Obama - I don't want my daughters "punished with a baby"

[-Cp]

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WoW.....

[theHawk]

Babies are God's punishment to women!!!!

[Yurt]

and people make fun of the way bush talks...

punished with a baby and STDs...sounds like a fire and brimstone preacher from the ucc

[retiredman]

I certainly don't want my 19 year old daughter punished by having her future limited by an unwanted child. She has professional dreams and aspirations and she knows full well that succumbing to a moment of unprotected passion would jeopardize those dreams. It is why I have worked hard at instilling in my daughter the kinds of morals and sense of personal responsibility and accountability that has kept her from getting pregnant out of wedlock. If only the republican's nominee for vice president had been that diligent as a parent, perhaps HER 17 year old daughter would not be knocked up.

[avatar4321]

I certainly don't want my 19 year old daughter punished by having her future limited by an unwanted child. She has professional dreams and aspirations and she knows full well that succumbing to a moment of unprotected passion would jeopardize those dreams. It is why I have worked hard at instilling in my daughter the kinds of morals and sense of personal responsibility and accountability that has kept her from getting pregnant out of wedlock. If only the republican's nominee for vice president had been that diligent as a parent, perhaps HER 17 year old daughter would not be knocked up.

You do realize that having "protected" sex out of wedlock is not moral dont you? So much for teaching your daughter morality. However, her sins will be upon your head for failing to teach her truth.

[retiredman]

You do realize that having "protected" sex out of wedlock is not moral dont you? So much for teaching your daughter morality. However, her sins will be upon your head for failing to teach her truth.
I do understand that. And I have always taught my daughter that she should wait until marriage. Bottom line: my 19 year old daughter is an honors student at a top notch New England university and Sarah Palin's daughter is knocked up before she even graduates from high school. I would say that the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. I am a hell of a lot better parent than Sarah Palin could ever be. and I have three well adjusted, intelligent, civic minded children to prove it.

[Rick OShea]

And his statement demonstrates a fundamental difference between the two camps . . .


http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/Surf_Fishing_Guru/blessing.jpg

[Yurt]

I do understand that. And I have always taught my daughter that she should wait until marriage. Bottom line: my 19 year old daughter is an honors student at a top notch New England university and Sarah Palin's daughter is knocked up before she even graduates from high school. I would say that the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. I am a hell of a lot better parent than Sarah Palin could ever be. and I have three well adjusted, intelligent, civic minded children to prove it.

this has to be the most arrogant and elitist post i have read on this forum. you have no fucking clue about parents and whether their daughters get pregnant at 17 asshole. my mother's parents raised their 3 kids wonderfully. my mom had my brother at 17 and it was a shocker, especially since my grandfather counseled her and had rules in place to avoid a pregnancy at that time. it was such a shock to my grandfather that his anger caused my mom to bail. after a brief time, he saw that being angry was not the answer and that this child growing in my mother needed a family. so he begged her to come home, finish highschool and then marry the father. she did, and the marriage to the father did not work. i can personally attest to my grandfather and grandmother not only raising a great daughter, but also helping to raise her two boys.

my mom went on to finish her masters degree while raising two kids, one a special needs kid and one who turned out to be your nemesis with a law degree.

but i am sure jesus would approve of your holier than thou attitude and your cliam to be a better parent because you child did not get pregnant at 17. yes, i am sure this makes you a better person. the fallacy in your thinking is appalling and disgusting. but no surprise.

[Sitarro]

I certainly don't want my 19 year old daughter punished by having her future limited by an unwanted child. She has professional dreams and aspirations and she knows full well that succumbing to a moment of unprotected passion would jeopardize those dreams. It is why I have worked hard at instilling in my daughter the kinds of morals and sense of personal responsibility and accountability that has kept her from getting pregnant out of wedlock. If only the republican's nominee for vice president had been that diligent as a parent, perhaps HER 17 year old daughter would not be knocked up.

Maybe you don't know her as well as you think daddy. Has she ever introduced you to her really close, best, girlfriend? Tell me know it all, how do lesbian couples decide who will be inseminated?

[Sitarro]

I do understand that. And I have always taught my daughter that she should wait until marriage. Bottom line: my 19 year old daughter is an honors student at a top notch New England university and Sarah Palin's daughter is knocked up before she even graduates from high school. I would say that the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. I am a hell of a lot better parent than Sarah Palin could ever be. and I have three well adjusted, intelligent, civic minded children to prove it.

Have you taught them how to cook?

[red states rule]

I do understand that. And I have always taught my daughter that she should wait until marriage. Bottom line: my 19 year old daughter is an honors student at a top notch New England university and Sarah Palin's daughter is knocked up before she even graduates from high school. I would say that the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. I am a hell of a lot better parent than Sarah Palin could ever be. and I have three well adjusted, intelligent, civic minded children to prove it.

So you passed your arrogance and elitism onto to another generation. I do hope your kids are not the same hate filled prick you are

[Nukeman]

Maybe you don't know her as well as you think daddy. Has she ever introduced you to her really close, best, girlfriend? Tell me know it all, how do lesbian couples decide who will be inseminated?OK I seee a lot of stuff on this board but I really have to say this is takign it too far. I like almost all you post Sitarro! But this really isn't called for, even if you HATE MFM. We really shouldn't stoop to the level of the Dems.

[retiredman]

Maybe you don't know her as well as you think daddy. Has she ever introduced you to her really close, best, girlfriend? Tell me know it all, how do lesbian couples decide who will be inseminated?


beyond tasteless

[retiredman]

Have you taught them how to cook?

Of course. I have cooked together with all my children and they all enjoy cooking. My oldest son is really quite accomplished at it. why do you ask?

[red states rule]

beyond tasteless

Yes you are. No amount of mouthwash can remove your after taste

You can dish it out, but you have a very hard time taking it

[retiredman]

this has to be the most arrogant and elitist post i have read on this forum. you have no fucking clue about parents and whether their daughters get pregnant at 17 asshole. my mother's parents raised their 3 kids wonderfully. my mom had my brother at 17 and it was a shocker, especially since my grandfather counseled her and had rules in place to avoid a pregnancy at that time. it was such a shock to my grandfather that his anger caused my mom to bail. after a brief time, he saw that being angry was not the answer and that this child growing in my mother needed a family. so he begged her to come home, finish highschool and then marry the father. she did, and the marriage to the father did not work. i can personally attest to my grandfather and grandmother not only raising a great daughter, but also helping to raise her two boys.

my mom went on to finish her masters degree while raising two kids, one a special needs kid and one who turned out to be your nemesis with a law degree.

but i am sure jesus would approve of your holier than thou attitude and your cliam to be a better parent because you child did not get pregnant at 17. yes, i am sure this makes you a better person. the fallacy in your thinking is appalling and disgusting. but no surprise.

methinks you are letting your personal situation cloud your thinking. I am nost saying that the ONLY reason I am a better parent is because my daughter did not get pregnant. And I have certainly not said that my parenting makes me a better person. Again: it is humorous and ironic that the governor who pressed for abstinence only sex education in Alaska schools has her 17 year old daughter get knocked up. Unfortunate? Sad? absolutely....but humorously ironic? of course it is.

[red states rule]

methinks you are letting your personal situation cloud your thinking. I am nost saying that the ONLY reason I am a better parent is because my daughter did not get pregnant. And I have certainly not said that my parenting makes me a better person. Again: it is humorous and ironic that the governor who pressed for abstinence only sex education in Alaska schools has her 17 year old daughter get knocked up. Unfortunate? Sad? absolutely....but humorously ironic? of course it is.

You claim to me a preacher, so you do know you will go to Hell for lying - right?

[darin]

I certainly don't want my 19 year old daughter punished by having her future limited by an unwanted child. She has professional dreams and aspirations and she knows full well that succumbing to a moment of unprotected passion would jeopardize those dreams. It is why I have worked hard at instilling in my daughter the kinds of morals and sense of personal responsibility and accountability that has kept her from getting pregnant out of wedlock. If only the republican's nominee for vice president had been that diligent as a parent, perhaps HER 17 year old daughter would not be knocked up.

That is absolutely the most bullshit, worst thing for ANYONE claiming to be a 'pastor' to say. Holy God - dude...you're insane.

I notice you don't tell your daughter to 'not have sex' outside of marriage (which is the sin) - you just don't want her getting knocked up (which is not a sin).

You're a fool. You are an absolute fool. May GOD seriously - in all honesty have MERCY on your soul.


beyond tasteless



Lemme see here - you said you're raising her to 'not get pregnant' - what better way for her to not-get-pregnant than to have sex with only those of her gender? Also - what happened to liberals CELEBRATING diversity? You're saying it's INSULTING to your daughter (and to you) to make an insinuation of her sexual practices? YOU Brought up her sex life; you brought it into the discussion.

[Immanuel]

Maybe you don't know her as well as you think daddy. Has she ever introduced you to her really close, best, girlfriend? Tell me know it all, how do lesbian couples decide who will be inseminated?


OK I seee a lot of stuff on this board but I really have to say this is takign it too far. I like almost all you post Sitarro! But this really isn't called for, even if you HATE MFM. We really shouldn't stoop to the level of the Dems.


Yes you are. No amount of mouthwash can remove your after taste

You can dish it out, but you have a very hard time taking it

I have to agree with Nukeman. Sitarro's post went a bit too far. Most people here don't like MFM and that is understandable, but personally, I think the best road to take is the one that leaves the family members out of the batt... er war. And Nukeman is definitely right about not stooping to the level of some of the libs on this site.

Immie

[retiredman]

I am raising my daughter to be a moral and responsible adult. For some board member to insinuate that she is a lesbian is beyond the pale. I am, of course, not at all surprised that you would respond in such a way.

[Immanuel]

I am raising my daughter to be a moral and responsible adult. For some board member to insinuate that she is a lesbian is beyond the pale. I am, of course, not at all surprised that you would respond in such a way.

But, since you turned over a new leaf while preparing for Sunday's sermon, you are of course, going to forgive Sitarro before being asked and do the Godly thing.

It is so nice to have the new you here.

Immie

[darin]

I have to agree with Nukeman. Sitarro's post went a bit too far. Most people here don't like MFM and that is understandable, but personally, I think the best road to take is the one that leaves the family members out of the batt... er war. And Nukeman is definitely right about not stooping to the level of some of the libs on this site.

Immie

If I bring up the topic of my wife's breasts and people comment on what I say, would that be wrong? If I bring up my kids sex life, and people talk to my comments would that too be wrong of them? If somebody brought his family into the discussion out of the blue with something like "...and I bet YOUR kids are all GAY" I'd see your point. MFM brought his Daughter into the convo, saying he's taught her to practice sex while trying to prevent the punishment of a child. Sitarro speculated she could do so by being a lesbian.

I don't think it was super-out of line. 'course....since I'm involved here in this thread another staff member will make the final call. :)



I am raising my daughter to be a moral and responsible adult. For some board member to insinuate that she is a lesbian is beyond the pale. I am, of course, not at all surprised that you would respond in such a way.


I'll remember that - you saying a Lesbian cannot be moral nor responsible - during the next 'gay' thread.

[red states rule]

I have to agree with Nukeman. Sitarro's post went a bit too far. Most people here don't like MFM and that is understandable, but personally, I think the best road to take is the one that leaves the family members out of the batt... er war. And Nukeman is definitely right about not stooping to the level of some of the libs on this site.

Immie

MFM has gone much further. He was glad a members sister was dead. He has called another member a pedephile. He has talked about the joy he will experience when my cancer kills me and sends me to Hell

What Sitarro posted was very mild compared to what MFM has dished out

Now he goes into his role as the offended liberal who is being picked on

[darin]

MFM has gone much further. He was glad a members sister was dead. He has called another member a pedephile. He has talked about the joy he will experience when my cancer kills me and sends me to Hell

What Sitarro posted was very mild compared to what MFM has dished out

Now he goes into his role as the offended liberal who is being picked on

...that's the passive-aggressive :bs: I mentioned in another thread. He attacks and attacks and attacks but when called on his crap he tucks his tail and pretends he doesn't know where the hostility is coming from. After spending 3 years enlisted in the Navy Reserve, you'd think he'd take responsibility to SOME extent. I'm pretty sure an E3 in the Navy MUST have had SOME ability to be a grown up.

[red states rule]

...that's the passive-aggressive :bs: I mentioned in another thread. He attacks and attacks and attacks but when called on his crap he tucks his tail and pretends he doesn't know where the hostility is coming from. After spending 3 years enlisted in the Navy Reserve, you'd think he'd take responsibility to SOME extent. I'm pretty sure an E3 in the Navy MUST have had SOME ability to be a grown up.

Darin, MFM is the postor child for modern day liberals. He sprews his hate, and then wraps himself in his cloak of deception, and asks why people mistreat him

He is a blowhard who has lied constantly on every thread he has posted on.

He can't even tell the truth about who he has on ignore :laugh2:

[retiredman]

MFM brought his Daughter into the convo, saying he's taught her to practice sex while trying to prevent the punishment of a child. Sitarro speculated she could do so by being a lesbian.

I'll remember that - you saying a Lesbian cannot be moral nor responsible - during the next 'gay' thread.

I have never said that I taught my daughter to practice sex. that's a lie.

I have never said that lesbians cannot be moral or responsible. another lie.

[darin]

I have never said that I taught my daughter to practice sex. that's a lie.



I certainly don't want my 19 year old daughter punished by having her future limited by an unwanted child. She has professional dreams and aspirations and she knows full well that succumbing to a moment of unprotected passion would jeopardize those dreams


That means "She knows to succum to unprotected sex could get her knocked up". That means you've taught her to practice 'safer sex'. "safe" sex is still sex.



I have never said that lesbians cannot be moral or responsible. another lie.


I am raising my daughter to be a moral and responsible adult. For some board member to insinuate that she is a lesbian is beyond the pale

That means "I'm raising my daughter to be moral and responsible! how dare you call her a lesbian!" That means you don't believe a lesbian can be moral nor responsible. Pretty straight forward, I think.

[Immanuel]

If I bring up the topic of my wife's breasts and people comment on what I say, would that be wrong? If I bring up my kids sex life, and people talk to my comments would that too be wrong of them? If somebody brought his family into the discussion out of the blue with something like "...and I bet YOUR kids are all GAY" I'd see your point. MFM brought his Daughter into the convo, saying he's taught her to practice sex while trying to prevent the punishment of a child. Sitarro speculated she could do so by being a lesbian.

I don't think it was super-out of line. 'course....since I'm involved here in this thread another staff member will make the final call. :)



Many of us talk about our families and children on this site. As far as I am concerned that does not open our family members up to free for all :bs: attacks.


MFM has gone much further. He was glad a members sister was dead. He has called another member a pedephile. He has talked about the joy he will experience when my cancer kills me and sends me to Hell

What Sitarro posted was very mild compared to what MFM has dished out

Now he goes into his role as the offended liberal who is being picked on

I'm not and never have defended MFM's insults.

I might not bitch at him when he does it and I don't, because, I don't think it will do much good. Nor, do I bitch at you when you do, for the same reason. Sitarro and dmp are different... well... well... okay, maybe this time won't do any good, but still it was worth the shot. :D

Immie

[red states rule]

I have never said that I taught my daughter to practice sex. that's a lie.

I have never said that lesbians cannot be moral or responsible. another lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar4321
You do realize that having "protected" sex out of wedlock is not moral dont you? So much for teaching your daughter morality. However, her sins will be upon your head for failing to teach her truth.

I do understand that. And I have always taught my daughter that she should wait until marriage.



So who lied? It sure as hell was not DMP

So by the process of elimination it has to be you

[darin]

Many of us talk about our families and children on this site. As far as I am concerned that does not open our family members up to free for all :bs: attacks.




...being called a Lesbian is an insult? Really? He wasn't calling - he was making a tongue-in-cheek insinuation. (shrug).

[retiredman]

...that's the passive-aggressive :bs: I mentioned in another thread. He attacks and attacks and attacks but when called on his crap he tucks his tail and pretends he doesn't know where the hostility is coming from. After spending 3 years enlisted in the Navy Reserve, you'd think he'd take responsibility to SOME extent. I'm pretty sure an E3 in the Navy MUST have had SOME ability to be a grown up.


I am not attacking. you are darin. That's OK. I forgive you. I realize that you think you can get my goat by denigrating my service. that's fine. I understand your tactic and am willing to admit that it used to work. It won't work anymore, but feel free to continue to use it if you like.

I know where the hostility comes from...but I think it would be good for you to examine whether or not it existed in a two way street....to go back and see whether I was approached with hostility even as I was being hostile. For many interactions, it is difficult to go back and determine who started it... I only hope to make it easy to determine, in retrospect, who first started to stop it.

[Immanuel]

...being called a Lesbian is an insult? Really? He wasn't calling - he was making a tongue-in-cheek insinuation. (shrug).

It was intended as an insult... "you can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig". :D

Immie

[red states rule]

Many of us talk about our families and children on this site. As far as I am concerned that does not open our family members up to free for all :bs: attacks.



I'm not and never have defended MFM's insults.

I might not bitch at him when he does it and I don't, because, I don't think it will do much good. Nor, do I bitch at you when you do, for the same reason. Sitarro and dmp are different... well... well... okay, maybe this time won't do any good, but still it was worth the shot. :D

Immie

I can understand where you are coming from. MFM is a sniveling coward who hides behind a keyboard and brags how great he his

He would never have the guts to sprew his hate in person

He is a piss poor example of a "preacher". but I am confident that is another one of his lies as well

[darin]

It was intended as an insult... "you can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig". :D

Immie

...that was Obama saying "It doesn't matter how you sugar coat old ideas; they're still old ideas." :) I never thought he was trying to call The Honorable, Completely Sexy, Gov. Palin a pig. :)


I am not attacking. you are darin. That's OK. I forgive you. I realize that you think you can get my goat by denigrating my service. that's fine. I understand your tactic and am willing to admit that it used to work. It won't work anymore, but feel free to continue to use it if you like.

I know where the hostility comes from...but I think it would be good for you to examine whether or not it existed in a two way street....to go back and see whether I was approached with hostility even as I was being hostile. For many interactions, it is difficult to go back and determine who started it... I only hope to make it easy to determine, in retrospect, who first started to stop it.


what a crock of shit.

[red states rule]

...that was Obama saying "It doesn't matter how you sugar coat old ideas; they're still old ideas." :) I never thought he was trying to call The Honorable, Completely Sexy, Gov. Palin a pig. :)




what a crock of shit.

More shit then a sewage treatment plant

[Immanuel]

...that was Obama saying "It doesn't matter how you sugar coat old ideas; they're still old ideas." :) I never thought he was trying to call The Honorable, Completely Sexy, Gov. Palin a pig. :)


what a crock of shit.

Immie

[jimnyc]

Maybe you don't know her as well as you think daddy. Has she ever introduced you to her really close, best, girlfriend? Tell me know it all, how do lesbian couples decide who will be inseminated?


OK I seee a lot of stuff on this board but I really have to say this is takign it too far. I like almost all you post Sitarro! But this really isn't called for, even if you HATE MFM. We really shouldn't stoop to the level of the Dems.


beyond tasteless


I have to agree with Nukeman. Sitarro's post went a bit too far. Most people here don't like MFM and that is understandable, but personally, I think the best road to take is the one that leaves the family members out of the batt... er war. And Nukeman is definitely right about not stooping to the level of some of the libs on this site.

Immie


I am raising my daughter to be a moral and responsible adult. For some board member to insinuate that she is a lesbian is beyond the pale. I am, of course, not at all surprised that you would respond in such a way.


I don't think it was super-out of line. 'course....since I'm involved here in this thread another staff member will make the final call. :)

I think what was written is not the kind of posts we would like to be known for on DP. I think it pushed the limitations, and I believe messing with another persons family members should be off limits. MFM did open the door with his remarks, but it's his family, and just because he entered them does not mean others should use that opportunity to make light of them or mock them.

In order to remain impartial and to stay in line with prior punishments for similar actions, Sitarro is receiving a temp ban of 24hrs. Let's please move on from the fight and back to the OP subject.

[retiredman]

what a crock of shit.


I am sorry you feel that way, but not really surprised. That's OK darin... I still forgive you for your onslaught of insults. I really do.

[darin]

Immie

You think obama was calling her a pig?


I am sorry you feel that way, but not really surprised. That's OK darin... I still forgive you for your onslaught of insults. I really do.



/me looks around for his hip-waders....it's getting VERY deep.

[Immanuel]

You think obama was calling her a pig?



I think Obama was alluding to her joke about lipstick knowing full well that his audience would get the allusion and understand exactly what he meant.

Was he calling her a pig? No, but he was using the allusion to draw a picture in the minds of his audience.

Immie

[red states rule]

I think Obama was alluding to her joke about lipstick knowing full well that his audience would get the allusion and understand exactly what he meant.

Was he calling her a pig? No, but he was using the allusion to draw a picture in the minds of his audience.

Immie

It was clearly an insult toward Gov Palin. The left does this in every election. They smear, attack, and slime anyone who opposes them and disagrees with their beliefs

[retiredman]

I think Obama was alluding to her joke about lipstick knowing full well that his audience would get the allusion and understand exactly what he meant.

Was he calling her a pig? No, but he was using the allusion to draw a picture in the minds of his audience.

Immie

"lipstick on a pig" is a well worn idiom used by politicians all the time and certainly predates Sarah Palin's joke about hockey moms. The fact that "lipstick" is used in both the idiom and her joke ought not to prevent Obama or anyone else from using an idiom that perfectly describes John McCain's attempts to sell the same old republican policies that Americans have grown tired of as "change". That is putting lipstick on a pig... period.

[Immanuel]

"lipstick on a pig" is a well worn idiom used by politicians all the time and certainly predates Sarah Palin's joke about hockey moms. The fact that "lipstick" is used in both the idiom and her joke ought not to prevent Obama or anyone else from using an idiom that perfectly describes John McCain's attempts to sell the same old republican policies that Americans have grown tired of as "change". That is putting lipstick on a pig... period.

He knew full well where he was drawing his audience unless maybe he is an idiot.

Are you saying he's an idiot? No? I didn't think so.

And to go along with that, you will not find one single post of mine that says he can't use the idiom. I never said he could not use it or that he shouldn't use it, but for he or his supporters to claim that he wasn't alluding to her joke, is nothing short of deceitful.

Immie

[red states rule]

"lipstick on a pig" is a well worn idiom used by politicians all the time and certainly predates Sarah Palin's joke about hockey moms. The fact that "lipstick" is used in both the idiom and her joke ought not to prevent Obama or anyone else from using an idiom that perfectly describes John McCain's attempts to sell the same old republican policies that Americans have grown tired of as "change". That is putting lipstick on a pig... period.

If Americans are tired of the same old republican policies, why is Obama dropping int he polls? :laugh2:


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[retiredman]

He knew full well where he was drawing his audience unless maybe he is an idiot.

Are you saying he's an idiot? No? I didn't think so.

Immie


That is your interpretation Immie... you must make allowances that there may be other alternatives than the two you have presented. I am saying YOU are not idiot enough to think that there are only two possible interpretations. I think he wasn't thinking about Sarah Palin's hockey mom joke at all. He was using an idiom that he has used often in the past and one that McCain himself has used often in the past. When McCain used that idiom to describe Hillary's healthcare proposals, democrats did not erupt in faux outrage and demand that McCain apologize for calling Hillary a pig, did they? of course not.

[stephanie]

I certainly don't want my 19 year old daughter punished by having her future limited by an unwanted child. She has professional dreams and aspirations and she knows full well that succumbing to a moment of unprotected passion would jeopardize those dreams. It is why I have worked hard at instilling in my daughter the kinds of morals and sense of personal responsibility and accountability that has kept her from getting pregnant out of wedlock. If only the republican nominee for vice president had been that diligent as a parent, perhaps HER 17 year old daughter would not be knocked up.

you really are a pathetic little man..to keep dumping on a 17 yr. old girl to attact her mother as a candidate..

[darin]

...and Big F'ing DEAL if he called her a pig. I mean...Obama's "Change Mantra", lack of wisdom/experience, and socialist views are MUCH more offensive than a kindergarten insult - even if that is what it was.

[Yurt]

methinks you are letting your personal situation cloud your thinking. I am nost saying that the ONLY reason I am a better parent is because my daughter did not get pregnant. And I have certainly not said that my parenting makes me a better person. Again: it is humorous and ironic that the governor who pressed for abstinence only sex education in Alaska schools has her 17 year old daughter get knocked up. Unfortunate? Sad? absolutely....but humorously ironic? of course it is.

and if your 17 year daughter had become pregnant mfm, i am sure your thinking would be 'clouded' too....

i guess god is not that great of a 'god' since his followers keep sinning, despite the fact that he even sent his own son to die for our sins, i mean hey, he can't even control one little planet....and his creation cannot even follow 10 rules

you see, your logic is horribly wrong

[Immanuel]

That is your interpretation Immie... you must make allowances that there may be other alternatives than the two you have presented. I am saying YOU are not idiot enough to think that there are only two possible interpretations. I think he wasn't thinking about Sarah Palin's hockey mom joke at all. He was using an idiom that he has used often in the past and one that McCain himself has used often in the past. When McCain used that idiom to describe Hillary's healthcare proposals, democrats did not erupt in faux outrage and demand that McCain apologize for calling Hillary a pig, did they? of course not.

Let me repeat something I added to my last while you were typing this.




And to go along with that, you will not find one single post of mine that says he can't use the idiom. I never said he could not use it or that he shouldn't use it, but for he or his supporters to claim that he wasn't alluding to her joke, is nothing short of deceitful.



Immie

[retiredman]

Let me repeat something I added to my last while you were typing this.
Immie


I am not being deceitful and I resent your accusation thereof. I spoke honestly and from my heart.

[darin]

i've turned over a new leaf!!

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1380&stc=1&d=1221230790

[red states rule]

I am not being deceitful and I resent your accusation thereof. I spoke honestly and from my heart.

http://vomit.poyt.com/images/pumpkin.jpg

[Immanuel]

And no, I do not have to make allowances for the possibility that he might not mean what he meant. It was obvious what he was doing.

Also, in my book it was kind of funny. I did not find it insulting in the least. I laughed when I heard it the first time, because I understood what he was saying and I didn't think it was such a big deal.

In fact, I still think it is funny. But, I have a problem with the denial.

If Sarah Palin can't handle being called a pig, then she sure as hell can't handle being the Vice President of the United States of America let alone being a single heart beat away from the Presidency.

Immie

[Immanuel]

I am not being deceitful and I resent your accusation thereof. I spoke honestly and from my heart.

Oh well... you'll forgive me. :p And yes, I was absolutely aware of what I was alluding to there. :p :p

Immie

[red states rule]

And no, I do not have to make allowances for the possibility that he might not mean what he meant. It was obvious what he was doing.

Also, in my book it was kind of funny. I did not find it insulting in the least. I laughed when I heard it the first time, because I understood what he was saying and I didn't think it was such a big deal.

In fact, I still think it is funny. But, I have a problem with the denial.

If Sarah Palin can't handle being called a pig, then she sure as hell can't handle being the Vice President of the United States of America let alone being a single heart beat away from the Presidency.

Immie\

Libs are indeed ignoring everything they have said about women for the last 40 years - and it is amazing to watch

[darin]

If Sarah Palin can't handle...

...i'd give her something to handle...that vixen.

:D

[retiredman]

and if your 17 year daughter had become pregnant mfm, i am sure your thinking would be 'clouded' too....

i guess god is not that great of a 'god' since his followers keep sinning, despite the fact that he even sent his own son to die for our sins, i mean hey, he can't even control one little planet....and his creation cannot even follow 10 rules

you see, your logic is horribly wrong

God gives man free will, does he not? The point was: my daughter learned from her father and mother that life was too grand an adventure to limit it by bad choices early on in life. I strongly urged her to abstain from sexual activity and to focus on her schoolwork and her extracurricular volunteer work with special olympics and theraputic riding programs... she has done so. Clearly, the message did not stick so well for Sarah Palin's daughter... and we do not know whether that was because the daughter willfully chose to not listen, or because the message was not effectively delivered. Either way, I am sure that her mother feels as if she failed, in some way, to pass on her own values to her daughter, don't you agree?

I am aware that there are extraordinary women, like your mother, for example, who are able to overcome the daunting obstacles that early unwanted pregnancy places on a young woman. She is to be congratulated for her accomplishments and for yours as well. You must, however, admit that for the large majority of young mothers, their lives are constrained and their future is limited by that early pregnancy.

[Immanuel]

...i'd give her something to handle...that vixen.

:D

You aren't married are you? If so, shame on you! Oh, wait, maybe that wasn't an allusion to what it was an allusion to! :lol:

Immie

[Yurt]

God gives man free will, does he not? The point was: my daughter learned from her father and mother that life was too grand an adventure to limit it by bad choices early on in life. I strongly urged her to abstain from sexual activity and to focus on her schoolwork and her extracurricular volunteer work with special olympics and theraputic riding programs... she has done so. Clearly, the message did not stick so well for Sarah Palin's daughter... and we do not know whether that was because the daughter willfully chose to not listen, or because the message was not effectively delivered. Either way, I am sure that her mother feels as if she failed, in some way, to pass on her own values to her daughter, don't you agree?

I am aware that there are extraordinary women, like your mother, for example, who are able to overcome the daunting obstacles that early unwanted pregnancy places on a young woman. She is to be congratulated for her accomplishments and for yours as well. You must, however, admit that for the large majority of young mothers, their lives are constrained and their future is limited by that early pregnancy.

then you did not give your daughter free will? you took away her free will that god gives us?

i do not dispute that in our current society that an early pregnancy not planned and without a dad is a 'great' thing. i never advocated that.

[retiredman]

then you did not give your daughter free will? you took away her free will that god gives us?

i do not dispute that in our current society that an early pregnancy not planned and without a dad is a 'great' thing. i never advocated that.

Of course I never denied my daughter free will. I gave her roots and wings and a conscience and morals... she is free to do what she wants with all of them.

I pointed out that an unwed pregnant teenaged girl has got to be viewed by the parents as a failure on their part to impart those same values. I know I would feel that I had failed my daughter if she were in that situation.

[stephanie]

Of course I never denied my daughter free will. I gave her roots and wings and a conscience and morals... she is free to do what she wants with all of them.

I pointed out that an unwed pregnant teenaged girl has got to be viewed by the parents as a failure on their part to impart those same values. I know I would feel that I had failed my daughter if she were in that situation.

Well that's good..so we can call the Obambams parents FAILURES..

[Yurt]

Of course I never denied my daughter free will. I gave her roots and wings and a conscience and morals... she is free to do what she wants with all of them.

I pointed out that an unwed pregnant teenaged girl has got to be viewed by the parents as a failure on their part to impart those same values. I know I would feel that I had failed my daughter if she were in that situation.

so god, as our heavenly father, must be a failure if he can't even convince us, after having his son die for our sins, to keep a mere 10 little rules.

this is your logic and it is not right mfm. did god view adam and eve's, his first children, sin/wrong a failure on His part?

[retiredman]

so god, as our heavenly father, must be a failure if he can't even convince us, after having his son die for our sins, to keep a mere 10 little rules.

this is your logic and it is not right mfm. did god view adam and eve's, his first children, sin/wrong a failure on His part?

god gives us free will. period. I give my children free will as well. I also give them years of parental instruction on everything from how to use the toilet to how to ride a bike to how to tie their shoe to how to be responsible adults...and then I let them fly away and go BE responsible adults. Thankfully, all three of my children have done so quite well. Is that to MY credit or to theirs? Both, I would say....and I think that all three would agree with that.

And I have absolutely no idea how God viewed the fall from grace in the garden of eden.... nor do you.

[Yurt]

god gives us free will. period. I give my children free will as well. I also give them years of parental instruction on everything from how to use the toilet to how to ride a bike to how to tie their shoe to how to be responsible adults...and then I let them fly away and go BE responsible adults. Thankfully, all three of my children have done so quite well. Is that to MY credit or to theirs? Both, I would say....and I think that all three would agree with that.

And I have absolutely no idea how God viewed the fall from grace in the garden of eden.... nor do you.

why can't you specifically address the part about us continuing to sin? i'll accept the answer to the garden part, that is subjective unto God. but according to your logic, god must be a bad parent since his followers continue to sin. he can't control this tiny planet and he is supposed to be omnipotent.

you said sarah is not a good mother and you are a better parent because you child did not get pregnant (e.g., sin).

[retiredman]

why can't you specifically address the part about us continuing to sin? i'll accept the answer to the garden part, that is subjective unto God. but according to your logic, god must be a bad parent since his followers continue to sin. he can't control this tiny planet and he is supposed to be omnipotent.

you said sarah is not a good mother and you are a better parent because you child did not get pregnant (e.g., sin).

He is omnipotent...If he wanted to control us, he certainly could.

Rather, in His all knowing way, He has given us free will.

and He has also given us His son as an example of how we should live our lives.

I would further suggest that Sarah Palin herself considered her daughter's unwanted pregnancy out of wedlock to be a personal failure at some level. I know that I would.

[Yurt]

He is omnipotent...If he wanted to control us, he certainly could.

Rather, in His all knowing way, He has given us free will.

and He has also given us His son as an example of how we should live our lives.

I would further suggest that Sarah Palin herself considered her daughter's unwanted pregnancy out of wedlock to be a personal failure at some level. I know that I would.

you see, you just spoke for palin, but refuse to do so for obama....:laugh2:

and you still refuse to answer the question regarding god and his failure to raise us perfectly. your logic is that sarah is less of a parent than you because your daughter did not "sin." then god is not a perfect god if his children sin.

[darin]

I would further suggest that Sarah Palin herself considered her daughter's unwanted pregnancy out of wedlock to be a personal failure at some level. I know that I would.

Point of order - the pregnancy is NOT unwanted. Just un planned. The failure is NOT the pregnancy, it's the fornication...which has likely been forgiven...so it's as if it never existed. the only failure - the ONLY failure is you and people like you who harp against a non-issue with the only goal of trying to dig at or hurt Gov. Palin.

Gov. Palin's daughter hasn't sinned ANY MORE than your own daughter has sinned in her life. In fact, the gov'nors daughter has the BLESSING of bringing a child into the world. :) Theologians and Clergy would know that.

[Immanuel]

[G]od gives us free will. period.

I know you are not Lutheran. But, to add a little to this discussion, did you know that Luther and other Reformation Era Church Leaders as well, I am sure, as other church leaders, would disagree with your statement?

Do you know why they would diagree with that statement, pastor?

Do they call you pastor at your church?



And I have absolutely no idea how God viewed the fall from grace in the garden of eden.... nor do you.

Good answer. God knew it was coming right? Was Christ in his plan before the Fall?

Immie

[darin]

I know you are not Lutheran. But, to add a little to this discussion, did you know that Luther and other Reformation Era Church Leaders as well, I am sure, as other church leaders, would disagree with your statement?

Do you know why they would diagree with that statement, pastor?

Do they call you pastor at your church?




Calvinism is completely Anti-God/Christianity. :(

[Immanuel]

Calvinism is completely Anti-God/Christianity. :(

It's not Calvinism and you might try reading where Martin Luther was coming from before you make such a statement. Because, in fact, Martin Luther is right.

Martin Luther stated that we do not have free will, because if we had free will we could choose to be holy as God is holy. We are all sinners and cannot so choose. So, in fact, we do not have free will. With Free Will, I myself would choose to be sinless. I cannot choose to be good and without that choice, I do not have Free Will.

Immie

[retiredman]

Point of order - the pregnancy is NOT unwanted. Just un planned. The failure is NOT the pregnancy, it's the fornication...which has likely been forgiven...so it's as if it never existed. the only failure - the ONLY failure is you and people like you who harp against a non-issue with the only goal of trying to dig at or hurt Gov. Palin.

Gov. Palin's daughter hasn't sinned ANY MORE than your own daughter has sinned in her life. In fact, the gov'nors daughter has the BLESSING of bringing a child into the world. :) Theologians and Clergy would know that.


the failure is the fornication, without doubt.

And please...unless you know something about my daughter that I don't, please do not slander her by saying that she has sinned to the degree that Bristol Palin has.

also... changing my screen name into an insult is really uncalled for, and I would suggest not very moderate. I am trying not to insult you... and I would ask that perhaps, given your status on here, that you might make a similar effort with regards to our conversations.

[retiredman]

I know you are not Lutheran. But, to add a little to this discussion, did you know that Luther and other Reformation Era Church Leaders as well, I am sure, as other church leaders, would disagree with your statement?

Do you know why they would diagree with that statement, pastor?

Do they call you pastor at your church?




Good answer. God knew it was coming right? Was Christ in his plan before the Fall?

Immie

the argument of predestination versus free will or even versus double predestination has been waged for centuries in the protestant denominations.

and yes, some do call me pastor.

In answer to your question about whether God knew that Adam and Eve would fall from grace before hand, I would say again, that I have no idea what God knew or didn't know and would never pretend to presume otherwise.

[darin]

the failure is the fornication, without doubt.


So quit harping on the Pregnacy.



And please...unless you know something about my daughter that I don't, please do not slander her by saying that she has sinned to the degree that Bristol Palin has.


Holy GOD are that much of an arrogant prick? Has your daughter never sinned? You are REALLY 'grading' sin? And you call yourself a PASTOR or allow others to call you 'pastor'??? Sin is Sin. The only people who Grade sin are folks looking to justify and feel better about themselves.


also... changing my screen name into an insult is really uncalled for, and I would suggest not very moderate. I am trying not to insult you... and I would ask that perhaps, given your status on here, that you might make a similar effort with regards to our conversations.

Stop lying. That's solve it.

[Immanuel]

For dmp and any others who are interested.

I found this an interesting read:

http://www.covenanter.org/Luther/Bondage/bowpt1.html

Sect. XLI. - AND, first of all, let us begin regularly with your definition: according to which, you define "Free-will" thus,

- "Moreover I consider Free-will in this light: that it is a power in the human will, by which, a man may apply himself to those things which lead unto eternal salvation, or turn away from the same." -

Immie

[Immanuel]

In answer to your question about whether God knew that Adam and Eve would fall from grace before hand, I would say again, that I have no idea what God knew or didn't know and would never pretend to presume otherwise.

Well, the question was asked to spark debate. As a pastor, what does the UCC teach about Christ? Is Christ God? Was he there at the time of creation? Did God decide to become Christ after the fall? Is Christ just a man?

I'm curious what the UCC teaches about Jesus Christ.

Immie

[retiredman]

So quit harping on the Pregnacy.



Holy GOD are that much of an arrogant prick? Has your daughter never sinned? You are REALLY 'grading' sin? And you call yourself a PASTOR or allow others to call you 'pastor'??? Sin is Sin. The only people who Grade sin are folks looking to justify and feel better about themselves.



Stop lying. That's solve it.

the pregnancy is the visible and lasting proof of the sin of fornication.

You were implying that my daughter had engaged in fornication and I find that to be repugnant for you to say.

I am not lying. start acting like a grown up.

[darin]

the pregnancy is the visible and lasting proof of the sin of fornication.

If she's saught forgiveness, she's blameless. The baby is the visible and lasting Proof of God's blessing.




You were implying that my daughter had engaged in fornication and I find that to be repugnant for you to say.


No I wasn't. I said if your daughter has EVER sinned, she's no better than Palin's daughter, and therefore you are no better of a parent than Palin. Therefore, to cotinually point out the daughters "sin" of fornication makes you a dickhead. :)

Can't your ego handle the truth? My kids have sinned. I've sinned. So what? It's only relfective of our human nature.


I am not lying. start acting like a grown up.

Then stop lying. Liar.

[Abbey Marie]

Isn't it the libs who always rant that teen sex is inevitable, hence the need to hand out condoms at school?

[Yurt]

you see, you just spoke for palin, but refuse to do so for obama....:laugh2:

and you still refuse to answer the question regarding god and his failure to raise us perfectly. your logic is that sarah is less of a parent than you because your daughter did not "sin." then god is not a perfect god if his children sin.

i see mfm clings to his old habit of demanding others answer his questions but refusing to answer others...

[KitchenKitten99]

this has to be the most arrogant and elitist post i have read on this forum. you have no fucking clue about parents and whether their daughters get pregnant at 17 asshole. my mother's parents raised their 3 kids wonderfully. my mom had my brother at 17 and it was a shocker, especially since my grandfather counseled her and had rules in place to avoid a pregnancy at that time. it was such a shock to my grandfather that his anger caused my mom to bail. after a brief time, he saw that being angry was not the answer and that this child growing in my mother needed a family. so he begged her to come home, finish highschool and then marry the father. she did, and the marriage to the father did not work. i can personally attest to my grandfather and grandmother not only raising a great daughter, but also helping to raise her two boys.

my mom went on to finish her masters degree while raising two kids, one a special needs kid and one who turned out to be your nemesis with a law degree.

but i am sure jesus would approve of your holier than thou attitude and your cliam to be a better parent because you child did not get pregnant at 17. yes, i am sure this makes you a better person. the fallacy in your thinking is appalling and disgusting. but no surprise.

My mother was 16 when I was born. I saw the stuff firsthand, what she had to go through as a teen parent. It was probably the best form of birth control for me.

[Immanuel]

i see mfm clings to his old habit of demanding others answer his questions but refusing to answer others...

I thought that was a liberal habit.

I find that I am constantly answering questions when they are thrown at me by the liberals and yet, I rarely get an answer to my questions and when I do get an answer it usually is not complete or skimmed over or I don't know.

Immie

[Yurt]

I thought that was a liberal habit.

I find that I am constantly answering questions when they are thrown at me by the liberals and yet, I rarely get an answer to my questions and when I do get an answer it usually is not complete or skimmed over or I don't know.

Immie

true, it is, however, mfm frequently gets upset at people when they (either true or not) do not answer his questions, he continues to demand they do so (repeatedly) and then chastises them when they don't. that is hypocritical.

[Immanuel]

true, it is, however, mfm frequently gets upset at people when they (either true or not) do not answer his questions, he continues to demand they do so (repeatedly) and then chastises them when they don't. that is hypocritical.

Well, I always considered that part of the issue.

A friend of mine (not MFM) but another liberal poster on this site, used to do that to me all the time. She would completely ignore my question and then demand that I answer hers and then if I said answer mine first she'd ignore it and continue insisting that I answer hers and have the "balls" to get mad at me for not answering her question. Talk about frustrating.

And yes, my friend, you know I am talking about you. :laugh2:

Immie

[Trigg]

the pregnancy is the visible and lasting proof of the sin of fornication.

This coming from the man who CONTINUOUSLY calls people the most disgusting names in the book??????

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[retiredman]

This coming from the man who CONTINUOUSLY calls people the most disgusting names in the book??????

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I didn't get anyone pregnant out of wedlock...my daughter has not gotten pregnant out of wedlock. I feel comfortable in criticizing Sarah Palin's parenting results on this issue.

[retiredman]

If she's saught forgiveness, she's blameless. The baby is the visible and lasting Proof of God's blessing.



No I wasn't. I said if your daughter has EVER sinned, she's no better than Palin's daughter, and therefore you are no better of a parent than Palin. Therefore, to cotinually point out the daughters "sin" of fornication makes you a dickhead. :)

Can't your ego handle the truth? My kids have sinned. I've sinned. So what? It's only relfective of our human nature.



Then stop lying. Liar.


we ALL have sinned. That goes without saying. The fact remains, One of the results of Palin's parenting is a 17 year old unmarried pregnant daughter.

And I am not lying.

[darin]

I didn't get anyone pregnant out of wedlock...my daughter has not gotten pregnant out of wedlock. I feel comfortable in criticizing Sarah Palin's parenting results on this issue.

because your children have never sinned...because nobody in your congregation has ever sinned.

You display nasty sinful behaviour here, then criticize Sarah Palin for HER DAUGHTER'S CHOICE to have sex outside of marriage. Should I criticize your Mom for the sins you've surely committed? Is that the role of a Pastor, or even a Christian, or hell, even a DECENT human being?

Keep in mind - Getting PREGNANT is NOT a sin. You've already agreed; so at least say the right thing.



we ALL have sinned. That goes without saying. The fact remains, One of the results of Palin's parenting is a 17 year old unmarried pregnant daughter.


And the result of your parents' parenting is what? What sins have you committed we can blame others for?




And I am not lying.

Dude - a portion of everything you write here is a lie.

[retiredman]

you see, you just spoke for palin, but refuse to do so for obama....:laugh2:

and you still refuse to answer the question regarding god and his failure to raise us perfectly. your logic is that sarah is less of a parent than you because your daughter did not "sin." then god is not a perfect god if his children sin.

Our sin is not a result of God's failure, but of our own free will. I do not think that Sarah Palin is LESS of a parent than I am...I think that the results of her parenting show that parenting to be, in this instance, less effective than mine.

Like I said...I gave all of my kids roots and wings... morals and a conscience... now that they are all of legal age, they are free to do whatever they wish with any of it. When they were in my house, I had more control than I do now....but given the way my kids have all turned out, I really have no worries about how they will live their lives.

[retiredman]

because your children have never sinned...because nobody in your congregation has ever sinned.
LIE. I never said that or even implied it.
You display nasty sinful behaviour here, then criticize Sarah Palin for HER DAUGHTER'S CHOICE to have sex outside of marriage. Should I criticize your Mom for the sins you've surely committed? Is that the role of a Pastor, or even a Christian, or hell, even a DECENT human being?
criticize my Mom all you want. She'll never read this and, even if she did, would care less about your opinion of her. As I said, one of the results of Palin's parenting is a pregnant unwed daughter.
Keep in mind - Getting PREGNANT is NOT a sin. You've already agreed; so at least say the right thing.
Getting pregnant out of wedlock is the visible proof of the sin of fornication, is it not?
And the result of your parents' parenting is what? What sins have you committed we can blame others for?
When I was 17, I committed a few sins, that's for sure...and I suppose my parents would have been held accountable in some way if any of them had resulted in harm or damage. Once I became an adult, there is really no one to blame for my sins but me.
Dude - a portion of everything you write here is a lie.
that is simply not true. Just because you don't AGREE with my point of view darin, does not make my point of view a LIE. sorry....dude.:laugh2:

[Silver]

Our sin is not a result of God's failure, but of our own free will. I do not think that Sarah Palin is LESS of a parent than I am...I think that the results of her parenting show that parenting to be, in this instance, less effective than mine.

Like I said...I gave all of my kids roots and wings... morals and a conscience... now that they are all of legal age, they are free to do whatever they wish with any of it. When they were in my house, I had more control than I do now....but given the way my kids have all turned out, I really have no worries about how they will live their lives.

Interesting....being in your position in the UCC

How do you feel about Robert Kennedy's parents?...Since he was arrested in possession of HEROIN ....

How about Al and Tipper Gore.....since their son was arrested TWICE in possession of drugs.....

How about Bill Clintons parents....his brother was arrested in possession of drugs .....

These parents must really suck in your eyes....

How about your parents? , you being such a disgusting bastard and all...

[darin]

blah blah blah.


But there were also lying prophets among the people then, (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%202%20;&version=65;) just as there will be lying religious teachers among you...They've put themselves on a fast downhill slide to destruction, but not before they recruit a crowd of mixed-up followers who can't tell right from wrong. They give the way of truth a bad name. They're only out for themselves....God is especially incensed against these "teachers" who live by lust, addicted to a filthy existence. They despise interference from true authority, preferring to indulge in self-rule. Insolent egotists, they don't hesitate to speak evil against the most splendid of creatures. Even angels, their superiors in every way, wouldn't think of throwing their weight around like that, trying to slander others before God.
These people are nothing but brute beasts, born in the wild, predators on the prowl.



because your children have never sinned...because nobody in your congregation has ever sinned.

LIE. I never said that or even implied it.

When you chastize Ms. Palin for her daughter's sin, you imply your own child does not sin. I've called you on it twice in this thread. Everyone reading this thread has seen it. Everyone knows you're being a hypocrit.


You display nasty sinful behaviour here, then criticize Sarah Palin for HER DAUGHTER'S CHOICE to have sex outside of marriage. Should I criticize your Mom for the sins you've surely committed? Is that the role of a Pastor, or even a Christian, or hell, even a DECENT human being?


criticize my Mom all you want. She'll never read this and, even if she did, would care less about your opinion of her. As I said, one of the results of Palin's parenting is a pregnant unwed daughter.

I CANT because I know your sins are not her fault. See? I 'get it'. You, OTOH are a fool.


Keep in mind - Getting PREGNANT is NOT a sin. You've already agreed; so at least say the right thing.


Getting pregnant out of wedlock is the visible proof of the sin of fornication, is it not?

but it's NOT the sin. Children are a BLESSING from God. They are not 'a sin'. The fornication - at the VERY MOMENT she's asked forgiveness, has NEVER HAPPENED. Her biological consequence is beside the point. ANYONE leading ANY sort of congregation would know this. Seriously. I went to Bible school for one semester and I know it. What's wrong with you? Oh! I know...you're a liar and not who you say, perhaps?




And the result of your parents' parenting is what? What sins have you committed we can blame others for?
When I was 17, I committed a few sins, that's for sure...and I suppose my parents would have been held accountable in some way if any of them had resulted in harm or damage. Once I became an adult, there is really no one to blame for my sins but me.

If ANYTHING isn't your fault, you are not to blame. The fact that you SINNED period at age 17 means YOU are solely to blame - you're the one who claimed God gives us free will.



Dude - a portion of everything you write here is a lie.

that is simply not true. Just because you don't AGREE with my point of view darin, does not make my point of view a LIE. sorry....dude.:laugh2:

You words make your lies - not my disaggreement.

[retiredman]

blah blah blah.

what else ya got, big shooter? :lol:

[Silver]

Enough dmp.....no sport in kicking a moron when hes down.....

[Yurt]

Our sin is not a result of God's failure, but of our own free will. I do not think that Sarah Palin is LESS of a parent than I am...I think that the results of her parenting show that parenting to be, in this instance, less effective than mine.

Like I said...I gave all of my kids roots and wings... morals and a conscience... now that they are all of legal age, they are free to do whatever they wish with any of it. When they were in my house, I had more control than I do now....but given the way my kids have all turned out, I really have no worries about how they will live their lives.

if our sin is not a result of God's failure, then palin's child's pregnancy is not a result of any failure on her part. i am glad you admit she is not less of a parent than you. if our sin has nothign to do with God's "parenting" and nothing to do with his failure, unless you have direct proof that palin failed to raise her kids with her beliefs, e.g., family values and that she in fact taught them the opposite, then palin's parenting cannot be said to be any less effective, ggiven that our sins are not a reflection upon God, rather a reflection on our free will. her daughter had free will, disregarded her mom's teaching.

thus, you cannot claim any moral highground over palin or consider her parenting any less effective than yours, it is merely a chance of choice, her kid chose something that yours did not.

do you agree? if not, how do you reconcile that with the belief that god is not less effective for our sins?

[darin]

if our sin is not a result of God's failure, then palin's child's pregnancy is not a result of any failure on her part. i am glad you admit she is not less of a parent than you. if our sin has nothign to do with God's "parenting" and nothing to do with his failure, unless you have direct proof that palin failed to raise her kids with her beliefs, e.g., family values and that she in fact taught them the opposite, then palin's parenting cannot be said to be any less effective, given that our sins are not a reflection upon God, rather a reflection on our free will. her daughter had free will, disregarded her mom's teaching.

thus, you cannot claim any moral highground over palin or consider her parenting any less effective than yours, it is merely a chance of choice, her kid chose something that yours did not.

do you agree? if not, how do you reconcile that with the belief that god is not less effective for our sins?


Dude...seriously, that's wayyyyyyyyyyyyy over his head. Dumb it down a little. :salute:

[retiredman]

When you chastize Ms. Palin for her daughter's sin, you imply your own child does not sin. I've called you on it twice in this thread. Everyone reading this thread has seen it. Everyone knows you're being a hypocrit.


I make no such implication.


I CANT because I know your sins are not her fault. See? I 'get it'. You, OTOH are a fool.


but my sins as a child would have been something that MY mother would have seen at some level as a HER failure to raise me right...as I would feel about my children's sins


but it's NOT the sin. Children are a BLESSING from God. They are not 'a sin'. The fornication - at the VERY MOMENT she's asked forgiveness, has NEVER HAPPENED. Her biological consequence is beside the point. ANYONE leading ANY sort of congregation would know this. Seriously. I went to Bible school for one semester and I know it. What's wrong with you? Oh! I know...you're a liar and not who you say, perhaps?

I am not a liar. Bristol Palin got pregnant. That is a fact. How do YOU know that she has asked God for forgiveness?



If ANYTHING isn't your fault, you are not to blame. The fact that you SINNED period at age 17 means YOU are solely to blame - you're the one who claimed God gives us free will.


and God gives me the free will to decide how actively engaged in the lives of my children I become and remain. Most parents that I know consider raising children to be their responsibility. I take that responsibility very seriously. So did my parents. I am sure that Sarah Palin does too.



You words make your lies - not my disaggreement.

there are no lies....merely statements you don't agree with. I try very hard to speak truth.

[Abbey Marie]

Evidence of Palins' good parenting:
Her daughter chose to not kill the baby, though that would have been the easy way out in the short term.

Evidence of Palin's consistency/lack of hypocrisy:
Though parents have a large influence on their child's life, peers, schools, and the media also play a large role. Perhaps her child wouldn't have gotten pregnant if every TV show, magazine, song, school, and liberal, didn't treat premarital sex like a foregone conclusion. She wants abstinence taught in the schools for this very reason.

[Immanuel]

Evidence of Palins' good parenting:
Her daughter chose to not kill the baby, though that would have been the easy way out in the short term.

Evidence of Palin's consistency/lack of hypocrisy:
Though parents have a large influence on their child's life, peers, schools, and the media also play a large role. Perhaps her child wouldn't have gotten pregnant if every TV show, magazine, song, school, and liberal, didn't treat premarital sex like a foregone conclusion. She wants abstinence taught in the schools for this very reason.

Would have repped you for this, but I have to spread the love.

Immie

[darin]

I make no such implication.



Liar.


but my sins as a child would have been something that MY mother would have seen at some level as a HER failure to raise me right...as I would feel about my children's sins


Now you're changing it. Either the kids' sin is the fault of the parents or it's not. At the moment sin happens, it's only because the individual decided to do wrong. Arguing with you is crazy because you're circular logic and bad reasoning.


I am not a liar. Bristol Palin got pregnant. That is a fact. How do YOU know that she has asked God for forgiveness?


How do you know she has not? You ASSume she has not, or, you're ignorant in how Forgiveness works.



and God gives me the free will to decide how actively engaged in the lives of my children I become and remain. Most parents that I know consider raising children to be their responsibility. I take that responsibility very seriously. So did my parents. I am sure that Sarah Palin does too.

Wha? It's like I'm arguing with a crazy person.




there are no lies....merely statements you don't agree with. I try very hard to speak truth.

You lie on this board EVERY DAY. Don't play coy.

[retiredman]

Liar.
I am not a liar. Please quit slandering my integrity. I made no such implication. I am sure my children... my daughter...has sinned. I feel culpable in some way for her behavior, because it reflects my teaching. I have never suggested otherwise.
Now you're changing it. Either the kids' sin is the fault of the parents or it's not. At the moment sin happens, it's only because the individual decided to do wrong. Arguing with you is crazy because you're circular logic and bad reasoning.
Are you suggesting that fault cannot be shared? Of course it was Bristol who fornicated...that sin is hers... the fault can be shared by her parents, and I believe it should be. I know I would feel a deep sense of personal failure if my daughter were to have gotten pregnant at age 17, that is for sure.
How do you know she has not? You ASSume she has not, or, you're ignorant in how Forgiveness works.
you are the one who is ASSuming that she has. You have no basis to make that ASSumption
You lie on this board EVERY DAY. Don't play coy.
I do not. I try very hard to always speak the truth. YOu disagree with my point of view...that does not make me a liar.

[Yurt]

if our sin is not a result of God's failure, then palin's child's pregnancy is not a result of any failure on her part. i am glad you admit she is not less of a parent than you. if our sin has nothign to do with God's "parenting" and nothing to do with his failure, unless you have direct proof that palin failed to raise her kids with her beliefs, e.g., family values and that she in fact taught them the opposite, then palin's parenting cannot be said to be any less effective, ggiven that our sins are not a reflection upon God, rather a reflection on our free will. her daughter had free will, disregarded her mom's teaching.

thus, you cannot claim any moral highground over palin or consider her parenting any less effective than yours, it is merely a chance of choice, her kid chose something that yours did not.

do you agree? if not, how do you reconcile that with the belief that god is not less effective for our sins?


Dude...seriously, that's wayyyyyyyyyyyyy over his head. Dumb it down a little. :salute:

i wonder why he has not addressed the post

[retiredman]

if our sin is not a result of God's failure, then palin's child's pregnancy is not a result of any failure on her part. i am glad you admit she is not less of a parent than you. if our sin has nothign to do with God's "parenting" and nothing to do with his failure, unless you have direct proof that palin failed to raise her kids with her beliefs, e.g., family values and that she in fact taught them the opposite, then palin's parenting cannot be said to be any less effective, ggiven that our sins are not a reflection upon God, rather a reflection on our free will. her daughter had free will, disregarded her mom's teaching.

thus, you cannot claim any moral highground over palin or consider her parenting any less effective than yours, it is merely a chance of choice, her kid chose something that yours did not.

do you agree? if not, how do you reconcile that with the belief that god is not less effective for our sins?

her daughter made a choice to fornicate. my daughter has not made that choice. Palin's daughter may have disregarded her mother's strong teachings, or her mother's teaching may not have been strong. Clearly, Palin and her husband were not effective in teaching their daughter to "honor her father and her mother".

[retiredman]

i wonder why he has not addressed the post

I missed #94...did not see it until it was quoted in #101

[Yurt]

I missed #94...did not see it until it was quoted in #101

got it, i do that too

[Yurt]

her daughter made a choice to fornicate. my daughter has not made that choice. Palin's daughter may have disregarded her mother's strong teachings, or her mother's teaching may not have been strong. Clearly, Palin and her husband were not effective in teaching their daughter to "honor her father and her mother".

let us try this again....

i am merely going to rephrase the above below:

humans made a choice to fornicate. my daughter has not made that choice. god's children may have disregarded thier god's strong teachings, or god's teaching may not have been strong. Clearly, god is not effective in teaching us to "honor her father and her mother" or to obey his commandments.

[retiredman]

let us try this again....

i am merely going to rephrase the above below:

humans made a choice to fornicate. my daughter has not made that choice. god's children may have disregarded thier god's strong teachings, or god's teaching may not have been strong. Clearly, god is not effective in teaching us to "honor her father and her mother" or to obey his commandments.

I would not compare humans to God. I'm sorry.

[darin]

I would not compare humans to God. I'm sorry.

Christian pastors should know Jesus is fully human (or was, until ascension). But why would you even bring that up? Your reply to Yurt was clearly off topic. Is that your MO - Change the subject when facing questions you can't answer?

Yurt spoke of a FATHER and MOTHER relationship to their kids - which is the MODEL of God's relationship to us.

[Yurt]

if our sin is not a result of God's failure, then palin's child's pregnancy is not a result of any failure on her part. i am glad you admit she is not less of a parent than you. if our sin has nothign to do with God's "parenting" and nothing to do with his failure, unless you have direct proof that palin failed to raise her kids with her beliefs, e.g., family values and that she in fact taught them the opposite, then palin's parenting cannot be said to be any less effective, ggiven that our sins are not a reflection upon God, rather a reflection on our free will. her daughter had free will, disregarded her mom's teaching.

thus, you cannot claim any moral highground over palin or consider her parenting any less effective than yours, it is merely a chance of choice, her kid chose something that yours did not.

do you agree? if not, how do you reconcile that with the belief that god is not less effective for our sins?


I would not compare humans to God. I'm sorry.

:lame2:

who created us? who established the mother/father relationship? i can't believe you wussed out. after five attempts this is all we get? Do we not pray to our Heavenly Father who art in heaven?

2 Corinthians 6:17-18
17 "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you." 18 "I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."

2 Corinthians 7
1Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.


the analogy is effective, so much so that your only way to remain "right" is to simply dismiss the analogy. you do know what an analogy is, don't you? i would daresay that it is not palin who is the lightweight as you claim, rather, it is you.

:dance:

[retiredman]

:lame2:

who created us? who established the mother/father relationship? i can't believe you wussed out. after five attempts this is all we get? Do we not pray to our Heavenly Father who art in heaven?

2 Corinthians 6:17-18
17 "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you." 18 "I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."

2 Corinthians 7
1Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.


the analogy is effective, so much so that your only way to remain "right" is to simply dismiss the analogy. you do know what an analogy is, don't you? i would daresay that it is not palin who is the lightweight as you claim, rather, it is you.

:dance:

I understand what an analogy means, yurt. Please stop being so insultingly dismissive. I just do not think that considering God a failure for our free will is the same as the actions of a human parent and their lack of effectiveness. God does not fail at anything. Humans fail all the time. Sometimes humans fail as parents.

[CockySOB]

her daughter made a choice to fornicate. my daughter has not made that choice. Palin's daughter may have disregarded her mother's strong teachings, or her mother's teaching may not have been strong. Clearly, Palin and her husband were not effective in teaching their daughter to "honor her father and her mother".

You might want to go back and visit Matthew 7:5 again. You need to tend to your own failings before you go "tending" to others' problems. Also, I'd recommend a revisiting of Matthew 15, paying special heed to those bearing false witness and other evils, spoken by the mouth yet spawned of evil heart and intention.

The more you post MFM, the more you reveal yourself as being apostate. I pity you.

[Yurt]

if our sin is not a result of God's failure, then palin's child's pregnancy is not a result of any failure on her part. i am glad you admit she is not less of a parent than you. if our sin has nothign to do with God's "parenting" and nothing to do with his failure, unless you have direct proof that palin failed to raise her kids with her beliefs, e.g., family values and that she in fact taught them the opposite, then palin's parenting cannot be said to be any less effective, ggiven that our sins are not a reflection upon God, rather a reflection on our free will. her daughter had free will, disregarded her mom's teaching.

thus, you cannot claim any moral highground over palin or consider her parenting any less effective than yours, it is merely a chance of choice, her kid chose something that yours did not.

do you agree? if not, how do you reconcile that with the belief that god is not less effective for our sins?


I understand what an analogy means, yurt. Please stop being so insultingly dismissive. I just do not think that considering God a failure for our free will is the same as the actions of a human parent and their lack of effectiveness. God does not fail at anything. Humans fail all the time. Sometimes humans fail as parents.

so simply because god never fails, our free will has nothing at all to do with him? the analogy does not apply? you give a diety a pass because the diety cannot fail, yet you will not apply the same rational to a less inferior being created by that diety. simply because the created being is capable of failure, then their children's choice to disobeynecessarily means that person is less effective a parent despite doing all they "humanly" could (they are not perfect and can fail) to properly raise their child??

we have free will to act contrary to the will of our heavenly father, how much so or more than do we have free will to act contrary to our earthly father or mother?

[retiredman]

so simply because god never fails, our free will has nothing at all to do with him? the analogy does not apply? you give a diety a pass because the diety cannot fail, yet you will not apply the same rational to a less inferior being created by that diety. simply because the created being is capable of failure, then their children's choice to disobeynecessarily means that person is less effective a parent despite doing all they "humanly" could (they are not perfect and can fail) to properly raise their child??

we have free will to act contrary to the will of our heavenly father, how much so or more than do we have free will to act contrary to our earthly father or mother?

I put God on a different plane than mortals? yes. yes I do. As I said, I am certain that the fact that her daughter did NOT listen to her parental guidance has made Sarah Palin think that, in some way, she had failed as a parent.... I KNOW I would. But given your ancestry, I can well understand why YOU, of all people would be willing to give her a pass.

[actsnoblemartin]

Debate Policy proudly presents

The religious War thread

:laugh2:

My mathew is bigger then your Corinthian :laugh2:

[retiredman]

Debate Policy proudly presents

The religious War thread

:laugh2:

My mathew is bigger then your Corinthian :laugh2:

yurt can only post a biblical quote every now and then...
and you can only spew gibberish in his wake.
what a pair!

[actsnoblemartin]

I dont understand why you are having an attitude against me, when i clearly didnt do anything to you, but that's your perogative

[retiredman]

fine, be an asshole

I was just making a joke, about how everyone was fighting and another thread was degraded into a pointless fight, but did you see me blame anyone?

thanks, another cheap shot at me, when i didnt dare do anything to you :fu:

you used the :fu: emoticon, didn't you? Simply using THAT earned me a two day suspension, thanks to the totally "moderate" moderators here at DP.com!

I DO hold God to a higher standard than I hold Sarah Palin. Obviously, you and your buddy yurt do not.

[actsnoblemartin]

I cant speak for the mods, but i can say I will accept whatever punishment they wanna dole out to me for flipping you off

Again, I didnt do anything to you for you to diss me, and used the fu emoticon because I was frustrated with you attacking me

How could my thread be not be any clearer, i didnt mention any names, it was said the thread not you, or yurt or anyone else was acting badly

jeez attack me for breathing why dont ya :poke:


you used the :fu: emoticon, didn't you? Simply using THAT earned me a two day suspension, thanks to the totally "moderate" moderators here at DP.com!

I DO hold God to a higher standard than I hold Sarah Palin. Obviously, you and your buddy yurt do not.

[actsnoblemartin]

I dont know the particulars of any suspension, because the mods privately do that, and dont believe ive even allowed to publicly discuss any suspension.

But i will say in all fairness, if I alone, im not speaking for anyone else here, were a mod, i would not ban anyone for simply using an emoticon

but then again, im not privy to your case or anyone elses

and I like the mod's personally...

they have been very kind and patient to me, when I probably didnt deserve it

[Immanuel]

and I like the mod's personally...

they have been very kind and patient to me, when I probably didnt deserve it

Do you brown-nose often? :cool:

Immie

[retiredman]

Do you brown-nose often? :cool:

Immie

24/7

[actsnoblemartin]

If that were true, you would be right

but i actually like the mods :salute:

sometimes i have been the biggest pmsing, angry, asshole

and they have been kind to me anyway

I dont know of many people who can put up with me/have patience with me

they rule :dance:


Do you brown-nose often? :cool:

Immie

[Yurt]

I put God on a different plane than mortals? yes. yes I do. As I said, I am certain that the fact that her daughter did NOT listen to her parental guidance has made Sarah Palin think that, in some way, she had failed as a parent.... I KNOW I would. But given your ancestry, I can well understand why YOU, of all people would be willing to give her a pass.

you won't speak for obama, but you'll speak for palin....

care to answer this:


we have free will to act contrary to the will of our heavenly father, how much so or more than do we have free will to act contrary to our earthly father or mother?

if we have free will to disobey God, then we have free will to disobey our parents. do you disagree?

[Abbey Marie]

If that were true, you would be right

but i actually like the mods :salute:

sometimes i have been the biggest pmsing, angry, asshole

and they have been kind to me anyway

I dont know of many people who can put up with me/have patience with me

they rule :dance:

Thanks, Martin.

[Yurt]

I understand what an analogy means, yurt. Please stop being so insultingly dismissive. I just do not think that considering God a failure for our free will is the same as the actions of a human parent and their lack of effectiveness. God does not fail at anything. Humans fail all the time. Sometimes humans fail as parents.


yurt can only post a biblical quote every now and then...
and you can only spew gibberish in his wake.
what a pair!

pathetic hypocrit who can't debate with me and wimps out on the analogy and just can bring himself to actually give a straight answer on the ultimate issue and has to continue tap dancing around it by repeating the same thing over and over and then when all else fails be dismissive and insult yurt after asking him not to do that to you.

:lol:

[actsnoblemartin]

Thanks, Martin.

My pleasure Ms Abbey

:salute:

And Thank You as well

:salute:

[Immanuel]

Thanks, Martin.

Hey!!

Don't think I disagree with him! I simply don't kiss up to ya. :lol:

Well, not often anyway. :laugh2:

Immie

[retiredman]

if we have free will to disobey God, then we have free will to disobey our parents. do you disagree?

I do not.

[retiredman]

pathetic hypocrit who can't debate with me and wimps out on the analogy and just can bring himself to actually give a straight answer on the ultimate issue and has to continue tap dancing around it by repeating the same thing over and over and then when all else fails be dismissive and insult yurt after asking him not to do that to you.




I didn't insult you yurt. I am sorry if you took it that way, buddy.

[actsnoblemartin]

why did you insult me?

I didnt even do anything?

if anything all i did was make a joke about the thread.

but I did not criticize you in any way shape or form, my post was vague.

I just dont get it


I didn't insult you yurt. I am sorry if you took it that way, buddy.

[retiredman]

why did you insult me?

I didnt even do anything?

if anything all i did was make a joke about the thread.

but I did not criticize you in any way shape or form, my post was vague.

I just dont get it


jokes belong in the humor forum.

[actsnoblemartin]

so two wrongs make a right?

I didnt even attack you, the joke was about the thread, not you

you cant be that thin skinned


jokes belong in the humor forum.

[retiredman]

so two wrongs make a right?

I didnt even attack you, the joke was about the thread, not you

you cant be that thin skinned
get over yourself. really.

[actsnoblemartin]

thin skin :poke:


get over yourself. really.

[actsnoblemartin]

why dont you get over yourself, you put 100% into attacking anyone who disagree's with you, but the second anyone puts 1% effort into disagreeing with you, you go ape shit

:poke:

and all i did was made a joke about a thread :laugh2:


get over yourself. really.

[retiredman]

why dont you get over yourself, you put 100% into attacking anyone who disagree's with you, but the second anyone puts 1% effort into disagreeing with you, you go ape shit

:poke:

and all i did was made a joke about a thread :laugh2:

that's fine, martin... go right ahead. You really only ever add lightweight humorous counterpoint anyway. I really have no intention of inhibiting your contribution.

[actsnoblemartin]

Can never admit your wrong can you?

anyone who is fair minded knows, that while i do make a lot of humorous, ok attemps at humerous threads, i make a lot of intelligent threads too

how convient that you forget about all my contributions and only focus on some or half of them

hmm, being dishonest are we?


that's fine, martin... go right ahead. You really only ever add lightweight humorous counterpoint anyway. I really have no intention of inhibiting your contribution.

[Gaffer]

why dont you get over yourself, you put 100% into attacking anyone who disagree's with you, but the second anyone puts 1% effort into disagreeing with you, you go ape shit

:poke:

and all i did was made a joke about a thread :laugh2:

Have you figured it out yet Martin, he's NOT your friend.

[actsnoblemartin]

I have now


Have you figured it out yet Martin, he's NOT your friend.

[retiredman]

Can never admit your wrong can you?

anyone who is fair minded knows, that while i do make a lot of humorous, ok attemps at humerous threads, i make a lot of intelligent threads too

how convient that you forget about all my contributions and only focus on some or half of them

hmm, being dishonest are we?

martin. I AM your friend. I simply feel you are not very intellectually grounded in your political beliefs and sway back and forth based upon personalities rather than on the strengths or weaknesses of positions. The vast majority of threads that you make are in the lounge and have to do with "what is your favorite song and why?" sorts of things. I know that you would LIKE to be a bigtime player in political discussions, but you really don't have the base of knowledge necessary to do so. That does not mean that you are not an inherently nice and friendly guy...you are. It just means you are not a bigtime political thinker...and that is not something that everyone can be anyhow.

[actsnoblemartin]

Thanks. :salute:

You are right, I am not a big time political thinker and i dont think i want to be.

I appreciate you pointing that out to be, i can be a bit too goofy sometimes.

and yeah, you are my friend. You have the guts to tell me when im being a dork, i appreciate that

:salute:


martin. I AM your friend. I simply feel you are not very intellectually grounded in your political beliefs and sway back and forth based upon personalities rather than on the strengths or weaknesses of positions. The vast majority of threads that you make are in the lounge and have to do with "what is your favorite song and why?" sorts of things. I know that you would LIKE to be a bigtime player in political discussions, but you really don't have the base of knowledge necessary to do so. That does not mean that you are not an inherently nice and friendly guy...you are. It just means you are not a bigtime political thinker...and that is not something that everyone can be anyhow.

[Yurt]

I do not.

summing up here....

we have free will to disobey God and our parents. God is not accountable for our actions (in this analogy), e.g., he is never at fault because he is God, perfect. Nevertheless, our parents, who are not perfect, but do their best to raise their children right, are to blame and are at fault every time the child disobeys, despite the child's free will which is independant and cannot be controlled completely by the parent.

is this your position?

[retiredman]

summing up here....

we have free will to disobey God and our parents. God is not accountable for our actions (in this analogy), e.g., he is never at fault because he is God, perfect. Nevertheless, our parents, who are not perfect, but do their best to raise their children right, are to blame and are at fault every time the child disobeys, despite the child's free will which is independant and cannot be controlled completely by the parent.

is this your position?

not quite. I would never put all the fault on the parents for the actions of their children. I would put some there, which is where you and I differ. Your insistence on casting this entire question in black or white is inappropraite... but I would guess that really doesn't matter to you.

cute little mathematical sidelight: my son, the choir director, picked hymn #490 for this week: "Now in the Days of Youth"

[Sitarro]

Maybe you don't know her as well as you think daddy. Has she ever introduced you to her really close, best, girlfriend? Tell me know it all, how do lesbian couples decide who will be inseminated?

I didn't realize that insinuating that the daughter of a "progressive" liberal could be a lesbian would be taken as an insult. I have known and were good friends with a number of lesbians, I don't have a problem with them, I'm surprised that a "progressive" liberal would. I would apologize for the insult but I don't believe it was and I couldn't give a shit what someone that professes to be a "progressive" liberal thinks of lesbians anyway. What hypocritical ass wipe that "progressive" liberal is.