Today's Gospel Lesson for MFM and Those who Love to Hate Him.

[Immanuel]

Matthew 21:21-22, 33-35


21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"

22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times



33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

How many times should I forgive someone that sins against me?

Think about it.

Immie

[crin63]

Whats your point Immie?

[Yurt]

i do not believe forgiveness need be immediate, nor do i believe there is not room for anger in a christian's life.

[Immanuel]

Whats your point Immie?

Let them mull over it a bit first, but the red letters might be a hint.

Immie

[emmett]

Be nice to MFM?

He gets to be an asshole seventy-seven times?

That we need to be more forgiving of this child of God?

That you must tell the cat he cannot shoot him?

[Yurt]

Whats your point Immie?

IMHO, he is growing into spirituality and i believe that he truly loves the Lord and is so overjoyed with it he wants us all to live perfect lives. could be just a wee bit of over zealousness. then again, its not in my face and it doesn't hurt to read verses and be reminded.

[Yurt]

Be nice to MFM?

He gets to be an asshole seventy-seven times?

That we need to be more forgiving of this child of God?

That you must tell the cat he cannot shoot him?

it is 70 times 7 i believe, after that he is toast :laugh2:

[Immanuel]

i do not believe forgiveness need be immediate, nor do i believe there is not room for anger in a christian's life.

Good point, but might I suggest you not wait too long. I wouldn't want to be a man that decided to wait to believe Jesus until I was on my death bed so that I could enjoy all the good things in life only to meet another car head on so to speak. :cheers2:

Immie

[Immanuel]

Be nice to MFM?

He gets to be an asshole seventy-seven times?

That we need to be more forgiving of this child of God?

That you must tell the cat he cannot shoot him?

Who was the thread addressed to?

[Immanuel]

IMHO, he is growing into spirituality and i believe that he truly loves the Lord and is so overjoyed with it he wants us all to live perfect lives. could be just a wee bit of over zealousness. then again, its not in my face and it doesn't hurt to read verses and be reminded.

Actually, I have toned down my "preaching" in the past year or so. You should have seen me on other sites. :p


it is 70 times 7 i believe, after that he is toast :laugh2:

And yes, in some versions it is 70 times 7. I don't read Greek or Hebrew, so I am not certain which version is correct. However, I don't think the point Jesus was trying to make was that at 78, "he's toast" or that you have to wait until time number 491 before he's toast. :poke:

I think the point is that you should not be counting how many times you have forgiven your brother, just forgive.

Immie

[crin63]

Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

Lets not also forget repentance Immie. That is a part of forgiveness.

[emmett]

Who was the thread addressed to?


Oh...........OK.

[Immanuel]

Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

Lets not also forget repentance Immie. That is a part of forgiveness.

Is repentance required?

Luke 11:4


4Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.[a]
And lead us not into temptation.[b]' "

The Lord taught us this prayer and he doesn't say "we also forgive everyone who repents of their sins [against us]".

Immie

[Said1]

Holy Drama Queen. :laugh2:

[crin63]

Is repentance required?

Luke 11:4

Immie

I believe repentance is probably necessary. If repentance is a necessary part of salvation, and forgiveness of sin is through salvation then I believe that repentance is necessary. Otherwise Jesus would have been teaching a principle contrary to salvation and that just doesn't work

[Immanuel]

I believe repentance is probably necessary. If repentance is a necessary part of salvation, and forgiveness of sin is through salvation then I believe that repentance is necessary. Otherwise Jesus would have been teaching a principle contrary to salvation and that just doesn't work

No, that wouldn't work, but have you read Charles Spurgeon's sermon on Repentance? You can look it up on the net. The title of the sermon is Turn or Burn? It puts quite a different view on the term repentance.

If you declare that one must repent in order to be saved then you are declaring that something one does (a work) affects his/her salvation. Charles Spurgeon declares that without God, we cannot repent. Actually a very interesting sermon.

Turn or Burn can be read here:

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0106.htm

Personally, I have always believed that nothing I can do affects my salvation so repentance if it is something that I have to do is bothersome to me. If it is something that I do through God's grace, I can reconcile that with my understanding of what the Cross has done for me.

Immie

[retiredman]

Matthew 21:21-22, 33-35


How many times should I forgive someone that sins against me?

Think about it.

Immie

seventy times seven times... perpetual forgiveness, unending forgiveness. If any of us go to our grave without forgiving ALL of our debtors, all of those who trespass against us, we will not go to heaven. period. Jesus is unequivocal about it. There is no wiggle room.

[crin63]

No, that wouldn't work, but have you read Charles Spurgeon's sermon on Repentance? You can look it up on the net. The title of the sermon is Turn or Burn? It puts quite a different view on the term repentance.

If you declare that one must repent in order to be saved then you are declaring that something one does (a work) affects his/her salvation. Charles Spurgeon declares that without God, we cannot repent. Actually a very interesting sermon.

Turn or Burn can be read here:

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0106.htm

Personally, I have always believed that nothing I can do affects my salvation so repentance if it is something that I have to do is bothersome to me. If it is something that I do through God's grace, I can reconcile that with my understanding of what the Cross has done for me.

Immie

Spurgeon is one of my favorite preachers of all time. I will enjoy reading that sermon.The current pastor of the Metropolitan Tabernacle, Peter Masters is a friend of my pastor.

I'm not arguing against forgiveness. I had and have much to be forgiven for not be a forgiving person myself. I have forgiven people who wronged me in the past without their asking, for my own peace. I do however think that repentance does a play an important role in salvation and forgiveness. I believe repentance is a grace not a work.

How do you reconcile these following scriptures if repentance isn't necessary?

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

Luk 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

[Yurt]

QUOTE=Immanuel;296750]Actually, I have toned down my "preaching" in the past year or so. You should have seen me on other sites. :p

I knew it, i had you pinned LOL.



And yes, in some versions it is 70 times 7. I don't read Greek or Hebrew, so I am not certain which version is correct. However, I don't think the point Jesus was trying to make was that at 78, "he's toast" or that you have to wait until time number 491 before he's toast. :poke:

I think the point is that you should not be counting how many times you have forgiven your brother, just forgive.

Immie

dude, i'm kidding about that :poke:

to my knowledge, the greek supports the 70X7. i did not take theology at school, but many friends who did, and my understanding from them (they have to study both languages) is that it is 70X7 and this is supposed to be a metaphor that essentially means, always. i think it has to do with multiplying 7's. i don't know, but 70X7 seems more logical than 77 times, you have a somewhat finite answer (it is 2!) versus (2x5 times), the latter lending more credence to the theory that we are to "think" about it. i don't know, but i buy it.

[Yurt]

seventy times seven times... perpetual forgiveness, unending forgiveness. If any of us go to our grave without forgiving ALL of our debtors, all of those who trespass against us, we will not go to heaven. period. Jesus is unequivocal about it. There is no wiggle room.

nope. i agree with you on the 70X7, i actually just did a post on it above. did a small part of hell freeze over while i was in malibu, are we agreeing?

my understanding is that there is only one sin that is a guarantee of not going to heaven, blaspemy of the holy spirit. do you have bible verses to suppport your view, i mean, i know, unlike me, you throw them around all the time...

[retiredman]

nope. i agree with you on the 70X7, i actually just did a post on it above. did a small part of hell freeze over while i was in malibu, are we agreeing?

my understanding is that there is only one sin that is a guarantee of not going to heaven, blaspemy of the holy spirit. do you have bible verses to suppport your view, i mean, i know, unlike me, you throw them around all the time...


Matthew 18:34-35
"In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

It was the subject of my sermon this morning. But my guess is you were in Malibu doing something recreational and secular and didn't bother attending religious services so you missed any reference to today's lectionary reading.

[darin]

MFM uses that verse to be an ass to people. It's sickening. It's like ppl using the 'causing your brother to stumble' verse in an attempt to get you to do EVERYTHING their way - "If you don't, I'll STUMBLE, and that'll be on you!"

:-/

MFM knows nothing of Christ. I don't expect him to have the attitude of a Christian. It just sickens me that he claims Christianity. If he didn't, there'd be no issue.

[retiredman]

A cute little mathematical sidelight: my son, the choir director, picked hymn #490 for this week: "Now in the Days of Youth"

[retiredman]

MFM uses that verse to be an ass to people. It's sickening. It's like ppl using the 'causing your brother to stumble' verse in an attempt to get you to do EVERYTHING their way - "If you don't, I'll STUMBLE, and that'll be on you!"

:-/

MFM knows nothing of Christ. I don't expect him to have the attitude of a Christian. It just sickens me that he claims Christianity. If he didn't, there'd be no issue.

I beg to differ. I preached this moring about how I, myself, while in the ppricess of forgiving my brothers and sisters from my heart, had a ways to go before I had finished the task. I also preached that if one had NOT finished the task of forgiveness before one's earthy life was over, one would not, according to the parable from today's reading from Matthew, be able to enter heaven. I am not sure whether or not I have fully forgiven you, fmp, for your debts and trespasses against me, but you should know that I am trying very hard to work through that process before I die.

[darin]

You preached. That's a riot. You're making it worse by your lies. Trespasses against you? lmao. That's like saying a convict (you) feels like the courts (me) sinned against you by pointing out your wrong-doing.

[retiredman]

You preached. That's a riot. You're making it worse by your lies.

I did...would you like to read my sermon?

“Seventy Times Seven… That’s a LOT!”
14 September, 2008

Today’s gospel reading from Matthew is another example of why I think the lectionary is a good thing to have – but a difficult thing to try to stick to. As you know, Christian churches all over the world – Catholics, Protestants, all of them – have gotten together and divvied up the really important stuff in the Old and the New Testament into three years worth of weekly readings. We are presently in year A, and The Gospel According to Matthew is covered pretty extensively in Year A. If a minister follows the lectionary, he invariably runs into some problematic portions of the Bible that, were he not following the lectionary, he could simply avoid and preach about other, easier, nicer, friendlier passages. But if I were to do that – and believe me, the temptation to do so is very strong at times – if I were to do that I would really miss some of the more important lessons of Jesus and about Jesus. Today’s conversation between Peter and Jesus and the parable that follows is a passage that is not exactly nice, or easy or friendly, but it may be one of THE most important passages in the entire New Testament.
So here at the start of the passage, Peter asks: “Lord, if another member of the church sins against me, how often should I forgive? As many as seven times?” Peter wants to know about this whole forgiving business. Just last week, the lectionary reading from Matthew had Jesus explaining how to deal with people who sin against you. Peter knew that Jewish law said that you had to forgive your neighbor three times. It is right there in the book of Amos: revocation of punishment of various nations for three transgressions but not for four. From this, it was deduced that God’s forgiveness extended to three offenses and that he visited the sinner with punishment at the fourth. It was not to be thought that a man could be more gracious than God, so rabbinic teachings at that time limited forgiveness to three times. Peter had begun to understand that Jesus was a bit more focused on forgiveness than that, so he doubled that number and added one for good measure. Surely that would be enough. Surely SEVEN Times was a number that Jesus would find acceptable. Boy… did he ever miss the mark! Jesus tells him that he must forgive people who sin against him seventy times seven times. That’s a LOT of times! That is a lot of forgiveness. That is really perpetual, unending forgiveness. That’s tough.
And the parable he uses to explain that to Peter is pretty amazing. The first servant owes his master ten thousand talents. In today’s currency, a talent would be worth nearly a thousand dollars. That debt, therefore is the modern day equivalent of about ten million dollars! That was an ENORMOUS debt. The second servant owed the first servant a hundred denarii. A denarius was worth a little less than a nickel so his total debt was about five bucks. So everybody in the text is in debt. Some owe a lot. Some are indebted a little. But all owe somebody something! The text also makes it clear that the terrible consequence of being in debt was debtor's prison. In those times, when a bill became past due and one couldn't pay, the creditor had the right to seize you and throw you into the rat infested, dark and dank dungeon. And there you remained until you paid every cent or died. The master in this parable chose to forgive the first servant of his enormous debt, but the first servant was not so forgiving to the second servant regarding his insignificant debt.
Ponder this question: Do you have a forgiving spirit? Do you have a forgiving spirit?

You could probably answer this question with both a yes and no. When it comes to the difficult subject of forgiveness, there are always limitations, conditions, circumstances, and varying qualifications to the answer we give. But I don’t think that we have any leeway to harbor those limitations, conditions, circumstances and qualifications. I don’t think we are given ANY slack on this matter whatsoever. Hear again this excerpt from the parable: Then his lord summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked slave! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Should you not have had mercy on your fellow slave, as I had mercy on you?’ And in anger his lord handed him over to be tortured until he would pay his entire debt. So my heavenly Father will also do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother or sister from your heart.” Period. There is no wiggle room there. Jesus does not tell us that God will take our whole lives into consideration when we face judgment. Jesus does not say that God will remember all those times when we tossed a large check into the collection plate, or those times when we sang so sweetly in the church choir or those times when we worked on Blue Jean Sunday or those times when we helped out at the public supper or those times when we prayed so fervently. Jesus is unequivocal about it: we are going to HELL if we don’t forgive our debtors seventy times seven times. If, when we pass on from this earthly life, we have left people out there unforgiven, if we have withheld forgiveness right unto the grave, we will not go to heaven. And in anger his lord handed him over to be tortured until he would pay his entire debt. So my heavenly Father will also do to EVERY… ONE… OF… YOU… if you do not forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
I'm glad, aren't you, that Peter asked for help on this subject of forgiveness. I certainly needed help on this issue and I can imagine that you did, too. I am glad that I now know the rules… that I now understand the consequences of withholding forgiveness. I will also readily admit that I still need help with this thing called forgiveness. How about you? May I ask again, do you have a forgiving spirit?
Peter found out…seven times is not the kingdom of heaven. For that kingdom you need to comprehend an unreasonable "new math" of seventy times seven. You need to enter a new world of God's future where there is forgiveness without numbering, yes, forgiveness forever, unending forgiveness, perpetual forgiveness. You need to be so full of a sense of God's grace toward you that you are not measuring out forgiveness like someone who’s facing a shortage. And who can forgive? The one who has been forgiven. Who must forgive? The very same one. Forgiveness is not a dam. It is a pipeline. It is not intended to be stopped up, but channeled on. THEN one samples the kingdom of heaven.
There is no doubt: forgiveness is very difficult unless we follow the example of Christ. On the cross, as the centurions and the Jews were taunting him, Jesus said, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do”. That is a pretty clear example. If Jesus can forgive the very people who are in the midst of crucifying him, we should certainly be able to forgive anyone who has wronged us. It is easier said than done…I know all too well. Unforgiven debts, unforgiven trespasses against us eat away at our souls and embitter our lives. They seem to propel us and motivate onward us with an all-consuming, secret, seething, indignant wrath, but the places they propel us TO are further and further from God’s grace.
Forgiveness is never easy, but it’s ALWAYS the will of God. Jesus told us that in today’s passage. He told us what happens to folks who forgive and what happens to folks who don’t forgive. God demands that we forgive our brothers and sisters from our hearts if we expect to enter the kingdom of heaven.
God’s forgiveness of us is contingent on our forgiveness of others. God gave his only begotten son for US. What sort of an enormous debt do we owe God for that sacrifice, that gift? He forgives us the $10 million dollar sized debts…. All he asks in return is that we forgive the five dollar sized debts. We must forgive in order to be forgiven. There is a good reason for this. The love of God cannot enter an unforgiving heart, and if we don't allow God's forgiveness to first enter us, we can't pass on what we haven't yet received. However, once we genuinely experience it, I believe that we will be able to do nothing else but forgive. Being unforgiving has the effect of locking the door of the heart from the inside; since our God never forces His way in or kicks down that door, we must first open it from the inside ourselves. God cannot offer us any measure of forgiveness until we ourselves offer some measure of forgiveness… and whatever measure we offer to our debtors will be offered back to us by God. It makes sense, does it not, that the more we forgive, the easier that forgiveness flows from our hearts, the more God will forgive us and bless us in return.
We all talk the talk pretty well every Sunday about forgiveness, don’t we? We all make the same bargain with our Heavenly Father each week when we say the Lord’s Prayer: Please God… forgive me for all the stuff I have done in the same way that I forgive all the people who have done stuff to me… forgive me for what I owe YOU if I forgive folks for what they owe ME. How many of us really walk the walk when it comes to forgiveness? I know that I don’t. How many of us really have a forgiving spirit? I know that I haven’t. I know that there are people out there in the world that I have not taken the time to forgive for what they did TO me or for what they didn’t do FOR me or what they WITHHELD from me or for what they TOOK from me or for what they SAID about me or for what they DIDN’T say about me or for how they IGNORED me or for how they didn’t GIVE me the respect or attention that I felt I so RICHLY deserved. They are definitely out there, those folks... lots of them. Can you relate? Do YOU have a forgiving spirit?
The good news, from my perspective, is that, even though I may not have travelled across the land and back through the places and times of my life to actually state my forgiveness out loud, face to face to that army of folks who owe me or who have trespassed against me, or slighted me in some way that angered me or upset me or hurt me, I HAVE started taking the silent internal steps to forgive them in my own heart. I can’t say that I have gotten around to forgiving them all, but I can say that I understand the meaning of today’s gospel reading… I understand the importance of forgiveness and I fully intend to keep working on it until I have, indeed, forgiven them all, if not to their faces, at least in my own heart. And I have started forgiving myself for all the things that I have done that I hope others have or will forgive me for.
I hope that all of you can forgive all the people you need to forgive in the time that is left you. None of us knows how long our stay on earth will be, so I urge you to start today, if you haven’t already, and keep at it until every debtor has been forgiven and until you feel the healing, sustaining, uplifting, glorifying grace of God’s forgiveness enfolding you in his love.
Amen.

[BoogyMan]

No, that wouldn't work, but have you read Charles Spurgeon's sermon on Repentance? You can look it up on the net. The title of the sermon is Turn or Burn? It puts quite a different view on the term repentance.

If you declare that one must repent in order to be saved then you are declaring that something one does (a work) affects his/her salvation. Charles Spurgeon declares that without God, we cannot repent. Actually a very interesting sermon.

Turn or Burn can be read here:

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0106.htm

Personally, I have always believed that nothing I can do affects my salvation so repentance if it is something that I have to do is bothersome to me. If it is something that I do through God's grace, I can reconcile that with my understanding of what the Cross has done for me.

Immie

Hi Immie, why look to the writings of men when God has given us a book that clearly states what you need to know about repentance.


44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

These verses clearly point out that repentance is part of salvation.30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:



30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

With these scriptures in mind, how can one claim that repentance of sins is not required?

[Yurt]

Matthew 18:34-35
"In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

It was the subject of my sermon this morning. But my guess is you were in Malibu doing something recreational and secular and didn't bother attending religious services so you missed any reference to today's lectionary reading.

as usual, you ASSume much. i was there last night, not this morning, well i got home at 2am.

is this your opinion of the verse - that the verse should reside in a vacuum?

[Abbey Marie]

Here's a very clear explanation that jibes with what I've learned in churches over many years about repentance and forgiveness.

Re: The parable of the master who forgives his servat's debt when the servant begged him for patience and mercy. That is, until he learns that his servant did not similarly forgive another's debt to him. Matthew 21:18-33


In this parable that Jesus uses to explain how God's forgiveness works we find that there are two conditions, which are required in order for forgiveness to be granted. One, which we have identified already, is that we must ourselves forgive others. But this condition is first predicated upon an even more fundamental condition. The fundamental condition for forgiveness is that the sinner be repentant.
This important prerequisite could not be more explicit in Jesus' explanation or in the message of the Gospel. Therefore, the command that we forgive others as God forgives us clearly implies that we are to forgive those who repent of their sin as God forgives us when we repent of our sin. This initial prerequisite is also clearly established in Luke 17.

Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
In Luke 17 Jesus is again speaking of our forgiveness of others. In this case he clearly establishes that we are not simply to overlook sin, but to rebuke those who sin against us and only if they repent are we to forgive them. Indeed, even if they sin against us seven times a day, as long as they repent we must forgive them.
Clearly, the repentance of the offender is a conditional, fundamental prerequisite for the forgiveness of sin. This is true when God forgives us and when we forgive others. The obvious message of the New Testament is that only those who repent of their sin to God are forgiven. If we do not repent to God, he will not forgive us.
http://www.biblestudying.net/forgiveness.html

[Yurt]

mfm, you are wise in the ways of the world, what say you to my 'party' in malibu? you know the thread.

[retiredman]

as usual, you ASSume much. i was there last night, not this morning, well i got home at 2am.

is this your opinion of the verse - that the verse should reside in a vacuum?

my opinion of the verse is that if Christians do not have a forgiving heart and have not forgiven their debtors, they will not be allowed entry into heaven.

[Yurt]

my opinion of the verse is that if Christians do not have a forgiving heart and have not forgiven their debtors, they will not be allowed entry into heaven.

the underlined is important.

mfm, i must say, i have come home with a different 'tude', in that, i experienced what it is like to be among 70 or so peeps and only 1 or 2 are with you. but that is not your experience here. sorry to elaborate.

again, do you have a verse that supports your very important message?

[retiredman]

the underlined is important.

mfm, i must say, i have come home with a different 'tude', in that, i experienced what it is like to be among 70 or so peeps and only 1 or 2 are with you. but that is not your experience here. sorry to elaborate.

again, do you have a verse that supports your very important message?

I already posted it. Matt 18:34-35

[retiredman]

mfm, you are wise in the ways of the world, what say you to my 'party' in malibu? you know the thread.

methinks this post is insulting sarcasm. I won't bother to elaborate.

[Yurt]

methinks this post is insulting sarcasm. I won't bother to elaborate.

you are wrong. you were there in that party, if not in person, in force. what say you to the anger?

and i freely admit that i thought of mfm last night in malibu.

is that what you want? are you happy now? come on. your thoughts.

[retiredman]

you are wrong. you were there in that party, if not in person, in force. what say you to the anger?

and i freely admit that i thought of mfm last night in malibu.

is that what you want? are you happy now? come on. your thoughts.


asked and answered. Do you disagree with my interpretation of Matt 18:34-35? would you not say that "And in anger his lord handed him over to be tortured" was the equivalent of Hell?

[Yurt]

asked and answered. Do you disagree with my interpretation of Matt 18:34-35? would you not say that "And in anger his lord handed him over to be tortured" was the equivalent of Hell?

as to hell, no. there is no 'hell'. it is over after the thousand years.

do you believe in a place where god would put his creations in infinite hell?

[retiredman]

as to hell, no. there is no 'hell'. it is over after the thousand years.

do you believe in a place where god would put his creations in infinite hell?


Do I believe in Hell? Do I beleve there is a less pleasant alternative to Heaven? Yes I do.

[Yurt]

Do I believe in Hell? Do I beleve there is a less pleasant alternative to Heaven? Yes I do.

that is not an answer.

[retiredman]

that is not an answer.

it most certainly is. Of COURSE I believe in Hell, and I believe I will be headed there if I go to my grave not having forgiven all of my debtors...which is why I forgave you for continually taunting me by questioning my integrity. Not forgiving you for that meaningless insult was not worth missing heaven for.

[Yurt]

it most certainly is. Of COURSE I believe in Hell, and I believe I will be headed there if I go to my grave not having forgiven all of my debtors...which is why I forgave you for continually taunting me by questioning my integrity. Not forgiving you for that meaningless insult was not worth missing heaven for.

what is hell?

[retiredman]

what is hell?

If you don't know, far be it from me to explain it to you. I would leave that to YOUR pastor. I would certainly be willing to sit down in my office and explain it to you if you were a member of MY flock, but we both know you wouldn't be caught dead inside my church so you really don't need to hear the UCC take on Hell anyway. You might google "Hell + wiki" and gain some insight.

[avatar4321]

I dont think anyone here knows the first thing about Hell.

[retiredman]

I dont think anyone here knows the first thing about Hell.


I think you can say the same thing about heaven. No one KNOWS...but we believe what we believe... on faith.

[Yurt]

If you don't know, far be it from me to explain it to you. I would leave that to YOUR pastor. I would certainly be willing to sit down in my office and explain it to you if you were a member of MY flock, but we both know you wouldn't be caught dead inside my church so you really don't need to hear the UCC take on Hell anyway. You might google "Hell + wiki" and gain some insight.

you are wrong. give the address, i will be there.

and that talk, i guess maybe i will be dead skull preacher.

[retiredman]

you are wrong. give the address, i will be there.

and that talk, i guess maybe i will be dead skull preacher.

when you are next in maine, PM me and I will give you my cell number and we can discuss when you would attend services.

[Yurt]

when you are next in maine, PM me and I will give you my cell number and we can discuss when you would attend services.

why wait? is it not, now or ever?

[Yurt]

add:

i live in san luis obispo

you want, let's hook up.

[retiredman]

why wait? is it not, now or ever?


I am waiting for nothing. If you want to see/hear me preach, you'll need to come to maine. I have no interest in coming to california and will not be doing so. And...you need to come sometime in the next two years because I have an intentionally limited engagement. I would suggest you save yourself the airfare and merely read the sermons that I post occasionally on here and on the DP.com blog.

[Yurt]

I am waiting for nothing. If you want to see/hear me preach, you'll need to come to maine. I have no interest in coming to california and will not be doing so. And...you need to come sometime in the next two years because I have an intentionally limited engagement. I would suggest you save yourself the airfare and merely read the sermons that I post occasionally on here and on the DP.com blog.

you do wait, almost every other post you say:

i'll wait

apparently i must be rich enough to afford to fly out east to hear our sermons.

i guess your 'god' will wait

[retiredman]

you do wait, almost every other post you say:

i'll wait

apparently i must be rich enough to afford to fly out east to hear our sermons.

i guess your 'god' will wait

you did say:

"you are wrong. give the address, i will be there."

I guess I wasn't wrong. Apparently you are all hat and no cattle.

[Yurt]

you did say:

"you are wrong. give the address, i will be there."

I guess I wasn't wrong. Apparently you are all hat and no cattle.

how i am wrong? if your god wills, i will be there, no? money or no.

post up, i gave my town. you work for god or for yourself? i wonder why a minister would hide behind the net. but i am not you. seems strange.

[retiredman]

Like I said, when you decide to make it to maine, PM me and we can arrange to get you the information necessary for you to attend worship here. We both know that you have no intention of ever doing that, and if you did, your purpose would not be friendly.

[Immanuel]

seventy times seven times... perpetual forgiveness, unending forgiveness. If any of us go to our grave without forgiving ALL of our debtors, all of those who trespass against us, we will not go to heaven. period. Jesus is unequivocal about it. There is no wiggle room.

I agree with the 70 x 7, but the NIV was the version I was using and that is how it was posted. I am not going to argue about it when I don't read the Greek and it is not important. I believe the same as you, the message is not that there should be a limit to our forgiveness. We should never stop forgiving... for our own sakes, not those who have sinned against us.

As to whether or not we will enter Heaven if we do not forgive? On that I am not so sure I agree. I'd have to ask a preacher friend of mine... is the lack of forgiveness the unforgiveable sin?


Spurgeon is one of my favorite preachers of all time. I will enjoy reading that sermon.The current pastor of the Metropolitan Tabernacle, Peter Masters is a friend of my pastor.

I'm not arguing against forgiveness. I had and have much to be forgiven for not be a forgiving person myself. I have forgiven people who wronged me in the past without their asking, for my own peace. I do however think that repentance does a play an important role in salvation and forgiveness. I believe repentance is a grace not a work.

And that is exactly what Spurgeon was saying. The Lord gives us the ability to repent, on our own we cannot and will not choose to repent.


How do you reconcile these following scriptures if repentance isn't necessary?

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

Luk 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

If you have not already read it, the Spurgeon sermon answers your question. We must repent, but repentance comes from God, not from ourselves.


I knew it, i had you pinned LOL.




dude, i'm kidding about that :poke:

to my knowledge, the greek supports the 70X7. i did not take theology at school, but many friends who did, and my understanding from them (they have to study both languages) is that it is 70X7 and this is supposed to be a metaphor that essentially means, always. i think it has to do with multiplying 7's. i don't know, but 70X7 seems more logical than 77 times, you have a somewhat finite answer (it is 2!) versus (2x5 times), the latter lending more credence to the theory that we are to "think" about it. i don't know, but i buy it.

I've discussed this already in this post and I will agree with the 70x7 but that this number is not the important part of the message. As you said, "always"



Hi Immie, why look to the writings of men when God has given us a book that clearly states what you need to know about repentance.

Hey BoodyMan, Great to see you. You haven't been around much.

You and I differ on this. Why turn to other men? Probably because I am not smart enough to figure all this out on my own. I need other people who read the original languages and have the background to help me understand God's Word.



With these scriptures in mind, how can one claim that repentance of sins is not required?

Ah, but that is where we agree, my friend, I believe repentance is required. Where we disagree is how repentance comes about. When a person says, "You must accept Jesus Christ as your savior and repent of your sins to go to Heaven" IOW to attain salvation. Then that person is saying that there is something you must do that is more powerful than the Blood of Christ. You must first speak the magic words either in your heart or out loud, "I accept you Jesus Christ as my savior" and give up ALL sin before you can be saved.

First giving up all sin is impossible for us. Second, without God none of that can be accomplished.

So, do we need to repent? Absolutely. But, the question that leads to is how do we repent? I say, that repentance comes from God and that without God, I cannot repent.

As for the verses you pointed out. I didn't go over all of them, but we are limited by a couple of things here. First, we can only read a translation of the Word of God. The "77 times" compared to the "70X7 times" is one example. Which is right? I don't know, but I don't believe it makes a difference. The lesson Jesus was trying to teach is what was important. Second, language and customs have changed over the last 2,000 years. Seventy-seven times may very well have represented "fullness" to the Apostles whereas in our modern time, 77 seems an extremely finite number what with trillions of dollars of deficit in our countries annual budget. :lol:

Immie

[Psychoblues]

Stop here in Mississippi, yuk, when you abide your own challenge. I'll be certain to make things comfortable for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

[Yurt]

Stop here in Mississippi, yuk, when you abide your own challenge. I'll be certain to make things comfortable for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

ok tough guy.

you want me to come and visit you? no problem. give me your trailer number.

[red states rule]

MFM sermon would be something like this:

Believe me or fuck off

Do as I say not as I do you SOB

Democrats are your only hope of a good life

[retiredman]

post 26

[manu1959]

Matthew 21:21-22, 33-35
How many times should I forgive someone that sins against me?
Think about it.
Immie

no need ..... i do not judge what is or is not a sin ....

therfore there is nothing to forgive....

[red states rule]

post 26

Do you hand out barf bags before you bellow from the pulpit?

[Yurt]

post 26

are you wondering why people did not comment on that post? if you want a sermon, make a thread.

[red states rule]

Is the writer familiar with MFM' "sermons"

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41512CCWGQL._SL500_BO2,204,203,200_PIlitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg