Children aged eight enlisted as council snoopers

[stephanie]

heading our way, fast..little Hitler children

Children as young as eight have been recruited by councils to "snoop" on their neighbours and report petty offences such as littering, the Daily Telegraph can disclose.

By Martin Beckford, Sarah Graham and Betsy Mead
Last Updated: 1:00PM BST 06 Sep 2008

Comments 201 | Comment on this article

Youngsters are being encouraged to report 'enviro-crime' Photo: EDDIE MULHOLLAND
The youngsters are among almost 5,000 residents who in some cases are being offered £500 rewards if they provide evidence of minor infractions.

One in six councils contacted by the Telegraph said they had signed up teams of "environment volunteers" who are being encouraged to photograph or video neighbours guilty of dog fouling, littering or "bin crimes".

The "covert human intelligence sources", as some local authorities describe them, are also being asked to pass on the names of neighbours they believe to be responsible, or take down their number-plates.

Ealing Council in West London said: "There are hundreds of Junior Streetwatchers, aged 8-10 years old, who are trained to identify and report enviro-crime issues such as graffiti and fly-tipping."

Harlow Council in Essex said: "We currently have 25 Street Scene Champions who work with the council. They are all aged between 11 to 14. They are encouraged to report the aftermath of enviro-crimes such as vandalism to bus shelters, graffiti, abandoned vehicles, fly-tipping etc. They do this via telephone or email direct to the council."

Other local authorities recruit adult volunteers through advertisements in local newspapers, with at least 4,841 people already patrolling the streets in their spare time.


read the rest and comments.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2689996/Children-aged-eight-enlisted-as-council-snoopers.html

[Said1]

heading our way, fast..little Hitler children

Children as young as eight have been recruited by councils to "snoop" on their neighbours and report petty offences such as littering, the Daily Telegraph can disclose.

By Martin Beckford, Sarah Graham and Betsy Mead
Last Updated: 1:00PM BST 06 Sep 2008

Comments 201 | Comment on this article

Youngsters are being encouraged to report 'enviro-crime' Photo: EDDIE MULHOLLAND
The youngsters are among almost 5,000 residents who in some cases are being offered £500 rewards if they provide evidence of minor infractions.

One in six councils contacted by the Telegraph said they had signed up teams of "environment volunteers" who are being encouraged to photograph or video neighbours guilty of dog fouling, littering or "bin crimes".

The "covert human intelligence sources", as some local authorities describe them, are also being asked to pass on the names of neighbours they believe to be responsible, or take down their number-plates.

Ealing Council in West London said: "There are hundreds of Junior Streetwatchers, aged 8-10 years old, who are trained to identify and report enviro-crime issues such as graffiti and fly-tipping."

Harlow Council in Essex said: "We currently have 25 Street Scene Champions who work with the council. They are all aged between 11 to 14. They are encouraged to report the aftermath of enviro-crimes such as vandalism to bus shelters, graffiti, abandoned vehicles, fly-tipping etc. They do this via telephone or email direct to the council."

Other local authorities recruit adult volunteers through advertisements in local newspapers, with at least 4,841 people already patrolling the streets in their spare time.


read the rest and comments.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2689996/Children-aged-eight-enlisted-as-council-snoopers.html


I don't think this is a terrible idea in crime and drug infested areas. When people have a stake in their neighbourhoods, they tend to respect it more.....but 40000, probably mostly nosey Nellies and little wannabe hall monitors. Crazy. :laugh2:

[Mr. P]

What's fly-tipping?

[Noir]

fly tipping is dumping waste at a road side or in a park, mass littering I guess.

Seems a good idea, increasing socail responsibility through a cash reward system, don't know why some pillock gave the job to 8 year olds but it's a good idea for 18+ year olds.

[Mr. P]

fly tipping is dumping waste at a road side or in a park, mass littering I guess.

Seems a good idea, increasing socail responsibility through a cash reward system, don't know why some pillock gave the job to 8 year olds but it's a good idea for 18+ year olds.

Thanks. Ya'll talk funny. :poke:

[Noir]

yeah, its normally done from cars or vans pulling up and quickly dumping the waste and driving off, hence 'tipping on the fly' ergo fly-tipping.

[Immanuel]

I don't think this is a terrible idea in crime and drug infested areas. When people have a stake in their neighbourhoods, they tend to respect it more.....but 40000, probably mostly nosey Nellies and little wannabe hall monitors. Crazy. :laugh2:

I think it is a terrible idea!

Why? Because soon you will have little Johnny and his gang of thugs, who doesn't like little Tommy, telling the council that Tommy's daddy went fly-tipping, or little Tommy was vandalizing a bus stop even though these crimes were never committed. For little Tommy's daddy to prove otherwise when five trained thugs "independently" confirm the event would be next to impossible. Next comes the accusation that little Tommy's daddy was seen in a communist meeting and pretty soon, Tommy's daddy is in deep dodo.

Immie

[Noir]

you will note immie that evidence has to be provided, ie video, or somthing simalar that will stand up in a court of law, 4 freinds all sayin wee johnny did something is not evidence.

[stephanie]

how nice to have everyone spying on everyone else..what a wonderful community that must be..

very sad.

[Mr. P]

you will note immie that evidence has to be provided, ie video, or somthing simalar that will stand up in a court of law, 4 freinds all sayin wee johnny did something is not evidence.

Maybe our rabid left could learn something from the UK cuz they damn sure don't think that applies here..Just Maybe?

[Immanuel]

you will note immie that evidence has to be provided, ie video, or somthing simalar that will stand up in a court of law, 4 freinds all sayin wee johnny did something is not evidence.

So they throw the case out of court after Tommy's dad spends six weeks in jail and 100,000 pounds (don't know how to make that symbol and don't want to look it up) trying to prove that there was no evidence in the first place.

For the record, I have never been in favor of the government getting citizens to spy on citizens. Such a task was one of the things George Bush tried after 9/11 and it was one of the first things that got me upset with the Bush administration.

Immie

[diuretic]

There ya go - a very bad idea

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/14/1026185141232.html


US planning to recruit one in 24 Americans as citizen spies
By Ritt Goldstein
July 15 2002



The Bush Administration aims to recruit millions of United States citizens as domestic informants in a program likely to alarm civil liberties groups.

The Terrorism Information and Prevention System, or TIPS, means the US will have a higher percentage of citizen informants than the former East Germany through the infamous Stasi secret police. The program would use a minimum of 4 per cent of Americans to report "suspicious activity".

Civil liberties groups have already warned that, with the passage earlier this year of the Patriot Act, there is potential for abusive, large-scale investigations of US citizens.

As with the Patriot Act, TIPS is being pursued as part of the so-called war against terrorism. It is a Department of Justice project.

Highlighting the scope of the surveillance network, TIPS volunteers are being recruited primarily from among those whose work provides access to homes, businesses or transport systems. Letter carriers, utility employees, truck drivers and train conductors are among those named as targeted recruits.

A pilot program, described on the government Web site www.citizencorps.gov, is scheduled to start next month in 10 cities, with 1 million informants participating in the first stage. Assuming the program is initiated in the 10 largest US cities, that will be 1 million informants for a total population of almost 24 million, or one in 24 people.

More at link.

[Noir]

So they throw the case out of court after Tommy's dad spends six weeks in jail and 100,000 pounds (don't know how to make that symbol and don't want to look it up) trying to prove that there was no evidence in the first place.



Good god, is that how you work things in the US?
I'll run you through how it would happen in the UK. Johhny is accused by 4 guys of fly-tipping. They report to police, all 4 men have to give statements, johhny is asked to make a statement. Life goes on as normal while the PPS (Public prosecution service) reveiw the case, they must decided if there is enough evidence to prosecute, if there isn't he case is thrown out, johhny does not spend 1 moment in jail, and at an average rate of £40 per hour it is not going to cost £100,000 to review the case, more like £200.

And even if the PPS decided there is enough evidence, a court date will be set at which the accused must attend. The PPS will then tell the judge what evidence they have, if the judge thinks it is not good enough he will slam the PPS and throw the case out, again johnny has spent no time in jail, and costs are very limited.

And after all of this if the judge decideds that there is enough evidence then a new date will be set for a proper hearing, but for an offence such as fly-tipping or another misdemeanour (sp?) the accused will not be held in jail.

But i ofcourse did not expect you to know any of that, but is that similar to how it would work in the US? or would it be more like you assumed our system to be?



For the record, I have never been in favor of the government getting citizens to spy on citizens. Such a task was one of the things George Bush tried after 9/11 and it was one of the first things that got me upset with the Bush administration.
Immie

I don't think it should be used in terrorism, as that could lead to many many problems, but for small crimes like fly-tipping, graffiti, or letting your dog crap all over the street, it is a good idea. The chances of the police being around someone who is fly-tipping is quiet small, but if a citizen has the financial incentive to record such activity and give it to the police then its a win win situation.

As in anything, i believe a self policed area from the bottem up is much better than a policed area from the top down.

[stephanie]

So they don't think it should be used to look for terrorist but, it's a good thing to report your neighbor for leaving a piece of dog shit on the grass..must make for some happy neighbor living next to each other..

how do you get trained for a life like that??:dunno:

[Immanuel]

I don't think it should be used in terrorism, as that could lead to many many problems, but for small crimes like fly-tipping, graffiti, or letting your dog crap all over the street, it is a good idea. The chances of the police being around someone who is fly-tipping is quiet small, but if a citizen has the financial incentive to record such activity and give it to the police then its a win win situation.

As in anything, i believe a self policed area from the bottem up is much better than a policed area from the top down.

My concern is not in the misdemeanor cases. They would be minor. My concern is in the terrorist type action. Shortly after 9/11, The Bush Administration began encouraging U.S. citizens to turn in neighbors that they suspected of terrorist activities. There was a case out of Miami where, three (I am not absolutely positive on the number so if someone has better info correct me) Muslim men were sitting in a restaurant. They were headed to college, I believe. They were talking among themselves and noticed people watching them so they began whispering among themselves and were accused of "acting" suspicious. Well, someone called to police and the men were arrested. If I am not mistaken they went to jail for a time and then when they were released they were denied admissions to the school. I am relaying the facts as I remember them so if others (maybe some of the attorneys on board) know the facts better than I, I would appreciate corrections.

Anyway, that is the kind of thing that worries me. With that kind of thing, I see a return to the days of jackbooted soldiers in our streets arresting people like Joe Steel who have the courage to stand up and say they don't like something the government is doing.

Immie

[Said1]

I think it is a terrible idea!

Why? Because soon you will have little Johnny and his gang of thugs, who doesn't like little Tommy, telling the council that Tommy's daddy went fly-tipping, or little Tommy was vandalizing a bus stop even though these crimes were never committed. For little Tommy's daddy to prove otherwise when five trained thugs "independently" confirm the event would be next to impossible. Next comes the accusation that little Tommy's daddy was seen in a communist meeting and pretty soon, Tommy's daddy is in deep dodo.

Immie

And you know this because you've been actively involved in some sort of community association where youth crime, drugs and violence are problems? What worked in your neighbourhood, the po-po?

As I already stated, sounds like over-kill, but people living within a community are the only ones who can really save it/change. Those methods aren't perfect, but they've been put into effect in one form or another in North America and have been very successful. Perhaps you should travel around the world and implement what really works, since you know.

[Immanuel]

And you know this because you've been actively involved in some sort of community association where youth crime, drugs and violence are problems? What worked in your neighbourhood, the po-po?

As I already stated, sounds like over-kill, but people living within a community are the only ones who can really save it/change. Those methods aren't perfect, but they've been put into effect in one form or another in North America and have been very successful. Perhaps you should travel around the world and implement what really works, since you know.

I imagine you would love the opportunity to run around and tell on all your liberal neighbors. Turning common citizens into spies on their neighbors is a shitty idea and only leads to Hitler style governments. Is that what we want?

Immie

[Said1]

I imagine you would love the opportunity to run around and tell on all your liberal neighbors. Turning common citizens into spies on their neighbors is a shitty idea and only leads to Hitler style governments. Is that what we want?

Immie

Too late, I already have.

And great suggestions, I think I'll try your none ideas.....or at least try my best to interpret them.........I imagine you think looking the other way while some asshole dumps shit in a vacant lot or spray paints a local business which my area badly needs is acceptable? I should be complacent and not report it if I see it, nor should anyone else? I guess no one likes a rat, right? :laugh2:

I don't know how things really work where you're from, but in this city we call the city by-law people and report that sort of thing (spray painting busineses, dumping shit all willy nilly etc). They decide if it's a criminal matter, although there usuallly is a fine involved, irregardless. As I've stated more than once, I think the numbers mentioned in the article is overkill, but it would be nice to see people cleaning up their own streets as it rarely works when it's left to police.

And, on a side note, there are several communities in North America (US/Canada) that have implemented similar programs (although the crimes reported were a tad more serious) and they have been VERY successful.

[gabosaurus]

Like an eight-year-old can really tell who is a "terrorist." Or even what a "terrorist" is. Unless their parents have been teaching them to hate everyone.

[AllieBaba]

Here's how it works in the US:

Johnny calls 9-1-1 to report emergency littering.

About 3 hours later, a deputy shows up at the house.

Johnny gets charged with illegally using the 9-1-1 line.

That is, of course, a Measure 11 sex crime

Johnny goes to court, and if he doesn't have a whole lotta moolah for a private defense, gets stuck with a dim-witted public defense lawyer who tells his mother to let him plead guilty.

Johnny gets put away for 10 years and is labeled a life-time sex offender.

OR

Johnny tells his teacher he saw somebody illegally littering.
The teacher calls the school resource "officer" who then calls a coupla buddies at the station...who start shadowing the alleged "perps" until they throw something out their window. Or maybe they don't throw something out their window, and the cops just decide to pretend they turned wide on a curve.
The perps get mouthy so they get the crap beat out of them, and they're arrested for resisting a police officer.

Happy happy joy joy, let's all cheer for turning our children into spies and making the POLICE and SCHOOLS garbage abuse monitors.:dance:

[Immanuel]

Too late, I already have.

And great suggestions, I think I'll try your none ideas.....or at least try my best to interpret them.........I imagine you think looking the other way while some asshole dumps shit in a vacant lot or spray paints a local business which my area badly needs is acceptable? I should be complacent and not report it if I see it, nor should anyone else? I guess no one likes a rat, right? :laugh2:

I don't know how things really work where you're from, but in this city we call the city by-law people and report that sort of thing (spray painting busineses, dumping shit all willy nilly etc). They decide if it's a criminal matter, although there usuallly is a fine involved, irregardless. As I've stated more than once, I think the numbers mentioned in the article is overkill, but it would be nice to see people cleaning up their own streets as it rarely works when it's left to police.

And, on a side note, there are several communities in North America (US/Canada) that have implemented similar programs (although the crimes reported were a tad more serious) and they have been VERY successful.

Sorry, young lady, but this is not about turning someone in for littering. This is about turning neighbors into spies against each other. It is about false arrest and false imprisonment. It is about what happens when you turn ordinary citizens into a Gestapo.

And on a side note: it is the duty of a citizen to report crimes such as vandalism and theft. Maybe you would sit around and let some thug beat the hell out of a neighbor unless of course you are rewarded by the government for turning in the criminal, but where I come from we already report crimes that we see. We don't have to be rewarded for doing so.

And since it is already our duty to report such things, rewarding kids for doing so only makes the likelihood that innocent people will be charged with crimes they did not commit.

Turning our kids into Hitler Youth is a bad idea no matter how you look at it.

Immie