Democrats Fail to Overcome Senator’s Grip on Bill

[Psychoblues]

Republicans, sheeesh, who needs 'em?

July 28, 2008
Democrats Fail to Overcome Senator’s Grip on Bill
By DAVID STOUT
WASHINGTON — A bill to advance dozens of federal programs stalled in the Senate on Monday afternoon as a narrow majority was unable to free them from the legislative grip of Senator Tom Coburn, the Oklahoma Republican who takes pride in being stubborn.

The vote was 52 to 40 in favor of the Advancing America’s Priorities Act, but 60 “yes” votes were required under Senate rules. The act embraces dozens of programs costing an estimated $10 billion and covering health care, crime prevention, aid to victims of paralysis and other items.

What happens next was not immediately clear. The Senate is supposed to adjourn at the end of the week, but Mr. Coburn, who has blocked the programs by putting a personal “hold” on them, has said he would back most of them if the lawmakers laid out ways to pay for them and did something about high gasoline prices.

A spokesman for Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the Democratic majority leader, said Mr. Reid would probably try to convert some “no” votes over the August recess. The spokesman, Jim Manley, said breaking the legislation into its separate elements is also a possibility.

The legislative smorgasbord was put together by Mr. Reid “to give the Senate the chance to overcome this senseless obstructing of the nation’s business,” as Mr. Reid put it before the roll-call vote...........

More: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/28/washington/28cnd-cong.html?_r=2&hp=&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1217283720-D0%20DrFlQ3dqEpZ1crGrY3g&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

In the meantime, we still have crime, healthcare issues and an obstructive Senator from Oklahoma. It ain't like it hasn't happened before.

[Little-Acorn]

Good for Coburn. He has prevented the passage of these unconstitutional bills, and kept a check (however small) on the growth of the Federal government.

As a side bennie, sounds like he also pissed off a number of liberals, always a good thing. :D

Wish we had 98 more like him.

[Psychoblues]

What makes you say the bill is unconstitutional, LA? And how do you explain that the bill proposes to grow the government?



Good for Coburn. He has prevented the passage of these unconstitutional bills, and kept a check (however small) on the growth of the Federal government.

As a side bennie, sounds like he also pissed off a number of liberals, always a good thing. :D

Wish we had 98 more like him.

Just wondering??!!????!?!??!:salute:

98 more? Ain't gonna happen, my friend!!!!!!!!!!!!

[5stringJeff]

Good for Coburn. He has prevented the passage of these unconstitutional bills, and kept a check (however small) on the growth of the Federal government.

As a side bennie, sounds like he also pissed off a number of liberals, always a good thing. :D

Wish we had 98 more like him.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

My thoughts exactly. Coburn is one of the few small-government Senators we have.

[avatar4321]

In the meantime, we still have crime, healthcare issues and an obstructive Senator from Oklahoma. It ain't like it hasn't happened before.

I have to ask. Do you think that if this bill is passed crime and healthcare will be resolved? My guess is that crime will still occur. My guess is healthcare will still be a problem. Has it ever not been?

[Psychoblues]

There are law enforcement agencies, healthcare workers and establishments, etc., etc., needing that funding to continue their work, a'21. I equate fuckin' with them the same as I do fuckin' with the troops. Can you dig it?



I have to ask. Do you think that if this bill is passed crime and healthcare will be resolved? My guess is that crime will still occur. My guess is healthcare will still be a problem. Has it ever not been?

And the answer is no, I don't think any amount of funding will completely solve any problems. But we've certainly seen how underfunding and late funding works, haven't we?

[actsnoblemartin]

I agree with funding, but we need leadership as well otherwise all you have is throwing money at a problem with no results


There are law enforcement agencies, healthcare workers and establishments, etc., etc., needing that funding to continue their work, a'21. I equate fuckin' with them the same as I do fuckin' with the troops. Can you dig it?




And the answer is no, I don't think any amount of funding will completely solve any problems. But we've certainly seen how underfunding and late funding works, haven't we?

[Psychoblues]

These bills will be passed, marteen, and the funding will be there eventually. Coburn is trying to look good for his constituency right now. I think it will backfire on him though.



I agree with funding, but we need leadership as well otherwise all you have is throwing money at a problem with no results

[actsnoblemartin]

cutting wasteful funding is one thing, but cutting funding too things that we need like healthcare and police forces is just stupid


These bills will be passed, marteen, and the funding will be there eventually. Coburn is trying to look good for his constituency right now. I think it will backfire on him though.

[Psychoblues]

I've been in and around politics for many years, marteen. Neither party is exempt from waste, fraud and abuse. But, I do have to tell you that the hypocrisy of the reich wingers sickens me to no end. Their shenanigans would wind most people up in jail. They would literally rob your mother to pay their own brother if not themselves. Dig it?




cutting wasteful funding is one thing, but cutting funding too things that we need like healthcare and police forces is just stupid

[actsnoblemartin]

I appreciate your honesty, and let me ask you, why do you believe right wingers are hypocritical and do you believe left wingers are ever hypocrical?

do you consider me a reich winger :poke:


I've been in and around politics for many years, marteen. Neither party is exempt from waste, fraud and abuse. But, I do have to tell you that the hypocrisy of the reich wingers sickens me to no end. Their shenanigans would wind most people up in jail. They would literally rob your mother to pay their own brother if not themselves. Dig it?

[Psychoblues]

Hypocrisy is found in every party, every church, synagogue, temple etc. and in every person to one degree or another, marteen. Some are just more smug with it than others and that's what I don't like about the reich wingers. They excuse their own hypocrisy by blaming others for it. It's a long subject with me, marteen.



I appreciate your honesty, and let me ask you, why do you believe right wingers are hypocritical and do you believe left wingers are ever hypocrical?

do you consider me a reich winger :poke:

Are you a reich winger, marteen? Do you think you're a reich winger? I don't think you are. You certainly have some thought processes that are considerably different from my own and I see by your writings that your personal experience and beliefs, right or wrong, lead you in your thinking. We are all afflicted with that truism. Some of us do better with objective discernment and contemplation than others and some just refuse to do better at all, don't cha know?

[actsnoblemartin]

I try not to be too judgmental

but sometimes im a bit over the top :laugh2:

id say a moderate conservative, with some libertarian leanings

but who knows :laugh2:


Hypocrisy is found in every party, every church, synagogue, temple etc. and in every person to one degree or another, marteen. Some are just more smug with it than others and that's what I don't like about the reich wingers. They excuse their own hypocrisy by blaming others for it. It's a long subject with me, marteen.




Are you a reich winger, marteen? Do you think you're a reich winger? I don't think you are. You certainly have some thought processes that are considerably different from my own and I see by your writings that your personal experience and beliefs, right or wrong, lead you in your thinking. We are all afflicted with that truism. Some of us do better with objective discernment and contemplation than others and some just refuse to do better at all, don't cha know?

[Psychoblues]

That's why I would not call you a reich winger, marteen. You do try and anyone should respect that.



I try not to be too judgmental

but sometimes im a bit over the top :laugh2:

id say a moderate conservative, with some libertarian leanings

but who knows :laugh2:

[actsnoblemartin]

one can have an opinion my friend, but he doesnt have the right to degrade one who happens to not share his view.

we are a perfect example, we agree on some, we dont agree on some, we keep it light, we joke around.

others take this too seriously


That's why I would not call you a reich winger, marteen. You do try and anyone should respect that.

[Psychoblues]

I've certainly been guilty of denigration, marteen, and I will probably be guilty again. But, for now I'm trying to do better than that. Wish me luck, cowboy!!!!!!



one can have an opinion my friend, but he doesnt have the right to degrade one who happens to not share his view.

we are a perfect example, we agree on some, we dont agree on some, we keep it light, we joke around.

others take this too seriously

[crin63]

Good for Coburn. It sounds like more Liberal Marxism to me.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs).

[DragonStryk72]

Wait, wait, wait, so far all's I've got is crime and healthcare spending. What are they spending it on? Because as far as I remember, cops get paid by the state (hence being state employees, not federal), and as far as healthcare one, that's way too vague to tell me where it's going.

So unless you can tell me where this spending is going to exactly, then I have say that Coburn could very well be in the right. We do need more people who look at it and go, "Okay, yeah it looks good, but where are we getting the money for this?" as opposed the usual run of things, which can be summed up like this: It's equivalent to buying a brand new car (increasing spending), and then immediately quitting your job (cutting taxes, or "income"), while already in massive amounts of debt (not balancing the budget).

[Psychoblues]

Coburn is wasting the taxpayers time and money for political showmanship purposes, c'63. All he can possibly do is stall the otherwise inevitable. Maybe those Okies appreciate that kind of amateurish political manuveuring. When they find out it was all for naught and cost themselves a few million bucks maybe they will meet out the punishment he deserves and run a true competent in his place, don't cha think?



Good for Coburn. It sounds like more Liberal Marxism to me.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs).

[avatar4321]

Coburn is wasting the taxpayers time and money for political showmanship purposes, c'63. All he can possibly do is stall the otherwise inevitable. Maybe those Okies appreciate that kind of amateurish political manuveuring. When they find out it was all for naught and cost themselves a few million bucks maybe they will meet out the punishment he deserves and run a true competent in his place, don't cha think?

how do you waste money by refusing to spend it? it doesnt make sense.

[Psychoblues]

As per usual you don't read well, a'21. Stalling doesn't mean not spending. The money will be spent and probably in the time alloted for it's use. For now, Coburn is showboating for no good reason costing the time and money of taxpayers that could be better used on genuine items and needs of the population. Are you an Okie?




how do you waste money by refusing to spend it? it doesnt make sense.

[DragonStryk72]

As per usual you don't read well, a'21. Stalling doesn't mean not spending. The money will be spent and probably in the time alloted for it's use. For now, Coburn is showboating for no good reason costing the time and money of taxpayers that could be better used on genuine items and needs of the population. Are you an Okie?

Um, what genuine needs? I asked this already, but am getting no answer. Now, were this a Dem making the stand against a Rep backed bill, you'd be behind it, but because it's a republican, you'll assume the worst of him.

Now, either you're fully versed on this issue that you posed, or you aren't, but have the sack to answer up either way.

[Psychoblues]

Have you ever been on the floor of the Senate, ds'72? The business of the people is addressed the entire time the floor is in session. Useless grandstanding by an obstinate Senator only serves to disrupt the business of the people and especially so in this case. And you are wrong in the political converse. I get just as upset with Dems when they do equally stupid things and believe it or not sometimes they do.



Um, what genuine needs? I asked this already, but am getting no answer. Now, were this a Dem making the stand against a Rep backed bill, you'd be behind it, but because it's a republican, you'll assume the worst of him.

Now, either you're fully versed on this issue that you posed, or you aren't, but have the sack to answer up either way.

Are you satisfied now? Sheesh, are you an Okie, too?

[PostmodernProphet]

someone asked "what will this money be spent on"....that's something that doesn't get talked about much....basically, it's a conglomeration of earmarks that got rejected from other acts......


The following is a list of bills included in the Advancing America's Priorities Act (S. 3297):

Health Education Labor & Pnesion (HELP) Committee Bills
Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis Registry Act (S. 1382/HR 2295)
Christoper and Dana Reeve Paralysis Act (S. 1183/HR 1727)
Stroke Treatment and Ongoing Prevention Act (S. 999/HR 477)
Melanie Blocker Stokes MOTHERS Act (S. 1375)
Vision Care for Kids Act (HR 507/S. 1117)
Prenatally and Postnatally Diagnosed Conditions Awareness Act (S. 1810/HR 3112)

Judiciary Committee Bills
Emmitt Till Unsolved Civil Rights Crimes Act (S. 535/HR 923)
Mentally Ill Offender Treatment and Crime Reduction Reauthorization and Improvement Act (S. 2304/HR 3992)
Drug Endangered Kids (HR 1199/S. 1210)
Reconnecting Homeless Youth Act (S. 2982/HR 5524)
Effective Child Pornography Prosecution Act (HR 4120)
Enhancing the Effective Prosecution of Child Pornography (S. 2869/HR 4136)
PROTECT Our Children Act (HR 3845/S 1738)
Star-Spangled Banner and War of 1812 Bicentennial Commission (S. 1079/HR 1389)

Foreign Relations Committee Bills
Senator Paul Simon Study Abroad Foundation Act (HR 1469/S 991)
Reconstruction and Stabilization Civilian Management Act (HR 1084/S 613)
OPIC Reauthorization (HR 2798/S 2349)
Tropical Forest and Coral Conservation Reauthorization Act (S. 2020/HR 2185)
Torture Victims Relief Reauthorization Act (HR 1678/S 840)
Support for the Museum of the History of Polish Jews Act (HR 3320)

Homeland Security and Government Affairs Committee (HSGAC) Bills
National Capital Transportation Amendments Act(S. 1446/HR 401)
Preservation of Records of Servitude, Emancipation, and Post-Civil War Reconstruction Act (HR 390)
Predisaster Hazard Mitigation Act (HR 6109/S. 3175)

Commerce, Science & Transporation Committee Bills
Broadband Data Improvement Act (S. 1492/HR 3919)
Hydrographic Services Improvement Act Amendments (S. 1582/HR 3352)
Ocean Exploration, Mapping & Research (HR 1834/HR 2400/S. 39)
National Sea Grant College Program Amendments Act (S 3160/HR 5618)
Integrated Coastal and Ocean Observation System Act (S. 950/HR 2342)
Federal Ocean Acidification Research and Monitoring Act (S. 1581/HR 4174)
Training for Realtime Writers Act (S. 675/HR 1687)

Environment Public Works Bills
Captive Primate Safety Act (S. 1498/HR 4933)
The Chesapeake Bay Gateways and Watertrails Network Continuing Authorization Act (S. 2707/HR 5540)
Beach Protection Act (S 2844/HR 2537)
Appalachian Regional Development Act Amendments of 2008 (S. 496)

Rules & Administration Committee Bill
Smithsonian greenhouse bill (HR 5492)


you got to hand it to Reid....he has a firm grasp on the American pulse......energy costs are going through the roof, housing is going through the basement, and America's priorities include "To authorize the Board of Regents of the Smithsonian Institution to construct a greenhouse facility at its museum support facility in Suitland, Maryland, and for other purposes."

[crin63]

Coburn is wasting the taxpayers time and money for political showmanship purposes, c'63. All he can possibly do is stall the otherwise inevitable. Maybe those Okies appreciate that kind of amateurish political manuveuring. When they find out it was all for naught and cost themselves a few million bucks maybe they will meet out the punishment he deserves and run a true competent in his place, don't cha think?

PB I don't see anything in the bill that says it's inevitable. With more time for people to look at whats actually in this bill and because he is drawing greater attention to it by his maneuvering maybe it wont pass.
Look how many judges The President nominated that never got a chance for a vote and now they never will due to similar tactics used by Dems and the wimpy Republicans in Washington.

[avatar4321]

As per usual you don't read well, a'21. Stalling doesn't mean not spending. The money will be spent and probably in the time alloted for it's use. For now, Coburn is showboating for no good reason costing the time and money of taxpayers that could be better used on genuine items and needs of the population. Are you an Okie?

I read perfectly well. If you refuse to authorize spending, how the hell are you spending anything?

It be nice if you actually answered questions instead of acting like a total dickwad.

[avatar4321]

someone asked "what will this money be spent on"....that's something that doesn't get talked about much....basically, it's a conglomeration of earmarks that got rejected from other acts......



you got to hand it to Reid....he has a firm grasp on the American pulse......energy costs are going through the roof, housing is going through the basement, and America's priorities include "To authorize the Board of Regents of the Smithsonian Institution to construct a greenhouse facility at its museum support facility in Suitland, Maryland, and for other purposes."

After seeing the list I fully support stopping this waste in government

[Psychoblues]

The bill is an authorization process bill, a'21. It does not address appropriations and the concerns of Sen. Coburn will be given due consideration in the appropriations process.

It appears to me that Sen. Coburn is pissed that one or more of his particular pet projects has been turned down for consideration probably due to controversial issues with them.

The authorization process will succeed and Mr. Coburn will have egg on his face when it does. Whether the media will address the issue at that time is doubtful.





I read perfectly well. If you refuse to authorize spending, how the hell are you spending anything?

It be nice if you actually answered questions instead of acting like a total dickwad.

This bill does not in any way authorize spending. That issue will come later.

[PostmodernProphet]

This bill does not in any way authorize spending. That issue will come later.

no it won't.....this bill is dead in the water.....

[Psychoblues]

How much is your wager, pmp?



no it won't.....this bill is dead in the water.....

The bill is not dead at all. Did you read the article? Even if it is tabled it will come back again and again in one form or another until it is passed. All the while the Senator stalls, his constituency will place progressively more pressure on him. That is, if the media does it's job and reports the truth of his obstinance.

[PostmodernProphet]

How much is your wager, pmp?




The bill is not dead at all. Did you read the article? Even if it is tabled it will come back again and again in one form or another until it is passed. All the while the Senator stalls, his constituency will place progressively more pressure on him. That is, if the media does it's job and reports the truth of his obstinance.a round of rep points.....and if the media does it's job and reports what the Dems think are American Priorities at this particular time in our crises, I expect the GOP will take control of Congress again.......

[CockySOB]

how do you waste money by refusing to spend it? it doesnt make sense.

Heh, thought the same thing when I read PB's post....

[DragonStryk72]

Have you ever been on the floor of the Senate, ds'72? The business of the people is addressed the entire time the floor is in session. Useless grandstanding by an obstinate Senator only serves to disrupt the business of the people and especially so in this case. And you are wrong in the political converse. I get just as upset with Dems when they do equally stupid things and believe it or not sometimes they do.




Are you satisfied now? Sheesh, are you an Okie, too?

What fantasy world do you live in, PB? Do you remember the discourse on "Freedom Fries"? That was important to the national agenda?

And also, so it is better to keep allowing crap bills through that Bush will rubber stamp into law than stand and fight them?

Now, you jumped this one, PB, not me, and you don't know where that money is supposed to go. You wanna bitch about what this guy stood against, then you should know what he's standing against, not just by arrogant assumption, but actual facts.

[Psychoblues]

You gotta be shittin' me, ds'72?!?!?!?!?!?!????!? How much do you read? Obviously not much on this board!!!!!!!!! Even though this particular thread contains much information that would dispute what you say, there are several other threads right here and also on this board that would indicate you know nothing about what you speak!!!!!

Do I need to link you to all that you ever wanted to know about the business of the United States? I don't think so.



What fantasy world do you live in, PB? Do you remember the discourse on "Freedom Fries"? That was important to the national agenda?

And also, so it is better to keep allowing crap bills through that Bush will rubber stamp into law than stand and fight them?

Now, you jumped this one, PB, not me, and you don't know where that money is supposed to go. You wanna bitch about what this guy stood against, then you should know what he's standing against, not just by arrogant assumption, but actual facts.


Livin' on the lake and smellin' them fish guts: :salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

[DragonStryk72]

You gotta be shittin' me, ds'72?!?!?!?!?!?!????!? How much do you read? Obviously not much on this board!!!!!!!!! Even though this particular thread contains much information that would dispute what you say, there are several other threads right here and also on this board that would indicate you know nothing about what you speak!!!!!

Do I need to link you to all that you ever wanted to know about the business of the United States? I don't think so.





Livin' on the lake and smellin' them fish guts: :salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

Yes, I saw a huge list of departments, but not where the actual money goes. Now, I know it's hard, but these earmarks? They're wrong, very distinctly wrong, PB. They literally, from the info on topic so far, made up an entire bill out of earmarks to try and pass through Congress. Now, somehow, I'm seeing that as.... wrong, yeah, that's still the good word.

To say that everything discussed on the floor is somehow intrinsically important is just plain ignorant. I've watched C-Span, I've seen some of those "vastly important" topics, such as when maybe 10 whole people are on the senate floor. Oh yes, we're gettin shit done there!!

You didn't link, because you didn't look it up, alls you saw was the R next to a name, and you knew he was up to no good (And yes, the Reps are to blame for that much distrust of them). Now, when it was Dems holding up FISA, we they right to hold it up?

Now, you tore into him, and so far, I still don't have my question fully answered. If he is, in fact, at fault here, then fine, I've demonstrated quite well enough that I'll call it against my own, but I don't see that happening here.

[Psychoblues]

Holy shit, cowgirl, we ain't talking money right now!!!!!!! If you had read the article or the thread you would know that!!!!!!!!!! The bills will pass and you and I will probably never know the particulars and nor should we. Our electeds are doing what we elected them to do. One asshole Senator won't spoil that show. Can you grasp it?



Yes, I saw a huge list of departments, but not where the actual money goes. Now, I know it's hard, but these earmarks? They're wrong, very distinctly wrong, PB. They literally, from the info on topic so far, made up an entire bill out of earmarks to try and pass through Congress. Now, somehow, I'm seeing that as.... wrong, yeah, that's still the good word.

To say that everything discussed on the floor is somehow intrinsically important is just plain ignorant. I've watched C-Span, I've seen some of those "vastly important" topics, such as when maybe 10 whole people are on the senate floor. Oh yes, we're gettin shit done there!!

You didn't link, because you didn't look it up, alls you saw was the R next to a name, and you knew he was up to no good (And yes, the Reps are to blame for that much distrust of them). Now, when it was Dems holding up FISA, we they right to hold it up?

Now, you tore into him, and so far, I still don't have my question fully answered. If he is, in fact, at fault here, then fine, I've demonstrated quite well enough that I'll call it against my own, but I don't see that happening here.

Filibuster, PLEASE: :salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

[DragonStryk72]

Holy shit, cowgirl, we ain't talking money right now!!!!!!! If you had read the article or the thread you would know that!!!!!!!!!! The bills will pass and you and I will probably never know the particulars and nor should we. Our electeds are doing what we elected them to do. One asshole Senator won't spoil that show. Can you grasp it?




Filibuster, PLEASE: :salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

I've read the article, and since the guy brought government waste, then yeah, money's a part of that, or are you thinking of a different country?

Hey, have you noticed things getting generally worse these past 10 years? Possibly, just possibly, these "electeds" you're touting as apparently infallible messengers of liberty (instead of normal human elected as our public servants) are a part of the problem, not the solution. Perhaps the mob mentality was not the way that we're supposed to go? What is the point of electing a leader who never leads, who just rolls over play "party lines" the whole time? That guy doesn't represent me or anyone else who voted for him, he represents the part he belongs to, and in that, is a failure to his oath, and to his constituency.

We don't need less of this guy, we need more.

[Psychoblues]

He hasn't produced one sliver of evidence of any waste, fraud or abuse, ds'72. He's just being a dick and a showboat.



I've read the article, and since the guy brought government waste, then yeah, money's a part of that, or are you thinking of a different country?

Hey, have you noticed things getting generally worse these past 10 years? Possibly, just possibly, these "electeds" you're touting as apparently infallible messengers of liberty (instead of normal human elected as our public servants) are a part of the problem, not the solution. Perhaps the mob mentality was not the way that we're supposed to go? What is the point of electing a leader who never leads, who just rolls over play "party lines" the whole time? That guy doesn't represent me or anyone else who voted for him, he represents the part he belongs to, and in that, is a failure to his oath, and to his constituency.

We don't need less of this guy, we need more.

I hope you get more of him. I don't need that kind of incompetence representing me in any level or fashion!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I do my best to see that shits like him aren't elected in my district, county and town!!!!!!!!

Hit it Bing: I'm Dreaming Of A White Christmas: :salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

[PostmodernProphet]

The bills will pass and you and I will probably never know the particulars and nor should we. Our electeds are doing what we elected them to do.

??....if you don't know what they are doing, how do you know they are doing what you elected them to do?.......

[DragonStryk72]

He hasn't produced one sliver of evidence of any waste, fraud or abuse, ds'72. He's just being a dick and a showboat.




I hope you get more of him. I don't need that kind of incompetence representing me in any level or fashion!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I do my best to see that shits like him aren't elected in my district, county and town!!!!!!!!

Hit it Bing: I'm Dreaming Of A White Christmas: :salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

Wait, again, you know this how? Present evidence PB, unless you have reason to fear it. Yeah, I saw that list, and no, even most of it isn't "priority" stuff. I'm sorry you try to elect people who roll over and play dead, but generally, I like my candidates to actually be intent on doing something aside from sit in a nice chair and plunk whatever button their party says to.

[Psychoblues]

The bills are respectable, folks. It is you that needs to present evidence they are not respectable!!!!!!!! Jeeeeeeeeesh!!!!!!!!!

Even then, I'm not likely to agree with you. Why?

Hit it, Eagles!!!!! Your Lying Eyes: :salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute: