Arctic Ice Growing?

[Hobbit]

At least near Norway. A far cry from the claims that there will be a period with no arctic ice this summer, several ships have gotten trapped in the ice around Norway in places that are normally completely free of ice this time of year.

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/piersakerman/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/icy_reality_cools_the_climate_cultists/

[SpidermanTUba]

The Arctic ice is still smaller than normal overall.

http://www.nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

[darin]

We haven't been tracking Ice long enough to know what 'normal' looks like.

[SpidermanTUba]

We've tracked it long enough to see that its getting smaller.

[darin]

We've tracked it long enough to see that its getting smaller.

(shrug). And it's also growing. The sample, though, is too small to know what it 'shoud' be at. Know what I mean? The earth is tens of thousdands of years old. We've been measuring and datalogging climate changes for what? 100 years?

[SpidermanTUba]

(shrug). And it's also growing. The sample, though, is too small to know what it 'shoud' be at. Know what I mean? The earth is tens of thousdands of years old. We've been measuring and datalogging climate changes for what? 100 years?



Overall, its shrinking, not growing. See link above.

The sample is big enough to tell that it is getting smaller just about every year. What more evidence of Arctic ice melting you want, I don't know. You don't need to watch an ice cube for a million years to be able to tell its melting.

[darin]

You're missing the point.

Who cares? that's the point. Folk need to apply context to what's happening to the GROWING ice fields in some parts, shrinking in others. I'm saying we don't have large enough of a sample to make this anything more than a curiosity.

[SpidermanTUba]

You're missing the point.

Who cares? that's the point.


its obviously a concern of Hobbit and myself. If it doesn't concern you, then, by all means, butt out of the conversation.


Folk need to apply context to what's happening to the GROWING ice fields in some parts, shrinking in others.

OK .How does that change the fact its still shrinking overall?



I'm saying we don't have large enough of a sample to make this anything more than a curiosity.

What does that even mean? What's the scientific definition of "curiosity" ? The ice is melting. We can see it happening every year in the reduced ice levels. If you don't find that curious, then, by all means, run along. But its still a fact.


And I know you might find this one hard to grasp - but some scientist believe that melting ice might actually be a sign of warmer temperatures. I know its a stretch of the imagination for you, and you'd prefer a much larger sample size, but we're almost certain that ice melts as a result of heat.

[darin]

its obviously a concern of Hobbit and myself. If it doesn't concern you, then, by all means, butt out of the conversation.



The story is a concern. Stressing out or legislating policy based on out-of-context ice matters is foolish.


OK .How does that change the fact its still shrinking overall?


It's growing in places, too.



What does that even mean? What's the scientific definition of "curiosity" ? The ice is melting. We can see it happening every year in the reduced ice levels. If you don't find that curious, then, by all means, run along. But its still a fact.


It's curious. Doesn't mean it's bad. It's also Growing in some places, too...remember?



And I know you might find this one hard to grasp - but some scientist believe that melting ice might actually be a sign of warmer temperatures. I know its a stretch of the imagination for you, and you'd prefer a much larger sample size, but we're almost certain that ice melts as a result of heat.

Why the ad hominem?

[avatar4321]

its all global warmings fault!

[Nukeman]

Overall, its shrinking, not growing. See link above.

The sample is big enough to tell that it is getting smaller just about every year. What more evidence of Arctic ice melting you want, I don't know. You don't need to watch an ice cube for a million years to be able to tell its melting.
Yes its been shrinking since the last mini ice age. So tell me oh enlightened one what is the NORMAL amount of ice and what is the NORMAL temperature supposed to be. We have yet to determine what that is. Just because WE (humans) find something comfortable doesn't mean that is what NORMAL is.... Or is that too much for you to understand.....:poke:

[SpidermanTUba]

It's growing in places, too.


OK. But how does that or anything mentioned so far change the fact that overall its shrinking?




It's curious. Doesn't mean it's bad. It's also Growing in some places, too...remember?


OK. But how does that or anything mentioned so far change the fact that overall its shrinking?

[SpidermanTUba]

Yes its been shrinking since the last mini ice age. So tell me oh enlightened one what is the NORMAL amount of ice and what is the NORMAL temperature supposed to be. We have yet to determine what that is. Just because WE (humans) find something comfortable doesn't mean that is what NORMAL is.... Or is that too much for you to understand.....:poke:

???

OK. So we agree its melting. Why are you being an ass to someone you agree with? Is because you're an ass?

Its interesting that no one before the last mini ice age has any reports of opening up the northwest passage for shipping. Recorded naval history goes back much further than the last mini ice age, doesn't it?

[Sitarro]

???

OK. So we agree its melting. Why are you being an ass to someone you agree with? Is because you're an ass?

Its interesting that no one before the last mini ice age has any reports of opening up the northwest passage for shipping. Recorded naval history goes back much further than the last mini ice age, doesn't it?

Hey Spider,
Your glass is always half empty isn't it? By the way, when are you going to come pick up the New Orleans trash that are screwing up Houston?

This is good news, as far as the manmade Global Warming hoax goes, obviously ice is reforming rather than disintegrating(proving the shysters wrong again). When you put ice in a pot on the stove and turn up the heat, what happens? What's going on beneath the ice spider?

[SpidermanTUba]

Your glass is always half empty isn't it? By the way, when are you going to come pick up the New Orleans trash that are screwing up Houston?

The day you are no longer a bigot.




This is good news, as far as the manmade Global Warming hoax goes, obviously ice is reforming rather than disintegrating(proving the shysters wrong again).


Right, except that the link in the 2nd post on this thread shows that the ice is overall, melting. So you're wrong. But I know that facts don't interest you, so I'll leave you alone.

[theHawk]

The Arctic ice is still smaller than normal overall.

http://www.nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

And yet Anartic ice sheets are growing....

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/index.noshade.html

[theHawk]

Right, except that the link in the 2nd post on this thread shows that the ice is overall, melting. So you're wrong. But I know that facts don't interest you, so I'll leave you alone.

Your article completely ignored the south polar region. My guess would be because the facts show the ice there is growing and it wouldn't fit their message of fear.


Ice overall has been melting since the last ice age, as it always naturally does after each ice age. Are we supposed to be in a panic about it?

[Nukeman]

???

OK. So we agree its melting. Why are you being an ass to someone you agree with? Is because you're an ass?

Yet you IGNORE all of my questions.

WHAT IS A NORMAL AMOUNT OF ICE?

WHAT IS A NORMAL TEMPRATURE?

WHY DO WE DETERMINE WHAT SHOULD BE NORMAL???

You didn't address any of those in my post you just focused on "my being a ass". Way to ignore what YOU don't have an answer for.......:slap:






Its interesting that no one before the last mini ice age has any reports of opening up the northwest passage for shipping. Recorded naval history goes back much further than the last mini ice age, doesn't it

however they do recount the fact that Greenland, and Iceland both were AGRICULTURE based countries, and other 'warm" climate activities yet YOU and your ilk ignore this as well. The last "mini ice age" occured after a significant warming spell. It is what contributed to the dark ages. Prior to that the exploration was not that heavy.

Ohh how did our ancestors map the actual land mass of Antartica before sonar and satilite technology if it has ALWAYS been covered with ice??



http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_1.htm

In 1929, a group of historians found an amazing map drawn on a gazelle skin.
Research showed that it was a genuine document drawn in 1513 by Piri Reis, a famous admiral of the Turkish fleet in the sixteenth century.
His passion was cartography. His high rank within the Turkish navy allowed him to have a privileged access to the Imperial Library of Constantinople.
The Turkish admiral admits in a series of notes on the map that he compiled and copied the data from a large number of source maps, some of which dated back to the fourth century BC or earlier.

[SpidermanTUba]

And yet Anartic ice sheets are growing....

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/index.noshade.html


I don't see it. From the graphs presented in your link, it would appear there is no trend either way for Antarctic ice.

[SpidermanTUba]

Your article completely ignored the south polar region. My guess would be because the facts show the ice there is growing and it wouldn't fit their message of fear.


How surprising that a website called "Arctic Sea Ice News and Analysis" would ignore the Antarctic.






Ice overall has been melting since the last ice age,

That is not true for the Arctic, which I assume you are referring to since you claim the Antarctic is growing in size.

Data in the very same link you posted shows that from 1900-1950 Arctic sea ice levels, for a given season, were pretty much constant.

[SpidermanTUba]

Yet you IGNORE all of my questions.

WHAT IS A NORMAL AMOUNT OF ICE?

WHAT IS A NORMAL TEMPRATURE?

WHY DO WE DETERMINE WHAT SHOULD BE NORMAL???

You didn't address any of those in my post you just focused on "my being a ass".

Maybe you should stop being an ass and you'll get your questions answered.

But not by me, I'm not getting into an existential argument with you. The debate here is whether or not something is melting, not what the definition of "normal" is. Your questions are irrelevant.





however they do recount the fact that Greenland, and Iceland both were AGRICULTURE based countries, and other 'warm" climate activities yet YOU and your ilk ignore this as well. The last "mini ice age" occured after a significant warming spell. It is what contributed to the dark ages.

Who is my "ilk"? I'm not in any gangs, sorry. I'm not sure what your point is here. You seem to want to talk about agriculture and gang affiliations now.

.


Ohh how did our ancestors map the actual land mass of Antartica before sonar and satilite technology if it has ALWAYS been covered with ice?? http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_1.htm
.

Help from aliens? I dunno.

[theHawk]

How surprising that a website called "Arctic Sea Ice News and Analysis" would ignore the Antarctic.




That is not true for the Arctic, which I assume you are referring to since you claim the Antarctic is growing in size.

Data in the very same link you posted shows that from 1900-1950 Arctic sea ice levels, for a given season, were pretty much constant.

Wrong sir, according to NASA Antarctic levels are at their highest since they've been keeping track in 1979.



Excerpt: While the news focus has been on the lowest ice extent since satellite monitoring began in 1979 for the Arctic, the Southern Hemisphere (Antarctica) has quietly set a new record for most ice extent since 1979. This can be seen on this graphic from this University of Illinois site The Cryosphere Today, which updated snow and ice extent for both hemispheres daily. The Southern Hemispheric areal coverage is the highest in the satellite record, just beating out 1995, 2001, 2005 and 2006. Since 1979, the trend has been up for the total Antarctic ice extent. While the Antarctic Peninsula area has warmed in recent years and ice near it diminished during the Southern Hemisphere summer, the interior of Antarctica has been colder and ice elsewhere has been more extensive and longer lasting, which explains the increase in total extent. This dichotomy was shown in this World Climate Report blog posted recently with a similar tale told in this paper by Ohio State Researcher David Bromwich, who agreed "It's hard to see a global warming signal from the mainland of Antarctica right now". Indeed, according the NASA GISS data, the South Pole winter (June/July/August) has cooled about 1 degree F since 1957 and the coldest year was 2004. This winter has been an especially harsh one in the Southern Hemisphere with cold and snow records set in Australia, South America and Africa. We will have recap on this hard winter shortly.
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming091307m.htm

[eighballsidepocket]

The day you are no longer a bigot.



Right, except that the link in the 2nd post on this thread shows that the ice is overall, melting. So you're wrong. But I know that facts don't interest you, so I'll leave you alone.

Might check what the massive Hubbard Glacier is up to in Southwestern Alaska. It is advancing! Cruise ships regularly visit this Glacier that meets the Pacific ocean to admire it's beauty and majesty.

I seems to defy the dooms'sayers, and is advancing, and it is a one very big glacier.

As far as the mini-ice age goes, that is evidence that the earth's mean temperature is cyclical. Back in the 1700's the Thames River regularly froze over, but has't been since the mid to late 1700's. We are not in a manmade warming trend, but a natural meterological cycle that repeats itself regularly for thousands of years.

It has been politicized by Al Gore who's meterological credentials are nil, and received the prestiges Nobel Prize as though he were the "Einstein" of Meterology.

I has been shown that not only sun spot activity, but wide spread world volcanic activity affects the world mean temperature, and can precipitate cooling trends that lead to advancing glaciers, and or ice sheets.

Volcanic activity that is pronounced, spews so much material in to the upper atmosphere in the forms of numerous chemicals, and will filter-out the sun rays hitting the earth's surface. The earth's surface cools, weather patterns can abruptly change.

The mini-ice age started back in the 1400's I believe and caused widespread famine, plague, and population displacement in Europe, especially.

Before the mini-ice age, England's weather was much warmer than it is even now. Why? Because of wide spread industrial pollutants and vehicular car exhausts? Hardly.

Those nasty hated Floro-carbines that were destroying our ozone layer, caused the banning of R-12 Freon and all cars and AC or refrigeration systems now are sold or manufactured using R134A refrigerant.

Little know to Al Gore's sheeple, or they just don't want to know, is that one volcanic eruption of major size spews more floro-carbons into the atmosphere than all the leaking old-style R-12 Freon in the whole world combined in one year!! So now we all must use the very unefficient R-134A refrigerant in our Car A.C.'s.

Also notice that the R134A does not cool as effectively and often when starts their A.C. they must get up to freeway speed to finally get their A.C. to effectively start cooling the vehicle. This was never the case with R-12 Freon.

There is so much "Chicken Little" crying the sky is falling, the sky is falling, with these global warming advocates, and so much stupid or ignorant science to back it up.

Global warming is a politicized movement, sadly.

For every scientist that says we are causing the warming cycle there are myriads of other competent scientists that will not commit to that theory, but are ignored in most mainstream media sources.

Its not unlike the sad and sadistic desire by many who really covertly hope our economy will go into recession or fail, and gas prices will go to $10.00/gallon, or all the glaciers will melt and Los Angeles will be under water just because they hate Republicans, or GWB and want their guy or gal in office. 99% will deny this covert desire, but they know deep in their hearts they'd love to see this administration fail miserably, at the expense of suffering of their own fellow citizens.

[Psychoblues]

The scientists, the credible ones, predicted exactly where the ice would diminish and areas where it would actually increase. Their batting average looks pretty strong to me!!!!!!!!!

Speaking of ice, can I get an Ice Cold Busch?: :salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

[SpidermanTUba]

That is not true for the Arctic, which I assume you are referring to since you claim the Antarctic is growing in size.

Data in the very same link you posted shows that from 1900-1950 Arctic sea ice levels, for a given season, were pretty much constant.


To which the Hawk replies:


Wrong sir, according to NASA Antarctic levels are at their highest since they've been keeping track in 1979.


http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming091307m.htm

??? How the heck does Antarctic ice levels being their highest in 2007 since 1979 mean that Arctic ice levels weren't fairly constant from 1900-1950 ???

I claim that Arctic ice levels were about constant from 1900-1950 and provide evidence to that effect, and you claim I'm wrong because Antarctic levels were their highest in 2007 since 1979?
WTF? 'DAT DON'T MAKE SENSE!


.
Might check what the massive Hubbard Glacier is up to in Southwestern Alaska. It is advancing!

OK. How does that change the fact that the northern ice pack is overall melting?

[trobinett]

To which the Hawk replies:



??? How the heck does Antarctic ice levels being their highest in 2007 since 1979 mean that Arctic ice levels weren't fairly constant from 1900-1950 ???

I claim that Arctic ice levels were about constant from 1900-1950 and provide evidence to that effect, and you claim I'm wrong because Antarctic levels were their highest in 2007 since 1979?
WTF? 'DAT DON'T MAKE SENSE!



OK. How does that change the fact that the northern ice pack is overall melting?

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, when have facts influenced You spider man?

How are your bud's In NO?

Maybe THEIR being impacted by global meltdown, and what are YOU doing about THAT?

Get a life, and then, try LIVING IT.............:fu:

[SpidermanTUba]

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, when have facts influenced You spider man?

How are your bud's In NO?

Maybe THEIR being impacted by global meltdown, and what are YOU doing about THAT?

Get a life, and then, try LIVING IT.............:fu:

That's kind of an odd place to put an all caps possessive pronoun, don't you think?


I'm not sure exactly why you're butting in here. (Note I said you're, not YOUR) Do you have anything of value to offer to this conversation other than bad grammar and a shitty attitude?

[Sitarro]

I dunno.

The most intelligent thing ever written by the spiderman.:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

[Yurt]

Maybe you should stop being an ass and you'll get your questions answered.

But not by me, I'm not getting into an existential argument with you. The debate here is whether or not something is melting, not what the definition of "normal" is. Your questions are irrelevant.


Who is my "ilk"? I'm not in any gangs, sorry. I'm not sure what your point is here. You seem to want to talk about agriculture and gang affiliations now.


Help from aliens? I dunno.

after the last major ice age, did something melt or is ice at the same level?

[Psychoblues]

dupe post, sorry 'bout that?!?!?!?!?!?!??!???!??!

[Psychoblues]

I think the conversation should be as to whether mankind is now influencing the worldwide weather patterns and average ambient temperature, don't you think, yuk?



after the last major ice age, did something melt or is ice at the same level?

Wuts up, dude, haven't seen you in a day or 2?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Hit It, David, North, To Alaska, Go North The Rush Is On: :salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

[Nukeman]

Maybe you should stop being an ass and you'll get your questions answered.

But not by me, I'm not getting into an existential argument with you. The debate here is whether or not something is melting, not what the definition of "normal" is. Your questions are irrelevant..

Why exactly is my questioning YOU on the NORMAL amount of ice irrelevant? If you or the doom sayers can not even determine what NORMAL is than you can not say something is abnormal now can you? Yes some ice may be melting but is it ABNORMAL? You have yet to define what the normal amount of ice should be....

This is in no way existential it deals in cold hard facts. To say something is not normal YOU must first determine what NORMAL is.





Who is my "ilk"? I'm not in any gangs, sorry. I'm not sure what your point is here. You seem to want to talk about agriculture and gang affiliations now.Your really not this stupid are you or are you just being obtuse. Your "ilk" consists of the doom sayers that think humans are the end all of everything. as for my statements about agriculture taking place in a country that at this time is "covered in ice" means that in the not to distant past IT WASN'T COVERED IN ICE so once again what is the normal amount of ice in the arctic????
.



Help from aliens? I dunno

Or better yet. NO FREAKING ICE so in the geological blink of an eye we have the arctic and the antarctic without ice. Yet YOU and others seem to think that because right now we are in a melting trend it must somehow be the end of times and that humans are to blame....

[eighballsidepocket]

It isn't that humanity is at blame for Global Warming.......It's that America is the culprit, until "they" (And we know who "they" is) takes back the White House, and increases their majorities in both Houses of Congress.

If, B.O. gets elected, you just watch how this Global Warming "Thingy" becomes a back section issue in the media.

This, "We are Bad" and "They/world are the victims of us" thing is all they've campaigned on since the 60's.

This is akin to Marxian philosophy that precipitated the 1917 revolution in Russia, and Cambodia's Pol Pot, takeover, etc...

GOP are wealthy elitists, while the other party is the party of the alleged, "people". Wealth must be redistributed, as it is not fair for some through entreprenarial spirit to have more. Capitalism is evil, socialism is covertly masked as being "Fair" or leveling the playing field.

The Teacher's union will get fatter and sassier as the biggest lobbying monolith, then next the environmental lobbies of the Sierra Club, Earth First, Green Peace and all their sub organizations that are not unlike root systems connected to an invasive species.

All the past Roosevelt and even JFK Democrats who are of WW2 vintage and a little after are all passing away in advanced age, as their Party has been morphing since the 60's into an entity that they could not identify with nor embrace.

This country is in the throws of a "Me, Myself" Voltairian change, that is so sad, and so far from the Fore-Father's dream that was spawned in the 18th century.

[Nukeman]

Here is some new information for you "Spiderman" I hope you can find the time to read. Maybe you can even realize that WE don't have all the answers at this time especially on a topic that has only been studied for a few decades!!!!!!:poke:


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article4449527.ece



This is a treasure trove,” said Dr Sam Willis, a maritime historian and author who is affiliated with Exeter University’s Centre for Maritime Historical Studies.

“Ships’ officers recorded air pressure, wind strength, air and sea temperature and other weather conditions. From those records scientists can build a detailed picture of past weather and climate.”

Related Links
Understanding climate change
A preliminary study of 6,000 logbooks has produced results that raise questions about climate change theories. One paper, published by Dr Dennis Wheeler, a Sunderland University geographer, in the journal The Holocene, details a surge in the frequency of summer storms over Britain in the 1680s and 1690s.

Many scientists believe storms are a consequence of global warming, but these were the coldest decades of the so-called Little Ice Age that hit Europe from about 1600 to 1850.

Wheeler and his colleagues have since won European Union funding to extend this research to 1750. This shows that during the 1730s, Europe underwent a period of rapid warming similar to that recorded recently – and which must have had natural origins.

Hints of such changes are already known from British records, but Wheeler has found they affected much of the north Atlantic too, and he has traced some of the underlying weather systems that caused it. His research will be published in the journal Climatic Change.

The ships’ logs have also shed light on extreme weather events such as hurricanes. It is commonly believed that hurricanes form in the eastern Atlantic and track westwards, so scientists were shocked in 2005 when Hurricane Vince instead moved northeast to hit southern Spain and Portugal.

Many interpreted this as a consequence of climate change; but Wheeler, along with colleagues at the University of Madrid, used old ships’ logs to show that this had also happened in 1842, when a hurricane followed the same trajectory into Andalusia.

[mundame]

It isn't that humanity is at blame for Global Warming.......It's that America is the culprit, until "they" (And we know who "they" is) takes back the White House, and increases their majorities in both Houses of Congress.

If, B.O. gets elected, you just watch how this Global Warming "Thingy" becomes a back section issue in the media.



Well, it's that George Bush is the culprit, as well as the rest of us, somehow. I agree with you, eightball --- I've been saying for years that as soon as a Dem gets into the White House, this whole global cooling thing will dry up and blow away.

Immediately.

[SpidermanTUba]

after the last major ice age, did something melt or is ice at the same level?

Things melt when the temperature gets warmer, yes.

[SpidermanTUba]

Maybe you should stop being an ass and you'll get your questions answered.

But not by me, I'm not getting into an existential argument with you. The debate here is whether or not something is melting, not what the definition of "normal" is. Your questions are irrelevant..


Why exactly is my questioning YOU on the NORMAL amount of ice irrelevant?
[QUOTE]

See above answer.


[QUOTE=Nukeman;279185]
If you or the doom sayers can not even determine what NORMAL is than you can not say something is abnormal now can you?

Doom sayer? Did I say anything was abnormal? I just said the northern ice cap is overall melting. It is - that's a fact. And you're flipping out over it.




This is in no way existential it deals in cold hard facts. To say something is not normal YOU must first determine what NORMAL is.

I'm saying that the ice is melting.



Your really not this stupid are you or are you just being obtuse. Your "ilk" consists of the doom sayers that think humans are the end all of everything.


I'm not sure how pointing out the scientific fact that the northern ice cap is melting makes me part of any ilk except perhaps the ilk of the obvious.



Yet YOU and others seem to think that because right now we are in a melting trend it must somehow be the end of times and that humans are to blame....

No, I never said anything about an end of times.

You consistently are reading things into what I'm saying that simply aren't there. You're belligerent, illogical, and rude.

[SpidermanTUba]

It isn't that humanity is at blame for Global Warming.......It's that America is the culprit, until "they" (And we know who "they" is) takes back the White House, and increases their majorities in both Houses of Congress.

If, B.O. gets elected, you just watch how this Global Warming "Thingy" becomes a back section issue in the media.

This, "We are Bad" and "They/world are the victims of us" thing is all they've campaigned on since the 60's.

This is akin to Marxian philosophy that precipitated the 1917 revolution in Russia, and Cambodia's Pol Pot, takeover, etc...

GOP are wealthy elitists, while the other party is the party of the alleged, "people". Wealth must be redistributed, as it is not fair for some through entreprenarial spirit to have more. Capitalism is evil, socialism is covertly masked as being "Fair" or leveling the playing field.

The Teacher's union will get fatter and sassier as the biggest lobbying monolith, then next the environmental lobbies of the Sierra Club, Earth First, Green Peace and all their sub organizations that are not unlike root systems connected to an invasive species.

All the past Roosevelt and even JFK Democrats who are of WW2 vintage and a little after are all passing away in advanced age, as their Party has been morphing since the 60's into an entity that they could not identify with nor embrace.

This country is in the throws of a "Me, Myself" Voltairian change, that is so sad, and so far from the Fore-Father's dream that was spawned in the 18th century.



Dude, what does ANY of this have to do with melting ice?

[SpidermanTUba]

Here is some new information for you "Spiderman" I hope you can find the time to read. Maybe you can even realize that WE don't have all the answers at this time especially on a topic that has only been studied for a few decades!!!!!!:poke:


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article4449527.ece

OK, so how does that change the fact that the northern ice cap is presently experiencing a net melting?

[mundame]

Dude, what does ANY of this have to do with melting ice?


It's that a lot of us don't believe that it IS melting, SpidermanTuba. Or if it is, it freezes up again when it gets cold.

Global warming got put on hold for this decade anyway, right? The mean Earth temperature decreased, so much for global warming.




But watch out for the next Ice Age.............

Run! Run!! Here come the glaciers!!!

[SpidermanTUba]

It's that a lot of us don't believe that it IS melting, SpidermanTuba.

It doesn't matter what your "beliefs" are - this isn't a religion. The melting northern ice cap is an observed scientific fact, you can't just disbelieve it away. There are clear downward trends in all of these observations:

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.anom.jpg
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/seasonal.extent.1900-2007.jpg
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.area.jpg
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/sea.ice.anomaly.timeseries.jpg

[eighballsidepocket]

It doesn't matter what your "beliefs" are - this isn't a religion. The melting northern ice cap is an observed scientific fact, you can't just disbelieve it away. There are clear downward trends in all of these observations:

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.anom.jpg
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/seasonal.extent.1900-2007.jpg
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.area.jpg
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/sea.ice.anomaly.timeseries.jpg

Don't you understand that this Global Warming is being politicized?

The earth has been going through cyclical warming/cooling for millions of years.

The big stickler with that other party is that they want to stick the blame on mankind+GOP+Conservative+America+you name it........All is open game to them who want to believe man is to blame, and more notably America. Also they want the White House so bad they will point unscientific fingers at anyone or anything that will paint the other party or persons of that party as evil.

All along China is forcing folks out of their industrial jobs in Bejing to cut down on their terrible air pollution, that runs over 400+ points. All of this to project to the world during the Summer Olympics that they are a progressive, humanity, and enviromentally friendly country.

Under cover..........God forbid that you should have more than one child in your family, or carry a protest sign ala, Tianamen Square!

When the S.F. Bay Area was inundated with wildfire smoke from 1,500+ fires burning all over the Northern part of the state, our air pollution numbers were in the 200's. China's big industrial cities are 300-400 pts. on the air dirt scale on a regular basis, unless they get a breezy day to blow some of it away.

Does China get a "bye"? for sure.............cause they are not America.

India and China have the foulest industrial air pollution in the world. On L.A.'s worst smog day, it would be considered moderate in Bejing or New Delhi, but, no, we are the bad guys..........We use the most fossil fuels, we won't sign the Kyoto treaty that is designed by third world countrys to basically castrate our economy.

I'm so tired of our country being the "bad guy" when the rest of the world is busy settling their problems by killing each other, or polluting the heck out of their air, or raping their environment for coal, diamonds, copper etc. All the while, we are following strict EPA guidelines, that include replanting, and reforestation where strip mining is being done; using scraper/filters on our factory smoke stacks, using methane from old land fills to create electricity.......You name it! Folks can't even burn firewood in their fireplaces in the San Juaquin Valley anymore if they buy a newly built home. Why? Cause builders can't build houses with fireplaces anymore in that locality.

Us Americans are doing so much more that the rest of the world. Yet, we are still branded the "evil" entity of the world by a large portion of our own citizenry. It's a sad state of affairs and times.

China not a few years ago was still building air fouling steam powered locomotives, cause they have such an abundance of coal. That's real progressive isn't it?

Whens the last time you saw a commercially operated coal, or oil burning steam freight/passenger locomotive in the U.S.?

As covert as that one side of politics is in our country, their true agenda just bleeds out of the cracks........

They call themselves patriots, yet they don't hesitate to block commute traffic on bridges, to protest environmental or other issues...........thus angering and not endearing "Joe American" to their cause.

Sadly, I really think that "they" want our economy to fail miserably so that they can have the "power base" of the executive and strengthen their congressional base/majority.

It's pretty sad when Americans who don't agree on policy are willing or covertly to "hope" that things will get worse in order to further their own agenda of calling the shots.

The party that "feels" your pain really make me wonder?

[SpidermanTUba]

Don't you understand that this Global Warming is being politicized?

The earth has been going through cyclical warming/cooling for millions of years.

The big stickler with that other party is that they want to stick the blame on mankind+GOP+Conservative+America+you name it........All is open game to them who want to believe man is to blame, and more notably America. Also they want the White House so bad they will point unscientific fingers at anyone or anything that will paint the other party or persons of that party as evil.

All along China is forcing folks out of their industrial jobs in Bejing to cut down on their terrible air pollution, that runs over 400+ points. All of this to project to the world during the Summer Olympics that they are a progressive, humanity, and enviromentally friendly country.

Under cover..........God forbid that you should have more than one child in your family, or carry a protest sign ala, Tianamen Square!

When the S.F. Bay Area was inundated with wildfire smoke from 1,500+ fires burning all over the Northern part of the state, our air pollution numbers were in the 200's. China's big industrial cities are 300-400 pts. on the air dirt scale on a regular basis, unless they get a breezy day to blow some of it away.

Does China get a "bye"? for sure.............cause they are not America.

India and China have the foulest industrial air pollution in the world. On L.A.'s worst smog day, it would be considered moderate in Bejing or New Delhi, but, no, we are the bad guys..........We use the most fossil fuels, we won't sign the Kyoto treaty that is designed by third world countrys to basically castrate our economy.

I'm so tired of our country being the "bad guy" when the rest of the world is busy settling their problems by killing each other, or polluting the heck out of their air, or raping their environment for coal, diamonds, copper etc. All the while, we are following strict EPA guidelines, that include replanting, and reforestation where strip mining is being done; using scraper/filters on our factory smoke stacks, using methane from old land fills to create electricity.......You name it! Folks can't even burn firewood in their fireplaces in the San Juaquin Valley anymore if they buy a newly built home. Why? Cause builders can't build houses with fireplaces anymore in that locality.

Us Americans are doing so much more that the rest of the world. Yet, we are still branded the "evil" entity of the world by a large portion of our own citizenry. It's a sad state of affairs and times.

China not a few years ago was still building air fouling steam powered locomotives, cause they have such an abundance of coal. That's real progressive isn't it?

Whens the last time you saw a commercially operated coal, or oil burning steam freight/passenger locomotive in the U.S.?

As covert as that one side of politics is in our country, their true agenda just bleeds out of the cracks........

They call themselves patriots, yet they don't hesitate to block commute traffic on bridges, to protest environmental or other issues...........thus angering and not endearing "Joe American" to their cause.

Sadly, I really think that "they" want our economy to fail miserably so that they can have the "power base" of the executive and strengthen their congressional base/majority.

It's pretty sad when Americans who don't agree on policy are willing or covertly to "hope" that things will get worse in order to further their own agenda of calling the shots.

The party that "feels" your pain really make me wonder?



OK. How does any of that change the fact that the northern ice cap is melting?

[eighballsidepocket]

OK. How does any of that change the fact that the northern ice cap is melting?

I can't tell you how many folks have given you answers to that question.......as well as myself.

It's just plain old nature..........the life cycle of planet earth. It gets hot and it gets cold.

Why is that so hard to accept. You seem to want a sinister manmade reason for it. Why?

There are so man complex intereactions between volcanism, sun spot activity, the amount of sunlight that reaches the earths surface in a given amount of time.

When Krakatoa blew up in the late 1800's, the shock wave of it's eruption was felt/heard over 1,000 miles away. Mean sea level changed all the way in Great Britain, caused by the massive tital wave generated by Krakatoa's eruption.

Also, following Krakatoa's eruption, there was so much silt injected into our earth's upper atmosphere causing a reduction in sunlight reaching the earth's surface, that the following Summer after the eruption, the U.S. Midwest had a freak cold Summer, and basically had Winter continue through the normal hot months.

Why? Cause one massive hiccup from a large volcano caused this massive climatic change.

Man's impact on overall weather conditions is way, over-played. It then becomes politicized..........plain and simple!

We have this politician, who had ties to Big Oil, but received a Nobel prize for enviromental, scientific reasons, which astounds me........., but then again, the Nobel committee has turned what was once an esteemed prize into a politicized ceremony, to legitimize certain radical, and very unscientific agendas. This Nobel Lauriet, lives in a gross polluting home, while GWB's Walker Ranch is state-of-the-art environmentally friendly and economical.

The Irony of Al Gores background lifestyle is astounding..............not unlike the fact that B.O. can say anything, and it's as though the Messiah has spoken to his followers. Deep investigation into these folks is considered "smearing", while GWB's life has been turned inside-out by his detractors, and is considered appropriate.

I think a a lot of folks need to watch the movie, "Idiocracy", cause if we elect and follow these bad-science, "The sky is falling" folks who really are only using this "cause" as an agenda to get their man and party in power, we are on our way to such "stupidity" and lack of "wisdom" in this country, that things will really "dumb" down at an accellerated rate.

Before we know it, we will be feeding our crops with "Rondo", and water will become some obtuse, strange thing, that only conservatives and rightwingers drink.
*********
You must try to get out of your mindset........of GOP/Conservative=Bad............Demo/Liberal=Good....... and evaluate the data out there.

I come from a science background. I'm a Geology major, and have taken so many science related electives in College. No, I'm not a practicing geologist, and actually a retired construction electrician now, but one thing I learned from all my college background in the natural sciences.........."We humans are but a drop in the bucket, when it comes to affecting major global changes of any kind on this big terrestrial ball, called earth." Ozone holes will expand and contract, and it won't be because we quit using R-12 Freon in our cars 15 years ago. One average volcanic eruptions spews more deadly ozone depleting Flourocarbons into the atmosphere than all the leaking R-12 Freon A.C. units in the whole world can muster in a year.

We, mankind make ourselves out to be more influential over our environment that we really our. Obviously, rain forest is being raped to no end in South America, but it is also being replaced with O2 producing agriculture in place of old stand tropical forest. It has been scientifically proven that old stand tropical forest does not per/capita produce as much 02 as younger regrown forestation, and agricultural crops.

Now we are worried about C02, and all U.S. cars and those imported must state how many grams or whatever they spew of C02 in an average year of driving. We are turning into a whistle blowing bunch of pessimistic whiners.

Graham should never have been quieted by McCain, as Graham spoke prophetically of this nation. We have become a pessimistic people................The media has curdled and fed us with nothing but negative based news, and television has capped it off with stupid reality shows, and very idiotic sitcoms.

[SpidermanTUba]

I can't tell you how many folks have given you answers to that question.......as well as myself.

It's just plain old nature..........the life cycle of planet earth. It gets hot and it gets cold.

Why is that so hard to accept. You seem to want a sinister manmade reason for it. Why?


Actually my only claim here is that the northern ice cap is melting.






There are so man complex intereactions between volcanism, sun spot activity, the amount of sunlight that reaches the earths surface in a given amount of time.

When Krakatoa blew up in the late 1800's, the shock wave of it's eruption was felt/heard over 1,000 miles away. Mean sea level changed all the way in Great Britain, caused by the massive tital wave generated by Krakatoa's eruption.

Also, following Krakatoa's eruption, there was so much silt injected into our earth's upper atmosphere causing a reduction in sunlight reaching the earth's surface, that the following Summer after the eruption, the U.S. Midwest had a freak cold Summer, and basically had Winter continue through the normal hot months.

Why? Cause one massive hiccup from a large volcano caused this massive climatic change.

Man's impact on overall weather conditions is way, over-played. It then becomes politicized..........plain and simple!

We have this politician, who had ties to Big Oil, but received a Nobel prize for enviromental, scientific reasons, which astounds me........., but then again, the Nobel committee has turned what was once an esteemed prize into a politicized ceremony, to legitimize certain radical, and very unscientific agendas. This Nobel Lauriet, lives in a gross polluting home, while GWB's Walker Ranch is state-of-the-art environmentally friendly and economical.

The Irony of Al Gores background lifestyle is astounding..............not unlike the fact that B.O. can say anything, and it's as though the Messiah has spoken to his followers. Deep investigation into these folks is considered "smearing", while GWB's life has been turned inside-out by his detractors, and is considered appropriate.

I think a a lot of folks need to watch the movie, "Idiocracy", cause if we elect and follow these bad-science, "The sky is falling" folks who really are only using this "cause" as an agenda to get their man and party in power, we are on our way to such "stupidity" and lack of "wisdom" in this country, that things will really "dumb" down at an accellerated rate.

Before we know it, we will be feeding our crops with "Rondo", and water will become some obtuse, strange thing, that only conservatives and rightwingers drink.
*********
You must try to get out of your mindset........of GOP/Conservative=Bad............Demo/Liberal=Good....... and evaluate the data out there.

I come from a science background. I'm a Geology major, and have taken so many science related electives in College. No, I'm not a practicing geologist, and actually a retired construction electrician now, but one thing I learned from all my college background in the natural sciences.........."We humans are but a drop in the bucket, when it comes to affecting major global changes of any kind on this big terrestrial ball, called earth." Ozone holes will expand and contract, and it won't be because we quit using R-12 Freon in our cars 15 years ago. One average volcanic eruptions spews more deadly ozone depleting Flourocarbons into the atmosphere than all the leaking R-12 Freon A.C. units in the whole world can muster in a year.

We, mankind make ourselves out to be more influential over our environment that we really our. Obviously, rain forest is being raped to no end in South America, but it is also being replaced with O2 producing agriculture in place of old stand tropical forest. It has been scientifically proven that old stand tropical forest does not per/capita produce as much 02 as younger regrown forestation, and agricultural crops.

Now we are worried about C02, and all U.S. cars and those imported must state how many grams or whatever they spew of C02 in an average year of driving. We are turning into a whistle blowing bunch of pessimistic whiners.

Graham should never have been quieted by McCain, as Graham spoke prophetically of this nation. We have become a pessimistic people................The media has curdled and fed us with nothing but negative based news, and television has capped it off with stupid reality shows, and very idiotic sitcoms.

OK. Now could you please explain how any of that changes the fact that the northern ice cap is, overall, melting?

[mundame]

Actually my only claim here is that the northern ice cap is melting.






OK. Now could you please explain how any of that changes the fact that the northern ice cap is, overall, melting?


Oh, hey, do you think the northern ice cap is melting?

Most of us here don't, but you can believe that if you want: your difficulty is going to be persuading anyone else of this belief, I suspect.

Reminds me of all the people who say that the northern ice cap is melting!!! and so all these places on the shore are rapidly submerging and everyone will drown or at least have to move their homes miles inland!

However, I have lived near the Chesapeake for 30 years and the same state park picnic tables are in the same place by the road that runs by the Bay as ever, at least as of 6 PM yesterday evening. They aren't submerged; the Bay hasn't risen an inch; the tables don't even have damp feet.


So the northern ice cap is not melting.

Even if it were, it would hardly be our fault.

[Gaffer]

Actually my only claim here is that the northern ice cap is melting.






OK. Now could you please explain how any of that changes the fact that the northern ice cap is, overall, melting?

So what? Ice melts. In winter it gets replaced with more ice. It's August and there is still ice in the arctic. All the ice in the arctic is not going to melt in spite of what the pseudo-scientists say.

[eighballsidepocket]

Actually my only claim here is that the northern ice cap is melting.

OK. Now could you please explain how any of that changes the fact that the northern ice cap is, overall, melting?

Ok.......So it's melting faster than it's building up........Whats the fuss. It's cyclical if you study earths history on a grand scale.......not the last 50 years.

Here's the corker.......you know and I know that you are trying real hard to tie "mankind" and especially America to this whole melting ice cap scenario.

How about you answer a question for the board. What precipitated the last mini-ice age? Man was spewing pollutants into the atmosphere during and before the mini-ice age. Massive unchecked forest fires ravaged and burned on the North American continent unchecked and unstopped for months during Summers that dwarf the size of the massive wildfires that we have nowadays. Just think of all the carbon based pollutants that were spewed into the atmosphere a thousand years ago from just the massive prairie and forest wildfires that burned and burned for days and months until a massive rainstorm put them out.

One of the reasons that the great Yellowstone fire happened was that poor forest management, allowed undergrowth to grow because small low level fires weren't allowed to burn off this low level stuff. As a result, a massive portion of Yellowstone is burned to a crisp and it will take generations before it grows back.

Never the less, ice caps melt, glaciers recede during periods, then they proceed forward........Weather patterns change do to El Nino and La Nina effects...........

Mean Ocean water temperatures have massive scale affects on our weather...........It's cyclical.

The bottom line is this again..........You know it, the board knows it...........You want to tie a man-caused affect to the cap melt. Man just has to be doing it.

The bible says that we are to be care takers of this planet. We do good and very bad jobs of it. Currently, for such a massive industrialized nation as we are (America), we are doing an incredible job, when you consider the other rising industrial nations of the world. Gross pollution index is dwarf in size compared to other nations, yet a certain element of our population wants to pin blame on certain in-power people of a certain party, that they disagree with on philosophical terms. Sadly they use any tactic and don't hesitate to use guilt by association to unseat them.

The guilt by association bit, is branding the party in power in the executive with arctic cap melting.........I think the American electorate is starting to tire of this blame the one's in power for everything from West Nile fever to Acne.

In fact a recent poll this morning on Yahoo news wire indicated that a majority of the American electorate are tiring of hearing about B. Obama news. In other words the media's love fest with B.O. is finally hitting a saturation point with the citizenry. It's become overt and obvious to the American people that our 4th branch of government the mainstream media isn't fooling us as much as their motives are suspect.
*******
So if your right, and good science says the Arctic caps are melting, then that's what's happening........The Arctic Caps have melted before.

Just recently on the science news, evidence of a much warmer climate in the Antarctic was discovered. They have found frozen moss that is 14 million years old, and also insects and seeds too. One type of seed was beech tree seeds! So here we go again.......14 million years ago, when man hardly was having an industrial revolution of burning millions of tons of coal worldwide and causing an alleged green house gas affect, we had the Antarctic continent in a climate range not unlike parts of tundra-covered Alaska and the Northern Yukon.

Now could you explain why the Antarctic was much warmer and had much less ice than even nowadays, and supported plant and insect life, as it cannot presently? You must rule-out man caused warming.

[MtnBiker]

From NOAA regarding ice;http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/essay_wadhams.html



Sea ice occupies about 7% of the area of the world ocean, and is of enormous importance climatically because it reflects most of the solar radiation that falls on it, affecting the average albedo of the earth, and also because it interposes a solid layer between the ocean and the atmosphere which reduces the free transfer of heat and moisture between the two. Observational evidence at the moment tells us that the sea ice in the Arctic (although not in the Antarctic) is retreating and thinning, and computer models predict that by the 2080s the ice cover will completely disappear in summer, so it is important for us to understand the mechanisms by which sea ice forms and decays.

Then were several link options for other articles, one that contains this;

http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/essay_untersteiner.html



Both the shrinking and thinning of the arctic sea ice cover appear to be in keeping with the poleward amplification of the global warming induced by increased greenhouse loading of the atmosphere and predicted by interactive climate models. Recent computations (e.g. Vinnikov, 1999) closely duplicate the observed reduction of the mean annual ice extent. However, closer inspection reveals a disturbing discrepancy: models show impacts in winter and observations show ice retreat in summer. As we expect from basic physical reasoning, the largest effects of greenhouse warming should be seen in the absence of solar radiation when thermal infrared radiation dominates the surface energy balance, i.e. in winter. The calculations by Vinnikov et al. (1999) and Manabe et al. (1992) indeed show the largest sea ice signal in winter. An explanation of this summer/winter discrepancy has not been offered so far. The absence and presence of sea ice, and its thickness, depend on very small differences between large fluxes of energy. Minor changes of the assumptions about surface albedo, snow cover, cloudiness and cloud radiative properties, ocean heat flux, and other factors, may have large effects on the computed ice cover and require a model precision that remains to be attained.

hmmmmmm??????

Well anyway, ice growth and ice melt, what are the factors? Solar radiation, water currents, wind, cloud cover, water salinaty, temperature, even subsurface volcanic activity and others. Alot to think about and consider.

One thing we know, Nancy Pelosi understands all of this perfectly and she is trying to save the planet, its a good thing we have her to guide us with her unquestionable scientific leadership.

[mundame]

The guilt by association bit, is branding the party in power in the executive with arctic cap melting.........I think the American electorate is starting to tire of this blame the one's in power for everything from West Nile fever to Acne.

Very good. http://macg.net/emoticons/dropsmiley.gif

[SpidermanTUba]

Oh, hey, do you think the northern ice cap is melting?

Most of us here don't, but you can believe that if you want: your difficulty is going to be persuading anyone else of this belief, I suspect.



It doesn't matter what you believe, its an observed fact. You can't wish it away.



However, I have lived near the Chesapeake for 30 years and the same state park picnic tables are in the same place by the road that runs by the Bay as ever, at least as of 6 PM yesterday evening. They aren't submerged; the Bay hasn't risen an inch; the tables don't even have damp feet.

I wouldn't recommend using a picnic table as a tide gauge. For one thing, a tide gauge doesn't really work unless part of it is actually in the water. For another thing, its a picnic table, not a tide gauge.

Measurements using an actual tide gauge in the Chesapeake Bay reveals that the level in the bay has been rising, on average, about 3 mm a year.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs102-98/fig6.gif

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs102-98/



So the northern ice cap is not melting.

I'm not sure how you can conclude that the entire northern ice cap isn't melting because the Chesapeake bay hasn't risen enough to submerge entire picnic tables, especially given the observed fact that it is indeed melting.

[SpidermanTUba]

So what? Ice melts. In winter it gets replaced with more ice. It's August and there is still ice in the arctic. All the ice in the arctic is not going to melt in spite of what the pseudo-scientists say.

Its melting year to year as well.

[SpidermanTUba]

Ok.......So it's melting faster than it's building up........

Ok. We agree then. Why are you still arguing with me?



Here's the corker.......you know and I know that you are trying real hard to tie "mankind" and especially America to this whole melting ice cap scenario.



Where do I try to do this? Link please?

[Nukeman]

Ok. We agree then. Why are you still arguing with me?



Where do I try to do this? Link please?


How about the following whole freaking thread. You have an agenda and your being put in your place you just refuse to see it.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=5957

Through out this whole thread YOU propose that every climactic change is anthropogenic in its origins.

So tell me mister wizard WHY do you think WE put those ideas in your thoughts on this thread????

Maybe because YOU sound like a broken record. You rehash the same themes over and over!!!!

[SpidermanTUba]

How about the following whole freaking thread. You have an agenda and your being put in your place you just refuse to see it.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=5957



What about that thread? Where in it do I claim the northern ice cap is melting as a result of anthropogenic activities? And what does that thread have to do with this one?



Through out this whole thread YOU propose that every climactic change is anthropogenic in its origins.

So tell me mister wizard WHY do you think WE put those ideas in your thoughts on this thread????

Maybe because YOU sound like a broken record. You rehash the same themes over and over!!!!

How does any of this change the fact that the northern ice cap is melting?

[Nukeman]

What about that thread? Where in it do I claim the northern ice cap is melting as a result of anthropogenic activities? And what does that thread have to do with this one?



How does any of this change the fact that the northern ice cap is melting?
Than WHY do YOU care if it is melting. There is NOTHING we can do about it right?????

[crin63]

No matter what happens the global warming alarmists are going to claim its caused by global warming. If the ice is melting its global warming, if the ice grows its global warming, if it stays the same its global warming, if it rains more its global warming, if theres a drought its global warming.......

No matter what happens it will be caused by global warming because they have already invested to much personal credibility into it for them to admit they're wrong just like evolution. No amount of evidence is going to change their minds because it will be to costly to retreat now.

[eighballsidepocket]

No matter what happens the global warming alarmists are going to claim its caused by global warming. If the ice is melting its global warming, if the ice grows its global warming, if it stays the same its global warming, if it rains more its global warming, if theres a drought its global warming.......

No matter what happens it will be caused by global warming because they have already invested to much personal credibility into it for them to admit they're wrong just like evolution. No amount of evidence is going to change their minds because it will be to costly to retreat now.

Exactly! They indeed have put too much personal credibility into it, and they can't back-down from their bad science reasoning, that is inter-twined with politicizing this alleged Global Warming into a campaign intended to sieze the White House, Congress, etc...

As "Tuba" cries that he isn't saying man did it, yet he keeps wanting everyone to know about it, and wring our hands, and find a "scapegoat".

We've wrung our hands trying to give plausible answers to "Tuba", that it is just natural cyclical Earth stuff that has been going for millions of years meteorologically, but he/Tuba doesn't seem to see or read our explanations. He wants one that blames mankind, and more specifically America, and more specifically anything connected to a conservative governmental leadership.

Does he admit an agenda........No.......Does everything Tuba write reek of agenda? Yes!

This is your typical liberal, covert, thread that is all concerned about melting ice caps, but is actually a covert way of starting a "flame" against conservatives, America, and the present executive administration. This is just a small example of what is happening on a larger scale throughout this country by a certain political party.

It's so sad that so many people have latched onto such bad science and are politicizing it to further their motives or desires. The feign concern for the environment.......Yeah, really.......They hope that sea level will flood Los Angeles and New York so they can have their way/adminstration in power.

I'm not really totally convinced that Global Warming isn't happening, but why should it be connected to mankind......when it has been happening on and off for millions of years without man's interference?

[eighballsidepocket]

It doesn't matter what you believe, its an observed fact. You can't wish it away.




I wouldn't recommend using a picnic table as a tide gauge. For one thing, a tide gauge doesn't really work unless part of it is actually in the water. For another thing, its a picnic table, not a tide gauge.

Measurements using an actual tide gauge in the Chesapeake Bay reveals that the level in the bay has been rising, on average, about 3 mm a year.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs102-98/fig6.gif

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs102-98/



I'm not sure how you can conclude that the entire northern ice cap isn't melting because the Chesapeake bay hasn't risen enough to submerge entire picnic tables, especially given the observed fact that it is indeed melting.

Right there with the picnic table explanation, you've resorted to bad reasoning/bad science. That picnic table example is simple, that even a layman in the area of science could understand the observation made by that person.

Obviously, the picnic tables haven't changed their elevation in respect to sea level, so I would say that this is a very good way to measure any changes over a span of time. You refute it, cause you don't want it to give these results. If someone came on and said that their picnic ground was being flooded more and more and now their picnic tables were often under water, you know and I know that you'd jump on that reply with gusto as an example.

Good science looks at and observes without bias, and then concludes. Sadly, many scientists are infected with political bias, and anti-mankind agenda's. Afterall they were often educated in the same universities that spawned political activisim bordering on Marxism/Leninism.

Your responses remind me of a person with their fingers in their ears, yelling, "I don't want to hear this!".

Your responses don't connect with the evidence given to you. You respond to common sense explanations as though you didn't comprehend, or don't want to comprehend. You are trying so very-hard to ignore common sense, and keep pushing for a "scape goat" or someone or group to blame, and you and I know who that is, don't we?

[SpidermanTUba]

Than WHY do YOU care if it is melting.

Hobit said it wasn't. He was wrong, so I corrected him.

[SpidermanTUba]

Right there with the picnic table explanation, you've resorted to bad reasoning/bad science. That picnic table example is simple, that even a layman in the area of science could understand the observation made by that person.


I'm pretty sure everyone knows how to use a ruler as a ruler, and I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't use a picnic table as a ruler. Its great that picnic tables are simple, but unfortunately they can't be used to accurately gauge water levels, for the reasons I've already pointed out.



Obviously, the picnic tables haven't changed their elevation in respect to sea level,
so I would say that this is a very good way to measure any changes over a span of time.


Sure, except for the obvious fact that the picnic tables aren't IN the water, and hence cannot possibly be used to measure the level.



You refute it, cause you don't want it to give these results. If someone came on and said that their picnic ground was being flooded more and more and now their picnic tables were often under water, you know and I know that you'd jump on that reply with gusto as an example.


I don't use picnic tables to measure tide levels, and neither does anyone else. This is the first I've heard of it. It is decidedly unscientific.




Good science looks at and observes without bias, and then concludes.


Good science doesn't use picnic tables to measure tide levels.



Sadly, many scientists are infected with political bias,


Name one and give evidence of the bias.



and anti-mankind agenda's. Afterall they were often educated in the same universities that spawned political activisim bordering on Marxism/Leninism.



So were all the physicists, electrical engineers, and mathematicians - yet you apparently have no problem with using the computers they invented to call into question their credentials.





Your responses remind me of a person with their fingers in their ears, yelling, "I don't want to hear this!".


Really? Because I was hoping it would just remind you of someone pointing out the blatantly obvious fact that picnic tables aren't any good for measuring tide levels to within an inch. But I think you just ignored that obvious fact, and decided to make up a bunch of complete and utter bullshit instead.





Your responses don't connect with the evidence given to you.


I would have thought that talking about using picnic tables to measure tide levels would be in some way connected to someone using picnic tables to measure tide levels, forgive me.



You respond to common sense explanations as though you didn't comprehend, or don't want to comprehend.


Using a picnic table to measure lengths of less than an inch over 30 years isn't "common sense", nor is it good science, its JUST PLAIN STUPID.



You are trying so very-hard to ignore common sense,

Common sense says that the Earth is flat and that heavy things fall faster than light ones. Science doesn't rely on common sense. If it did, it would be called "common sense", and not "science".


You're suggesting that using a picnic table to measure tide levels is more accurate than using a tidal gauge to measure them. Think about that for a minute. Think about how stupid that is. Think about how stupid that makes you look. Would you build a house using a picnic table instead of a tape measure? Wouldn't you look stupid doing that? But heck - since the average layman doesn't know how to use a fucking ruler according to you, why not? Wouldn't it be useless of river flood stages were reported in picnic table lengths instead of, I dunno, FEET? I mean a foot is a common length of measure in this country, most people know about how long a foot and an inch is. But picnic tables come in different lengths, heights, widths. They're useless as any standard of measure. Yet here you stand, maintaining that picnic tables are good science and tide gauges - which not only have rulers on them, but can actually measure the water since they're actually in it - are bad science.

[Gaffer]

Now you got him hung up on picnic tables.

[eighballsidepocket]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows how to use a ruler as a ruler, and I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't use a picnic table as a ruler. Its great that picnic tables are simple, but unfortunately they can't be used to accurately gauge water levels, for the reasons I've already pointed out.



Sure, except for the obvious fact that the picnic tables aren't IN the water, and hence cannot possibly be used to measure the level.



I don't use picnic tables to measure tide levels, and neither does anyone else. This is the first I've heard of it. It is decidedly unscientific.




Good science doesn't use picnic tables to measure tide levels.



Name one and give evidence of the bias.




So were all the physicists, electrical engineers, and mathematicians - yet you apparently have no problem with using the computers they invented to call into question their credentials.





Really? Because I was hoping it would just remind you of someone pointing out the blatantly obvious fact that picnic tables aren't any good for measuring tide levels to within an inch. But I think you just ignored that obvious fact, and decided to make up a bunch of complete and utter bullshit instead.





I would have thought that talking about using picnic tables to measure tide levels would be in some way connected to someone using picnic tables to measure tide levels, forgive me.




Using a picnic table to measure lengths of less than an inch over 30 years isn't "common sense", nor is it good science, its JUST PLAIN STUPID.



Common sense says that the Earth is flat and that heavy things fall faster than light ones. Science doesn't rely on common sense. If it did, it would be called "common sense", and not "science".


You're suggesting that using a picnic table to measure tide levels is more accurate than using a tidal gauge to measure them. Think about that for a minute. Think about how stupid that is. Think about how stupid that makes you look. Would you build a house using a picnic table instead of a tape measure? Wouldn't you look stupid doing that? But heck - since the average layman doesn't know how to use a fucking ruler according to you, why not? Wouldn't it be useless of river flood stages were reported in picnic table lengths instead of, I dunno, FEET? I mean a foot is a common length of measure in this country, most people know about how long a foot and an inch is. But picnic tables come in different lengths, heights, widths. They're useless as any standard of measure. Yet here you stand, maintaining that picnic tables are good science and tide gauges - which not only have rulers on them, but can actually measure the water since they're actually in it - are bad science.

Your bias just keeps rising to the top each and every time you post.

So the old picnic table isn't scientific-enough for you. I come from a scientific university background as a geology major, and also have extensive elective classes in the past in other areas of the natural sciences.

Some of the simplest items can be used to make some of the most basic and profound scientific observations.

So, why do you think these picnic tables are a poor laymans way of measuring mean tide rise or fall. Did the picnic tables.......move themselves to a higher elevation unbeknown to our observant poster who presented the observation?

Don't hit me with that "flat earth" garbage........That's just deflection on your part.

You want things to be "Bad, Bad, Bad".........

Why is this melting ice cap issue so important to you? Will you really come out and admit why you keep drumming a beat for it's happening? Or are you going to avoid answering our inquiries to you, and pretend to be totally innocent of any bias?

You want the GOP, and GWB to be stuck with the label, "Anti-environmentalists", but are afraid to admit that your posts are covert attempts at pushing this agenda.

Be a man and admitt that you want GWB to be demonized for ruining the environment, cause you want your boy or girl on the other side to be in the executive mansion.

Then we can finally close this hopeless thread, that is going nowhere.

[SpidermanTUba]

So the old picnic table isn't scientific-enough for you.


Wow, you're quick.




I come from a scientific university background as a geology major, and also have extensive elective classes in the past in other areas of the natural sciences.


Good for you. I'd like to know what university it was that teaches that picnic tables are better rulers than rulers are.



Some of the simplest items can be used to make some of the most basic and profound scientific observations.


Yeah, but like I said before,

YOU CAN'T USE SOMETHING THAT IS NOT IN THE WATER TO MEASURE THE WATER'S LEVEL

This basic concept seems to be escaping you.




So, why do you think these picnic tables are a poor laymans way of measuring mean tide rise or fall.



YOU CAN'T USE SOMETHING THAT IS NOT IN THE WATER TO MEASURE THE WATER'S LEVEL



Did the picnic tables.......move themselves to a higher elevation unbeknown to our observant poster who presented the observation?


YOU CAN'T USE SOMETHING THAT IS NOT IN THE WATER TO MEASURE THE WATER'S LEVEL

[Gaffer]

A static object, whether a table, a pole, a fence, a house that is near the waters edge can be an indicator of the water level. If the water is closer to the object then the level is up, if the water is farther away from the object, then the water level is down. It's simple logic.

[SpidermanTUba]

A static object, whether a table, a pole, a fence, a house that is near the waters edge can be an indicator of the water level. If the water is closer to the object then the level is up, if the water is farther away from the object, then the water level is down. It's simple logic.

If the water level rises one inch, how much closer will it get to the measuring object?

[manu1959]

A static object, whether a table, a pole, a fence, a house that is near the waters edge can be an indicator of the water level. If the water is closer to the object then the level is up, if the water is farther away from the object, then the water level is down. It's simple logic.

or you could put marks on the picnic table and stand it up in the water.......

by the way tubby....you measure the depth of water not the length of it....

[SpidermanTUba]

or you could put marks on the picnic table and stand it up in the water.......


But glockmail didn't do that. He just looked at some picnic tables on the land and was somehow able to use that to measure the water level to within an accuracy of one inch.



by the way tubby....you measure the depth of water not the length of it....

You measure depth using units of length. And depth would refer to the full distance between the bottom of the bay and the top of the water. A tide gauge may not necessarily have its zero on the bottom of the body of water. It doesn't need to, because its only used to measure relative levels.