Mistake: McCain Would Back Georgia In Nato

[Kathianne]

It's now wrong. Georgia is kaput. We can't save her and the Soviets via Putin will not allow it in the future. Yes, USSR is back:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080812/pl_afp/usvotegeorgiarussiaconflictmccain

First mistake on foreign policy I've seen:


McCain would back Georgia NATO bid if elected

2 hours, 12 minutes ago

Republican White House contender John McCain said Tuesday he would support Georgia's bid to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) if he is elected president in November.

"I would move forward at the right time with the application for membership in NATO by Georgia," McCain told Fox News television.

"As you know, through the NATO membership, that if a member nation is attacked, it is viewed as an attack on all," said the Arizona senator, alluding to Russia's military aggression on Georgia.

"We don't have, I think, right now, the ability to intervene in any way except in a humanitarian, economic way, and do what we can to help the Georgians," he added.

McCain, 71, also reiterated his call for Russia to be kicked out of the Group of Eight most industrialized nations.

...

[Yurt]

is there some reason they had to mention mccain and obama's age?

[avatar4321]

I think the issue could be debated.

Some might think including Georgia in Nato would protect them from future Russian escapades. Russia might think twice about invading again. (assuming they ever leave now).

However, Russia might invade regardless creating an incident where all of Nato has to fight Russia.

Personally, I tend to side with McCain on this. Georgia has been a loyal ally. I think it's about time we show some loyalty.

[Hobbit]

Definitely. If we don't go to bat for Georgia, who sent us troops in Iraq, then we lose credibility as a faithful ally.

[Mr. P]

I think the issue could be debated.

Some might think including Georgia in Nato would protect them from future Russian escapades. Russia might think twice about invading again. (assuming they ever leave now).

However, Russia might invade regardless creating an incident where all of Nato has to fight Russia.

Personally, I tend to side with McCain on this. Georgia has been a loyal ally. I think it's about time we show some loyalty.


Definitely. If we don't go to bat for Georgia, who sent us troops in Iraq, then we lose credibility as a faithful ally.

I agree with both of you. In addition I see this as a test of western resolve on Russia's part, don't step up now they'll continue to try an retake those who broke away...IMO.

[manu1959]

I agree with both of you. In addition I see this as a test of western resolve on Russia's part, don't step up now they'll continue to try an retake those who broke away...IMO.

exactly......the russians see this as step one if the west sits and watches like they did when hitler took poland and the czechs then the next x ussr state will be taken.....the un can do nothing because the ussr has veto power.....putin is kgb and pulling the strings ....... the russian bear has emerged from hibernation and the west is ill prepared......seems they sucked the us into the middle east and are now taking advantage of that fact....

[avatar4321]

exactly......the russians see this as step one if the west sits and watches like they did when hitler took poland and the czechs then the next x ussr state will be taken.....the un can do nothing because the ussr has veto power.....putin is kgb and pulling the strings ....... the russian bear has emerged from hibernation and the west is ill prepared......seems they sucked the us into the middle east and are now taking advantage of that fact....

I am, of course, assuming there will still be a nation of Georgia left when this is all over to invite into NATO. It could be too late.

I do think this is a wake up call that it's time for the UN to end. How many times does it have to fail before we acknowledge it?

[manu1959]

I am, of course, assuming there will still be a nation of Georgia left when this is all over to invite into NATO. It could be too late.

I do think this is a wake up call that it's time for the UN to end. How many times does it have to fail before we acknowledge it?

if georgia agrees to be a puppet state of russia they will be allowed to exist....otherwise the they will be re-aquired....in either case they will not join nato.....

i hope everyone is prepared for cold war part deux.....

and i will add to this.....we continue to spend money and send troops around the world only to weaken ourselves domestically......if only we would invest in america the way we invest in the world we would be and economic force that no military could affect....

[avatar4321]

if georgia agrees to be a puppet state of russia they will be allowed to exist....otherwise the they will be re-aquired....in either case they will not join nato.....

i hope everyone is prepared for cold war part deux.....

and i will add to this.....we continue to spend money and send troops around the world only to weaken ourselves domestically......if only we would invest in america the way we invest in the world we would be and economic force that no military could affect....

Heck, if we just got the government out of the way we would be there.

[Hobbit]

Heck, if we just got the government out of the way we would be there.

If we cut out everything unconstitutional, we could double military spending and still pay down the national debt, and without so many damn regulations, business would boom. Why does everybody keep forgetting that capitalism won the first round of the Cold War?

[manu1959]

If we cut out everything unconstitutional, we could double military spending and still pay down the national debt, and without so many damn regulations, business would boom. Why does everybody keep forgetting that capitalism won the first round of the Cold War?

all one has to do is look to the power the swiss have.....

next up for the russians....the ukraine......

since the end of the cold war russia has consolidated its economic base while the us has over extended itself.......

if i ran my copany like this i would be on the street with a tin cup.....

[Kathianne]

If Georgia were in NATO, then Article 5 would come into play, 'an armed attack on one is an armed attack on all.' That would mean the US would have to respond, there are serious problems with our fellow members resolve, equipment, and militaries. Their equipment & ours are no longer compatible, we saw this to a degree with Kosovo, which certainly in the Russian mind justified what has happened this week.

Yes, Georgia is a good ally. Yes, I think we should do what we can to help this situation. Already though we see our fellow NATO members gobbling up the 'Georgia provoked' line from the Russians. The way NATO 'works' today, wouldn't cut it. Then there is a geography problem here, the only way in would be through Turkey, another NATO member. Even the US cannot win a battle with Russia with air power only.

There too, some problems. The only thing I've seen though that might seriously help Turkey decide to act would be reports that the PKK sabotaged some oil lines in Turkey less than 72 hours before the Russian invasion. It looks like PKK and Russia may be working together and we all know how Turkey feels about the PKK.

Here PKK is said to be a pawn:
http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=58513

Here is a description of what happened, prior to the invasion but after the blast:

http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/turkey_implications_blast_btc_pipeline


Turkey: Implications of a Blast on the BTC Pipeline
August 6, 2008 | 1842 GMT
Worker at Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline terminal in Turkey
Yoray Liberman/Getty Images
Workers at the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline terminal in Turkey
Summary

An explosion occurred late Aug. 5 on the Turkish section of the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline. There are a number of actors with the motive to carry out such an attack, if it was an attack.
Analysis
Related Special Topic Pages

* Central Asian Energy: Circumventing Russia
* Russian Energy and Foreign Policy
* Turkey’s Re-Emergence
* Iraq, Turkey and the Kurdish Position

An explosion occurred on the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) oil pipeline in eastern Turkey late Aug. 5. Turkish energy officials say it will take at least 24 hours for the fire engulfing the pipeline to extinguish. Until then, it remains unclear what the extent of the damage is and how long it would take to bring the pipeline back online.

The BTC pipeline pumps one million barrels per day (bpd) of Caspian crude to the Turkish port of Ceyhan on the Mediterranean Sea for export to the Western market. Despite the blast, exports are reportedly continuing from the Ceyhan port terminal, where storage facilities can hold 7.5 million barrels of oil (enough to fill seven large tankers). BP and its partners have also reassured the public that crude production is continuing at Azerbaijan’s offshore fields, for stockpiling until the pipeline is repaired....

[Kathianne]

24 hours or so later, I was probably wrong and McCain right.

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NGI1MWQ1ZTlkY2JhNTBlZTIyMmMwYTU2NGRhODdhNzg=


Georgia [Rich Lowry]

A friend e-mails:


Rich, I have advocated not pushing NATO membership for Ukraine or Georgia against Russian objections, but if Russia detaches the two breakaway provinces from Georgia, I think fast induction into NATO should be the centerpiece of our response. In the short term, Rice should include a visit to Berlin in her travel; that is where the obstacle to NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia resides; she should convince them that Russian alteration of international borders through violence must have strategic consequences for Russia. And I don't mean expulsion from the G8 or boycotting the Olympics. I mean something more like ... losing Sevastopol.

The Russian Black Sea fleet is based at Sevastopol (as it has been for eons) under a 20-year lease that expires on 2017. The Ukrainian government has made it clear that Russia can forget about renewing the lease. Sevastopol is on the Crimea peninsula, which is majority ethnically Russian (unlike Abkhazia or South Ossetia, which are not actually Russian) and many leading Russians have said they will never give it back. Fast-tracking NATO membership for Ukraine and stationing significant NATO forces there, and making clear that the defense of Ukraine's territorial integrity is their role, will guarantee that the Crimea stays Ukrainian and that Sevastopol passes from Russian hands within 10 years. There may not be a suitable alternative deep-water port on the Black Sea large enough to base Russia's Black Sea fleet. Russia's ability to dominate the Black Sea and project force into the Eastern Mediterranean could be turned back to the 18th century.

We are not going to go to war over the secession of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. In our rash recognition of Kosovo, we embraced the principle that justice and self-determination can trump the territorial integrity of sovereign states; in so doing we killed the Helsinki Accords (under which the Soviet empire in Europe was liquidated without any revision of borders) and can no longer stand on them. When the Russians now say "justice" and "self-determination" they are slapping us with our own text.

But there is another dimension to this — the balance of power. Russia knows that its invasion of a democratic U.S. ally and forcible alteration of its borders is a heavy strategic blow to the United States: it makes a mockery of the value of an alliance with us. Russia must be made to see that its action will be answered by an even more grievous strategic blow. The loss of Sevastopol — Russia's equivalent of Norfolk — is the perfect punishment. And what a great new base it would make for the U.S. Sixth Fleet.

Ukraine, Georgia — welcome to NATO.

08/14 04:45 PM