What is spirituality?

[avatar4321]

I was thinking about it earlier and people have so many different viewpoints on what spirituality is so I figured id see what everyone thought.

[Yurt]

good question

spiritual things are often spiritually discerned.

i smoked a wee bit o'weed in HS and use to go to a local mountain here in SLO and try to 'connect'. believed in god/jesus/hs then and of course the all mighty power of weed and girls. still do...try to connect...however i never have been able to connect to what i thought or hoped was a spiritual connection. have read new age stuff....because i thought maybe i missed something... because IMO the bible stories you hear and the church schools i went to did not invest much, if at all, into spiritually, other than going to church and singing songs and getting worship cards. nonetheless, i do not give up hope that what i experienced as a child might, just might be true.....

....i used to talk to my angel or god every night. i used to pretend he was hugging me. i use to also have an uncanning ability to foretell some events and some thought i was 'connected'. i think now i was just 'aware' or more aware than others. but all that stopped at 13 or 14.

since then i have not been able to get any deep spirituality, but at times feel drawn to the peace i had then. and i miss the ability to almost always know what the right course or the right 'way' should be. maybe that is youth, the decisions then don't seem as vast as they do now and the consequences less severe.

i don't know, but i seems as if.....if spirituality is 'real' we ought to feel something...then again, i am not sure what 'feeling alive' is.

[PostmodernProphet]

I have always considered "spirituality" to be a very broad term....there are those who think nothing exists which isn't material (can be touched, felt, described).....the spiritual includes everything else......

[bullypulpit]

I've always viewed spirituality as a counter to religiosity. Spirituality arises from within and in accordance with once own sense of rightness and goodness. Religiosity is the acceptance of whatever is handed down from the hierarchy of an organized religion. The two can exist in a harmonious balance so long as the fundamental tenets of a given religion serve as guides, not absolute mandates, to one's spiritual growth.

Spirituality is ultimately expressed as "grace", "samadhi", or any of the thousands of other terms for that state where one becomes the embodiment of one's highest values.

[MtnBiker]

Spirituality is ultimately expressed as "grace", "samadhi", or any of the thousands of other terms for that state where one becomes the embodiment of one's highest values.

Would that include saying to someone, "fuck you, you retarded moron" ? Just wondering.

[crin63]

From a biblical perspective being spiritual first requires that one be an actual born again Christian. Then its simply living according to the word of God.

In order to live by the word of God one must actually read and study the word of God, not just assume what God wants. Sitting under sound gospel preaching is a must as well.

Don't try to fit what you believe or think about God or what He wants into the Bible. Read the Bible and actually find out what God wants without a preconceived set of ideas or doctrines.

[bullypulpit]

Would that include saying to someone, "fuck you, you retarded moron" ? Just wondering.

Ever hear of "<a href=http://www.shambhala.org/teachings/view.php?id=131>crazy wisdom</a>"?

[theHawk]

Spirituality arises from within and in accordance with once own sense of rightness and goodness. Religiosity is the acceptance of whatever is handed down from the hierarchy of an organized religion. The two can exist in a harmonious balance so long as the fundamental tenets of a given religion serve as guides, not absolute mandates, to one's spiritual growth.

Spirituality is ultimately expressed as "grace", "samadhi", or any of the thousands of other terms for that state where one becomes the embodiment of one's highest values.


"Spirituality" is quite often a term used by people to justify breaking the Second Commandment. When people start to make up their own sense of righteousness and morality, they are creating their own religion. It is probably one of the most violated Commandments occuring in today's Christian societies. God has defined what is right and wrong in the Bible, when man disregards that and starts to make up his own sense of right and wrong then he is breaking God's commandment.

[darin]

I've heard folks say "...I don't believe in God, or Christ...but I'm a very spiritual person..." as an attempt to justify their rejection of God. I believe they are sincere in their desire to know God, or be plugged in. All the sincerity in the world will never turn a falsehood into Truth.

[Abbey Marie]

Imo, sprituality is a concept people who don't believe in Christ turn to to fill the void in their soul.

[crin63]

"Spirituality" is quite often a term used by people to justify breaking the Second Commandment. When people start to make up their own sense of righteousness and morality, they are creating their own religion. It is probably one of the most violated Commandments occuring in today's Christian societies. God has defined what is right and wrong in the Bible, when man disregards that and starts to make up his own sense of right and wrong then he is breaking God's commandment.

Sorry, I must be tired. Please give a practical application. I posted the 2nd commandment if that helps.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

I have an observation that I don't think I have heard addressed before. Wouldn't it be idolatry for churches to have an image of a dove or a flame since they are proposing that those are representative of the Holy Spirit?

Another thought, wouldn't bowing down to a person and kissing their ring also be a form of idolatry. Wouldn't any statue violate the 2nd commandment? Just a thought.

[JohnDoe]

Some very interesting ideas of Spirituality have been posted so far, and good question Avatar...

The prim and proper answer is probably something like, to each person, it is something different.

yurt....great story and gives some insight to who you are as a person, outside of this board imo....
- Maybe you should become a Rastafarian and do some more weed sitting on a hill in the middle of nowhere, God's country... you might connect again? :D

Bully....i think you are on to something, on the part where you said that spirituality comes from within...but what does "within" really mean? on the other stuff you said as a counter to religion i personally think is hogwash... ;)

Mtn Biker... hahahahaha! leave it to you to be on top of things with Bully! lol

Crin....I think you are not viewing the whole picture, though i do think it is important to read Scripture...but i would have to ask you, Do you really believe those that are not Christians or those that have not ever read any Holy Scripture can not have a Spiritual connection with God? I don't think so just based on the fact that for over 3 hundred years after christ there was not a printed, complete Bible for those to read, and prior to such, and prior to Christ, and prior to the Books of the Word being writen down, there were plenty that were spiritual and had a connection to God...for example, do you think Moses was not spiritual? I don't believe he had the WORD to be studied in paper or leatherback?

the Hawk....wow, i have never thought of it that way...the thought deserves some contemplation for certain...offhand, without the pondering done yet, I would say that it is possible that might be used as a crutch to boast up themselves...and not to make this political, but some think Bush did this with him implying or saying that he felt God was leading him in to this war in Iraq, in so many words....which I have NEVER believed and felt he was bolstering himself UP by indicating such or implying such... :(....setting this aside, i don't think this is done all the time and i think this is not necessarily spirituality at all, but a faux or false spirituality, don't ya think?

Now, for me to answer Avatar's question from my own personal experience...it comes first with being humble, and knowing that you don't know all, and submitting to this with your heart, mind and soul....my spirituality begins with submission to a higher power, who i think i know, but also know, i know not enough...

For me, spirituality leads and comes with praying, with thought, with deep concerns....this takes quiet and solitude, kind of like when Christ went in to the dessert for 40 days, for some it takes fasting even....

but for me, it takes opening my mind...

now, what the heck does that mean some may ask? lol and it is hard to explain, it's more like a humbling feeling that I AM NOT ALONE....that SOMETHING is out there, trying (HUGE EMPHASIS ON THE "TRYING"), to guide me in the right direction ALL that i do in everyday life...it's a feeling that something greater than me, is trying to help me "see the light" so to say....in my struggles with sins, in my prayer for others, and even in my sadness and happiness...something is trying to reach out to me...i can feel it, as crazy as that sounds...

to me, this is Spirituality.

jd

[Abbey Marie]

...
Crin....I think you are not viewing the whole picture, though i do think it is important to read Scripture...but i would have to ask you, Do you really believe those that are not Christians or those that have not ever read any Holy Scripture can not have a Spiritual connection with God? I don't think so just based on the fact that for over 3 hundred years after christ there was not a printed, complete Bible for those to read, and prior to such, and prior to Christ, and prior to the Books of the Word being writen down, there were plenty that were spiritual and had a connection to God...for example, do you think Moses was not spiritual? I don't believe he had the WORD to be studied in paper or leatherback?
...
jd

Prior to it being written down, much of it was no doubt spread orally by the apostles, then by others. I don't think the medium used to spread/receive the message matters nearly as much as the message itself.

[JohnDoe]

Prior to it being written down, much of it was no doubt spread orally by the apostles, then by others. I don't think the medium used to spread/receive the message matters nearly as much as the message itself.

good point...and i agree...

but i was thinking even deeper...like, how did Moses know to follow God, he was not one that had been given Hebrew scripture, he was raised by egyptians, yet somehow, he knew to believe in God, when God approached him.... (now who wouldn't believe in God if God started to talk to us, i suppose could be said? :) ) but, it wasn't like scripture was known by him...even through tradition...? And maybe i am thinking about Charlton Heston instead of the real Moses, but it didn't appear that he did in the movie the 10 commandments...? :)

but even before Moses, the relationship with God, seemed more spiritual than religious to me....

[darin]

Sorry, I must be tired. Please give a practical application. I posted the 2nd commandment if that helps.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

I have an observation that I don't think I have heard addressed before. Wouldn't it be idolatry for churches to have an image of a dove or a flame since they are proposing that those are representative of the Holy Spirit?

Another thought, wouldn't bowing down to a person and kissing their ring also be a form of idolatry. Wouldn't any statue violate the 2nd commandment? Just a thought.


Good questions - I'll take a stab at them.

The purpose of the 2nd commandment (under which Christians no longer seem bound, btw - the 10 commandments were for the israelites under those conditions) was to prevent idol worship. Remember the context in which those commandments were given - The folk had created a 'golden calf' to worship (keep in mind, they had spent 400 years as slaves in Egypt. Egypt had dozens(??) of statues representing their doezens (??) of gods. As the israelies carried an Ark (very much like the boxes carried by Egyptians during rituatls) they probably associated any sort of god-worship with a representation like a statue, etc.). God told them "Look, idiots. I love you, but you're idiots. Don't worship crap you MAKE, or crap I Made (mountains, trees, whatever). Worship ME. I'm not a statue or a 'thing'.

What we see in churches (the dove, etc) are representations based on biblical accounts - and NOT items for worship. Those things remind us - they are visual clues to remind us - of stories long-ago (and current, some say).

One of the problems I have with Catholocism is the whole 'holiness' thing - where they attach Holiness to objects and people. Seems at odds with what Christ taught.

[crin63]

Good questions - I'll take a stab at them.

The purpose of the 2nd commandment (under which Christians no longer seem bound, btw - the 10 commandments were for the israelites under those conditions) was to prevent idol worship. Remember the context in which those commandments were given - The folk had created a 'golden calf' to worship (keep in mind, they had spent 400 years as slaves in Egypt. Egypt had dozens(??) of statues representing their doezens (??) of gods. As the israelies carried an Ark (very much like the boxes carried by Egyptians during rituatls) they probably associated any sort of god-worship with a representation like a statue, etc.). God told them "Look, idiots. I love you, but you're idiots. Don't worship crap you MAKE, or crap I Made (mountains, trees, whatever). Worship ME. I'm not a statue or a 'thing'.

What we see in churches (the dove, etc) are representations based on biblical accounts - and NOT items for worship. Those things remind us - they are visual clues to remind us - of stories long-ago (and current, some say).

One of the problems I have with Catholocism is the whole 'holiness' thing - where they attach Holiness to objects and people. Seems at odds with what Christ taught.

Thanks for the response DMP.

Aren't the ten commandments what is considered, "The Law"? All the Mosaic laws were derived from the ten commandments if I understand things correctly.

Maybe I misunderstand, but it sounds like you are saying that the ten commandments or the law is no longer applicable. If that is the case then there wouldn't seem to be any basis for which to determine sin.

The law is described as our schoolmaster which leads us to Christ in Galations.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

I understand that the law was given at a different time or dispensation but I believe it to still be applicable in the ten commandments otherwise we really lose much or all of or basis to determine what is and isn't sin.

What do you think?

[darin]

Thanks for the response DMP.

Aren't the ten commandments what is considered, "The Law"? All the Mosaic laws were derived from the ten commandments if I understand things correctly.

Maybe I misunderstand, but it sounds like you are saying that the ten commandments or the law is no longer applicable. If that is the case then there wouldn't seem to be any basis for which to determine sin.

The law is described as our schoolmaster which leads us to Christ in Galations.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

I understand that the law was given at a different time or dispensation but I believe it to still be applicable in the ten commandments otherwise we really lose much or all of or basis to determine what is and isn't sin.

What do you think?

"the Law" was given by God to man not as arbitrary rules to govern behavior, but to set forth a logical path to redemption. Christ fullfilled that law with his sacrfice and subsequent resurection. To say we're not bound by the law means we are no longer held accountable to those laws when we're being judged - we're judged on our acceptance of Christ's fullfillment - his substitutional attonement for our sins. I would even suggest many who don't know christ per se, have found God and are covered by Christ's sacrifice. Christ said no one find God without Him (christ). I take that as Christ's prompting/spiritual nudging can bring people to God; into a relationship with God. Maybe they call God Allah? Maybe they call Him something else. I allow God is bigger than the Bible - there's more to his ability and influence and guidance than what's written there.

What Jesus taught was Sin isn't simply 'breaking a rule/law'. Jesus taught sins aren't in our actions so much as our desires. Christ taught "It's not that it's a sin to committ adultry - it's sinful to DESIRE adultry.' While adultry certainly is a sin, where the sin starts - it's genesis - is internal. Further, with regard to laws on the Sabbath - keeping the day 'holy' and such. Christ taught - despite insistance on the part of the Religious leaders of the day - doing GOOD is never a bad idea; even if the doing-good constitutes 'work' - which the leaders forbid during the Sabbath. Make sense?

Therefore - we've established Christ fullfilling the Law (as the basis upon which we're judged) and demonstrating sin, and forgiveness, etc, happens internally (at least initially) - and is not necessarily tied to 'doing' something - but more tied to 'being a certain way'. Said another way, it's not that Christ wants us to 'Do Holiness' (Wear the right thing, say the right thing, obey to the letter of the law), he wants us to BE Holy. Being vs. Doing.

Make any sense?

[theHawk]

Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


Key word: MY commandments. Not your own. Take for example people who agree with their Church's teachings 95%, but when it comes to homosexuality they think its ok. Or when it comes to abortion, they think its ok, even though God clearly says otherwise in the Bible. These people are making up their own morality as they go. They believe that they are "good people" because they still may go to church every week, but they are clearly making up their own rules.

Its hard to say if it breaks only the second commandment. The First, Second, and Third commandments are all so closely connected. You could also say in the above examples they are breaking the third commandment, using God's name in vain. They are essentially claiming, at least to themselves, that God says homosexuality is ok.

Idolatry isn't just about creating a physical image of something devine. Its altering the word of God and perverting it to something else. Its manufacturing your own religion.

[AllieBaba]

Wonderful thread...ppl actually being respectful, which is unusual in a messageboard religion debate.

Also, Jesus told us if we love God and one another, we would fall in under the 10 commandments.

[crin63]

Key word: MY commandments. Not your own. Take for example people who agree with their Church's teachings 95%, but when it comes to homosexuality they think its ok. Or when it comes to abortion, they think its ok, even though God clearly says otherwise in the Bible. These people are making up their own morality as they go. They believe that they are "good people" because they still may go to church every week, but they are clearly making up their own rules.

Its hard to say if it breaks only the second commandment. The First, Second, and Third commandments are all so closely connected. You could also say in the above examples they are breaking the third commandment, using God's name in vain. They are essentially claiming, at least to themselves, that God says homosexuality is ok.

Idolatry isn't just about creating a physical image of something devine. Its altering the word of God and perverting it to something else. Its manufacturing your own religion.

Thanks Hawk! I don't think we have a fundamental disagreement on this topic. I think I basically agree with you. I have a bit of a different view or maybe a clarification of my beliefs.

Agreed that idolatry isn't just statues and images. I'm of the belief that anything you value greater or put ahead of God is idolatry. That would include people and stuff.

Taking Gods name in vain (empty use) would be any use that is in a flippant manner which is lacking the respect due God. I would suggest that for someone to use, "Jesus Christ" as an exclamation of shock or disbelief is using the Lords name in vain.

[JohnDoe]

Wonderful thread...ppl actually being respectful, which is unusual in a messageboard religion debate.

Also, Jesus told us if we love God and one another, we would fall in under the 10 commandments.

so TRUE allie, Christ told us that we must love God with all of our heart, mind and soul and to love thy neighbor....and these would be obeying the 10 commandments

[Yurt]

Imo, sprituality is a concept people who don't believe in Christ turn to to fill the void in their soul.

interesting...for me alone, i feel like spirituality is the hope in things eternal and that are not seen. i do believe the word has taken on connotations such as you describe...i have been looking to fill that void, as you say, since childhood and have to say i have not filled it. i am not sure i understand it and a simple, believe in jesus does not work for me.

[April15]

George Dickel has the spirit that can change a mans life. That is spirituality!

[Yurt]

George Dickel has the spirit that can change a mans life. That is spirituality!

i put a gun to you knee cap and blow it off, leaving you basically cripple...that'll change your life

oh, oh, i have a better one, oh, oh, ronald reagan becomes president

[bullypulpit]

Imo, sprituality is a concept people who don't believe in Christ turn to to fill the void in their soul.

Why does it have to be Christ? And how would you know that there is a "void in their soul"? If they find peace, contentment and fellowship with all around them in their faith, or lack thereof, does it matter what that faith is?

[bullypulpit]

George Dickel has the spirit that can change a mans life. That is spirituality!

I prefer Glenfiddich.

[Yurt]

Why does it have to be Christ? And how would you know that there is a "void in their soul"? If they find peace, contentment and fellowship with all around them in their faith, or lack thereof, does it matter what that faith is?

are you telling me that new age people aren't looking for fulfillment?

everyone one has faith. everyone. if you don't have faith in god, then you have faith he doesn't exist.

[Abbey Marie]

Why does it have to be Christ? And how would you know that there is a "void in their soul"? If they find peace, contentment and fellowship with all around them in their faith, or lack thereof, does it matter what that faith is?

Because that is what I believe, as evidence by the phrase "imo" in my post. Are you telling me I should not believe that?

[bullypulpit]

Because that is what I believe, as evidence by the phrase "imo" in my post. Are you telling me I should not believe that?

Oh, good grief Charlie Brown! No. Believe as you wish, and I won't begrudge you a thing. And it's no problem as long as folks believe what they wish and leave those who don't share that belief alone. Problems arise when one group decides that they're right and everyone else is wrong, and they'd better toe the line because their favorite dogma is given the full weight of the law by some particularly weak-minded and/or unprincipled politicians. Now this can occur incrementally, or it can occur wholesale as it did in the Iranian revolution. In either case, when religion and politics walk hand in hand oppression, violence and death soon follow.

[crin63]

Oh, good grief Charlie Brown! No. Believe as you wish, and I won't begrudge you a thing. And it's no problem as long as folks believe what they wish and leave those who don't share that belief alone. Problems arise when one group decides that they're right and everyone else is wrong, and they'd better toe the line because their favorite dogma is given the full weight of the law by some particularly weak-minded and/or unprincipled politicians. Now this can occur incrementally, or it can occur wholesale as it did in the Iranian revolution. In either case, when religion and politics walk hand in hand oppression, violence and death soon follow.

What if someone believes you are in grave danger? Should they just be silent and allow you to walk off a cliff? For me to remain silent and not try to talk to others about Jesus would be the same as watching a blind man walk off a cliff without saying a word to try and stop him.

Christians in general have only ever died spreading their beliefs. They have never killed to spread their beliefs. You will mention the crusades but those were not Christians, those were followers of Mary not followers of Christ. Christians die for their beliefs, they don't kill for their beliefs.

[bullypulpit]

What if someone believes you are in grave danger? Should they just be silent and allow you to walk off a cliff? For me to remain silent and not try to talk to others about Jesus would be the same as watching a blind man walk off a cliff without saying a word to try and stop him.

Christians in general have only ever died spreading their beliefs. They have never killed to spread their beliefs. You will mention the crusades but those were not Christians, those were followers of Mary not followers of Christ. Christians die for their beliefs, they don't kill for their beliefs.

Potentially walking off of a cliff is, demonstrably, a very clear and present danger which could result in physical injury or death. Proselytizing, on the other hand, deals with wholly subjective phenomena which have no demonstrable effect or objective basis. Your analogies fail...utterly.

I would suggest you read your history. Christendom has killed many over the centuries, from the Spanish Inquisition to the conquering and exploiting of the Americas by European colonial powers. Where ever they went...missionaries went with them spreading the ecumenism of the sword and gun.

[Abbey Marie]

Oh, good grief Charlie Brown! No. Believe as you wish, and I won't begrudge you a thing. And it's no problem as long as folks believe what they wish and leave those who don't share that belief alone. Problems arise when one group decides that they're right and everyone else is wrong, and they'd better toe the line because their favorite dogma is given the full weight of the law by some particularly weak-minded and/or unprincipled politicians. Now this can occur incrementally, or it can occur wholesale as it did in the Iranian revolution. In either case, when religion and politics walk hand in hand oppression, violence and death soon follow.

And you got all of this out of my little post? You know, the one where I start off with "imo"? Why do you get so worked up over an opinion on spirituality that you disagree with, that you take it to this extreme?

[April15]

i put a gun to you knee cap and blow it off, leaving you basically cripple...that'll change your life

oh, oh, i have a better one, oh, oh, ronald reagan becomes presidentYou wouldn't get close enough to use and RR is in hell with all the conservative cronies.

[avatar4321]

Potentially walking off of a cliff is, demonstrably, a very clear and present danger which could result in physical injury or death. Proselytizing, on the other hand, deals with wholly subjective phenomena which have no demonstrable effect or objective basis. Your analogies fail...utterly.

I would suggest you read your history. Christendom has killed many over the centuries, from the Spanish Inquisition to the conquering and exploiting of the Americas by European colonial powers. Where ever they went...missionaries went with them spreading the ecumenism of the sword and gun.

Whether you consider the basis objective or subjective is irrelevant. The benefits are still present. The laws of the Gospel are no less active simply because you can't see because there are other ways to learn the truth's of God.

[avatar4321]

And you got all of this out of my little post? You know, the one where I start off with "imo"? Why do you get so worked up over an opinion on spirituality that you disagree with, that you take it to this extreme?

because he is insecure in his faith and it bugs the heck out of him when he sees people who are secure in their faith.

[bullypulpit]

Whether you consider the basis objective or subjective is irrelevant. The benefits are still present. The laws of the Gospel are no less active simply because you can't see because there are other ways to learn the truth's of God.

Which God? There have been many throughout human history and religious doctrine, like history, is written by the winners. Again, you're dealing with subjective experience, and religion is an attempt to concretize that experience. Read William James' "The Varieties of Religious Experience". for a more thorough exposition on the topic.

[bullypulpit]

because he is insecure in his faith and it bugs the heck out of him when he sees people who are secure in their faith.

It is those who are insecure in their faith who are troubled by, and have little tolerance for, other views. If one's faith in a higher power brings them comfort, then by all means, they are free to pursue it. But they shouldn't assume that the general garment of their faith is a proper fit for all.