Yeshiva Student Returns Obama's Kotel Note

[Psychoblues]

It was just a prank?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!?!


Source: Jerusalem Post

The yeshiva student who pried Barack Obama's prayer note from the Western Wall has apologized.

Identified only by the first initial of his name, Aleph, and with his face obscured, the student went on Channel 2 television Sunday to confess that he took the presidential contender's note last week and passed it to the press.

The resulting coverage of Obama's private, handwritten musings on hope and sin added to the mystique of his campaign visit to Israel but drew international criticism, including from leading rabbis who said Jewish morality had been compromised by the publication.

"I'm sorry. It was a kind of prank," Aleph said, his hands shaking as he fingered the tightly wadded-up sheet of King David Hotel letterhead. "I hope he wasn't hurt. We all believe he will take the presidency."...........

More: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215331119403&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Perhaps it was not thought out very well?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!??

[Yurt]

while this may be something to the jews in israel, i don't see the big deal...you leave a piece of paper in a wall that is quite public...*shrug*

[Psychoblues]

You didn't read the article did you? The article explains the tradition and the respect that is expected on this issue.



while this may be something to the jews in israel, i don't see the big deal...you leave a piece of paper in a wall that is quite public...*shrug*

But, nothing new about that, is it?

[Yurt]

You didn't read the article did you? The article explains the tradition and the respect that is expected on this issue.




But, nothing new about that, is it?

you didn't read my post did you?


while this may be something to the jews in israel, i don't see the big deal...you leave a piece of paper in a wall that is quite public...*shrug*

its just my opinion on the matter, nothing to shatter that LSD bottle

[Psychoblues]

Damnit, yuk!!!!!!!!! Don't you go makin' fun of my Lone Star Draft, LSD!!!!!!!!! That's goin' a step too damned far, don't you know?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!:laugh2::cheers2::laugh2::cheer s2::laugh2::cheers2:

[actsnoblemartin]

you are quite ignorant of judaism and israeli history arent ya :poke:


while this may be something to the jews in israel, i don't see the big deal...you leave a piece of paper in a wall that is quite public...*shrug*

[actsnoblemartin]

your opinion shows your lack of knowledge and/or intellectually laziness or jewish/israeli history.

but who cares about other religions holy places right :lame2:


you didn't read my post did you?



its just my opinion on the matter, nothing to shatter that LSD bottle

[Kathianne]

Hmmm, from The New Republic:

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/07/28/is-anything-sacred.aspx



Is Anything Sacred?

Israeli newspaper Ma'ariv was lambasted for printing the note that Obama placed in the Western Wall, allegedly stolen by a Yeshiva student. "Notes which are placed in the Western Wall are between the person and his Maker; Heaven forbid that one should read them or use them in any way," said the Chief Rabbi of the Western Wall. "This sacrilegious action deserves sharp condemnation and represents a desecration of the holy site."

But according to a statement from Ma'ariv yesterday, the Obama campaign actually leaked the note to reporters before Obama even placed it in the wall. Yediot Aharonot, Israel's most popular daily, apparently also received a copy of the note in advance but decided not to print it. As a Ma'ariv spokesman told the Jerusalem Post:


Barack Obama's note was approved for publication in the international media even before he put in the Kotel [Western Wall], a short time after he wrote it at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem.

Barack Obama may be above politicizing our troops, but I guess he isn't above politicizing religion.

UPDATE: The Obama campaign is denying the note was "approved for publication." Their word against Ma'ariv. But the fact that the paper printed a copy of the actual note means that, regardless of whether the text was circulated ahead of time, someone most have fished the actual note out of the wall--which is still pretty shameful.

--Zvika Krieger

[retiredman]

you are quite ignorant of judaism and israeli history arent ya :poke:


he is indeed...and it really is sad, given the fact that his father IS a jew.

It borders on disrespect...but then, yurt is famous for that.

[Yurt]

he is indeed...and it really is sad, given the fact that his father IS a jew.

It borders on disrespect...but then, yurt is famous for that.

shut up. your insults add nothing to this thread and serve no purpose. you entered this thread solely to insult me and not to engage in discussion. pathetic.

and for the thousandth time, my dad is a christian by faith, but don't let the truth get in your way

[retiredman]

shut up. your insults add nothing to this thread and serve no purpose. you entered this thread solely to insult me and not to engage in discussion. pathetic.

I find your ignorance of jewish tradition regarding the western wall to be appalling - especially given your heritage...and your post was frighteningly ill informed. that is a fact. I have BEEN to the western wall. I have placed a prayer in one of the crevices.... have you? I did so safe in the knowledge that the prayers would be treated with respected. Obama did the same. The student violated that long held practice...for you, the son of a Jew, to not know about that practice is sad, for you to make light of it is disgusting.

[Yurt]

you are quite ignorant of judaism and israeli history arent ya :poke:


your opinion shows your lack of knowledge and/or intellectually laziness or jewish/israeli history.

but who cares about other religions holy places right :lame2:

can you please point me to the verse(s) in the talmud or the torah that discusse the western wall?

can you tell me the significance of the western wall with regards to praying to God. can you give me an example from the jewish holy books pertaining to the western wall?

[retiredman]

can you please point me to the verse(s) in the talmud or the torah that discusse the western wall?

can you tell me the significance of the western wall with regards to praying to God. can you give me an example from the jewish holy books pertaining to the western wall?


weak.... really weak. the tradition is long standing...for you not to know about it given the fact that your father was a Jew is sad, for you to denigrate it makes me nauseous.

[Yurt]

I find your ignorance of jewish tradition regarding the western wall to be appalling - especially given your heritage...and your post was frighteningly ill informed. that is a fact. I have BEEN to the western wall. I have placed a prayer in one of the crevices.... have you? I did so safe in the knowledge that the prayers would be treated with respected. Obama did the same. The student violated that long held practice...for you, the son of a Jew, to not know about that practice is sad, for you to make light of it is disgusting.

what is ill informed, i said it is a big deal to them...a jew who converted to christianity before i was born, but you know that, not that i would expect you to deal honestly. as i said to martin, point me to the verse(s) in the torah or talmud that discusses the western wall. and explain to me how God commanded the jews to place paper in the wall to pray to him.

i really don't care what you think, the fact you bitch and moan about insults yet enter a thread solely to insult shows your true character.

[Yurt]

weak.... really weak. the tradition is long standing...for you not to know about it given the fact that your father was a Jew is sad, for you to denigrate it makes me nauseous.

fuck you, i did not denigrate it liar. if it so weak, i wonder why you can't answer my questions :poke:

so what if it is tradition pastor/preacher...are you telling me jesus did not do away with any jewish traditions?

[retiredman]

what is ill informed, i said it is a big deal to them...a jew who converted to christianity before i was born, but you know that, not that i would expect you to deal honestly. as i said to martin, point me to the verse(s) in the torah or talmud that discusses the western wall. and explain to me how God commanded the jews to place paper in the wall to pray to him.

i really don't care what you think, the fact you bitch and moan about insults yet enter a thread solely to insult shows your true character.

I entered the thread because of my familiarity with the site and my understanding of the tradition involved. I commented on YOUR post in this thread becuase I found it -typically - appalling.

[Kathianne]

I find your ignorance of jewish tradition regarding the western wall to be appalling - especially given your heritage...and your post was frighteningly ill informed. that is a fact. I have BEEN to the western wall. I have placed a prayer in one of the crevices.... have you? I did so safe in the knowledge that the prayers would be treated with respected. Obama did the same. The student violated that long held practice...for you, the son of a Jew, to not know about that practice is sad, for you to make light of it is disgusting.

Actually it looks like his campaign released his 'message' before the kid did. In any case, I've no doubt you believed yours would remain private, as you should.

[retiredman]

Actually it looks like his campaign released his 'message' before the kid did. In any case, I've no doubt you believed yours would remain private, as you should.

and if someone had published it, as this yeshiva student did, I would have thought it WAS a big deal.

[Yurt]

I entered the thread because of my familiarity with the site and my understanding of the tradition involved. I commented on YOUR post in this thread becuase I found it -typically - appalling.

bull, you're lying, you purposefully insulted me and that is all your offered the thread until i called you on it.

further, you can't seem to answer a single question i have posed to you regarding the western wall...all you do is bitch about how disrespectful i am, but yet can't provide anything to substantiate your lie.

[Yurt]

fuck you, i did not denigrate it liar. if it so weak, i wonder why you can't answer my questions :poke:

so what if it is tradition pastor/preacher...are you telling me jesus did not do away with any jewish traditions?

.....amazing, you can't answer questions but you can insult, typical

[Kathianne]

and if someone had published it, as this yeshiva student did, I would have thought it WAS a big deal.

True that, but then again you never had any intention of making it public. It seems Barack's campaign did.

[retiredman]

bull, you're lying, you purposefully insulted me and that is all your offered the thread until i called you on it.

further, you can't seem to answer a single question i have posed to you regarding the western wall...all you do is bitch about how disrespectful i am, but yet can't provide anything to substantiate your lie.

I am not lying. I entered this thread at the OP because I have a personal experience at that sight. I came upon YOUR post and was appalled. Further, you have not posed a question to ME about the western wall. And I would suggest that there are PLENTY of Christian traditions regarding sacred places that are not written down in the new testament that are, nonetheless, quite valid.

[Psychoblues]

That is not true, kitty. It is true that you posted a link to a blogsite that makes such a claim but that claim is disproven by the admission from the young man that he did take the note and he did give it to the news media. The claim in the blog that you mention is simply a claim without an iota of evidence to back itself up. You can hear anything on the internet, kitty.




Actually it looks like his campaign released his 'message' before the kid did. In any case, I've no doubt you believed yours would remain private, as you should.

Otherwise: :laugh2::cheers2::poke::cheers2::laugh2:

[Dilloduck]

and if someone had published it, as this yeshiva student did, I would have thought it WAS a big deal.

WOW--what would you have done? Cried ?

[retiredman]

True that, but then again you never had any intention of making it public. It seems Barack's campaign did.

if Barack wants to tell people what he wrote on his note, that is his to do. Regardless, the yeshiva student fucked up...and he has admitted it.

[retiredman]

WOW--what would you have done? Cried ?

no. I would have been disappointed. wouldn't YOU, in the same situation?

[Dilloduck]

no. I would have been disappointed. wouldn't YOU, in the same situation?

I'm not superstitious enough to stick a prayer in a wall.

[retiredman]

I'm not superstitious enough to stick a prayer in a wall.


good for you

[Dilloduck]

good for you

And you? Why did you stick a prayer in a wall ?

[retiredman]

And you? Why did you stick a prayer in a wall ?


because I believe in God and I believe that the western wall of Solomon's temple is a holy spot and I felt that God might take note of the fact that I made the effort to go there and to respect the tradition surrounding his temple.

[Dilloduck]

because I believe in God and I believe that the western wall of Solomon's temple is a holy spot and I felt that God might take note of the fact that I made the effort to go there and to respect the tradition surrounding his temple.

:laugh2: Damn--you must have looked incredibly pious. A wall is a holy spot? That's idol worship in my book but have at it. My guess is that you did it for the same reason Obama did it.

[hjmick]

:laugh2: Damn--you must have looked incredibly pious. A wall is a holy spot? That's idol worship in my book but have at it. My guess is that you did it for the same reason Obama did it.

What? To try and garner more of the Jewish vote come November?

[Dilloduck]

What? To try and garner more of the Jewish vote come November?

You never know---mfm may be bucking for the VP spot. :laugh2:

[retiredman]

:laugh2: Damn--you must have looked incredibly pious. A wall is a holy spot? That's idol worship in my book but have at it. My guess is that you did it for the same reason Obama did it.

are you calling me a liar? if so, have the balls to come out and say it, you fucking pussy.

[Kathianne]

are you calling me a liar? if so, have the balls to come out and say it, you fucking pussy.

I can understand you're calling him out, couldn't you have done it without slamming women?

[Dilloduck]

are you calling me a liar? if so, have the balls to come out and say it, you fucking pussy.

I bet your cute when you head turns red and steam comes out of your ears. I didn't call you a liar but I can deal with you calling me a pussy quite easily.

[retiredman]

I bet your cute when you head turns red and steam comes out of your ears. I didn't call you a liar but I can deal with you calling me a pussy quite easily.

no...you did call me a liar.

and calling you a Pussy is easy, because it is factual. I, on the other hand, am NOT a liar.

[Yurt]

what is ill informed, i said it is a big deal to them...a jew who converted to christianity before i was born, but you know that, not that i would expect you to deal honestly. as i said to martin, point me to the verse(s) in the torah or talmud that discusses the western wall. and explain to me how God commanded the jews to place paper in the wall to pray to him.

i really don't care what you think, the fact you bitch and moan about insults yet enter a thread solely to insult shows your true character.


I am not lying. I entered this thread at the OP because I have a personal experience at that sight. I came upon YOUR post and was appalled. Further, you have not posed a question to ME about the western wall. And I would suggest that there are PLENTY of Christian traditions regarding sacred places that are not written down in the new testament that are, nonetheless, quite valid.

learn to read, i posted the question to you insulter, but i am not surprised you can't answer it, oh wait, you ALREADY did by saying it was weak. pathetic. you can't substantiate a single claim you have made in this thread all you have are insults. intellectual cowardice.


because I believe in God and I believe that the western wall of Solomon's temple is a holy spot and I felt that God might take note of the fact that I made the effort to go there and to respect the tradition surrounding his temple.

why didn't jesus do the same? where does the bible advocate such a practice? i believe jesus said to keep your prayers private, not to stick them in wall or say them out loud for all to hear like the pharisees....but you know that right, preacher

[retiredman]

I can understand you're calling him out, couldn't you have done it without slamming women?

pussy is an idiomatic expression. I did not mean it as demeaning to women at all....although I guess I can understand why you would not be pleased to have a moron like dildoduck in your ranks anymore than I am to have him in mine.

[Yurt]

can you please point me to the verse(s) in the talmud or the torah that discusse the western wall?

can you tell me the significance of the western wall with regards to praying to God. can you give me an example from the jewish holy books pertaining to the western wall?


weak.... really weak. the tradition is long standing...for you not to know about it given the fact that your father was a Jew is sad, for you to denigrate it makes me nauseous.

your response is pathetic....and you still have not shown how i denigrated anything liar.

[Dilloduck]

no...you did call me a liar.

and calling you a Pussy is easy, because it is factual. I, on the other hand, am NOT a liar.

Where did I call you a liar?

[retiredman]

learn to read, i posted the question to you insulter, but i am not surprised you can't answer it, oh wait, you ALREADY did by saying it was weak. pathetic. you can't substantiate a single claim you have made in this thread all you have are insults. intellectual cowardice.



why didn't jesus do the same? where does the bible advocate such a practice? i believe jesus said to keep your prayers private, not to stick them in wall or say them out loud for all to hear like the pharisees....but you know that right, preacher


sticking them in the western wall is a traditional way of keeing them private. As I said, there are plenty of Christian traditions that are not codified in the new testament but that are, nonetheless, quite sacrosanct.

[Psychoblues]

Being called "dildo" certainly hasn't seemed to bother you, dildo!!!!!!!!



I bet your cute when you head turns red and steam comes out of your ears. I didn't call you a liar but I can deal with you calling me a pussy quite easily.

:laugh2::cheers2::laugh2::cheers2::laugh2:

[Dilloduck]

Being called "dildo" certainly hasn't seemed to bother you, dildo!!!!!!!!




:laugh2::cheers2::laugh2::cheers2::laugh2:


Is it supposed to? Should I cry like MFM would if someone read his secret prayer ?

[Yurt]

sticking them in the western wall is a traditional way of keeing them private. As I said, there are plenty of Christian traditions that are not codified in the new testament but that are, nonetheless, quite sacrosanct.

you can't show i denigrated anything, because you lied. you also lied when you said i have no respect for the jewish tradtion of the western wall...not all jews follow that tradition genius. because it is not in fact codified in anything.

you basically can't support your assertions at all.

[retiredman]

you can't show i denigrated anything, because you lied. you also lied when you said i have no respect for the jewish tradtion of the western wall...not all jews follow that tradition genius. because it is not in fact codified in anything.

you basically can't support your assertions at all.


the tradition is well established. you have no respect for it.

why would the student apologize if he had not done anything wrong? Why would rabbis have been unset if he had not done anything wrong?

just admit that you dishonored your father's faith by speaking too quickly.

[Dilloduck]

you can't show i denigrated anything, because you lied. you also lied when you said i have no respect for the jewish tradtion of the western wall...not all jews follow that tradition genius. because it is not in fact codified in anything.

you basically can't support your assertions at all.

But he looked impressive pulling his little streotypical stunt I bet. I wonder if he did the whole yamulke and prayer shawl bit for emphasis. :laugh2:

[Yurt]

the tradition is well established. you have no respect for it.

why would the student apologize if he had not done anything wrong? Why would rabbis have been unset if he had not done anything wrong?

just admit that you dishonored your father's faith by speaking too quickly.

your lies are pathetic, my father is a christian moron, i've told you dozens of times and even mentioned in this thread. you are sad little liar that has no business in this thread or on the pulpit as you obviously have no clue about the western wall and what jesus said about certain jewish traditions...you say i am denigrating it...how? because i don't believe in the tradition, LOL, maybe i denigrate atheists too because i don't believe in their traditions...

why isn't your wife wearing a hijab, you are denigrating the islamic faith :laugh2:

[retiredman]

your lies are pathetic, my father is a christian moron, i've told you dozens of times and even mentioned in this thread. you are sad little liar that has no business in this thread or on the pulpit as you obviously have no clue about the western wall and what jesus said about certain jewish traditions...you say i am denigrating it...how? because i don't believe in the tradition, LOL, maybe i denigrate atheists too because i don't believe in their traditions...

why isn't your wife wearing a hijab, you are denigrating the islamic faith :laugh2:

I am not a liar...and I am not denigrating the traditions of the jewish faith...you are. very sad.

and as I can recall, your dad was born a Jew.

[Psychoblues]

I dunno. Do you think mfm would cry? I don't. He seems to be at least as respectful as he gets.



Is it supposed to? Should I cry like MFM would if someone read his secret prayer ?

Whatever?!?!??!!?!? Have a :cheers2:on me and keep your tools sharp!!!!!!!!

[Dilloduck]

I dunno. Do you think mfm would cry? I don't. He seems to be at least as respectful as he gets.




Whatever?!?!??!!?!? Have a :cheers2:on me and keep your tools sharp!!!!!!!!

Naaaaaa mfm goes postal and tries to get under people's skin ---HEY--that's sorta like you cept the booze calms down the postal business a bit. :poke:

[retiredman]

Naaaaaa mfm goes postal and tries to get under people's skin ---HEY--that's sorta like you cept the booze calms down the postal business a bit. :poke:

I don't try to get under anyone's skin. I merely post from my own life experiences and my informed viewpoint. if you disagree, and you usually do, that does not get under MY skin in the least. I expect nothing more from you.

[Dilloduck]

I don't try to get under anyone's skin. I merely post from my own life experiences and my informed viewpoint. if you disagree, and you usually do, that does not get under MY skin in the least. I expect nothing more from you.

:laugh2: OK NOW I'll call you a liar---we got an incredible amount of boring posts here as evidence that you taunt the shit out of Yurt. :laugh2:

[retiredman]

:laugh2: OK NOW I'll call you a liar---we got an incredible amount of boring posts here as evidence that you taunt the shit out of Yurt. :laugh2:

I merely stand my ground against yurt. I don't go out of my way to antagonize him.... he has gone out of his way to antagonize me and has made it clear that he intends to continue to do so.

[Yurt]

I merely stand my ground against yurt. I don't go out of my way to antagonize him.... he has gone out of his way to antagonize me and has made it clear that he intends to continue to do so.

dude, stop yer lying...and stop bringing your hatred towards me into every thread on this board, booring...you have already admitted numerous times you say stuff to get my goat...you entered this thread with an insult towards me...hardly evidence that i antagonize you...or that you're standing your ground, i never said a word to you in this thread yet you insult me

grow up and quit the childish insults...

now, why is it you cannot prove where i denigrated the western wall? because you know i did not, yet say i did. that is a lie.

did jesus ever do away with any long held traditions kept by the jews? yes or no preacher.

[actsnoblemartin]

I think once you said "Yurt is famous for that" you went from challenging his statement to insulting him.

His father was born a jew, but that mean anything unless his father raised yurt as a jew, or yurt decided on his own to study judaism.

I was upset, because I felt he was downplaying the importance of the western wall, and his comment was not well thought out or kind, but as far as im concerned with you, youve gone too far in this thread, and it is clear you are trying to get his goat.

I ask that you please stop it.


he is indeed...and it really is sad, given the fact that his father IS a jew.

It borders on disrespect...but then, yurt is famous for that.

[Yurt]

can you please point me to the verse(s) in the talmud or the torah that discusse the western wall?

can you tell me the significance of the western wall with regards to praying to God. can you give me an example from the jewish holy books pertaining to the western wall?

martin?

[Psychoblues]

Children!!!!!!!!!! Behave!!!!!!!!!!!!

[actsnoblemartin]

yes yurt?


martin?

[Yurt]

:lol: dude, answer the questions

can you please point me to the verse(s) in the talmud or the torah that discusse the western wall?

can you tell me the significance of the western wall with regards to praying to God. can you give me an example from the jewish holy books pertaining to the western wall?

:laugh2:

[Yurt]

Children!!!!!!!!!! Behave!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/51/154315026_f17e66ffb4.jpg?v=0

[actsnoblemartin]

I am a torah novice, im not religious, im spiritual

but, its the tradition of jews to pray to the western wall, which is remnents of the destroyed 2nd temple, and we put prayers in it, that we believe god hears


:lol: dude, answer the questions

can you please point me to the verse(s) in the talmud or the torah that discusse the western wall?

can you tell me the significance of the western wall with regards to praying to God. can you give me an example from the jewish holy books pertaining to the western wall?

:laugh2:

[actsnoblemartin]

I dont think you meant any harm or were trying to be offensive yurt, youre one the nicest/least mean-spiritied guys on here, i just thought you were too dismissive/cavaliar about jewish traditions.

you feel me dogg? :laugh2:

[actsnoblemartin]

what i said should NOT be taken out of context.

It is NOT a criticism of you, it was hurt feelings man.

It hurt me to say it, because youre a high character person

I just felt hurt and offended.

Youre not perfect, thats ok :laugh2:

[Yurt]

ok, but just because i don't agree with the tradition does not mean i denigrate it. and just because something is a tradition does not mean it is sacrosanct.

[actsnoblemartin]

as i just said

I do NOT believe you are denigrating it.

and i half israeli

and yes, you have a point about the sacrosanct part

Yurt, can we move on?

I am sorry that i was too harsh with you

I realize you meant no harm, and i retract my original comments as well as any other comments that were critical of you

Everyone else, if they are being intectually honest about this, should let it go, and move on as well.

You say you meant no harm, if people want the benefit of the doubt, they should grant you the same courtesy


ok, but just because i don't agree with the tradition does not mean i denigrate it. and just because something is a tradition does not mean it is sacrosanct.

[Psychoblues]

Now, that's the spirit I'm lookin' for!!!!!!!!!!! Anybody want cookies and KoolAid?

:laugh2::cheers2::laugh2::cheers2::laugh2:

:salute:

[Yurt]

Now, that's the spirit I'm lookin' for!!!!!!!!!!! Anybody want cookies and KoolAid?

:laugh2::cheers2::laugh2::cheers2::laugh2:

:salute:

hell no, get the real stuff

http://the60sofficialsite.com/Lone%20Star%20Beer%20Bottle.jpg

[Psychoblues]

That's the KoolAid I was referring to, yuk!!!!!!!!!! Thanks, dude!!!!!!! I haven't seen one in a good while now!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Could I offer you a Busch as a meager substitute?





hell no, get the real stuff

http://the60sofficialsite.com/Lone%20Star%20Beer%20Bottle.jpg


:clap::laugh2::cheers2::laugh2::cheers2::clap:

[retiredman]

while this may be something to the jews in israel, i don't see the big deal...you leave a piece of paper in a wall that is quite public...*shrug*


to recap: this post shows disrespect to Jews, not only in Israel, but everywhere. I realize that the disrespect has arisen out of yurt's ignorance concerning the religious and cultural traditions that surround that spot, but ignorance is no excuse.

The Western Wall of Solomon's temple is THE holiest spot in the world for ALL the world's Jews, not merely the Jews in Israel. According to rabbinical writings dating back a millennium, prayers made at the wall rise directly to heaven. the written prayers left there are removed several times each year and they are treated as a sacred prayer book and officially buried as such.

In short, what Obama did was much more significant than ...you leave a piece of paper in a wall that is quite public...*shrug* and those of us who understand the traditions involved - and Jews throughout the world - DO see the unauthorized removal and publishing of Obama's prayer to BE a "big deal".

[theHawk]

How is it disrespectful to have your own opinion about another religion's tradition?

No one here ever appointed you as thought police, so do us all a favor and cork it.

[PostmodernProphet]

wouldn't it have been better if he had returned it to the Wall?.....

[retiredman]

wouldn't it have been better if he had returned it to the Wall?.....

I actually think that is exactly what the student did - as noted in the OP

[Yurt]

to recap: this post shows disrespect to Jews, not only in Israel, but everywhere. I realize that the disrespect has arisen out of yurt's ignorance concerning the religious and cultural traditions that surround that spot, but ignorance is no excuse.

The Western Wall of Solomon's temple is THE holiest spot in the world for ALL the world's Jews, not merely the Jews in Israel. According to rabbinical writings dating back a millennium, prayers made at the wall rise directly to heaven. the written prayers left there are removed several times each year and they are treated as a sacred prayer book and officially buried as such.

In short, what Obama did was much more significant than ...you leave a piece of paper in a wall that is quite public...*shrug* and those of us who understand the traditions involved - and Jews throughout the world - DO see the unauthorized removal and publishing of Obama's prayer to BE a "big deal".

you're wrong again. not all jews follow the tradition of the western wall mfm, i'm sure you remember that my father was born, raised jewish and converted to christianity before i was born (how could you forget since you always claim my father is jewish and you use it as an insult, but i am proud of his heritage and my family's despite your malvolence), ergo, his side of the family is jewish and there are many in my family who do not follow the tradition of the wall. i personally have met these people and talked with them and have known them, i guess that makes me more knowledgeable than you...(tongue in cheek to your claim to muslim knowledge)

further, the wall itself is NOT the most holy spot in the world for jews as you claim. why don't you do a little research and find out what sits atop the wall and why the wall is actually important to most jews.

do try and get your facts right mfm. also, do some research on whether sticking a piece of paper in the wall violates the wall's holiness.

and thanks for showing us how intolerant you are of other opinions and how you enter threads solely to piss people off and insult them.

[retiredman]

you're wrong again. not all jews follow the tradition of the western wall mfm, i'm sure you remember that my father was born, raised jewish and converted to christianity before i was born (how could you forget since you always claim my father is jewish and you use it as an insult, but i am proud of his heritage and my family's despite your malvolence), ergo, his side of the family is jewish and there are many in my family who do not follow the tradition of the wall. i personally have met these people and talked with them and have known them, i guess that makes me more knowledgeable than you...(tongue in cheek to your claim to muslim knowledge)

further, the wall itself is NOT the most holy spot in the world for jews as you claim. why don't you do a little research and find out what sits atop the wall and why the wall is actually important to most jews.

do try and get your facts right mfm. also, do some research on whether sticking a piece of paper in the wall violates the wall's holiness.

and thanks for showing us how intolerant you are of other opinions and how you enter threads solely to piss people off and insult them.

jews in America who have not gone to the wall have not had the opportunity to follow the tradition.

Like I said, I have been to the wailing wall, not merely read a wikipedia article about it. I KNOW what sits atop the wall. I have walked all over it. The temple mount is the place where Solomon's temple resided and where the ark of the covenant resided. And actually, the western wall of Solomon's temple, which was the closest wall to the holy of holies IS the most sacred spot in Judaism.

And there has certainly been controversy about whether sticking fingers inside the wall itself is a violation, but the rabbi in charge of the wall supervises and condones the practice of pressing notes into the cracks of the wall, and, as I previously mentioned, also supervises the periodic gathering of those notes and the sacramental burying of them.

[Yurt]

do learn to read...i have jewish relatives and friends and their names are not wiki :poke:

it is NOT the most holy site, it is NEXT to the most holy site, get your facts straight, you are denigrating the jewish beliefs as to what is the most holy site. ;)

and whether some jews in america have been able to go the western wall and follow the tradition has nothing to do with the fact that not all jews follow the western wall tradition as you claimed. you probably think all jews are orthodox and all jews are simply a homogeneous group and that the jewish faith does not have factions.

[retiredman]

do learn to read...i have jewish relatives and friends and their names are not wiki :poke:

it is NOT the most holy site, it is NEXT to the most holy site, get your facts straight, you are denigrating the jewish beliefs as to what is the most holy site. ;)

and whether some jews in america have been able to go the western wall and follow the tradition has nothing to do with the fact that not all jews follow the western wall tradition as you claimed. you probably think all jews are orthodox and all jews are simply a homogeneous group and that the jewish faith does not have factions.

do you know any jews who have lived in Israel or travelled to Israel? Have you talked to them about the western wall? Do they think the practice of inserting private prayers into the wall is nothing more than "you leave a piece of paper in a wall that is quite public...*shrug*" ???
and not all Jews may FOLLOW the tradition, but I sincerely doubt that there are many - if any - Jews who relegate it to leaving a piece of paper is a wall that is quite public.

and I know full well the variety of factions within the Jewish people.... moreso than you do, no doubt.

[Yurt]

do you know any jews who have lived in Israel or travelled to Israel? Have you talked to them about the western wall? Do they think the practice of inserting private prayers into the wall is nothing more than "you leave a piece of paper in a wall that is quite public...*shrug*" ???
and not all Jews may FOLLOW the tradition, but I sincerely doubt that there are many - if any - Jews who relegate it to leaving a piece of paper is a wall that is quite public.

and I know full well the variety of factions within the Jewish people.... moreso than you do, no doubt.

what the heck are you talking about? and who cares what you doubt, doubt away, doesn't change the fact you are wrong on the western wall being the most holy site to jews, among other errors you made.

never mind, i really don't care what you have to say, you will most likely spin the whole thing and change what you said and further insult me, so go pound sand.

[retiredman]

what the heck are you talking about? and who cares what you doubt, doubt away, doesn't change the fact you are wrong on the western wall being the most holy site to jews, among other errors you made.

never mind, i really don't care what you have to say, you will most likely spin the whole thing and change what you said and further insult me, so go pound sand.

the temple mount is the holiest spot..but it has been permanently defiled by the presence of two mosques. All that remains unsullied from the temple mount is the western wall.

do you really want to argue that idiotic distinction, or do you still want to run away from the fact that your claim that the long held tradition of placing private prayers into the western wall is nothing more than "you leave a piece of paper in a wall that is quite public...*shrug*" ???

[actsnoblemartin]

you need to give it a rest already.

It would be one thing, if you made 1, maybe 2 posts about this, but you are using yurt's words as a battering ram against him.

as far as im concerned, you're hear to verbally attack/bash him.

Was his words insensitive, yes?, disrespect, perhaps?

But your main concern is sticking it to yurt, not protecting jewish honor and how do i know that?, you keep repeating yourself

do us all a favor, and knock it off already. You're the one who is now acting insensitive, rude, and spiteful, by having to constantly attack yurt, on his jewish heritage. Yes, i have seen you do it, before and we all dont need constant reminders that hehehehe, your dads a jew dumbass, your an idiot yurt, or whatever other insults you can fly.

Im not defending yurt because he is my friend, im defending him, because you have crossed the line from legitimate criticism to flat out obnoxious

Did
the temple mount is the holiest spot..but it has been permanently defiled by the presence of two mosques. All that remains unsullied from the temple mount is the western wall.

do you really want to argue that idiotic distinction, or do you still want to run away from the fact that your claim that the long held tradition of placing private prayers into the western wall is nothing more than "you leave a piece of paper in a wall that is quite public...*shrug*" ???

[Kathianne]

This is OT, but a follow up on Martin's. No disrespect meant Martin, but when one of the foremost derailers of threads and occasional poster of profanity and vulgarities addresses the issue of such with others and many find him correct, those that continue the behavior and have impulse control fully intact, they should consider and give pause to their posting.

Many of us, including those that often are posting in retaliation for considered or real slights or insults, appreciate Jim giving us a forum to discuss and argue with those we agree or disagree with. Those that keep having to 'stand up for themselves against the slights/insults' are making the whole board look a venial place and I for one agree with Martin presently, it is detrimental and boring.

[actsnoblemartin]

I'm lost

can you explain what you mean here.


This is OT, but a follow up on Martin's. No disrespect meant Martin, but when one of the foremost derailers of threads and occasional poster of profanity and vulgarities addresses the issue of such with others and many find him correct, those that continue the behavior and have impulse control fully intact, they should consider and give pause to their posting.

Many of us, including those that often are posting in retaliation for considered or real slights or insults, appreciate Jim giving us a forum to discuss and argue with those we agree or disagree with. Those that keep having to 'stand up for themselves against the slights/insults' are making the whole board look a venial place and I for one agree with Martin presently, it is detrimental and boring.

[Kathianne]

I'm lost

can you explain what you mean here.

I'm sorry. I'm agreeing with you that some are carrying on vendettas throughout the boards and within threads, derailing some good discussions and arguments.

[actsnoblemartin]

oh my apologies.

I get confused easily sometimes.

I myself, and trying to stay away from being vindictive, or vulgar and be more cultured, mannered and polite

thanks kathianne :cheers2:


I'm sorry. I'm agreeing with you that some are carrying on vendettas throughout the boards and within threads, derailing some good discussions and arguments.

[retiredman]

I will certainly cease my discussion with yurt about the western wall. I know what a special place it is... I have been there and I have placed a prayer in it... I understand how most people were disappointed in the actions of the yeshiva student, including the rabbi in charge of the wall, and I am pleased the student put the prayer back where it belonged.

[Kathianne]

I will certainly cease my discussion with yurt about the western wall. I know what a special place it is... I have been there and I have placed a prayer in it... I understand how most people were disappointed in the actions of the yeshiva student, including the rabbi in charge of the wall, and I am pleased the student put the prayer back where it belonged.

I applaud your attempt for conciliation. I didn't mean you or others shouldn't post, far from it. You are correct about the Western Wall being a special place and I agree that the student was wrong to take the note and right in returning it.

Now if others can show the same spirit, the board will move closer to what we all would like. Kudos MFM.

[Yurt]

kathianne, if you have something to say to me, either be direct or you can PM me. enough with innuendos and the like... from my take you are now putting this off on me, as if i won't reconciliate. absurd and uncalled for.

[Psychoblues]

I didn't see it that way, yuk. Kitty was superbly doing her job as a board moderator and putting blame on no single person or argument. You have to admit the conversation was intended to be concerned with the taking of the note from the wall, making it public and later returning it. The conversation deteriorated when some took the implications personally. That unfortunate circumstance was not fair to the spirit of the conversation or the purpose of this message board, imho.

BTW, Thanks for the LSD in the bottle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can we talk about the Catholics?

[Yurt]

and your post has what to do with the topic of the thread :laugh2:

at least you didn't enter this thread with no debate and solely an insult, bravo.

start a thread about catholics if you want.

let me ask you this, just because something is a tradition, does that in and of itself make it sacrosanct?

[Kathianne]

kathianne, if you have something to say to me, either be direct or you can PM me. enough with innuendos and the like... from my take you are now putting this off on me, as if i won't reconciliate. absurd and uncalled for.It wasn't directed at you at all in particular. It was directed at anyone that cares about the tone of the board and wishes for Jim's attempt to provide a forum for interested persons to converse. If you have a question or complaint for me, feel free to pm me or any staff member.


I didn't see it that way, yuk. Kitty was superbly doing her job as a board moderator and putting blame on no single person or argument. You have to admit the conversation was intended to be concerned with the taking of the note from the wall, making it public and later returning it. The conversation deteriorated when some took the implications personally. That unfortunate circumstance was not fair to the spirit of the conversation or the purpose of this message board, imho.

BTW, Thanks for the LSD in the bottle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can we talk about the Catholics? Rage ahead on Catholics, I'll join in on the fray. BTW, thanks for sounding off on my behalf, who knows, someday we might agree on something of substance, unlikely that may be.

[Psychoblues]

You just might be surprised, kitty. Actually I don't have a problem with Catholics. Religion, however, is always good for getting some shit goin' when we get tired of fighting about politics, don't you know?





Rage ahead on Catholics, I'll join in on the fray. BTW, thanks for sounding off on my behalf, who knows, someday we might agree on something of substance, unlikely that may be.

Carry on, kitty, and I wish you nothing but the very best!!!!!!!!!!

:cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2:

[actsnoblemartin]

at some point, I think you should be forgiving, and not hold a grudge, just some friendly unsolicited advice

accept or reject my friend :laugh2:


and your post has what to do with the topic of the thread :laugh2:

at least you didn't enter this thread with no debate and solely an insult, bravo.

start a thread about catholics if you want.

let me ask you this, just because something is a tradition, does that in and of itself make it sacrosanct?

[Dilloduck]

he is indeed...and it really is sad, given the fact that his father IS a jew.

It borders on disrespect...but then, yurt is famous for that.

Here's the first posting you made in this thread.

Is this the knowlege and experience in the region that you wanted to share with us ?:laugh2:

You owe Yurt an apology.

[retiredman]

Here's the first posting you made in this thread.

Is this the knowlege and experience in the region that you wanted to share with us ?:laugh2:

You owe Yurt an apology.

I owe yurt nothing beyond what he has already gotten.

[Yurt]

:lmao:

[Psychoblues]

Be nice, yuk!!!!!!!!



:lmao:

Can I buy you something to drink? Thanks for your participation in the lounge. I think we need more, NOT LESS, of that!!!!!!!!!!

[retiredman]

yurt can call me a liar day after day after day and NEVER be speaking the truth, and NEVER apologize...but I point out that he has stated that his dad was born a Jew and that I thought that background should have given him a bit more sensitivity to the significance of prayers at the wailing wall... and all of a sudden I've got to apologize to HIM?? For WHAT? Speaking the truth??? I have given the little shyster plenty of opportunity to bury this hatchet. Fuck him. He needs to step up and do the right thing or be man and take his licks. Fucking whiny little pussy.:pee:

[Yurt]

how is laughing not nice psycho?

mfm, i will apologize for calling you a liar when you show that you are not...concerning the times i called you a liar.

for example, my dear, dear friend from maine....we have discussed ad nauseum that my dad is not a jew...now...in pm's, on the board, i have even called you a liar for it, yet here you are continuing your stupidity.

only you can prevent stupidity....

[retiredman]

how is laughing not nice psycho?

mfm, i will apologize for calling you a liar when you show that you are not...concerning the times i called you a liar.

for example, my dear, dear friend from maine....we have discussed ad nauseum that my dad is not a jew...now...in pm's, on the board, i have even called you a liar for it, yet here you are continuing your stupidity.

only you can prevent stupidity....

is your paternal grandmother a jew, yes or no?

[Yurt]

is your paternal grandmother a jew, yes or no?

yes

can't wait for the "faith" part

[retiredman]

yes

can't wait for the "faith" part

if your paternal grandmother is a Jew, then your father is a Jew, even if he converted to Christianity. Jewishness is passed from the mother. That's why your dad's a Jew but you are not.

Again...being a "Jew", especially in Israel, has ZERO to do with whether or not you practice the faith.

[Yurt]

if your paternal grandmother is a Jew, then your father is a Jew, even if he converted to Christianity. Jewishness is passed from the mother. That's why your dad's a Jew but you are not.

Again...being a "Jew", especially in Israel, has ZERO to do with whether or not you practice the faith.

your point....?

[retiredman]

your point....?

your saying that you dad is not a jew is incorrect... and my point was that perhaps you might have learned a little about the customs and traditions surrounding the wailing wall, if not from your jewish dad, then maybe from your jewish grandmother.... but I cannot imagine you paying much attention to the familial cultural lessons from your elders.

[Yurt]

your saying that you dad is not a jew is incorrect... and my point was that perhaps you might have learned a little about the customs and traditions surrounding the wailing wall, if not from your jewish dad, then maybe from your jewish grandmother.... but I cannot imagine you paying much attention to the familial cultural lessons from your elders.

my jewish grandmother thought the wall a joke. and oh yeah, when we were shopping for "jewish" food, you know hebrew national...., she made sure to shout out the brand of "links" i was to get.

oh, and she says you are gay and to stop it, just stop it, stop it now......

[retiredman]

my jewish grandmother thought the wall a joke. and oh yeah, when we were shopping for "jewish" food, you know hebrew national...., she made sure to shout out the brand of "links" i was to get.

oh, and she says you are gay and to stop it, just stop it, stop it now......

it's sad that you would dishonor your heritage. :(

[red states rule]

it's sad that you would dishonor your heritage. :(

and it is sadder you claim to be a preacher and all you do is spread hate. You live to come here and derail threads, make racist insults, and show everyone what an obnoxious jerk you realy are

[Sitarro]

while this may be something to the jews in israel, i don't see the big deal...you leave a piece of paper in a wall that is quite public...*shrug*

Yea, here it would be called littering.

[retiredman]

and it is sadder you claim to be a preacher and all you do is spread hate. You live to come here and derail threads, make racist insults, and show everyone what an obnoxious jerk you realy are


I make no racist insults whatsoever. I am sorry if yurt is insulted by his heritage. It certainly wouldn't insult me

[Sitarro]

because I believe in God and I believe that the western wall of Solomon's temple is a holy spot and I felt that God might take note of the fact that I made the effort to go there and to respect the tradition surrounding his temple.

So the same GOD that created this universe, is responsible for all that is great around us, come by that wall everynight and picks up the notes to read later???? You believe Santa Claus reads the notes written to him too?

[retiredman]

So the same GOD that created this universe, is responsible for all that is great around us, come by that wall everynight and picks up the notes to read later???? You believe Santa Claus reads the notes written to him too?


Q1: yes, although "his" method for "reading" them is a bit more streamlined than you would suggest
Q2: no

[Yurt]

it's sad that you would dishonor your heritage. :(

stop lying, i am not dishonoring anything, let alone my heritage. your slanderous and gratitious insults are pathetic.

[retiredman]

stop lying, i am not dishonoring anything, let alone my heritage. your slanderous and gratitious insults are pathetic.


my guess is, your grandmother might think differently.

[Kathianne]

my guess is, your grandmother might think differently.

You couldn't possibly know his grandmother's take on anything. It's more than possible that he never knew her. Even if did, he was 'Jewish' on father's side, which meant, not Jewish unless by choice. You are again baiting, this is a nice warning.

Yurt, please, don't respond to the baiting.

[retiredman]

You couldn't possibly know his grandmother's take on anything. It's more than possible that he never knew her. Even if did, he was 'Jewish' on father's side, which meant, not Jewish unless by choice. You are again baiting, this is a nice warning.

Yurt, please, don't respond to the baiting.

It would seem to me that either yurt is lying, or he knew his grandmother quite well. I quite frankly cannot possibly imagine a practicing Jew who would make light of the western wall. And I also doubt that yurt's grandmother would say that a man she has never met was a homosexual. Why do posts like THIS below never seen to come under the same sort of scrutiny that you always give MINE, I wonder? Fair and balanced??? I think not.

my jewish grandmother thought the wall a joke. and oh yeah, when we were shopping for "jewish" food, you know hebrew national...., she made sure to shout out the brand of "links" i was to get.

oh, and she says you are gay and to stop it, just stop it, stop it now......

[red states rule]

It would seem to me that either yurt is lying, or he knew his grandmother quite well. I quite frankly cannot possibly imagine a practicing Jew who would make light of the western wall. And I also doubt that yurt's grandmother would say that a man she has never met was a homosexual. Why do posts like THIS below never seen to come under the same sort of scrutiny that you always give MINE, I wonder? Fair and balanced??? I think not.

Another thread bites the dust, as the boards #1 crybaby starts his whining and throwing another temper tanturm

[Yurt]

You couldn't possibly know his grandmother's take on anything. It's more than possible that he never knew her. Even if did, he was 'Jewish' on father's side, which meant, not Jewish unless by choice. You are again baiting, this is a nice warning.

Yurt, please, don't respond to the baiting.

respond to my pm...i am not allowed to discuss mod issues on the board

[Yurt]

It would seem to me that either yurt is lying, or he knew his grandmother quite well. I quite frankly cannot possibly imagine a practicing Jew who would make light of the western wall. And I also doubt that yurt's grandmother would say that a man she has never met was a homosexual. Why do posts like THIS below never seen to come under the same sort of scrutiny that you always give MINE, I wonder? Fair and balanced??? I think not.

you can't imagine, so it of course must not be true :poke:

do not disparage my heritage or my family, go it. good.

[retiredman]

so you are saying that your post #104 was truthful?

[Kathianne]

respond to my pm...i am not allowed to discuss mod issues on the board

True that. Interestingly enough, for the most part you are who I agree with. Doesn't change the problem of baiting others.

[Yurt]

True that. Interestingly enough, for the most part you are who I agree with. Doesn't change the problem of baiting others.

i'm not allowed to discuss this on the board, but you are....interesting...i moved it up the chain

[Kathianne]

i'm not allowed to discuss this on the board, but you are....interesting...i moved it up the chain

Move on.

[retiredman]

again yurt...simple question, was your post #104 a truthful post?

[Yurt]

Move on.

i did

[Yurt]

again yurt...simple question, was your post #104 a truthful post?

stupid question....

oh my, mfm caught me a lie, i lied i made the whole thing up :poke:

get real

[red states rule]

http://www.strangepolitics.com/images/content/140876.jpg

[retiredman]

stupid question....

oh my, mfm caught me a lie, i lied i made the whole thing up :poke:

get real

are you suggesting that part of 104 was accurate and part was not? If so, I assume that the part about your grandmother calling me a fag was the fictitious part because, to the best of my knowledge, I have never met your grandmother and I am not a fag... so that maybe means the part about your grandmother thinking the western wall is a "joke" was true?

[Dilloduck]

True that. Interestingly enough, for the most part you are who I agree with. Doesn't change the problem of baiting others.

Why are you refereeing this? Is it now illegal to give people shit on this board and respond in kind when it happens to you ?

[Kathianne]

i did

I know and am not taken totally by surprise. You get it.

[crin63]

I'm absolutely convinced that Jews are God's chosen people but I'm sorry the wall, is just a wall. Albeit a great piece of history, but objects are not holy, they are just objects. Traditions do not make something holy either.

If God wanted us to fold up pieces of paper and stick it in a crevice He would've said so in the Bible.

[retiredman]

I'm absolutely convinced that Jews are God's chosen people but I'm sorry the wall, is just a wall. Albeit a great piece of history, but objects are not holy, they are just objects. Traditions do not make something holy either.

If God wanted us to fold up pieces of paper and stick it in a crevice He would've said so in the Bible.


I am glad of your absolute conviction. Have you ever BEEN to the western wall of Solomon's temple?

Oh...is the shroud of Turin holy?

How about the bones of St. Peter which are under the altar at his basilica in Rome?

How about the chains that bound him in the prisons of Rome that are now on the altar at St.Peter in Chains church in Rome? Are THEY holy?

I, personally, would say "yes" to all three of those questions... And 99.99% of all the world's Jews (yurt's grandmother excluded) would say yes to that question if asked about the western wall.

[crin63]

I am glad of your absolute conviction. Have you ever BEEN to the western wall of Solomon's temple?

Oh...is the shroud of Turin holy?

How about the bones of St. Peter which are under the altar at his basilica in Rome?

How about the chains that bound him in the prisons of Rome that are now on the altar at St.Peter in Chains church in Rome? Are THEY holy?

I, personally, would say "yes" to all three of those questions... And 99.99% of all the world's Jews (yurt's grandmother excluded) would say yes to that question if asked about the western wall.


I will be going next spring but no I haven't been. It won't change anything by my having been there. Its still just a wall. In all likelihood a marvelous wall to look at but still only a wall, nothing holy.

How do you know they are Peters bones? So what if they are, it doesn't make them holy. They are only bones. Chains are just chains, theres nothing about them that makes them holy. Theres been a forest worth of trees sold off as genuine pieces of the cross that Christ was crucified on.

No none of those things are holy. The shroud of turin is just someones burial cloth. Jesus was wrapped and had a face napkin on him, its not his.

All those relics are great for making money for the church of Rome though.

God is holy, His word is holy and men can be holy but stuff is not holy.

[retiredman]

I will be going next spring but no I haven't been. It won't change anything by my having been there. Its still just a wall. In all likelihood a marvelous wall to look at but still only a wall, nothing holy.

How do you know they are Peters bones? So what if they are, it doesn't make them holy. They are only bones. Chains are just chains, theres nothing about them that makes them holy. Theres been a forest worth of trees sold off as genuine pieces of the cross that Christ was crucified on.

No none of those things are holy. The shroud of turin is just someones burial cloth. Jesus was wrapped and had a face napkin on him, its not his.

All those relics are great for making money for the church of Rome though.

God is holy, His word is holy and men can be holy but stuff is not holy.


we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Dilloduck]

I am glad of your absolute conviction. Have you ever BEEN to the western wall of Solomon's temple?

Oh...is the shroud of Turin holy?

How about the bones of St. Peter which are under the altar at his basilica in Rome?

How about the chains that bound him in the prisons of Rome that are now on the altar at St.Peter in Chains church in Rome? Are THEY holy?

I, personally, would say "yes" to all three of those questions... And 99.99% of all the world's Jews (yurt's grandmother excluded) would say yes to that question if asked about the western wall.

One doesn't have to be anywhere to have a valid conviction about it's "holiness". I know you like to pretend it that if one have been somewhere they somehow have greater wisdom about it than others but that's really pretty much bullshit.

[retiredman]

One doesn't have to be anywhere to have a valid conviction about it's "holiness". I know you like to pretend it that if one have been somewhere they somehow have greater wisdom about it than others but that's really pretty much bullshit.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree as well.

[Yurt]

do you have scripture to back up your beliefs mfm? do you know what a graven image is?

[retiredman]

do you have scripture to back up your beliefs mfm? do you know what a graven image is?

as I have previously stated, the sanctity of the western wall is discussed in rabbinical texts dating back a millenium. And yes, I do know what a graven image is. why do you ask?

[Yurt]

those teachings are not scripture...i know they are revered in the jewish faith and they do have value as they are usually the words of great learned men, however, their standing is not equal to scripture. so you have no scripture to support your belief...interesting.

do you think the wall comes close to a graven image? of course you don't, why not?

[retiredman]

those teachings are not scripture...i know they are revered in the jewish faith and they do have value as they are usually the words of great learned men, however, their standing is not equal to scripture. so you have no scripture to support your belief...interesting.

do you think the wall comes close to a graven image? of course you don't, why not?


If you know that they are revered in the jewish faith, why do you disrespect the act of following them?

Of COURSE the wall is not a graven image. It is the western wall of Solomon's temple which was the closest wall to the ark of the covenant, the holiest of holies... it is not an IMAGE of anything. It IS what it IS.

[Yurt]

If you know that they are revered in the jewish faith, why do you disrespect the act of following them?

Of COURSE the wall is not a graven image. It is the western wall of Solomon's temple which was the closest wall to the ark of the covenant, the holiest of holies... it is not an IMAGE of anything. It IS what it IS.

if you are not going to offer honest debate, then don't respond. just because i don't agree with the jewish writings DOES NOT MEAN i disrespect them...why is your wife not in a hijab mfm...

no, the wall is not original, there is possibly only one stone that is, do you know that the muslims added the majority of the wall, that beyond the first four layers?

[retiredman]

if you are not going to offer honest debate, then don't respond. just because i don't agree with the jewish writings DOES NOT MEAN i disrespect them...why is your wife not in a hijab mfm...

no, the wall is not original, there is possibly only one stone that is, do you know that the muslims added the majority of the wall, that beyond the first four layers?

so you buy the muslim story but not the jewish one. I am sure your grandmother would be SO proud of you!

YOu already have stated your disrespect for the jewish writings...don't try to weasel away from your own words: "...you leave a piece of paper in a wall that is quite public...*shrug*"

[Yurt]

so you buy the muslim story but not the jewish one. I am sure your grandmother would be SO proud of you!

YOu already have stated your disrespect for the jewish writings...don't try to weasel away from your own words: "...you leave a piece of paper in a wall that is quite public...*shrug*"


i buy the muslim story?? how you got that is puzzling, but who cares....

that is your opinion and you are wrong. just because i don't agree with something does not mean i disrespect it. stop lying and yes you are lying by continually insisting that i am disrespecting the religion and its traditions. ever try to have inter faith dialogue with other religions...guess what, just because you don't adhere or believe their faiths or traditions, does not mean you disrespect them.

got it. good. i seriously can't believe you are a preacher.

[retiredman]

i buy the muslim story?? how you got that is puzzling, but who cares....

that is your opinion and you are wrong. just because i don't agree with something does not mean i disrespect it. stop lying and yes you are lying by continually insisting that i am disrespecting the religion and its traditions. ever try to have inter faith dialogue with other religions...guess what, just because you don't adhere or believe their faiths or traditions, does not mean you disrespect them.

got it. good. i seriously can't believe you are a preacher.


the Jews claim that the wall is the western wall of solomon's temple. you buy the muslim version in that only the first course of stones is from solomon's temple and the rest was put there by muslims.

Again. I am a Christian, but I would NEVER disrespect my jewish brethren by suggesting that their rituals at the western wall were nothing anymore significant than"...you leave a piece of paper in a wall that is quite public...*shrug*"


I seriously can't believe that you are a high school graduate.

[Yurt]

its not the muslim version it is the historical truth that the muslims built the wall up when they controlled jerusalem...are you dense? are you saying the muslims added nothign to the wall, never controlled jerusalem....

mfm, why doesn't your wife wear the hijab? why don't you pray five times a day toward mecca, why don't you kiss the black rock on the kaba?

[retiredman]

its not the muslim version it is the historical truth that the muslims built the wall up when they controlled jerusalem...are you dense? are you saying the muslims added nothign to the wall, never controlled jerusalem....

mfm, why doesn't your wife wear the hijab? why don't you pray five times a day toward mecca, why don't you kiss the black rock on the kaba?

because I don't adhere to the religious practices of other faiths does not mean that I do not respect them...and you will never hear me make light of them either.

[Yurt]

of course, right for you but not me...

do you agree that women should be forbidden from praying at the wall?

[actsnoblemartin]

:popcorn: