Boyd Vs Alinsky: Let The Best Strategy Win

[Kathianne]

Certainly interesting:

http://www.classicalvalues.com/archives/2008/08/obama_be.html

Alinsky's Rules For Radicals:


So let us have a look at Alinsky's handbook Rules For Radicals. Just so we can see the train coming and get off the tracks. Here is a list of the rules.


RULE 1:"Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have." Power is derived from 2 main sources - money and people. "Have-Nots" must build power from flesh and blood. (These are two things of which there is a plentiful supply. Government and corporations always have a difficult time appealing to people, and usually do so almost exclusively with economic arguments.)

That would explain a lot of the current campaign's dynamics. Obama is running on the idea that a lot of people fear being called racists. If that fear is not there then his campaign has no power. McCain has neutered that whole line of attack. It may play well among the latte liberals (Tom Wolfe called them the radical chic) but it will not play well against the original anti-slavery party (Abe Lincoln was a Republican).
... Oh plenty of links at the above site.

Now Boyd:


...

Well he has gone after McCain in particular AND the Republicans in general. McCain blunted the attack, and counter attacked. Republicans are not buying it at all.

McCain, the fighter pilot, has gotten inside Obama's OODA loop. Something the Navy teaches fighter pilots to do.


The OODA Loop, often called Boyd's Cycle, is a creation of Col. John Boyd, USAF (Ret.). Col. Boyd was a student of tactical operations and observed a similarity in many battles and campaigns. He noted that in many of the engagements, one side presented the other with a series of unexpected and threatening situations with which they had not been able to keep pace. The slower side was eventually defeated. What Col. Boyd observed was the fact that conflicts are time competitive.

Elections are nothing if they are not time competitive. Evidently the "freezing of the opponent" that Alinsky recommends has not worked on McCain. He was not frozen. Once that happened McCain was operating inside Obama's decision loop.

Evidently Boyd is beating Alinsky. Or to put it another way. The fighter pilot is beating the community organizer. As a Navy man myself, I'm not surprised.

[mundame]

Obama is running on the idea that a lot of people fear being called racists. If that fear is not there then his campaign has no power.


Well said. I think that's true. There are too many serious problems with blacks for people to vote his way unless they are really brainwashed.

[Kathianne]

Hmmm, Mundame, I think you may have missed the point. Many have no problem voting for a black, just a problem with Obama. Problem is, as is often charged throughout the political section, one 'votes' for him or they hate blacks. Around here most will stand up to that charge, in reality many though are intimidated by that very charge.

If Obama had fewer ties with machine politics and evidenced better choices in friends and associates, coupled with experience beyond 'being a state rep who often voted present' and a 'community activist', whose accomplishments when scrutinized seem more than modest, he would probably win overwhelmingly. I still wouldn't bet against him and that says a lot about how many outside the black community would like to 'undo' the perception that a black can't win.

[diuretic]

Just a question Kathianne. Alinsky did much, if not all of his work, in Chicago, organising the poorer areas (is it the South Side??). I have read somewhere that Obama has allegedly been schooled in Alinsky's methods of social organising.

Alinsky's principles (I have read Rules for Radicals, I made the mistake of lending it out once....never came back) may not work well for someone like Obama who is seeking office.

I have used Alinsky's principles in industrial (labor) relations campaigns for our union and they worked for me (and us) in the context of the apparently powerless (I stress that, won't go into details but it was useful to portray an image of powerlessness) union versus the powerful employer (new state government). We won the narrative as they say nowadays.

Anyway, an interesting article. I was only introduced to the OODA Loop about three months ago (wait for it ...."I was out of the OODA Loop for years" :laugh2:)
so that's an interesting comparison.

ps, Alinsky is my avatar.

[Kathianne]

Just a question Kathianne. Alinsky did much, if not all of his work, in Chicago, organising the poorer areas (is it the South Side??). I have read somewhere that Obama has allegedly been schooled in Alinsky's methods of social organising.

Alinsky's principles (I have read Rules for Radicals, I made the mistake of lending it out once....never came back) may not work well for someone like Obama who is seeking office.

I have used Alinsky's principles in industrial (labor) relations campaigns for our union and they worked for me (and us) in the context of the apparently powerless (I stress that, won't go into details but it was useful to portray an image of powerlessness) union versus the powerful employer (new state government). We won the narrative as they say nowadays.

Anyway, an interesting article. I was only introduced to the OODA Loop about three months ago (wait for it ...."I was out of the OODA Loop for years" :laugh2:)
so that's an interesting comparison.

ps, Alinsky is my avatar.
A few months ago with had this conversation, but seems not on this board. Working on my sociology degree in the 70's at U of C, Alinsky was not just assigned reading, but had a whole class devoted to his principles. Many a guest lecturer was brought in that had been 'schooled' by Alinsky.

He had some very good tactics for those wishing to change the status quo, no doubt on that. However, it became commonplace to attack institutions that didn't deserve such, ala Jesse Jackson, in fact often was just a means of extortion. There is more than a bit of 'big lie' theory involved with the Rules.

BTW, I knew that was Alinsky. ;)

[diuretic]

A few months ago with had this conversation, but seems not on this board. Working on my sociology degree in the 70's at U of C, Alinsky was not just assigned reading, but had a whole class devoted to his principles. Many a guest lecturer was brought in that had been 'schooled' by Alinsky.

He had some very good tactics for those wishing to change the status quo, no doubt on that. However, it became commonplace to attack institutions that didn't deserve such, ala Jesse Jackson, in fact often was just a means of extortion. There is more than a bit of 'big lie' theory involved with the Rules.

BTW, I knew that was Alinsky. ;)

The conversation could have been here - my memory isn't what it wa....oh look, there's a bright silver button...excuse me I'm going to inspect it....

Back.

I was introduced to Alinsky by a friend in Austin, Tx. (Throw something at me if you've already read this). He had been to the Harvard international trade union training programme and Alinsky featured strongly in the tactical and philosophical areas of the programme. On looking back I can see where Alinsky fitted in with others who shared (but I think independently developed) his strategies.

Sadly, yes, the tactics can be mis-used or mis-applied (your reference to J. Jackson).

I think the Rules are about - stand by - a greater good though. My reading of the book was that Alinsky wasn't frightened to exaggerate, indeed exaggeration was iHarvard mportant to him. Subtlety doesn't cut it in the general public discourse.

Just one point, the quote about privilege never giving up anything without a struggle keeps coming into head but since my book decided to leave home permanently I can't think who said it. I have the name "Douglas" in my mind but I think that's wrong.

The avatar - the El in the background - he ws a good Chicagoan eh? :)

[midcan5]

"If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what a people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. Men may not get all they pay for in this world; but they must pay for all they get. If we ever get free from all the oppressions and wrongs heaped upon us, we must pay for their removal. We must do this by labor, by suffering, by sacrifice, and, if needs be, by our lives, and the lives of others." Frederick Douglass

[diuretic]

Much appreciate midcan, that is the one. Thank you.

[midcan5]

It is sort of tragic and ironic that a man who has the potential to be a great president is Black. Being black in America is not a good thing, first slaves, then hung, then kicked out of voting etc, then allowed some rights, then told they have too many rights. What a screwed up man man is. Only the American Indians have had it as tough and they lost all tradition and were pretty much destroyed.

The race card is another distraction, if Obama were white with a name like Robert Neutral he'd be a shoe in but those weird glasses that can't see past their own prejudices blind so many. Bush Jr, probably the most incompetent president we've had in modern times, should have been black, life would be so much nicer today for so many.

[diuretic]

Call me a pollyana - if Obama is elected then perhaps many of America's racialist demons will be put to the sword. It may not be easy but if, and I stress, if, he is elected then perhaps in his first term (assuming a second) that may happen.

I really hope so.

[Kathianne]

Call me a pollyana - if Obama is elected then perhaps many of America's racialist demons will be put to the sword. It may not be easy but if, and I stress, if, he is elected then perhaps in his first term (assuming a second) that may happen.

I really hope so.

;) Ok Pollyanna, I don't think there are many reasons to vote for Obama, yet he's probably going to get elected simply because he is black. That isn't going to help the race issue, in fact it seems to have awakened the issue with many that haven't been raised to be prejudiced. Even Obama in his reparations talk has alluded to the past 40 odd years, racism declined fast and suddenly. (Of course that doesn't mean extinction of the problem, as any light perusal through messageboards will confirm.)

Above Midcam says that if Barack were white he'd be a shoe in, I think that is incomprehensible. Even Jimmy Carter had some executive experience, both as governor and in the military. George Bush too had been a successful governor and ran his own business. Contrary to the gospel of the left, over and over again we are treated to his 'misstatements', his narcissism, his condescension, and his inexperience. Lately he's shown a lack of temperament needed for a president, which is more than likely a result of his inexperience with the press and the process of government.