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Yurt
03-11-2007, 05:33 PM
Granting pardons can cause leaders grief


WASHINGTON - Richard Nixon. Mark Felt. Caspar Weinberger. Marc Rich. Is President Bush willing to risk — on behalf of ex-White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby — the kind of political grief that pardons for those four men brought the presidents who granted them?



Watergate scandal. Felt was the FBI man convicted of ordering illegal break-ins. Weinberger was the defense secretary charged in the Iran-Contra scandal. Rich was a fugitive financier.

All received presidential pardons processed outside normal channels.

As in those cases, Bush would have to bypass the regular clemency process to pardon Libby for the four felonies he was convicted of on Tuesday.

Such pardons historically have gotten presidents into political trouble.

A number of conservative politicians, bloggers and commentators, including National Review and Wall Street Journal editorial writers, want Libby pardoned — preferably now. Top Democrats have demanded that Bush pledge not to pardon Vice President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff.

William Jeffress, one of Libby's lawyers, said, "I believed a pardon for Scooter was appropriate last summer" when it came out that a State Department official, not Libby, was the initial source for a newspaper column disclosing the classified CIA job of Valerie Plame, wife of Iraq war critic Joseph Wilson.

Bush's spokesman Tony Snow has tried to dampen speculation. Snow said Bush is "careful" about pardons and takes the process very seriously. "He wants to make sure that anybody who receives one — that it's warranted," Snow said.

The Constitution grants the president absolute power to grant pardons, without approval by Congress or second-guessing by the courts.

The only check on abuse is the risk of "the damnation of his fame to all future ages," as James Iredell, one of the original Supreme Court justices, once put it. Some have run that risk.

_President Ford pardoned Nixon for Watergate before Nixon had even been charged. The resulting rage is thought by many political observers to have cost Ford his bid to be elected president in 1976.

_President Reagan pardoned Felt and another FBI executive in 1981 while they were appealing convictions for ordering secret and illegal searches of the homes of relatives and friends of violent opponents of the Vietnam War. The New York Times called Reagan's clemency "a gratuitous revision of the record." Prosecutor John W. Nields Jr., who was not consulted, complained Reagan surely did not know what the trial brought out about Felt — who years later was unmasked as the mysterious "Deep Throat" source that helped expose Watergate.

_On Christmas eve in 1992, just before he left office, the first President Bush pardoned Weinberger and a CIA official as they awaited trial on Iran-Contra charges, as well as four other administration officials who had pleaded or been found guilty in the scandal. Prosecutor Lawrence Walsh complained "the Iran-Contra cover-up ... has now been completed," thus blocking him from fully examining Bush's own role.

_On his last day in office in 2001, President Clinton pardoned 140 people. One was Rich, who had lived abroad for 17 years to avoid trial on charges of evading $48 million in taxes. Congress held hearings on the Rich pardon. A federal investigation looked into whether the pardon was a reward for contributions by Rich's ex-wife to Clinton's presidential library and his wife's Senate campaign; no charges were brought.

None of these pardons went through the vetting process set up at the Justice Department by President McKinley in 1898.

Department rules require that pardon-seekers wait five years after conviction or release from prison, whichever is later, before applying. Bush has less than two years left in office, but presidents are not bound by department regulations.

The waiting period is designed to allow petitioners "to demonstrate they can live as productive, law-abiding citizens," said Margaret C. Love, the department's pardon attorney during 1990-1997, under the elder Bush and Clinton's first term.

On occasion, the waiting period has been waived by the pardon attorney or at the president's request, Love said. One example was a teacher involved in steroid distribution who the prosecutor said helped the government case and whose school district needed a pardon to continue employing him.

The pardon attorney's career staff verifies claims of rehabilitation and checks with the prosecutor, judge and victim. Complete and consistent evaluations help produce department recommendations that may shield a president from criticism.

But since Attorney General Griffin Bell delegated the supervision to subordinates in 1977, Love said, the process has been "dominated by federal prosecutors, who tended to regard pardon as an interference with their law enforcement responsibilities."

Career prosecutors take a grave view of crimes against the system of justice, like Libby's perjury and obstruction of justice convictions. Although appointed by Bush as a U.S. attorney, Patrick Fitzgerald is a career prosecutor and voiced that viewpoint after winning the Libby convictions.

"Truth is what drives our judicial system. If people don't tell the truth, the system cannot work. Having a high-level official lie under oath is just something that can never be accepted."

Many advocates of a pardon for Libby say he should never have been charged at all. He maintains his innocence while defense lawyers work on an appeal.

But a Justice Department manual says, "A petitioner should be genuinely desirous of forgiveness rather than vindication. ... A petitioner's attempt to minimize or rationalize culpability does not advance the case for pardon."

Finally, Bush just does not grant many pardons. In his first year as Texas governor, he was burned. A county constable he pardoned for a marijuana conviction was caught months later stealing cocaine.

"I said, `Whoa!' because it was a pretty rough story," Bush told a reporter. He went on to set a 50-year record low for pardons in Texas, granting only 19, including six convicts who proved their innocence.

As president, he's granted just 113 in just over six years — the stingiest record among the 11 presidents since the end of World War II.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070311/ap_on_go_pr_wh/political_pardons

Yurt
03-11-2007, 05:36 PM
What strikes me is that these pardons have seemingly only hurt Ford. There is no proof that the pardon is what sunk his reelection, but odds are it helped. All the others, for instance, Reagan in 1981, did not hurt his presidency at all. The man was reelected and brought down the wall. Clinton also was reelected.

I think Bush should pardon Libby. He is a sacrificial goat for the liberal media. And guess what, President Bush could care less what people think of him for pardoning Libby. In my opinion, he is going to quietly leave public office and not give it another thought. He does what he thinks is right, regardless of what others think.

I say pardon him.

jimnyc
03-11-2007, 05:46 PM
I think Libby should be pardoned, and a special prosecutor appointed to look into the actions of Armitage, who from what I gather was the one who sprung the leak.

LiberalNation
03-11-2007, 05:46 PM
He could pardon him if he really wanted to. Not like he's going to be running again or anything.

It might hurt his image though. Libby did clearly lie under oath before a court of law.

Yurt
03-11-2007, 05:50 PM
He could pardon him if he really wanted to. Not like he's going to be running again or anything.

It might hurt his image though. Libby did clearly lie under oath before a court of law.

I would not say clearly. Surely not as clearly as:

"I never had sex with that woman."

Not a court of law, but the whole nation.

LiberalNation
03-11-2007, 05:51 PM
True Clinton lied as well. Clinton did it doesn't make it right.

Yurt
03-11-2007, 05:57 PM
True Clinton lied as well. Clinton did it doesn't make it right.

Do you support him? When he lied, did you still support him? Honestly.

If the evidence is so "clear" why did it take the jury so long?

LiberalNation
03-11-2007, 06:02 PM
Clinton, wasn't watching news when h lied. Don't much care for him myself.

I haven't followed muh of the trial so I don't know why the jury took so long. But the few stories I read after he was found guilty make it looked pretty clear he lied/said things tha turned out to be false.

CSM
03-11-2007, 06:12 PM
...But the few stories I read after he was found guilty make it looked pretty clear he lied/said things tha turned out to be false.

Maybe he was just trying to offend people. I hear that there are some folks who do that.

Yurt
03-11-2007, 06:17 PM
Clinton, wasn't watching news when h lied. Don't much care for him myself.

I haven't followed muh of the trial so I don't know why the jury took so long. But the few stories I read after he was found guilty make it looked pretty clear he lied/said things tha turned out to be false.


Were those stories just getting you to buy their wares? Just like you said here:


Maybe bias or maybe they just did it because it would make a good story which would sell. Kinda sad and shocking, kids seperated from their families, left alone.


Yet you readily swallow a [story] when it suits your views.

Interesting. I honestly expected more from you.

gabosaurus
03-11-2007, 06:18 PM
Bush can't cause himself any more grief. It is those who attempt to come after him that would bear the consequences.
Who will be around to pardon Bush?

Yurt
03-11-2007, 06:20 PM
Bush can't cause himself any more grief. It is those who attempt to come after him that would bear the consequences.
Who will be around to pardon Bush?

hahahahhaahahahaahahahahaha

Then who cares if he pardons libby, for in your eyes, he can do no worse. Thanks for proving part of my point.

Geniussaurus......

LiberalNation
03-11-2007, 06:29 PM
Maybe he was just trying to offend people. I hear that there are some folks who do that.

Well if that's the case he can go to jail for it, happy.

Yurt
03-11-2007, 06:30 PM
Well if that's the case he can go to jail for it, happy.

So you want to go to jail?

LiberalNation
03-11-2007, 06:31 PM
Yet you readily swallow a [story] when it suits your views.

Interesting. I honestly expected more from you.
The story may have it's flare but it doesn't change the Fact that he was found guilty and because of that is most likely guilty or the jury would have ruled otherwise. Why make a consipiracy out of it.

LiberalNation
03-11-2007, 06:32 PM
So you want to go to jail?
No, if I did I would lie under oath or commit other such crimes.

Yurt
03-11-2007, 06:42 PM
The story may have it's flare but it doesn't change the Fact that he was found guilty and because of that is most likely guilty or the jury would have ruled otherwise. Why make a consipiracy out of it.

So now it is "flare" when it suits your ideology. Do you believe that innocent people have been found guilty? By a jury? Otherwise, who cares about all these innocent people being let free. Let us refresh your memory:



including six convicts who proved their innocence


Ah, according to your logic, these folks should not have been pardoned by, then Governor, now President Bush, because "the jury would have ruled otherwise."

LiberalNation
03-11-2007, 06:45 PM
He has to prove his innocence first. He will get appeals and have that opportunity. Sorry my hearts not breaking for Libby here and if he doesn’t and Bush wishes it’s his right to pardon him. That doesn’t mean I’m gona go around touting the mans innocence right now when it has yet to be proven to me and has in fact as far as we know been proven otherwise.

Yurt
03-11-2007, 06:48 PM
He has to prove his innocence first. He will get appeals and have that opportunity. Sorry my hearts not breaking for Libby here and if he doesn’t and Bush wishes it’s his right to pardon him. That doesn’t mean I’m gona go around touting the mans innocence right now when it has yet to be proven to me and has in fact as far as we know been proven otherwise.

No one asked you tout it, but it would be nice if you changed your avi to a "support Libby" avi.

It is clear that you have nothing to substantiate your belief that he is guilty. You completely sidestepped the part about those convicted by a JURY and then later found guilty. And have stepped away from your "sources" as they are but stories. That was your sole premise on his guilt. Now it seems you are coming down to, well, a "feeling" that he is guilty.

Honestly, aren't you being biased?

gabosaurus
03-11-2007, 06:51 PM
Libby was tried for his crimes and found guilty. Why should he be more worthy of a pardon that the average drug runner or pedophile? Because he is a friend of the Bushies?

LiberalNation
03-11-2007, 06:51 PM
I haven't followed the story close enough to form a set in stone opinion on whether or not he is guilty or innocent. I know what I have read and what i think now. Will see how it turn out. This stories pretty boring tho.

But If you'll wear a support any convicted criminal of my choosing, I'll wear a support libby avi. Seeing as you don't think the courts are reliable enough to judge innocence or guilt.

Yurt
03-11-2007, 07:00 PM
Libby was tried for his crimes and found guilty. Why should he be more worthy of a pardon that the average drug runner or pedophile? Because he is a friend of the Bushies?

So everyone found guilty by a jury is guilty?

Yurt
03-11-2007, 07:02 PM
I haven't followed the story close enough to form a set in stone opinion on whether or not he is guilty or innocent. I know what I have read and what i think now. Will see how it turn out. This stories pretty boring tho.

But If you'll wear a support any convicted criminal of my choosing, I'll wear a support libby avi. Seeing as you don't think the courts are reliable enough to judge innocence or guilt.

A very different tone that your first post on this thread. Good. You are not as bias as you seem.

Btw, I have no problem putting a convicted "innocent" [convict] in my avi. President Bush pardoned six while Governor......

Gaffer
03-11-2007, 07:16 PM
Libby was tried for his crimes and found guilty. Why should he be more worthy of a pardon that the average drug runner or pedophile? Because he is a friend of the Bushies?

Clinton lied and was convicted. I think Libby should get the same punishment as he did.

Yurt
03-11-2007, 07:17 PM
Clinton lied and was convicted. I think Libby should get the same punishment as he did.

Now that is not fair and balanced....


:clap: