Fox News: 12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth about Georgia - watch Fox News' Reaction [Archive] - Debate Policy

-Cp

08-17-2008, 01:03 PM

emmett

08-17-2008, 02:06 PM

Kathianne

08-17-2008, 02:12 PM

This is the problem with "The World Police Officer Business". Whose side to you take? ANSWER: NONE! Stay the hell out of it.

Who is right and who is wrong? WHO CARES! When free and soverign nations become involved in other countries disputes they step backward and become a part of someone elses problem. Usually the circumstances are similar to that of the one that we liberated ourselves from.

Now, OK right wingers. You saw it on your own network, Fox friggin News so I know you believe it because you believe everything that Fox News produces. The aggressers were the Georgians. The hero's were the Russians. Now ready..........set..........spin!

Ok Libertarian ballyhooer, what do you think would happen if Russia feels able to control that pipeline to Europe? Exactly why do you think Bob Barr is truly libertarian? When did he have such an epiphany?

emmett

08-17-2008, 02:35 PM

Ok Libertarian ballyhooer, what do you think would happen if Russia feels able to control that pipeline to Europe? Exactly why do you think Bob Barr is truly libertarian? When did he have such an epiphany?

My dear Kathianne! I didn't mention the word Libertarian, Bob Barr or the Pipeline in my statement.

With all due respect and I certainly have it for you, stick to the point. I am a Fox News watcher myself as you certainly know but they do lean right, which thank God provides the only balance on News Television but my point is that we should NOT be involved. Couldn't there possibly be one little situation other than genecide in Africa that we could stay away from as a country? That's my point!

Now true, your connecting the dots and assuming that my statement was Libertarian Ballywhooing, well, OK, maybe so. Is it really soooooo wrong in foundation to not want to police the problems of everybody on earth.

Bob Barr, since YOU mentioned him, has evolved in recent years and seen the light. I believe eventually you will too. He is far more in line with what Mainstream Republicans believe than McCain, you know this. He is just going to hurt JM's count. I seem to recall you being a Fred Thompson supporter I believe, I'm sure you correct me if I am wrong, not that big on McCain as I recall it. Unity is important but foundation principle is more so.

It pains me to feel the effect of my "radical" beliefs in Liberty, Freedom and Personal Responsibility. I am however confused when I see a lady who has overcome the obsticles you have, persevered in the face of adversity and at times stood alone in your own personal life's quest, not understand the concept of Libertarianism. For if you truely did, I know a person with your intellect would vote her independant mind, not commitment to "party unity" which is what 70% of Republicans are doing right now and you know it. John McCain was the choice of less than 30% of Republicans before the primarys.

Top of the day to you Teach, you are still my favorite teacher in the world, even if you do think I'm...............let;s see, what did you call me the other day, ah...............oh well, it isn't important!

Gaffer

08-17-2008, 02:43 PM

This is the problem with "The World Police Officer Business". Whose side to you take? ANSWER: NONE! Stay the hell out of it.

Who is right and who is wrong? WHO CARES! When free and soverign nations become involved in other countries disputes they step backward and become a part of someone elses problem. Usually the circumstances are similar to that of the one that we liberated ourselves from.

Now, OK right wingers. You saw it on your own network, Fox friggin News so I know you believe it because you believe everything that Fox News produces. The aggressers were the Georgians. The hero's were the Russians. Now ready..........set..........spin!

The invasion of Ossetia was in response to the russian backed militia that was firing artillery into surrounding Georgian villages. The russian military was already in position to invade. Georgia was suckered into attacking then the over whelming response. It was an attempt to make the Georgians look like the bad guys, and you bought into it. This girl and her mother are propaganda tools for the russians. I saw the interview. She heard the artillery going over and they hid in a basement for the day and didn't hear any more. They then fled to north ossentia which is russian owned.

It was purely the Georgians business until the russians stepped in. That made it everyones business.

emmett

08-17-2008, 03:21 PM

It is their damn business! NOT OURS! It isn't important who was right and wrong. Do you get involved in your neighbors arguments? Do you feel you have the right in intercede in their business.

You are gonna say.......NO, unless one is beating the other one, then I have to!

Then I say......call the police and let them hash it out.......parity........let the "One World Order" deal with it. The United Nations folks. Not that I give a shit about them either but we might as well get some use out of building up there. I know propaganda when I see it, Fox bought into it, that was my point friend!

We need to stay the hell out of it!

Kathianne

08-17-2008, 03:25 PM

My dear Kathianne! I didn't mention the word Libertarian, Bob Barr or the Pipeline in my statement.

With all due respect and I certainly have it for you, stick to the point. I am a Fox News watcher myself as you certainly know but they do lean right, which thank God provides the only balance on News Television but my point is that we should NOT be involved. Couldn't there possibly be one little situation other than genecide in Africa that we could stay away from as a country? That's my point!

Now true, your connecting the dots and assuming that my statement was Libertarian Ballywhooing, well, OK, maybe so. Is it really soooooo wrong in foundation to not want to police the problems of everybody on earth.

Bob Barr, since YOU mentioned him, has evolved in recent years and seen the light. I believe eventually you will too. He is far more in line with what Mainstream Republicans believe than McCain, you know this. He is just going to hurt JM's count. I seem to recall you being a Fred Thompson supporter I believe, I'm sure you correct me if I am wrong, not that big on McCain as I recall it. Unity is important but foundation principle is more so.

It pains me to feel the effect of my "radical" beliefs in Liberty, Freedom and Personal Responsibility. I am however confused when I see a lady who has overcome the obsticles you have, persevered in the face of adversity and at times stood alone in your own personal life's quest, not understand the concept of Libertarianism. For if you truely did, I know a person with your intellect would vote her independant mind, not commitment to "party unity" which is what 70% of Republicans are doing right now and you know it. John McCain was the choice of less than 30% of Republicans before the primarys.

Top of the day to you Teach, you are still my favorite teacher in the world, even if you do think I'm...............let;s see, what did you call me the other day, ah...............oh well, it isn't important!
The problem is, many of you have taken a fine time to let the Dems win. I've been libertarian far longer than Bob Barr, who you claim has 'seen the light' in recent years, following his loss. Oh well, in no case will you see me promoting the likes of a Buchanan agenda, which Barr and his supporters are now doing.

Please don't tell me 'what I know to be true', which contradicts what I'm saying. Thank you.

manu1959

08-17-2008, 03:31 PM

the little girl is a russian she fled north.....if she was georgian she would have fled south......

gee what a shock she said the georgians started it.....

emmett

08-17-2008, 03:39 PM

The problem is, many of you have taken a fine time to let the Dems win. I've been libertarian far longer than Bob Barr, who you claim has 'seen the light' in recent years, following his loss. Oh well, in no case will you see me promoting the likes of a Buchanan agenda, which Barr and his supporters are now doing.

Please don't tell me 'what I know to be true', which contradicts what I'm saying. Thank you.

You just made my point for me, with all due respect. You said you are a Libertarian. OK, you don't agree with Bob Barr's total platform, yet you don't agree with John MCain's either. I repeat, you said you are a Libertarian.

VOTE LIBERTARIAN then.

manu1959

08-17-2008, 03:42 PM

You just made my point for me, with all due respect. You said you are a Libertarian. OK, you don't agree with Bob Barr's total platform, yet you don't agree with John MCain's either. I repeat, you said you are a Libertarian.

VOTE LIBERTARIAN then.

why is somone required to vote party line......

Kathianne

08-17-2008, 03:42 PM

You just made my point for me, with all due respect. You said you are a Libertarian. OK, you don't agree with Bob Barr's total platform, yet you don't agree with John MCain's either. I repeat, you said you are a Libertarian.

VOTE LIBERTARIAN then.

Barr is not Libertarian. McCain, whether I'm crazy for him or not, will be a better president. He's convinced me of that in the past month or so, especially the past week. I'll probably never be crazy positive for him, but I would never vote for Barr, whom I actually think is closer to authoritarian than libertarian.

Gaffer

08-17-2008, 04:26 PM

It is their damn business! NOT OURS! It isn't important who was right and wrong. Do you get involved in your neighbors arguments? Do you feel you have the right in intercede in their business.

You are gonna say.......NO, unless one is beating the other one, then I have to!

Then I say......call the police and let them hash it out.......parity........let the "One World Order" deal with it. The United Nations folks. Not that I give a shit about them either but we might as well get some use out of building up there. I know propaganda when I see it, Fox bought into it, that was my point friend!

We need to stay the hell out of it!

A poor analogy, you usually do better than that. Ignore the rest of the world and it will go away is what your saying.

Should russia be allowed to just take over Georgia? How many other countries should they be allowed to take over? Should iran be allowed to build nukes? It's none of our business according to you. Guess it was none of our business when that 2004 tsunami hit in the Indian Ocean. If you turn your back one thing you need to turn your back on everything.

You always impressed me as being a pretty deep thinker. But now I'm not so sure. If a good friends is attacked, would you step in? If your presence preempts an attack on your friend would you step in? If so why should it be any different with countries?

Trade and the world economy affect us everyday. To pull back and say it's none of our business is the epitome of stupid.

Hobbit

08-17-2008, 10:22 PM

You know, we tried the 'it's none of our damn business' line in both world wars. When somebody like Russia is trying to control Europe's entire oil supply, we can't stay out of it. If we don't go to war, war will come to us, at which point it will probably cost us more blood and treasure than we can afford.

Lana

08-18-2008, 03:45 PM

Just got a reply from my dad on this video - who knows the Russian stuff very well...

He said you do need to understand that this girl and her Aunt are both Ossetian's - an area that's tradtionally been a providence of Georgia and has been trying to break free...

It's been a part of Georgia for around 200 years - it'd be the equvilent of a northern county in WA trying to break free from the state of WA and got help from Canada....

Always interesting to get perspective from all sides...

That is simply not true. Ossetia became part of the RUSSIAN empire in 1801 (200 hundred years your Dad was talking about). And Georgia at that time was at serious war with Iran, and was in a critical state, almost destroyed and burned, so Georgia begged to become part of the Russian empire. And in 1801 Russia finally agreed to make Georgia part of itself and to protect Georgia with Russian army.

After the soviet revolution, in 1921 Georgia was forced to adopt soviet regime and become part of the USSR, just like in 1922 Ossetia was forced by now soviet georgian governenment to become part of Georgia.

After the fall of the soviet regime Georgia, naturally, declared itself free from USSR bonds and Russia, and so did Ossetia, also very naturally, as for 70 years they were forced to be part of soviet Georgia, whereas they were a free nation for hundreds and hundreds of years, even during the times of the queen Tamara in 1250.

So, to claim that Ossetia should be part of Georgia is that same as to claim that Georgia should be part of Russia.

Kathianne

08-18-2008, 03:51 PM

That is simply not true. Ossetia became part of the RUSSIAN empire in 1801 (200 hundred years your Dad was talking about). And Georgia at that time was at serious war with Iran, and was in a critical state, almost destroyed and burned, so Georgia begged to become part of the Russian empire. And in 1801 Russia finally agreed to make Georgia part of itself and to protect Georgia with Russian army.

After the soviet revolution, in 1921 Georgia was forced to adopt soviet regime and become part of the USSR, just like in 1922 Ossetia was forced by now soviet georgian governenment to become part of Georgia.

After the fall of the soviet regime Georgia, naturally, declared itself free from USSR bonds and Russia, and so did Ossetia, also very naturally, as for 70 years they were forced to be part of soviet Georgia, whereas they were a free nation for hundreds and hundreds of years, even during the times of the queen Tamara in 1250.

So, to claim that Ossetia should be part of Georgia is that same as to claim that Georgia should be part of Russia.

Wrong. South Ossetia declaring breakaway might have credence via Russian arguments if Chechnya did also. They don't.

Gaffer

08-18-2008, 07:19 PM

Things that make you go hmmmm. We haven't had any posters from russia on this board ever, and now we suddenly have two.

Abbey Marie

08-18-2008, 08:28 PM

Things that make you go hmmmm. We haven't had any posters from russia on this board ever, and now we suddenly have two.

Hey Gaffer, who besides Lana?

emmett

08-18-2008, 08:43 PM

A poor analogy, you usually do better than that. Ignore the rest of the world and it will go away is what your saying.

Should russia be allowed to just take over Georgia? How many other countries should they be allowed to take over? Should iran be allowed to build nukes? It's none of our business according to you. Guess it was none of our business when that 2004 tsunami hit in the Indian Ocean. If you turn your back one thing you need to turn your back on everything.

You always impressed me as being a pretty deep thinker. But now I'm not so sure. If a good friends is attacked, would you step in? If your presence preempts an attack on your friend would you step in? If so why should it be any different with countries?

Trade and the world economy affect us everyday. To pull back and say it's none of our business is the epitome of stupid.

Ok, let me clarify! NO! I do not think we should be the world's police officer. "Stupid" as I may be I just thinnk that we will better served to concentrate on our own at this particular time. I am aware that Russia is the 2nd largest oil producer if you want to talk about trade and no I do not think Iran needs to have a nuclear weapon.

Putin is a scoundrel and I aware if this. There are enough problems goping on enough bad and rogue nations to keep us in the police business 24-7-365. All the while the resources we squander on these events are bleeding us dry.

I never at any time said I do not believe in helping neighbors you took what I said a little of context.

We have boomers! Ohio class Submarines that do not have to fire a shot but if necessary can put an end to Russia's shit in a heartbeat. They know this, Puting knows this. Our Navy constantly outclesses our adversaries every time they get near us. We go about this police officer stuff the wrong way.

So, now......damn, what kind of kook is this Emmett. Well, I'll tell you. I would order a bombing of the already known to be Taliban controlled region of the Pakistan border that would make the earth glow for days and I guarentee you it would make a point that all the invasions of foriegn countries, police actions and negotiation could not.

I'm not soft on defense. I'm not against helping neighbors, I'm against pussyfooting and causing the needless deaths of our soldiers and wasting of our dollars and other resources that we so desperately need at this time.

I am all for standing tall on our nuclear deterrant in the former Soviet controlled areas where we have reached agreements with those countries to have the missiles there.

I just believe armed conflicts are obsolete.

The Georgia problem is their problem. It isn't our fault Georgia is located where it is. Do you really think you are going to win a footwar in Russia or in a neighboring country of Russia.......with Russia. Come on Gaffer, maybe the epitamy of stupid might not have been the right term huh? Police officers get killed and that is exactly what would happen to us if we choose to overinvolve ourselves in this scirmage.

What are you going to do when China decides to flex. I guess you are going to order 125,000 troops to go over and fight an army that OUTNUMBERS our entire population, right? Now before you jump me and say, Oh Emmett they only have ........so many million in their army........don't be fooled brother, if they go to war evry male in China will be a soldier.

Keep what I said in context. I'll repeat it. We need to stay the fuck out of other's business. That does not mean we do not need to monitor and attempt these situations with interest. We should protect our trade interests. These things do not mean we have to muster an army every time there is a conflict that takes place between one of our allies and it's foe. That is not what we are for. 2 years from now this will have been forgotten.

We went to Viet Nam doing the same EXACT thing we would be doing if we went to Georgia. We got our royal ass kicked. We were forced to throw in the towel. It hurt our "fear value" immensely. Countries began to "try" us after that.

Ah.....................Korea!

Central America..............and don't even start with we didn't go to Central America. I know different brother. We got it handed to us there also.

Now, if it became a situation where Russia decided to invade and control Georgia......and it could happen, then I might rethink my idea. For now, we need to stay out if .......militarily!

Winning battles is for history books. The time to fight is when there is a war. The place to fight a war is when you are defending your own soil. If everyone would practice that there would be no wars. If it is so important that Georgia be defended right now then why can't some of our Europian Allies come to their assistance. They are closer and have better geographical ability and not to mention more incentive.

Let me ask you this. Why should we be so worried Georgia anyway? Not that I am insensative to any countries need to be soveriegn and free, it's a question of practicality, what do they do for us Gaffer? I'll tell you what, pay my rent for me and I'll ignore you until I am being picked on and you have the Georgia equation. What the hell have they ever done for us? Personally I am not willing to risk American lives for a country that has nothing to do with our subsistance. If I did choose to help them i would do it with the USS Ohio, it would extremely effective, the situation would be over and not one single American soldier would die.

Now...maybe I have clarified myself....maybe not but that is my story and I am sticking to it.

PS....I think alot you too.

emmett

08-18-2008, 08:44 PM

Oh yes, and the Tsunami point were the apples you stuck in the bag of oranges. That's an entirely different matter. We should always lend humanitarian assistance whenever necessary and within our capability. Even to an enemy on a "ours first" basis.

No1tovote4

08-18-2008, 08:49 PM

The title should read:

Twelve Year Old Girl Repeats what she has heard from her parents, liberals begin to salivate.

No1tovote4

08-18-2008, 08:55 PM

Am I the only person that hears echoes of the Sudetenland in all of this?

retiredman

08-18-2008, 08:58 PM

Am I the only person that hears echoes of the Sudetenland in all of this?

not at all damo...that makes two of us!

No1tovote4

08-18-2008, 09:01 PM

not at all damo...that makes two of us!

People are not kidding when they say history repeats itself.

retiredman

08-18-2008, 09:03 PM

People are not kidding when they say history repeats itself.
we fail to learn from history at our own peril, no doubt.

Kathianne

08-19-2008, 04:46 AM

Am I the only person that hears echoes of the Sudetenland in all of this?

Nope, Gaffer and I were speaking of such a lot over the weekend. Unfortunately most don't seem to be interested. Probably war weariness and fear of what might be rolling along here.

Gaffer

08-19-2008, 07:31 AM

Hey Gaffer, who besides Lana?

A guy named russian. Started posting here right after the war got started in Georgia.

Abbey Marie

08-19-2008, 10:05 AM

A guy named russian. Started posting here right after the war got started in Georgia.

Clever disguise. :laugh2:

Lana

08-20-2008, 12:10 PM

Should russia be allowed to just take over Georgia? How many other countries should they be allowed to take over?

Nobody is trying to take over Georgia. Georgia was part of Russia since 1801. They begged us to become part of the Russian Empire because they were almost destroyed by Turkey. After the fall of the USSR we let them go.

Americans are told that Russia started bombing Georgia, we are told that Georgia started it, and Russia is helping Ossetia to become independant. But nobody knows for sure. There is no evidence. Ordinary Russian people are aginst wars of any kind - we don't need these former USSR republics because were are big enough without them. If you would come to Moscow you would see that that there are millions and millions of Caucasians here. They come looking for big and easy money. They don't want to go back to their own countries.

Kathianne

08-20-2008, 12:22 PM

Right, Lana:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080820/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia

Russians dig in as pullback drags on in Georgia

By MIKE ECKEL, Associated Press Writer 19 minutes ago

Russian forces on Wednesday built a sentry post just 30 miles from the Georgian capital, appearing to dig in to positions deep inside Georgia despite pledges to pull back to areas mandated by a cease-fire signed by both countries.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev says his troops will complete their pullback by Friday, but few signs of movement have been seen other than the departure of a small contingent that have held the strategically key city of Gori.

A convoy of flatbed trucks carrying badly needed food aid to one of the areas most heavily hit by the fighting was waved through a checkpoint by Russian soldiers. And the U.S. State Department, meanwhile, said Turkey was allowing three U.S. military ships to pass through the Turkish Straits from the Mediterranean to the Black Sea to deliver humanitarian relief supplies to Georgia.

But conditions throughout much of Georgia remained tense.

Russian soldiers were setting up camp Wednesday in at least three positions in west-central Georgia. Further east, soldiers were building a sentry post of timber on a hill outside Igoeti, 30 miles from Tbilisi and the closest point to the capital where Russian troops have maintained a significant presence....

Lana

08-20-2008, 12:25 PM

If a good friends is attacked, would you step in? If your presence preempts an attack on your friend would you step in? If so why should it be any different with countries?

Trade and the world economy affect us everyday. To pull back and say it's none of our business is the epitome of stupid.

We have a joke about that. Americans ask, "Do you have democracy? No??? Then we are flying over to bomb you".

Americans took over Indians. Should we help out Indians to take their land back from you?

I understand that Americans believe that by "stepping in" they are helping other contries. But you like to do it on your own, without approval of the international organizations. Why do you believe that you can be the JUDGE? You have a very good propaganda in your country, and your governement easily makes you believe in anything. But for US government (not for American people, who are not aware), I'm sure, it's all about money and power, not about helping others.

Kathianne

08-20-2008, 12:31 PM

We have a joke about that. Americans ask, "Do you have democracy? No??? Then we are flying over to bomb you".

Americans took over Indians. Should we help out Indians to take their land back from you?

I understand that Americans believe that by "stepping in" they are helping other contries. But you like to do it on your own, without approval of the international organizations. Why do you believe that you can be the JUDGE? You have a very good propaganda in your country, and your governement easily makes you believe in anything. But for US government (not for American people, who are not aware), I'm sure, it's all about money and power, not about helping others.

Our government cannot hope to compete with yours regarding propaganda, there is no Pravda here. In fact, the media is the most critical of government of US. If you read our most read dailies, you would find they have tried to spin for Russia.

International oganizations? NATO, G8? Western Europe is cowed by oil. UN? Russia has veto.

What are you looking for?

Gaffer

08-21-2008, 09:03 AM

Nobody is trying to take over Georgia. Georgia was part of Russia since 1801. They begged us to become part of the Russian Empire because they were almost destroyed by Turkey. After the fall of the USSR we let them go.

Americans are told that Russia started bombing Georgia, we are told that Georgia started it, and Russia is helping Ossetia to become independant. But nobody knows for sure. There is no evidence. Ordinary Russian people are aginst wars of any kind - we don't need these former USSR republics because were are big enough without them. If you would come to Moscow you would see that that there are millions and millions of Caucasians here. They come looking for big and easy money. They don't want to go back to their own countries.

Our last russian visitor just rolled and disappeared. At least you are sticking around and giving opinions. I don't know how much uncontrolled access to the internet you have but you might want to do a little research on Georgia and the history of the region. Second in bloodiness only to the muslims.

Putin is a thug who is leading your country in a very dangerous direction. While taking over a country like Georgia doesn't help as far as land mass goes, the population adds to the tax base and the resources or access to them, including ports helps strengthen the economy of russia. And if you think putin is interested in the welfare of the Georgian people, better look again. His only concern is the exploitation of the region. The Black Sea Fleet is going to need a new home in ten years, Polti (sp) is looking good to him right now.

Russia has always been paranoid of the west. A paranoia fed by your media and government. You have been raised believing America is going to attack and take over Russia, which is as far from the truth as you can possibly get.

Americans took over Indians. Should we help out Indians to take their land back from you?

I understand that Americans believe that by "stepping in" they are helping other contries. But you like to do it on your own, without approval of the international organizations. Why do you believe that you can be the JUDGE? You have a very good propaganda in your country, and your governement easily makes you believe in anything. But for US government (not for American people, who are not aware), I'm sure, it's all about money and power, not about helping others.

I'm part Indian myself. There are millions like me. What was eliminated of the Indian cultures was the primitive tribe mentality. It's still there among some, but most now use the tribe as a means of economic gain, or just a sense of pride.

When the US steps into another countries conflicts, it's usually for humanitarian reasons or to protect our interests in the region. It's been shown for 60 years that getting international approval is not going to happen. Especially with countries like russia and china sitting on the security council blocking every effort made.

The MSM (main stream media) as we call it, is nothing more than a liberal tool that gives no news and information that isn't approved by the democrat party. Most of us use other sources now days. The fighting in Georgia took five days to get on the news here. And its not government propaganda, it's liberal propaganda. The government actually doesn't say much and when they do they are usually wrong.

Something I read and hear all the time from people in other countries is, "it's not the American people we hate, it's the American government." Well, I have news for everyone that thinks that way. It's the American people that put that government in place and can take it out. It takes action on behave of the American people, not on it's own behave. Any aid, assistance or even military action comes from the American people. So if you don't like the American government then you don't like the American people. I suggest you take a serious look at your own media and your own leaders before condemning someone else's.

Lana

08-21-2008, 10:22 AM

OK, here goes a reply to everybody who replied to my messages. I was a little harsh yesterday. The only reason I registered here and put my comments was because I saw an absolutely ridiculous and false statement about Ossetia being part of Georgia for 200 years. I meant to give only facts with historical dates, not emotions.

Regarding propaganda: it doesn't work here, in Russia, anymore. We have been lied by our government for so many years, that nobody trusts them anymore. At least I don't. But here, in Russia, I open internet site with news and I read the following, "Russia is retreating it's forces from Georgia. A BBC reporter is saying that Russians are retreating very slowly. And Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Georgia is saying that Russians are building what looks like a stationary post near Poti." I like that kind of news, when you read everybodies opinion. It seems to me that in America you get only one kind of news regarding this war: Russia is the aggressor, killing poor georgian people. And this video with 12-year girls proves that. She said that Georgia was the agressor - and .... commercial break and... end of conversation. If she would have said that Russia was the aggressor - guess what - there would be a lengthy conversation.

When I was talking about American Government vs. American people, I wanted to say that you do not have access to all the facts, you have access to a small particle of truth, and based on that you make a decision to support your governement in this and other wars and in other matters. If you knew Russian language, for example, you would read, and hear, and see with your own eyes so much about what Georgians did to Ossetins and Russians in this and other wars, that you would never support Georgia.

Kathianne

08-21-2008, 10:26 AM

OK, here goes a reply to everybody who replied to my messages. I was a little harsh yesterday. The only reason I registered here and put my comments was because I saw an absolutely ridiculous and false statement about Ossetia being part of Georgia for 200 years. I meant to give only facts with historical dates, not emotions.

...

Do you really think we don't get BBC or reports on Russian news? Our news reports on your news.

Lana, our problems stem from watching this ongoing ratcheting up of aggression, first against your media, journalists; later the obvious assassination of the former spy in the UK. Putin has been making threats about former satellites for a couple years, a week ago he made it real.

He's threatened the Ukraine with possible invasion, nukes. Now the same with Poland.

Lana

08-21-2008, 10:39 AM

You have been raised believing America is going to attack and take over Russia, which is as far from the truth as you can possibly get.

I'm younger than that. I'm 30 years old, and when I was a teenager, I loved America. I dreamed about becoming an attorney, earning some good money, and going to visit America one day. I was an exchange student in America back in 1994-1995, and since that I visited US several times, and I feel that it's my second Motherland. I have lots of American friends whom I love. And until lately I thought that American government is the best in the world. And I truthfully admit that you do have some good people in the government, and that in America it is possible to be a true and honorable man (or woman) and to occupy a position of authority. But within the last several months I saw several documenal movies that featured different scholars, including American ones, who talk about how America makes money "taxing" the whole world with it's dollars (and I have no doubt what you would think of that - "baloony"), and I don't have much respect for US actions lately. That's why I distinguish between Amercian people, and American government.

Gaffer

08-21-2008, 12:35 PM

I'm younger than that. I'm 30 years old, and when I was a teenager, I loved America. I dreamed about becoming an attorney, earning some good money, and going to visit America one day. I was an exchange student in America back in 1994-1995, and since that I visited US several times, and I feel that it's my second Motherland. I have lots of American friends whom I love. And until lately I thought that American government is the best in the world. And I truthfully admit that you do have some good people in the government, and that in America it is possible to be a true and honorable man (or woman) and to occupy a position of authority. But within the last several months I saw several documenal movies that featured different scholars, including American ones, who talk about how America makes money "taxing" the whole world with it's dollars (and I have no doubt what you would think of that - "baloony"), and I don't have much respect for US actions lately. That's why I distinguish between Amercian people, and American government.

Your command of English is commendable. And having lived here you know what people here are like better that most in your country. There was a time, during the Cold War, that we would not have been having this conversation. Russia made some great steps forward after the fall of the USSR. Unfortunately putin seems to want to take things backwards.

Many of us here don't take anything at face value. We use the news as a spring board to check out more throughly what is going on in the world as well as the history of why it is happening. No one says Georgia is innocent in anything. Their biggest claim to fame is having produced stalin. Not exactly a triumph for the Georgians or the Russian people.

This is putins war, not Russia's war. Even your current president is under putins thumb. If you disagree with him or stand against him things happen to you. Someone with evidence against the clintons has a better chance of surviving than someone looking to disgrace putin.

Good to see you posting here. You might want to read some of the politcal posts here and join in when you can. Always interesting to get an outside opinion.

What do you think of putins method of placing Russians into countries and giving people russian passports as an excuse of going into countries to "protect" russian citizens? This is what hitler did at the start of WW2.

Abbey Marie

08-21-2008, 03:06 PM

...
Something I read and hear all the time from people in other countries is, "it's not the American people we hate, it's the American government." Well, I have news for everyone that thinks that way. It's the American people that put that government in place and can take it out. It takes action on behave of the American people, not on it's own behave. Any aid, assistance or even military action comes from the American people. So if you don't like the American government then you don't like the American people. I suggest you take a serious look at your own media and your own leaders before condemning someone else's.

Gaffer, I feel the same way when I hear people say that they support our soliders, but not the war they are fighting. An illogical statement that has become quite fashionable in certain circles.

retiredman

08-21-2008, 03:27 PM

Gaffer, I feel the same way when I hear people say that they support our soliders, but not the war they are fighting. An illogical statement that has become quite fashionable in certain circles.

so you think it is "illogical" to, on one hand, be fully supportive of an all volunteer fighting force and hope and pray for their success and safety, while, on the other hand, disagree with the way some administrations might misuse those forces in pursuit of an ill-advised foreign policy?

THAT is "illogical" to even suggest such an absurdity.

apples and oranges.

Abbey Marie

08-21-2008, 03:35 PM

so you think it is "illogical" to, on one hand, be fully supportive of an all volunteer fighting force and hope and pray for their success and safety, while, on the other hand, disagree with the way some administrations might misuse those forces in pursuit of an ill-advised foreign policy?

THAT is "illogical" to even suggest such an absurdity.

apples and oranges.

What is absurd is this scenario: As my husband walks out the door to go to work, I tell him:

'Hey, honey, you know that I support you 100%, I care about you, and only wish you the best. And I am so proud of you!

But, you know what? I think the work you are doing is dead wrong. It's evil. Your boss is a complete idiot for taking on that project and making you do it. The job you are doing is an embarassment in front of the whole world, and I am 100% against it. I wish to God you wouldn't do that job".
Now have a nice day, hon. Remember- I support you!"

Yes, I'm sure that all that seems quite logical to hubby (or solider) and he is thrilled to have such support. :rolleyes:

Kathianne

08-21-2008, 03:39 PM

What is absurd is this scenario: As my husband walks out the door to go to work, I tell him:

'Hey, honey, you know that I support you 100%, I care about you, and only wish you the best. And I am so proud of you!

But, you know what? I think the work you are doing is dead wrong. It's evil. Your boss is a complete idiot for taking on that project and making you do it. The job you are doing is an embarassment in front of the whole world, and I am 100% against it. I wish to God you wouldn't do that job".
Now have a nice day, hon. Remember- I support you!"

Yes, I'm sure that all that seems quite logical to hubby (or solider) and he is thrilled to have such support. :rolleyes:

Yep, the left is saying, "Your mission is wrong, illegal at worst, ill meaning at best." BTW, we support you. So, if they keep their oath they are what? Ignore their superiors? Built right into the argument.

Gaffer

08-21-2008, 03:41 PM

Here's some real interesting reading. Especially the huffington post article Georgia at War; what I saw 20 August.

http://russiangeorgianwar.blogspot.com/

I posted this here because Lana seems to be staying in this thread and I would like her responses to the articles. This is the kind of stuff that's not reported by our regular media.

The internet opens a lot of doors now days and people don't have to rely on one source for truthful information. It's going to get more and more difficult for people like putin to conduct their criminal activity without close scrutiny.

Bush is talking tougher to russia now too. There are navy ships moving into the area. There are most likely already special forces on the ground there, well behind the russian lines and I expect there will be US combat forces moving into Georgia soon.

Interesting too is that russia is bringing up Israel as a supplier of Georgia. Interviews with russian generals can be very telling about motivations and who they are allied with. iran?

So many things that make you go hmmmm.

red states rule

08-21-2008, 03:44 PM

so you think it is "illogical" to, on one hand, be fully supportive of an all volunteer fighting force and hope and pray for their success and safety, while, on the other hand, disagree with the way some administrations might misuse those forces in pursuit of an ill-advised foreign policy?

THAT is "illogical" to even suggest such an absurdity.

apples and oranges.

Who are the Democrats who have prayed for their success and safety? All I have heard from the left is how the war is lost, the surge was a waste of time and resources, and they have called the troops infidels, terrorists, cold blooded killers, uneducated, and compared them to Nazi's and Pol Pot

Kathianne

08-21-2008, 03:47 PM

Here's some real interesting reading. Especially the huffington post article Georgia at War; what I saw 20 August.

http://russiangeorgianwar.blogspot.com/

I posted this here because Lana seems to be staying in this thread and I would like her responses to the articles. This is the kind of stuff that's not reported by our regular media.

The internet opens a lot of doors now days and people don't have to rely on one source for truthful information. It's going to get more and more difficult for people like putin to conduct their criminal activity without close scrutiny.

Bush is talking tougher to russia now too. There are navy ships moving into the area. There are most likely already special forces on the ground there, well behind the russian lines and I expect there will be US combat forces moving into Georgia soon.

Interesting too is that russia is bringing up Israel as a supplier of Georgia. Interviews with russian generals can be very telling about motivations and who they are allied with. iran?

So many things that make you go hmmmm.
Great post. The person that cared for my mom for two years was a MD from the Ukraine, she had to return back for family reasons, (not because of INS, though that should have been easy enough). She returned here this summer, after 3 years in Ukraine. I asked her then what she thought of Putin, "He's not so bad, we are ok, I'm making money and better than we ever expected." Mind you, she never wanted to go back, she hated the system. Her parents are university professors, but their internet usage at home is about 9 minutes per week. Her younger sister is in US legally, trying to get the rest of family here too.

Nataliya and I are as close to 'sisters' as I can be with anyone. Yet, even with the acknowledgments of differences, I can't get her pov, couldn't even before Georgia.

Gaffer

08-21-2008, 03:49 PM

so you think it is "illogical" to, on one hand, be fully supportive of an all volunteer fighting force and hope and pray for their success and safety, while, on the other hand, disagree with the way some administrations might misuse those forces in pursuit of an ill-advised foreign policy?

THAT is "illogical" to even suggest such an absurdity.

apples and oranges.

I see the thread disrupter has arrived. Have you any opinion on this war? or are you just here to start a name calling fight with someone? We know you hate Bush and the administration so you can leave that part out and give your opinion on the war itself.

retiredman

08-21-2008, 08:21 PM

What is absurd is this scenario: As my husband walks out the door to go to work, I tell him:

'Hey, honey, you know that I support you 100%, I care about you, and only wish you the best. And I am so proud of you!

But, you know what? I think the work you are doing is dead wrong. It's evil. Your boss is a complete idiot for taking on that project and making you do it. The job you are doing is an embarassment in front of the whole world, and I am 100% against it. I wish to God you wouldn't do that job".
Now have a nice day, hon. Remember- I support you!"

Yes, I'm sure that all that seems quite logical to hubby (or solider) and he is thrilled to have such support. :rolleyes:

well abbey...my guess is that I have a bit more experience in the area of military service than you do. The United States military is a professional organization that goes and does whatever the hell the civilian command authority tells it to...and they do it with enormous professionalism. They don't have to agree with the foreign policy goals of the administration in power that sends them to wherever the hell they are sent, they only have to hit the ground running and try their very best to prevail in whatever mission the suits send them into.

I can sit here, as a 25 year military retiree, and cheer on our military - those folks who followed me into service in uniform under arms in defense of our nation - and hope that they prevail in every battle, that every round they chamber finds its target and ever round fired at them misses, and, at the same time, I can disagree with the foreign policy decisions that our commander in chief has made and the uses of the military that he has engendered.

To suggest that some misguided form of "patriotism" prevents patriotic American citizens from voicing their displeasure at the foreign policy decisions of our government is a vile and repugnant notion to me.

Abbey Marie

08-21-2008, 08:34 PM

What I find vile and repugnant, is to make these brave and honorable people feel like they are doing something worthless, or worse yet, vert wrong, while they are, as you say, doing what their CIC tells them to do.

Honestly? One doesn't need to be in the military him/herself to see that.

retiredman

08-21-2008, 09:04 PM

What I find vile and repugnant, is to make these brave and honorable people feel like they are doing something worthless, or worse yet, vert wrong, while they are, as you say, doing what their CIC tells them to do.

Honestly? One doesn't need to be in the military him/herself to see that.

Those brave and honorable service members have one job: to implement the foreign policy initiatives of the civilian military command authority.

I, for one, hope they do that job well. It is what they have been trained to do, it is what they are paid to do, it is what they enlisted to do.

My hopes in that regard do NOT limit my rights, as a citizen of this country, to question the foreign policy initiatives of the president.

For you to attempt to muzzle me on that point, or to cast my refusal to be muzzled as somehow indicative of my lack of support for our troops earns you a :fu: and my strongest condemnation.

Gaffer

08-21-2008, 09:42 PM

Those brave and honorable service members have one job: to implement the foreign policy initiatives of the civilian military command authority.

I, for one, hope they do that job well. It is what they have been trained to do, it is what they are paid to do, it is what they enlisted to do.

My hopes in that regard do NOT limit my rights, as a citizen of this country, to question the foreign policy initiatives of the president.

For you to attempt to muzzle me on that point, or to cast my refusal to be muzzled as somehow indicative of my lack of support for our troops earns you a :fu: and my strongest condemnation.

I knew you were in here to pick a fight with someone.

You don't disagree with the administration. You hate and despise it and you want to see in undermined in any way possible. Kinda like suing the police department for brutality while praising the police for doing a wonderful job.

You have never figured it out that you make the country appear divided and encourage the enemy, thereby extending the war by years more than necessary.

For a retired military person you don't have much understanding of strategy or how to psych out the enemy. If you do understand those things, then your not a patriot.

You haven't been muzzled by anyone. But I'm sure you will be soon as you can't resist attacking and cussing people out.

Immanuel

08-21-2008, 10:05 PM

What is absurd is this scenario: As my husband walks out the door to go to work, I tell him:

'Hey, honey, you know that I support you 100%, I care about you, and only wish you the best. And I am so proud of you!

But, you know what? I think the work you are doing is dead wrong. It's evil. Your boss is a complete idiot for taking on that project and making you do it. The job you are doing is an embarassment in front of the whole world, and I am 100% against it. I wish to God you wouldn't do that job".
Now have a nice day, hon. Remember- I support you!"

Yes, I'm sure that all that seems quite logical to hubby (or solider) and he is thrilled to have such support. :rolleyes:

Yep, the left is saying, "Your mission is wrong, illegal at worst, ill meaning at best." BTW, we support you. So, if they keep their oath they are what? Ignore their superiors? Built right into the argument.

I totally disagree with both of you.

I was with the President up until the point of the capture of Saddam Hussein. From that point on I feel as we should be getting out of Iraq. I realize that is an unpopular feeling, but that is tough. I don't believe we need to occupy Iraq for the rest of our natural lives and despite the bullshit that Condi Rice (whom I have always respected) about an agreement for us to pull out I don't think we're ever coming out of there. At least not as long as there is oil there and we still depend on oil.

I support our troops with my prayers and in other small ways. I realize that they are there doing a job we have hired them to do. I don't envy them their jobs right now, that is for sure, but I support them 100%.

I think George Bush F'd up this war so poorly that it isn't even funny. It is a disgrace and quite frankly I find him to be a disgrace. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for fighting terrorists. But, it seems to me that George had his head up his ass when he listened to his advisers telling him send the troops into Baghdad, put targets on their backs and tell them to do us proud.

Any 5 year old can tell you that you don't fight unseen enemies by standing out in the middle of the road and hollering, "Come get me you pork eating SOBs".

Supporting the troops and supporting a poorly run administration are two different things. IMHO.

Immie

Kathianne

08-21-2008, 10:13 PM

I totally disagree with both of you.

I was with the President up until the point of the capture of Saddam Hussein. From that point on I feel as we should be getting out of Iraq. I realize that is an unpopular feeling, but that is tough. I don't believe we need to occupy Iraq for the rest of our natural lives and despite the bullshit that Condi Rice (whom I have always respected) about an agreement for us to pull out I don't think we're ever coming out of there. At least not as long as there is oil there and we still depend on oil.

I support our troops with my prayers and in other small ways. I realize that they are there doing a job we have hired them to do. I don't envy them their jobs right now, that is for sure, but I support them 100%.

I think George Bush F'd up this war so poorly that it isn't even funny. It is a disgrace and quite frankly I find him to be a disgrace. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for fighting terrorists. But, it seems to me that George had his head up his ass when he listened to his advisers telling him send the troops into Baghdad, put targets on their backs and tell them to do us proud.

Any 5 year old can tell you that you don't fight unseen enemies by standing out in the middle of the road and hollering, "Come get me you pork eating SOBs".

Supporting the troops and supporting a poorly run administration are two different things. IMHO.

Immieand that changes what for the troops?

Gaffer

08-21-2008, 10:50 PM

I totally disagree with both of you.

I was with the President up until the point of the capture of Saddam Hussein. From that point on I feel as we should be getting out of Iraq. I realize that is an unpopular feeling, but that is tough. I don't believe we need to occupy Iraq for the rest of our natural lives and despite the bullshit that Condi Rice (whom I have always respected) about an agreement for us to pull out I don't think we're ever coming out of there. At least not as long as there is oil there and we still depend on oil.

I support our troops with my prayers and in other small ways. I realize that they are there doing a job we have hired them to do. I don't envy them their jobs right now, that is for sure, but I support them 100%.

I think George Bush F'd up this war so poorly that it isn't even funny. It is a disgrace and quite frankly I find him to be a disgrace. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for fighting terrorists. But, it seems to me that George had his head up his ass when he listened to his advisers telling him send the troops into Baghdad, put targets on their backs and tell them to do us proud.

Any 5 year old can tell you that you don't fight unseen enemies by standing out in the middle of the road and hollering, "Come get me you pork eating SOBs".

Supporting the troops and supporting a poorly run administration are two different things. IMHO.

Immie

So following the capture of saddam we should have just left? To hell with the consequences, don't worry about aq and iran and who's going to fill the power vacuum. Just pack up and leave. That will do wonders for our image in the world.

Bush did screw up. But he corrected that screw up and iraq is becoming a success. What he did or didn't do wrong has yet to be played out.

You know nothing about combat. It doesn't happen at all the way you picture it. Your trying to paint a simplistic picture that is much more complex than you can imagine.

And lets not forget who saddams biggest supporter was....russia. Now we are having to face them down and it may turn into a shooting war. Are you ready for that? Gonna support the troops and cuss Bush?

darin

08-22-2008, 06:24 AM

Those brave and honorable service members have one job: to implement the foreign policy initiatives of the civilian military command authority.

I, for one, hope they do that job well. It is what they have been trained to do, it is what they are paid to do, it is what they enlisted to do.

My hopes in that regard do NOT limit my rights, as a citizen of this country, to question the foreign policy initiatives of the president.

For you to attempt to muzzle me on that point, or to cast my refusal to be muzzled as somehow indicative of my lack of support for our troops earns you a :fu: and my strongest condemnation.

MFM removed from thread - he needs to stop telling people to "Fuck off" or "Fuck you".