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Kathianne
08-21-2008, 05:47 AM
Western Europe will not/cannot stand up to Russia. That's all about the oil and spending any money on defense. I do think they may be paying attention now that the US is not going to quickly engage in what is essentially a European problem.

Essentially, but not necessarily morally. The US, especially under the Clinton administration encouraged the expansion of NATO. They wanted to surround Russia with a pro-Western ring. To some degree, especially with Poland and the Baltics, they succeeded. Too bad for those countries that thought doing what the US was asking, assumed we'd rush to their aid if the need arose. We'll 'rattle cages' but are not going to head over there any time soon. Western Europe was not so quick to expand Europe, especially where it would be perceived by Russia to be aggressive; Georgia and the Ukraine. While the US couldn't overcome the EU, (Turkey being a different case in most ways), the US did get out front in encouraging the two important former satellites to become more and more independent.

It's been clear since the 50's that Western Europe had philosophically changed from a continent of aggression to one of narcissism on a geo-political scale. It seemed to the US that might be a very good thing, considering in less than 50 years the previous form had brought the pale blue ball two world wars. So for 20 years or so, the post-secular continent rebuilt, chastised the superpowers, and became an international institutions cheerleader. Corruption dominated some governments, several built up powerhouse economies, though none provided for security for themselves.

To their east though, things were very different. Within 15 years of the end of WWII, the entire East was the USSR, some by agreement, most by force. Berlin was the dividing line. The US became the force between the East and West. While that role led to some dangerous moments for the citizens of the US, mostly we seemed to like the 'control.' It took Europe out of the equation. The US and USSR would play chess all over the world. The war in Vietnam was just another showdown between US and USSR, one that developed into a lack of will to win by the politicians that had started it. Indeed, that was the beginning of change, for more than a generation, a defining era.

Then came the end of the USSR, in some larger or smaller degree because of US winning the chess game and the inevitable collapse of the Soviet system built on providing for military expansion at the price of their people's standard of living. So it seemed that the US was the last superpower standing.

To a lesser degree, this had happened twice before to the US, though without the recognition of such by the US or other nations. Both times the result ended with others rising to challenge the 'new order' as a nation or as a concert. Both times the results were a world war. Will the fact that the US and 'the world' recognized the period of sole superpower change the possible outcome of tipping the balance? In truth, most Americans recognized the lack of balance regarding power was not a good thing, but what to do with the vacuum created by the collapse of the USSR?

Now Russia has pushed back, albeit against a very small power, but the one with the closest ties to US. The first of the near abroad as they are now being referred to, that Rose up in Revolution, pun intended.

So here we are on the brink of historical elections in this country, looking at a world that is rapidly changing. It's not a safe world, indeed it seems to be one of the most obviously dangerous time that I have seen, without any immediate danger being clear and present. We are not building up our military, nor can we see any reason to. A new age of conflict seems to be arising, with 7th C enemies on one side; old foes with powerful weapons on the other. Everything is changing, while everything appears to be the same. Whatever the threat, if there is one, we are not yet recognizing it. The US has always battled within, unless a real threat is perceived, then mostly it becomes one. Not there, not yet, the elections illustrate that without comment being needed.

How will the future look? What alignments will there be? There are always alignments in dangerous times. Western Europe is changing, but glacially considering the times. Russia controls their lifeblood and they are fearful for good cause. The East however, they are standing together recognizing the US isn't currently going to do more than talk and rattle the cage. In some ways it reminds me of Poland taking on Germany, gallantly but futilely. Horses do not win against tanks. Will Russia finish their 'stand', pull back, regroup, and decide their next move? Will the traditional alignment of modern times see the US realign with Western Europe, finding some way to balance power without war?

So far I think the US has moved correctly, we do not belong as a sole power in Europe, it's not our continent. On the other hand, there is no 'power' in Europe but Russia, regardless of it's reemerging, but still relatively small military might. One thing both powers learned during the Cold War, nukes are not the most important weapon, using them is lose-lose.

Anyone have any further thoughts, corrections, observations?

Kathianne
08-21-2008, 09:22 AM
Just came across this on Blackfive.net. Seems people that know much more than myself are musing too:

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2008/08/georgia-the-mar.html#more


Georgia: The March Through Part of a Larger Tour?
Posted By Laughing_Wolf

Right now, much of what is going on is a holding pattern. Russia has bought time, and some freedom of maneuver of which they are taking full advantage. You should think of this, however, as the calm before the storm.

It is my opinion that the storm is indeed coming. Those that worried about starting a Cold War II missed the start by a couple of years. What matters right now is that Putin isn't doing typical Soviet-style bluster: he's deadly serious and is quite willing to take what has been a new Cold War and move it to warm or even hot. Our ability to prevent this is extremely limited in terms of time....

...There are reports that Russians are shooting at humanitarian aid aircraft flying above Georgian territory. The Russian response to demands that they return stolen U.S. military equipment appears to be "Caepxnte mehr, wimp" (not quite right, can't raise Cyrillic text).

As for what I said above, I have literally minutes to try to cover what should take several hours. The extremely short version is that the Russian's and their leadership feel that the United States has not only failed to keep its word to Russia, but have actively embarked on a path to try to keep Russia down. Even shorter, we've dissed them, and hard. From their point of view, the U.S. has failed to honor a number of pledges to them, including treating them as equals and as a true partner....

...One interesting fact that another analyst pointed out to me (and was mentioned in a previous post) that needs repeating is that for the first time in their history, the Russian people truly have something to lose. Under the Soviets, they pretty much just had their lives to lose; but, now they have a rising economy, access to goods, and an improving lifestyle. How this will effect things is a very large unknown, but it could have a considerable impact on Putin and his actions....

...

One final point that does tie into the above is the current use of language. The Soviets did bluster and bluff as an art form, and it was fairly easy to tell when they were doing so for public (domestic) consumption or to try to force a concession out of the West. The language they have used in regards the missile shield in Poland is NOT that, it is a very deliberate and specific use of language. When the Soviets used it, it was not bluff and things happened. It may have been clandestine, it may have been semi-clandestine, or it may have been open, but things happened.

I fear that the next two days to two weeks could be far more interesting than any of us could want. I fear that Georgia, Poland, the Ukraine (see Jim C's comment), and the Baltic states may well pay a very real price for desiring autonomy and aligning with the West, and for standing up to Putin...

Gaffer
08-21-2008, 10:45 AM
The days of Pearl Harbor are over. We can no longer watch potential threats become real action and expect we can build up, as in WW2, and come back to defeat our enemies. The weapons and technology of today mean things move way too fast.

The Cold War strategy was to buy time in Europe until massive military strikes against russia could be launched. This meant troops being sacrificed to stem the russian invasion until more could be sent in. With the end result being a nuclear exchange. That same mentality is at work today. To make matters worse we now have other countries in the mix with their own goals and ideologies. While MAD worked against the russians during the Cold War it might not work the same against them now and in the case of countries like iran it would not work at all. Cold War II has already begun and it can't be fought using the strategies of Cold War I.

If russia shuts off the oil and gas, what happens? It gets imported from other places. They lose money. Are they only going to sell it to certain other countries? If oil is a global market item, as is talked about so much, then it will simply be imported through other means. This will ensue some price increases but will hurt russia much more in the long run than it will the Europeans. If the US begins more drilling there will be a big market for the oil in Europe. Another plus for more drilling.

Kathianne
08-21-2008, 10:51 AM
The days of Pearl Harbor are over. We can no longer watch potential threats become real action and expect we can build up, as in WW2, and come back to defeat our enemies. The weapons and technology of today mean things move way too fast.

The Cold War strategy was to buy time in Europe until massive military strikes against russia could be launched. This meant troops being sacrificed to stem the russian invasion until more could be sent in. With the end result being a nuclear exchange. That same mentality is at work today. To make matters worse we now have other countries in the mix with their own goals and ideologies. While MAD worked against the russians during the Cold War it might not work the same against them now and in the case of countries like iran it would not work at all. Cold War II has already begun and it can't be fought using the strategies of Cold War I.

If russia shuts off the oil and gas, what happens? It gets imported from other places. They lose money. Are they only going to sell it to certain other countries? If oil is a global market item, as is talked about so much, then it will simply be imported through other means. This will ensue some price increases but will hurt russia much more in the long run than it will the Europeans. If the US begins more drilling there will be a big market for the oil in Europe. Another plus for more drilling.

Oil jumped $6 today because of the rising tensions. If Russia shuts off oil, within 1 week Europe would have major problems from production to autos. Russia has money in the bank and while Europe scrambled to compete for the oil with the rest of the world, the price would skyrocket for them and all oil consumers. Russia could just sell to anyone else.

We brought this on ourselves, by not drilling, building refineries, and nuclear power plants. So far, still no change. It should only make people adder at Pelosi and Reid, McCain would be well advised to hit Congress as he has Russia.

I still believe that the US is not going to rush to anything in Europe, militarily, first Europe must man up.

Kathianne
08-21-2008, 11:32 AM
There could be a show down of sorts:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080821/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia;_ylt=AhkmwFVnZZzFwylUYUSNrP1vaA8F


Russia blocks Georgia's main port city

By BELA SZANDELZSKY, Associated Press WriterThu Aug 21, 7:07 AM ET

Russian forces blocked the only land entrance to Georgia's main port city on Thursday, a day before Russia promised to complete a troop pullout from its ex-Soviet neighbor.

Armored personnel carriers and troop trucks blocked the bridge to the Black Sea port city of Poti, and Russian forces excavated trenches and set up mortars facing the city. Another group of APCs and trucks were positioned in a nearby wooded area.

Although Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has promised that his forces would pull back by Friday, Russian troops appear to be digging in, raising concern about whether Moscow is aiming for a lengthy occupation of its small, pro-Western neighbor.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili told The Associated Press that Russia was thinning out its presence in some occupied towns but was seizing other strategic spots. He called the Russian moves "some kind of deception game."

....

A U.S. official in Turkey said three U.S. military vessels were heading through Turkey's Bosporus, a strait that connects the Mediterranean with the Black Sea, to deliver aid to Georgia. Two of the ships were leaving Crete on Thursday. He declined to be named because he was not authorized to give that information to media.

Since Aug. 19, the United States has delivered aid to Georgia's capital, Tbilisi, on 20 flights.

Gaffer
08-21-2008, 11:36 AM
Oil jumped $6 today because of the rising tensions. If Russia shuts off oil, within 1 week Europe would have major problems from production to autos. Russia has money in the bank and while Europe scrambled to compete for the oil with the rest of the world, the price would skyrocket for them and all oil consumers. Russia could just sell to anyone else.

We brought this on ourselves, by not drilling, building refineries, and nuclear power plants. So far, still no change. It should only make people adder at Pelosi and Reid, McCain would be well advised to hit Congress as he has Russia.

I still believe that the US is not going to rush to anything in Europe, militarily, first Europe must man up.

Very true. Europe needs to finally get off their asses, pull their heads out of the sand and start taking real action.

The local bully is attacking, robbing and taking things over while using extortion to keep the neighborhood and police from taking action.