fortunate a home to """own""", which as we see now is really government housing anyways.

I'd admit to a bit of hyperbole. But I do still hold my point that capitalism as a system has failed at this point in the US. Now, I have to make this point. I am not indulging in schadenfreude. Too many ordinary people are being hurt, really hurt. I admit I don't care about the super-wealthy, they may lose a lot of money but they won't lose livelihood or necessary assets like those who lose their jobs out of this will.

Bush and Paulson have done exactly the right thing. If they hadn't intervened then it is entirely possible that the whole world's economic system would have failed. Even right now I'm not sure - what would I know, I'm not an economist, I'm just reading and listening to various sources and expert opinions - that the crisis is over. I hope it is, I really do.

I do believe that capitalism will give way to socialism as an economic system but it will be out of necessity, not some nutter in a beret with an AK-47 banging on about "revolution". Crises such as this will force governments around the world, particularly in the west, to consider elements of socialism being used to greater effect (they're already present to some degree) to protect us from the effects of rapacious capitalism and perhaps breed hybrid form of capitalism cum sociallism which takes the best elements of both and discards those elements that aren't at all useful.

[diuretic]

I think it's transitional right back to (better regulated) capitalism.

Panics are normal; infrequent, but there have been quite a few, all the way back to the Tulipmania and the South Sea Bubble. So we had a housing bubble and a panic when it broke. Same old, same old. Socialism's history is so truly dire that there are almost no fans of it left.

They'll fix this like they fixed the Great Depression and the savings and loan crisis and we'll continue on, enriched by capitalism.


Remember that nobody ever got enriched by communism or socialism.

Just impoverished, and the whole culture becomes corrupted as the "first among equals" maneuver to get what little good stuff is going.

Capitalism does have occasional rare panics, but at least there's a good chance for smart and hard-working people to become rich and prosperous. There's nothing like that with socialism, just poverty spread out to everyone.

You could well be right about a return to properly regulated capitalism. I had a think about that and that's probably more likely at this time than the scenario I just described. But I'm mindful of Lester Thurow's comments about various generations making the same mistakes because of the limited nature of the human lifespan.

I thought this was an interesting read (not that long either) in light of the current situation.


In the next hour, I would like to have persuaded you that we don't live in a world of change, we live in something much more profound than that. When I was starting out to write this book, The Future of Capitalism, I was trying to find the right metaphor for what I think is going on the world at the moment.

The thing I found that I think most aptly describes the situation you and I are in is the concept that comes from evolutionary biology. It's called "punctuated equilibrium" Because most of the time we're the top of the food-chain species. As the dominant species on the face of the earth, you have nothing to worry about evolution, because you'll simply become bigger, meaner, tougher, stronger, longer-toothed, and more dominant. But every once in a while, something comes along which is called "punctuated equilibrium" that changes that equation.

Of course, the best example is the dinosaurs. For 130 million years, they dominated the surface of the earth. Every single dinosaur generation was bigger, meaner, tougher, and more dominant than the previous. Then all of a sudden this period of punctuated equilibrium comes along, which probably was as short as ten thousand years. In that ten-thousand-year period of time, every single dinosaur died or became a small bird and out the other side was the dominant species on the face of the earth came the mammal. Something quite different. I want to be very clear here because I'm sometimes accused of being a pessimist. A period of punctuated equilibrium is not a period of pessimism versus optimism. It's both simultaneously.

If you're a dinosaur it's very bad news. If you're a mammal it's the chance of a lifetime. You and I wouldn't be here today if it weren't for the fact that those ancient dinosaurs had died, because they would have eaten our ancient relatives and we never would have had a chance to make it.

http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Concourse/8751/versib/thurow1.htm

[Kathianne]

As American capitalism collapses, we should take note and, I daresay, marvel at the prescience of Karl Marx. His Manifesto of the Communist Party, written in 1848, provides solutions to problems only now becoming manifest to lesser humans.


5. Centralisation of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

Fannine Mae, Freddie Mac, AIG and coming soon to a bank near you.

(Yes, I know these aren't technical banks but the future isn't always clear even to visionaries.)
Gee, JS, you make me feel like I'm really in a movie about the 20's and 30's.

[Joe Steel]

Gee, JS, you make me feel like I'm really in a movie about the 20's and 30's.

Not too far off. Republicon bungling very well may have us on the verge of another, mayber greater, depression.

[Kathianne]

Not too far off. Republicon bungling very well may have us on the verge of another, mayber greater, depression.

And according to you, it's Obama playing the role of Hoover.

[Joe Steel]

And according to you, it's Obama playing the role of Hoover.

I've never said anything even remotely like that.

In fact, McCain is the Hoover of the current crisis. He, like Hoover, wants to deal with our economic difficulties by ignoring everyday Americans and subsidizing capitalists. It failed so badly the first time I can't imagine why McCain wants to try it again. It must be his incrasingly apparent confusion.

[Sitarro]

As American capitalism collapses, we should take note and, I daresay, marvel at the prescience of Karl Marx. His Manifesto of the Communist Party, written in 1848, provides solutions to problems only now becoming manifest to lesser humans.


5. Centralisation of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

Fannine Mae, Freddie Mac, AIG and coming soon to a bank near you.

(Yes, I know these aren't technical banks but the future isn't always clear even to visionaries.)

What amazes me is that someone who is disagreed with to point of being -86,000 in reputation point is even allowed to continue as a member here...... someone is being extremely charitable. It is obvious to everyone that you go out of your way to post nonsensical crap to show what a little childish twat you are. I say it is time to flush your joke of an ass.:fu:

[Yurt]

What amazes me is that someone who is disagreed with to point of being -86,000 in reputation point is even allowed to continue as a member here...... someone is being extremely charitable. It is obvious to everyone that you go out of your way to post nonsensical crap to show what a little childish twat you are. I say it is time to flush your joke of an ass.:fu:

come on, rep is not everything. i wouldn't go to a board that had only my view point, that would be boring. JS is crazy, no doubt, but i would not want to silence his view point.

[diuretic]

I've never said anything even remotely like that.

In fact, McCain is the Hoover of the current crisis. He, like Hoover, wants to deal with our economic difficulties by ignoring everyday Americans and subsidizing capitalists. It failed so badly the first time I can't imagine why McCain wants to try it again. It must be his incrasingly apparent confusion.

I think you're being a tough on McCain. Hoover was in power, McCain isn't. Hoover simply ignored everything. McCain is just nonplussed, he hasn't got a clue what he should say.

Bush - where are my smelling salts - has actually reacted intelligently to the crisis. He and Paulson and Bernanke have done the only thing they could do. Paradoxically that is driving the free market ideologues nuts. They are rightly angry that the US taxpayer is bailing out Wall Street. But they need to understand that if that wasn't happening then the US financial system and the financial system of much of the rest of the world would probably collapse. No point in being ideologically pure if the result is anarchy.

McCain realises that the deregulation, of which he was part, is partly responsible for this. It largely facilitated the nefarious goings-on which have seen Wall Street nearly collapse. There a lot of other players in this but they've only been able to do what they've done lawfully because of deregulation. McCain helped facilitate it. What does he say, "I was wrong"? If he does then his judgement will be called into question in the face of an election.

If he attacks Bush for the bailout then he will be called a hypocrite. If he praises Bush for the bailout he will be called a socialist and support amongst the rightists, the free market ideologues, will collapse.

McCain is nonplussed.