Is Now the Time to Begin Withdrawal from Iraq?

[5stringJeff]

In YOUR opinion, given the current events in Iraq, with Prime Minister al-Maliki agreeing with Bush on a "general time horizon" for withdrawal of American troops, and with al-Maliki's not-quite-an-endorsement of Obama's 16-month withdrawal timetable, is now the right time to begin withdrawing troops from Iraq?

This is not about political platforms or Presidential candidates' opinions. I'm looking for YOUR opinion. Should we or should we not, in your opinion, begin withdrawing troops from Iraq?

[5stringJeff]

My opinion is this: the Iraqis have indicated that they think they're ready to take over the role of defending their own country, and they have told both Bush and Obama that they want us to begin the process of withdrawing. So we should start the process.

[Yurt]

yes, phased withdrawal. now that we have completed our mission and not left before the job was done, it is time to head home. in my opinion, an immediate all out withdrawal will create instability, whereas, a phased withdrawal allows for more stability as things continue to progress.

the time "horizon" is the best strategy, not an ultimatum, for none of us can predict the future.

[glockmail]

Obama is right- withdraw over a 1-2 year timeline, depending on what is happening on the ground. Apparently if you cahnge your mind enough you are bound to be correct. Funny how all of a sudden its his idea though, and his plan all along.

[Yurt]

Obama is right- withdraw over a 1-2 year timeline, depending on what is happening on the ground. Apparently if you cahnge your mind enough you are bound to be correct. Funny how all of a sudden its his idea though, and his plan all along.

the surge will not work, it will make things worse

- obama (paraphrase) 2006

[red states rule]

The guidelines have always been when the government of Iraq tells the US they can stand alone - we stand down

[April15]

We should have never been there to begin with! Maybe after a successful campaign in Afghanistan with the capture of Osama Bin Laden, Iraq but Iran would have been and still is the prime target.

[red states rule]

We should have never been there to begin with! Maybe after a successful campaign in Afghanistan with the capture of Osama Bin Laden, Iraq but Iran would have been and still is the prime target.

I understand how you guys feel. After years of screaming the war was lost, the troops have kicked ass and handed you all of you a huge shitburger to feast on

True to form, the messiah, know as Obama, gave little credit to the troops when confronted with the success being made in Iraq

[April15]

I understand how you guys feel. After years of screaming the war was lost, the troops have kicked ass and handed you all of you a huge shitburger to feast on

True to form, the messiah, know as Obama, gave little credit to the troops when confronted with the success being made in IraqYou know nothing about military strategy and conflict.
Iraq had no military "prize" other than bush vindicating his fathers refusal to enter Bagdhad.

[red states rule]

You know nothing about military strategy and conflict.
Iraq had no military "prize" other than bush vindicating his fathers refusal to enter Bhagdad.

I know Dems were very happy to tell us how the war was lost, and now they are chocking on their crow

Now even the messiah, known as Obama, has done a flip flop on his Iraq policy - and it is pissing off some of his supporters

The Dems had only one military strategy, and it was being led by the messiah

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/wteach/surrender/SMObamaCPUSA.jpg

[retiredman]

so...RSR...how come you didn't VOTE in this thread's poll?:lol:

[Gaffer]

We can begin withdrawl as the iraqi's take over and prove they can handle it. We also have to be ready to step back in if the iraqi's show they can't truly handle it yet.

I'll be glad to talk military strategy with you any time april15.

[retiredman]

We can begin withdrawl as the iraqi's take over and prove they can handle it. We also have to be ready to step back in if the iraqi's show they can't truly handle it yet.

I'll be glad to talk military strategy with you any time april15.

what will we do if, after staying there for two or three or four more years, training and training and retraining the Iraqi army and police force, we leave...and then the well trained Iraqi army devolves into two well trained sectarian militias that start fighting one another?

[red states rule]

We can begin withdrawl as the iraqi's take over and prove they can handle it. We also have to be ready to step back in if the iraqi's show they can't truly handle it yet.

I'll be glad to talk military strategy with you any time april15.

Which was Pres Bush's intention all along

[Yurt]

Which was Pres Bush's intention all along

exactly

the dems attitude about this war has been failure from day one, failure for the surge, failure if we leave because we all know that for a fact the sunnis and the shias will be at each others throats as soon as we leave, so might as well leave now...

while i have no doubt the sunnis and shias want to kill each other, to say that, well, what difference does it make how long we stay, because our iraq goal will be defeated because they must necessarily engage each other in war as soon as the US leaves. i for one hold out hope, a mere glimmer, that this doesn't occur should we continue with Bush's plan and strategy by now utilizing phased withdrawal's with no calendar date, rather an events on the ground, or "horizon", date.

[Gaffer]

Which was Pres Bush's intention all along

Yep, and it is taking a lot longer because they want to make sure the country doesn't devolve into a civil war with two well trained groups fighting each other. It takes time to get them to think nationalistically rather than tribally. And once we leave what they do is their business.

[red states rule]

exactly

the dems attitude about this war has been failure from day one, failure for the surge, failure if we leave because we all know that for a fact the sunnis and the shias will be at each others throats as soon as we leave, so might as well leave now...

while i have no doubt the sunnis and shias want to kill each other, to say that, well, what difference does it make how long we stay, because our iraq goal will be defeated because they must necessarily engage each other in war as soon as the US leaves. i for one hold out hope, a mere glimmer, that this doesn't occur should we continue with Bush's plan and strategy by now utilizing phased withdrawal's with no calendar date, rather an events on the ground, or "horizon", date.

Yurt, the only thing Dems care about is POWER. They see their way to power as investing in the failure of the US economy and failure in Iraq

They slimed the troops, openly said we were losing, and demanded surrender. Those are facts. They blew it on this, the same way they are blowing it with opposition to drilling and increasing the supply of oil as to lower gas prices

Dems want misery for as many people as possible

[retiredman]

exactly

the dems attitude about this war has been failure from day one, failure for the surge, failure if we leave because we all know that for a fact the sunnis and the shias will be at each others throats as soon as we leave, so might as well leave now...

while i have no doubt the sunnis and shias want to kill each other, to say that, well, what difference does it make how long we stay, because our iraq goal will be defeated because they must necessarily engage each other in war as soon as the US leaves. i for one hold out hope, a mere glimmer, that this doesn't occur should we continue with Bush's plan and strategy by now utilizing phased withdrawal's with no calendar date, rather an events on the ground, or "horizon", date.

what about having American infidel troops on the ground in Iraq for some period of time longer than they have been do you think will cause sunnis and shiites in Iraq to NOT want to kill one another? Or is it all just crossing our fingers and holding on to that glimmer of hope that people that have hated each other for a millenium will miraculously agree to have a big group hug and create a multicultural jeffersonian democrachy simply because our troops have shown them the light?

[red states rule]

what about having American infidel troops on the ground in Iraq for some period of time longer than they have been do you think will cause sunnis and shiites in Iraq to NOT want to kill one another? Or is it all just crossing our fingers and holding on to that glimmer of hope that people that have hated each other for a millenium will miraculously agree to have a big group hug and create a multicultural jeffersonian democrachy simply because our troops have shown them the light?

Still rooting for defeat in Iraq I see. Now our troops our infidels?

[Yurt]

what do you really care? you have been calling for the troops removal for years, before we completed the mission, when the terrorists were defeating our mission....and if you look at the facts on the ground, from what i read, not all of the violence is sectarian, that is why the shias and sunnis have come together, to rid their country of the terrorists.....that is a big thing, they are uniting to rid their country of AQ.

[retiredman]

Still rooting for defeat in Iraq I see. Now our troops our infidels?

do you think they are muslims?

[retiredman]

what do you really care? you have been calling for the troops removal for years, before we completed the mission, when the terrorists were defeating our mission....and if you look at the facts on the ground, from what i read, not all of the violence is sectarian, that is why the shias and sunnis have come together, to rid their country of the terrorists.....that is a big thing, they are uniting to rid their country of AQ.
why can't you answer the question?

[Yurt]

why can't you answer the question?

why can't you answer mine, good lord, nit picker

[red states rule]

do you think they are muslims?

Thanks again for calling the troops infidels

[Yurt]

do you think they are muslims?

hypocrite, couldn't answer that question could you...you see, sometimes you need a question in order to answer or better answer someone :poke:

i can't believe you called our troops infidels, at first i thought you were merely saying what they think, but now you don't defend it, you have problems calling our troops infidels

[retiredman]

Thanks again for calling the troops infidels

in·fi·del [in-fi-dl, -del]
–noun 1. Religion. (in Muslim use) a person who does not accept the Islamic faith; kaffir.

it is not a term of insult at all. We are an army of infidels in an arab islamic state.

Christians are considered infidels by Muslims.... Muslims are considered infidels by Christians. it is a religious term, not a derogatory one.

[red states rule]

hypocrite, couldn't answer that question could you...you see, sometimes you need a question in order to answer or better answer someone :poke:

i can't believe you called our troops infidels, at first i thought you were merely saying what they think, but now you don't defend it, you have problems calling our troops infidels

He offered a lame excuse on my thread on Obama would still oppose the thread. I am sure he will post it here as well

As I told him, every once in awhile libs slip up and actually say what they feel. He did in such an insulting way toward the troops

[red states rule]

in·fi·del [in-fi-dl, -del]
–noun 1. Religion. (in Muslim use) a person who does not accept the Islamic faith; kaffir.

it is not a term of insult at all. We are an army of infidels in an arab islamic state.

You are such a slimy SOB to call them that. Is that another sermon topic preacher man?

[avatar4321]

i dont know the conditions on the ground, but if the reports we have been hearing from Iraq are accurate, then i see no problem with a phased withdrawal of the troops.

[red states rule]

i dont know the conditions on the ground, but if the reports we have been hearing from Iraq are accurate, then i see no problem with a phased withdrawal of the troops.

Again, when Iraq can stand on its own - we step down

That was always our intention

[retiredman]

You are such a slimy SOB to call them that. Is that another sermon topic preacher man?


again...infidel is not a pejorative term, it is a religious term. I will readily admit that, to the islamic world, I am an infidel.

[red states rule]

again...infidel is not a pejorative term, it is a religious term. I will readily admit that, to the islamic world, I am an infidel.

Your words games will not save your ass this time. Everything I have said about you - you just proved they were true

You do not give a damn about the troops, or your country. Only your party and power

[retiredman]

Your words games will not save your ass this time. Everything I have said about you - you just proved they were true

You do not give a damn about the troops, or your country. Only your party and power


bullshit. I care deeply about our troops and about my country. I always have. I always will.

[red states rule]

bullshit. I care deeply about our troops and about my country. I always have. I always will.

You show it so well by calling them infidels. Right out of the mold have Harry "the war is lost" Reid; and Sen Dick Turbin who compared them to Nazis

[retiredman]

You show it so well by calling them infidels. Right out of the mold have Harry "the war is lost" Reid; and Sen Dick Turbin who compared them to Nazis
again...the term "infidel" is NOT a pejorative word. It is a religious term. I GAVE you the definitions. In Iraq, our troops are considered to be an occupying army of infidels. that is fact.

[PostmodernProphet]

again...the term "infidel" is NOT a pejorative word.
are you under the impression that the word is used in a favorable sense anywhere?......

[red states rule]

again...the term "infidel" is NOT a pejorative word. It is a religious term. I GAVE you the definitions. In Iraq, our troops are considered to be an occupying army of infidels. that is fact.

and your "support" and "love" of country is being shown again

Like most anti war libs you open;y show your true feelings, and you have done so once again

Where are you in this pic from an anti war protest MFM?

http://www.capveterans.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/fuck_the_troops3.jpg

[retiredman]

gratuitous insults of my patriotism.... pathetic.

[red states rule]

gratuitous insults of my patriotism.... pathetic.

What patriotism? You have none after you finally showed once and for all your true colors tonight

[retiredman]

What patriotism? You have none after you finally showed once and for all your true colors tonight

you are crazy. your lack of knowledge as to the vocabulary of the english language is not my problem. Infidel is not an insult. It is a descriptive religious term. In arab islamic countries, the term refers to anyone who is not an adherent of Islam. That would be US.

Get serious...please?

[red states rule]

you are crazy. your lack of knowledge as to the vocabulary of the english language is not my problem. Infidel is not an insult. It is a descriptive religious term. In arab islamic countries, the term refers to anyone who is not an adherent of Islam. That would be US.

Get serious...please?

I am serious, and you are a hack who smears and insults the troops for political reasons

You are a pathetic old bastard

[retiredman]

I am serious, and you are a hack who smears and insults the troops for political reasons

You are a pathetic old bastard


I have never smeared or insulted our troops in any way. never.

and I may be an old bastard...don't you wish you'd be given the chance to be one?

[Yurt]

you are crazy. your lack of knowledge as to the vocabulary of the english language is not my problem. Infidel is not an insult. It is a descriptive religious term. In arab islamic countries, the term refers to anyone who is not an adherent of Islam. That would be US.

Get serious...please?

it is used as an insult by many, many muslims... regardless, there is no excuse for you to call our troops infidels...if they call us that, who cares, for you to concede to islamic power by agreeing that indeed we are infidel, is disgusting.

further, you are flat out wrong that our troops are considered infidels if they are christians or have faith. they are kuffar/or kafir, NOT infidels. you don't know squat about islam.

[retiredman]

it is used as an insult by many, many muslims... regardless, there is no excuse for you to call our troops infidels...if they call us that, who cares, for you to concede to islamic power by agreeing that indeed we are infidel, is disgusting.

further, you are flat out wrong that our troops are considered infidels if they are christians or have faith. they are kuffar/or kafir, NOT infidels. you don't know squat about islam.

where have I EVER "conceded to Islamic power"? I merely pointed out that most Iraqis consider american troops to be infidels. It is far from disgusting, but, leave it to YOU to make some major deal out of this. THIS issue is really of primary importance to the debate on American foreign policy, isn't it?

go back to counting angels on that pin. really

[Yurt]

where have I EVER "conceded to Islamic power"? I merely pointed out that most Iraqis consider american troops to be infidels. It is far from disgusting, but, leave it to YOU to make some major deal out of this. THIS issue is really of primary importance to the debate on American foreign policy, isn't it?

go back to counting angels on that pin. really

can't handle someone questioning you calling our troops infidels, then stay off the board cry baby

[red states rule]

can't handle someone questioning you calling our troops infidels, then stay off the board cry baby

MFM must love Ted Rall

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2003/1746602054_430f8f69bc_o.jpg

[retiredman]

can't handle someone questioning you calling our troops infidels, then stay off the board cry baby
I can handle any sophomoric irrelevant insult you can toss my way. I ain't cryin' a bit. If you don't know how muslims use the word infidel, then that is YOUR problem, not mine.

[Yurt]

I can handle any sophomoric irrelevant insult you can toss my way. I ain't cryin' a bit. If you don't know how muslims use the word infidel, then that is YOUR problem, not mine.

what insult? you do know they use kuffar/kafir and that infidel means NON christian or one who doesn't believe :poke:

again, if you can't handle it, feel free to leave :salute:

[retiredman]

what insult? you do know they use kuffar/kafir and that infidel means NON christian or one who doesn't believe :poke:

again, if you can't handle it, feel free to leave :salute:

I KNOW for a fact, that many muslims use infidel and kafir interchangeably. I have heard them speak to ME about this very topic. Your practical knowledge on the subject comes from where? your jewish father?

[Yurt]

I KNOW for a fact, that many muslims use infidel and kafir interchangeably. I have heard them speak to ME about this very topic. Your practical knowledge on the subject comes from where? your jewish father?

had to bring family into this....pathetic preacher

too bad you can't debate like a rational adult, "preacher"

[retiredman]

had to bring family into this....pathetic preacher

too bad you can't debate like a rational adult, "preacher"

I think that it is a reasonable assumption that your father may very well have given you some background on semitic cultures and religions.

much like MY father gave me background on attorneys.

[Yurt]

I think that it is a reasonable assumption that your father may very well have given you some background on semitic cultures and religions.

much like MY father gave me background on attorneys.

you're such a hypocrite, pathetic:


YURT
so you're saying it was not an assumption? or are you? so ambiguous, your father taught you well....

the rest of your post is nonsense...


MFM
I am saying, as I said at first, that namvet's statement was a baseless opinion.

but one you obviously would cling to, given your clear enmity for all things Obama.

and do us both a big favor and keep my father out of it.

1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

[retiredman]

your post was sarcastic about me and my father. My post was a reasonable question as to a very possible source for your knowledge of muslims.

no hypocrisy whatsoever.

but DO keep making this about you and me and not about the issues. you do it so well.

[5stringJeff]

RSR, MFM, Yurt:

Leave the board-wide feud out of this thread. Thank you.

[5stringJeff]

The guidelines have always been when the government of Iraq tells the US they can stand alone - we stand down


We can begin withdrawl as the iraqi's take over and prove they can handle it. We also have to be ready to step back in if the iraqi's show they can't truly handle it yet.

I'll be glad to talk military strategy with you any time april15.

Every report I have heard coming out of Iraq for the last couple of weeks says that the Iraqis are now willing and able to stand alone. So do you think it's now time to begin withdrawal?

[retiredman]

Every report I have heard coming out of Iraq for the last couple of weeks says that the Iraqis are now willing and able to stand alone. So do you think it's now time to begin withdrawal?

I DO....long PAST time. Afghanistan is starting to come unglued and we need to be there, not in Iraq.

For my money, we have ALWAYS needed to be there and not in Iraq.

[glockmail]

.....

http://www.capveterans.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/fuck_the_troops3.jpg

Whenever I see this picture I swear that the two kids holding the "Fuck" sign are my two nephews. My brother and especially his wife are liberals bordering on commies and their oldest son is an Anarchist- and really tall and skinny. This looks like the center of the retail district in Boston, with the Old North Church in the background.

Do you have any details about this photo?

[red states rule]

Whenever I see this picture I swear that the two kids holding the "Fuck" sign are my two nephews. My brother and especially his wife are liberals bordering on commies and their oldest son is an Anarchist- and really tall and skinny. This looks like the center of the retail district in Boston, with the Old North Church in the background.

Do you have any details about this photo?

No I don't. The website has other pics showing how the left "support" the troops

I saw a report last night how anti war idiots spit on a vet because he told them his pro Iraq views

How typical of the left

[retiredman]

No I don't. The website has other pics showing how the left "support" the troops

I saw a report last night how anti war idiots spit on a vet because he told them his pro Iraq views

How typical of the left


those are anarchists.... certainly not anyone from the "left".

[red states rule]

those are anarchists.... certainly not anyone from the "left".

There is a difference? :laugh2:

[retiredman]

There is a difference? :laugh2:

I thought you said you understood politics?

I thought you said that folks on the left wanted BIG government?

I guess you don't know that anarchists are for NO government.

Maybe you should read more and learn more and stop posting stupid pictures and then making comments like this one which confirm how little you understand about the political spectrum.

[red states rule]

I thought you said you understood politics?

I thought you said that folks on the left wanted BIG government?

I guess you don't know that anarchists are for NO government.

Maybe you should read more and learn more and stop posting stupid pictures and then making comments like this one which confirm how little you understand about the political spectrum.

The left and anarchists hate America and the troops - that is their common ground to build a relationship

[retiredman]

The left and anarchists hate America and the troops - that is their common ground to build a relationship

I thought you said there was not a difference between them?

flip flopping now, are we?

I am on the left and I love my country and support the troops. Most every democrat I know feels the same way.

[glockmail]

I thought you said there was not a difference between them?

flip flopping now, are we?

I am on the left and I love my country and support the troops. Most every democrat I know feels the same way. Keyword here is "most", which technically means "more than 50%".

[red states rule]

Keyword here is "most", which technically means "more than 50%".

It is a shame the number is not higher. That is why the military votes in huge numbers for Republicans

[namvet]

in·fi·del [in-fi-dl, -del]
–noun 1. Religion. (in Muslim use) a person who does not accept the Islamic faith; kaffir.

it is not a term of insult at all. We are an army of infidels in an arab islamic state.

Christians are considered infidels by Muslims.... Muslims are considered infidels by Christians. it is a religious term, not a derogatory one.


We are an army of infidels in an arab islamic state.


so you freely admit your a muslim terrorist. thanks for dropping you pants and bending over the table. don't mind if I ram it up your ass and break if off. terrorist man from maine. who just admitted he approves of mass murder. help plan 9-11 did ya??? jump up and down with joy??? got pics of Bin laden on the wall ??? Hitler and stalin???? skull and bones to walk on. murder your entire family??? huh??? kill em all??? how many queers do you rape in a night??? you can tell us.
MEN don't live in maine. only aids infected faggots like you do. whats it gonna be???? muslim or terrorist from maine????

[retiredman]

Keyword here is "most", which technically means "more than 50%".

I can't speak for all democrats just like you cannot speak for all republicans. I know that I support the troops.

[red states rule]

I can't speak for all democrats just like you cannot speak for all republicans. I know that I support the troops.

But the troops on which side?

[retiredman]

so you freely admit your a muslim terrorist. thanks for dropping you pants and bending over the table. don't mind if I ram it up your ass and break if off. terrorist man from maine. who just admitted he approves of mass murder. help plan 9-11 did ya??? jump up and down with joy??? got pics of Bin laden on the wall ??? Hitler and stalin???? skull and bones to walk on. murder your entire family??? huh??? kill em all??? how many queers do you rape in a night??? you can tell us.
MEN don't live in maine. only aids infected faggots like you do. whats it gonna be???? muslim or terrorist from maine????


reading comprehension issues? didn't you use the GI bill to go back and get your GED?

you are just plain weird!:lol:

[retiredman]

But the troops on which side?

American troops, of course. please stop with the lame insults, RSR. try to discuss issues like an adult. I am certainly trying to do that with you.

[namvet]

reading comprehension issues? didn't you use the GI bill to go back and get your GED?

you are just plain weird!:lol:

thats beats a faggot with a murder complex

[retiredman]

thats beats a faggot with a murder complex

that would not describe me, my friend. sorry.

[namvet]

that would not describe me, my friend. sorry.

to a T faggot

[retiredman]

to a T faggot

my wife and kids would tend to disagree, my friend.

why not dial back on the insults, OK?

[red states rule]

my wife and kids would tend to disagree, my friend.

why not dial back on the insults, OK?

Try that one with former Gov of NJ James McGreevey's wife and family :laugh2:

[namvet]

my wife and kids would tend to disagree, my friend.

why not dial back on the insults, OK?

then stop fuckin' you camel and get to it. im the infidel here muslim. come on. get some.

[namvet]

my wife and kids would tend to disagree, my friend.

why not dial back on the insults, OK?

im NOT your god damned friend. im your worst fuckin nightmare !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[retiredman]

I rarely have nightmares, but when I do, trust me, you are nowhere to be found. Do you want to dial back on the insults or is this all I can expect from you?

[namvet]

I rarely have nightmares, but when I do, trust me, you are nowhere to be found. Do you want to dial back on the insults or is this all I can expect from you?

you've had your last warning !!!!!!!!! you shit on those troops your shitting on me. and I WILL take a giant shit on you. got it ???!!!! what comes around goes around and comes right back in your face. leave it be.

[retiredman]

you've had your last warning !!!!!!!!! you shit on those troops your shitting on me. and I WILL take a giant shit on you. got it ???!!!! what comes around goes around and comes right back in your face. leave it be.

don't threaten me. and quit insulting me or I'll just put you on ignore.

[actsnoblemartin]

hmmm


what about having American infidel

Im not understanding the reason, you bring up the word infidel. Would you care to explain it to me, im listening

troops on the ground in Iraq for some period of time longer than they have been do you think will cause sunnis and shiites in Iraq to NOT want to kill one another?


I agree, the sunshits, and shitheads, have been slitting each others throats for almost 1500 years, and we wont change that mentality.

Or is it all just crossing our fingers and holding on to that glimmer of hope that people that have hated each other for a millenium will miraculously agree to have a big group hug and create a multicultural jeffersonian democrachy simply because our troops have shown them the light?


I have no faith in islam, or muslims. The second we leave, forget it

[glockmail]

Rip off his head and shit down his neck. :pee:

[actsnoblemartin]

Enlighten me a bit more on this issue, so i dont put my foot in my mouth before i speak.


what do you really care? you have been calling for the troops removal for years, before we completed the mission, when the terrorists were defeating our mission....and if you look at the facts on the ground, from what i read, not all of the violence is sectarian, that is why the shias and sunnis have come together, to rid their country of the terrorists.....that is a big thing, they are uniting to rid their country of AQ.

[actsnoblemartin]

do you think they are muslims?

what does that mean?

[red states rule]

Rip off his head and shit down his neck. :pee:

That is to good for him

[actsnoblemartin]

I wish you would have made this more clear in your post.

if you would have said, the muslims see us as infidels or the iraqis see us as infidels, it would have been a lot clearer what you meant.

No disrespect intended.

so, im right to assume you are NOT calling our troops infideals, correct?

I think you deserve the benefit of the doubt, to atleast explain your motivation on this.

I do take one issue though, I dont believe christians consider muslims infidels, i am not even sure if that word is in the bible, and i believe while infidel may be technically speaking a religious word, it is still derogatory and led to many murders committed by muslims


in·fi·del [in-fi-dl, -del]
–noun 1. Religion. (in Muslim use) a person who does not accept the Islamic faith; kaffir.

it is not a term of insult at all. We are an army of infidels in an arab islamic state.

Christians are considered infidels by Muslims.... Muslims are considered infidels by Christians. it is a religious term, not a derogatory one.

[actsnoblemartin]

manfrommaine, do you support statements from some of the left that are dergatory towards our troops such as john murtha's comments and dick durbin's comments, both un-true, and both putting our troops in harms way.

I would like to know if you do or do not support their statements, and similiar statements

[actsnoblemartin]

bringing yurt's family into this, not classy :slap:


I KNOW for a fact, that many muslims use infidel and kafir interchangeably. I have heard them speak to ME about this very topic. Your practical knowledge on the subject comes from where? your jewish father?

[actsnoblemartin]

him being a preacher has nothing to do with this


had to bring family into this....pathetic preacher

too bad you can't debate like a rational adult, "preacher"

[actsnoblemartin]

him being an attorney has nothing to do with this


I think that it is a reasonable assumption that your father may very well have given you some background on semitic cultures and religions.

much like MY father gave me background on attorneys.

[actsnoblemartin]

RSR, MFM, Yurt:

Leave the board-wide feud out of this thread. Thank you.

:clap:

:laugh2:

:salute:

[OCA]

I understand how you guys feel. After years of screaming the war was lost, the troops have kicked ass and handed you all of you a huge shitburger to feast on

True to form, the messiah, know as Obama, gave little credit to the troops when confronted with the success being made in Iraq

The troops are nothing more than social workers and have been for the better part of the last 4 years.

The insurgents are still there, biding their time. If not, where are all the confirmed kills?

In the meantime OBL still roams free.

As soon as we begin our withdrawal all hell will break loose and secterian violence will reign supreme, we have gained nothing.

[OCA]

I know Dems were very happy to tell us how the war was lost, and now they are chocking on their crow

Now even the messiah, known as Obama, has done a flip flop on his Iraq policy - and it is pissing off some of his supporters

The Dems had only one military strategy, and it was being led by the messiah

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/wteach/surrender/SMObamaCPUSA.jpg

If the war is won where is the declaration of surrender? Where are the enemy kills?

I know you don't seriously believe the regurgitated Rush tripe you are saying.

[OCA]

Yep, and it is taking a lot longer because they want to make sure the country doesn't devolve into a civil war with two well trained groups fighting each other. It takes time to get them to think nationalistically rather than tribally. And once we leave what they do is their business.

You seriously believe that thousands of years of thinking can be changed in 5 years?

Nah, you really don't.

Once we leave its Sunni vs Shiite and then Iraq gets swallowed up by Iran, its inevitable and I really don't think we have a dog in that fight, let em have it.

[Yurt]

You seriously believe that thousands of years of thinking can be changed in 5 years?

Nah, you really don't.

Once we leave its Sunni vs Shiite and then Iraq gets swallowed up by Iran, its inevitable and I really don't think we have a dog in that fight, let em have it.

did the sunnis and shias come together (with the aid of the surge) to rid iraq of AQ?

[retiredman]

did the sunnis and shias come together (with the aid of the surge) to rid iraq of AQ?

it has been my understanding that the anti-AQ efforts were nearly entirely sunni initiated.

[OCA]

did the sunnis and shias come together (with the aid of the surge) to rid iraq of AQ?

No.

[OCA]

did the sunnis and shias come together (with the aid of the surge) to rid iraq of AQ?

And since when is Iraq rid of AQ? Where did you hear that 1 at?

[5stringJeff]

I find it hard to believe that only 8 people have voted in this thread, and almost all (including me) favor a phased withdrawal. Is no one on DP defending the continued US military presence in Iraq?

[OCA]

I find it hard to believe that only 8 people have voted in this thread, and almost all (including me) favor a phased withdrawal. Is no one on DP defending the continued US military presence in Iraq?

Nope, no one will do that because they know are continued presence there is a joke.

[Yurt]

And since when is Iraq rid of AQ? Where did you hear that 1 at?

the iraqi government claims they went to afganistan...could still come back of course, i don't have link, read it a couple of days ago

[Dilloduck]

The guidelines have always been when the government of Iraq tells the US they can stand alone - we stand down

Exactly--we stayed the course. Now let's get them out of there before they are subjected to Obama as CIC.

[red states rule]

Exactly--we stayed the course. Now let's get them out of there before they are subjected to Obama as CIC.

and after 5 years, it is nice to see moonbats like MFM, the messiah, and others to agree with the Bush policy

Better late then never

[OCA]

the iraqi government claims they went to afganistan...could still come back of course, i don't have link, read it a couple of days ago

You really believe that?

I believe they are just waiting for when Obama takes office in January and immediately begins the withdrawal process, at that point and time you will see the attacks increase exponentially and then when we are gone for good Iran will step in with a Shiite theocracy, not that I give a shit about that, don't help the #1 concern among Americans................the economy.

We really should've left about 4 yrs ago, Bush got his revenge on the guy who tried to whack his daddy and no WMD was found, time to go was then. IMO we lost about 3,500 soldiers for no damn good reason. The Iraqis will never come together as one, they won't ever police themselves, thats been proven throughout history, so why were we so goddamn arrogant to think we could change that?

[OCA]

and after 5 years, it is nice to see moonbats like MFM, the messiah, and others to agree with the Bush policy

Better late then never

Which of the ten or so different policies that Bush has had is the one they are agreeing with?

[OCA]

Jeff, could you please change my vote to immediate withdrawal?

The more I think about it it don't matter if its phased or immediate the result will be the same. I'd rather not see anymore lives wasted for a failed and foolish Iraq policy.

[namvet]

You really believe that?

I believe they are just waiting for when Obama takes office in January and immediately begins the withdrawal process, at that point and time you will see the attacks increase exponentially and then when we are gone for good Iran will step in with a Shiite theocracy, not that I give a shit about that, don't help the #1 concern among Americans................the economy.

We really should've left about 4 yrs ago, Bush got his revenge on the guy who tried to whack his daddy and no WMD was found, time to go was then. IMO we lost about 3,500 soldiers for no damn good reason. The Iraqis will never come together as one, they won't ever police themselves, thats been proven throughout history, so why were we so goddamn arrogant to think we could change that?

the Iraqi's already have a timeline for withdrawal. Bush has already announced 30,000 to be pulled out. your 1/2 breed is already giving up on Iraq and now wants to kill more troops by sending them to Afghanistan. what is he really looking for there???? the war is now a back page story. whats on the front????? having trouble keeping up i see

[OCA]

the Iraqi's already have a timeline for withdrawal. Bush has already announced 30,000 to be pulled out. your 1/2 breed is already giving up on Iraq and now wants to kill more troops by sending them to Afghanistan. what is he really looking for there???? the war is now a back page story. whats on the front????? having trouble keeping up i see

My halfbreed? My you don'y pay attention here, do you?

The mission was finished 4+yrs ago but I suppose you think its noble to have soldiers clipped needlessly working in social service capacities, eh?

Afghanistan is where the 130,000 troops should've been after Saddam was captured, we should've called it good then.

[namvet]

My halfbreed? My you don'y pay attention here, do you?

The mission was finished 4+yrs ago but I suppose you think its noble to have soldiers clipped needlessly working in social service capacities, eh?

Afghanistan is where the 130,000 troops should've been after Saddam was captured, we should've called it good then.

any why Afghanistan??? whats there for the liberals?????

[hjmick]

Your halfbreed?!?!?!

Jesus OCA, when did you decide to support Obama? Did I miss a memo? Did Hell freeze?

[5stringJeff]

and after 5 years, it is nice to see moonbats like MFM, the messiah, and others to agree with the Bush policy

Better late then never

I think Bush is the one who's had the change of heart, not the others. When al-Maliki told Bush he wanted the US to start pulling out troops now, Bush magically changed his tune.


Jeff, could you please change my vote to immediate withdrawal?

The more I think about it it don't matter if its phased or immediate the result will be the same. I'd rather not see anymore lives wasted for a failed and foolish Iraq policy.

Done.

[5stringJeff]

any why Afghanistan??? whats there for the liberals?????

The other part of the war on terror, including OBL. And FYI, OCA is far from a liberal.

[namvet]

Jeff, could you please change my vote to immediate withdrawal?

The more I think about it it don't matter if its phased or immediate the result will be the same. I'd rather not see anymore lives wasted for a failed and foolish Iraq policy.

an excellent way to get them slaughtered. I say put you in their place.

[namvet]

The other part of the war on terror, including OBL. And FYI, OCA is far from a liberal.

he is???? he sounds like one. 100% hard core. Osama said they were going there to fight the tali ban. another lie.

[Yurt]

I think Bush is the one who's had the change of heart, not the others. When al-Maliki told Bush he wanted the US to start pulling out troops now, Bush magically changed his tune.



Done.

what is wrong with that, bush has maintained that stance from day one. when the iraqis want us gone, we are gone.

[5stringJeff]

what is wrong with that, bush has maintained that stance from day one. when the iraqis want us gone, we are gone.

I don't think Bush was expecting the Iraqis to tell him they were ready to go in the middle of an election year.

[manu1959]

I don't think Bush was expecting the Iraqis to tell him they were ready to go in the middle of an election year.

completly disagree......i think, and have maintained for quite some time, that bush would be redeploying troops to afganistan and drawing down iraq comabt troops.....in order to steal the dems thunder on ending the war....and switch the point of attack to the economy......which the dems can't win.....

mark my words....

[retiredman]

what makes you think that democrats cannot win the debate on the economy?

"Once again, the economy is the top issue for voters, with 83% who say it is a very important issue in the upcoming election. This month, voters trust the Democratic Party by a 47% to 37% margin."


http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/trust_on_issues/trust_on_issues

[Yurt]

I don't think Bush was expecting the Iraqis to tell him they were ready to go in the middle of an election year.

ok, but bush did say that when the iraqis can take care of themselves and want us gone, we are gone....

it makes him better, not worse, so not sure what your thinking is

[retiredman]

ok, but bush did say that when the iraqis can take care of themselves and want us gone, we are gone....

it makes him better, not worse, so not sure what your thinking is

if we'd LEAVE, then it would make him better...until then, he is a lying sack of shit.

kinda like you

[Yurt]

if we'd LEAVE, then it would make him better...until then, he is a lying sack of shit.

kinda like you

too bad that i have proven you a liar and you, not for lack of trying very hard, can't get a single lie on me....no wonder you're so agigated when responding to me, must suck to lose everytime to such a bright young fella :laugh2:

[retiredman]

too bad that i have proven you a liar and you, not for lack of trying very hard, can't get a single lie on me....no wonder you're so agigated when responding to me, must suck to lose everytime to such a bright young fella :laugh2:
if you could prove me a liar, you would have done so.

and God help us if you are what passed for "bright young fellas" in our nation today.

[Yurt]

if you could prove me a liar, you would have done so.

and God help us if you are what passed for "bright young fellas" in our nation today.

i have numerous times, it is only natural that YOU would not admit that, glad you admitted by omission that you have not caught me in one :laugh2:

[5stringJeff]

RSR, MFM, Yurt:

Leave the board-wide feud out of this thread. Thank you.

AHEM.

[Yurt]

AHEM.



i kept it clean, but a response was called for when he called me a liar

[hjmick]

Don't make me turn this car around...

[Yurt]

Don't make me turn this car around...

:lol:

for me it was .... don't make me stop this car

[retiredman]

:lol:

for me it was .... don't make me stop this car

you have "caught me" in nothing, you shyster sheeny.

try again.

[Kathianne]

you have "caught me" in nothing, you shyster sheeny.

try again.

Seriously, Jeff asked you to knock off the personal attacks that derail thread after thread. Notice it wasn't directed only at you?

[retiredman]

Seriously, Jeff asked you to knock off the personal attacks that derail thread after thread. Notice it wasn't directed only at you?


seriously, why is this post, in fact, directed only at me?

[Kathianne]

seriously, why is this post, in fact, directed only at me?

Because you started it up again. I mentioned Jeff's request, ahem, so others hopefully would not answer back or go to the cage. This total board nastiness is not appreciated.

[retiredman]

and brother yurt is without sin, I gather....

[Yurt]

and brother yurt is without sin, I gather....

wrong, you kept up the insults AFTER jeff said to knock it off the second time.

[Kathianne]

wrong, you kept up the insults AFTER jeff said to knock it off the second time.

Drop the arguing, it's way past old. Please. As I said in the beginning, Jeff asked all the 'regular' participants on this behavior. Thank you. No need to reply.

[OCA]

what is wrong with that, bush has maintained that stance from day one. when the iraqis want us gone, we are gone.

Yurt the Iraqis have been saying that for a few years now, only when popular opinion in America AND the Iraqis said its time to go did Bush change his tune.

[Yurt]

Yurt the Iraqis have been saying that for a few years now, only when popular opinion in America AND the Iraqis said its time to go did Bush change his tune.

would you say the government and military was capable of its own defense a few years ago? or is now the better time? i don't believe the government official asked us to leave a few years ago, it might have been some people, but not the government in its official capacity with a trained military to back it up.

i don't see the purpose of simply getting rid of saddam and then abandoning the infant iraqi government before they can manage themselves and have a military capable of defending the government as they have now.

[OCA]

an excellent way to get them slaughtered. I say put you in their place.

Wait, I thought everyone is saying how peaceful it is there now, that we've driven the insurgents and AQ out, are you saying everyone is wrong?

Where were you when we were sending the itty bitty patrols out to get whacked needlessly instead of fighting war the way its supposed to be fought? Are you for the troops being used like a fucking social service agency which is exactly what they've been doing for the past 3 yrs or so?

Were you down with the decision Bremer made when we basically had the insurgency locked into Fallujah, had the whole fucking place surrounded and Bremer had his lackey W pull the troops back because it might upset some fucking election? I say that cost us about another 2,000 lives right there.......senselessly.

I've said all along, let the generals run the shit the way its supposed to be run(death and destruction) and the fucking oval office keep its friggin hands off the deal.................but thats not what has happened, has it?

[OCA]

would you say the government and military was capable of its own defense a few years ago? or is now the better time? i don't believe the government official asked us to leave a few years ago, it might have been some people, but not the government in its official capacity with a trained military to back it up.

i don't see the purpose of simply getting rid of saddam and then abandoning the infant iraqi government before they can manage themselves and have a military capable of defending the government as they have now.

Let me tell you what vets of Iraq say about the Iraqi army, now and then, the Iraqi army, when push comes to shove, runs like bitches and retreats into their tribal alliances. They are a tribal people, their cultural tribal allegiances mean way more than allegiance to a national identity, thats been going on for thousands of years and nothing is going to change that.

We are completely arrogant to think we can change that, better off trying to get the sun to come up in the west.

[OCA]

any why Afghanistan??? whats there for the liberals?????

Not sure what is there for the libs, not being one and all but I know that OBL is somewhere there along the Pakistani border and in my mind you cut the head off the snake and there is a good possibility that the snake dies.

You do remember who OBL is right?

[Yurt]

Let me tell you what vets of Iraq say about the Iraqi army, now and then, the Iraqi army, when push comes to shove, runs like bitches and retreats into their tribal alliances. They are a tribal people, their cultural tribal allegiances mean way more than allegiance to a national identity, thats been going on for thousands of years and nothing is going to change that.

We are completely arrogant to think we can change that, better off trying to get the sun to come up in the west.

since that is the case, there is nothing we can do to stop their cowardice or tribal alliances. bush merely promised a stable government with a military capable of defending it. the official government, now fairly stable considering everything, has officially asked us to leave in phased withdrawals and the government feels capable.

that is why i voted for withdrawal. of course no one can predict what the government or army or shias and sunnis will do in the future. bush delivered what he promised. if i promise you that i will get you to work because i promise to buy you a new car, if you trash the car and can't get to work, is that my fault?

i agree with you on the change part. however, after discussing this in length with manu who suggests that it is possible that the muslims will stop fighting and come into the modern era, similar to christians who have a history of war amongst each other, i am loathe to make such outright proclamations. for it is possible that modern muslims may bring islam into the modern era. i highly doubt it, but it is possible.

[OCA]

he is???? he sounds like one. 100% hard core. Osama said they were going there to fight the tali ban. another lie.

For the love of Christ! Anything better than calling me a lib? Did you get caught in an agent orange drop?

So fighting the Taliban is a lie, whats the truth according to Namvet?

[OCA]

since that is the case, there is nothing we can do to stop their cowardice or tribal alliances. bush merely promised a stable government with a military capable of defending it. the official government, now fairly stable considering everything, has officially asked us to leave in phased withdrawals and the government feels capable.

that is why i voted for withdrawal. of course no one can predict what the government or army or shias and sunnis will do in the future. bush delivered what he promised. if i promise you that i will get you to work because i promise to buy you a new car, if you trash the car and can't get to work, is that my fault?

i agree with you on the change part. however, after discussing this in length with manu who suggests that it is possible that the muslims will stop fighting and come into the modern era, similar to christians who have a history of war amongst each other, i am loathe to make such outright proclamations. for it is possible that modern muslims may bring islam into the modern era. i highly doubt it, but it is possible.

Ok, the better question is thusly.................was it worth one American life to see to it that the Iraqis have a stable government? That the Iraqis become modernized? Rember that neither of those things were originally given as a reason for going there in the first place, they were only offered up when the going got hot. Remember that I supported and will always support the original reasons for going there, I still believe that Saddam had WMD and if we look in China, Russia or Syria they will be there, I do not however support nationbuilding at the expense of American lives.

[Yurt]

Ok, the better question is thusly.................was it worth one American life to see to it that the Iraqis have a stable government? That the Iraqis become modernized? Rember that neither of those things were originally given as a reason for going there in the first place, they were only offered up when the going got hot. Remember that I supported and will always support the original reasons for going there, I still believe that Saddam had WMD and if we look in China, Russia or Syria they will be there, I do not however support nationbuilding at the expense of American lives.

i think it is too early to determine if it is worth it. i would be loathe to say those soldiers lost their lives for nothing. only history and time will tell us if it was truly worth it.

imagine if this actually brings the middle east into the modern era.

if you support the taking out saddam over WMDs, what then do you think we should have done after we toppled saddam?

[OCA]

i think it is too early to determine if it is worth it. i would be loathe to say those soldiers lost their lives for nothing. only history and time will tell us if it was truly worth it.

imagine if this actually brings the middle east into the modern era.

if you support the taking out saddam over WMDs, what then do you think we should have done after we toppled saddam?

Got the fuck out and let them sort it out, after a little oil looting.

[Yurt]

Got the fuck out and let them sort it out, after a little oil looting.

ok