Q: Do you believe our Gov't has the Responsibilty to make our lives better?

[darin]

Why or why not?

I believe the government is NOT in place to make my life better. I believe the government's responsibility to MY life ends with protecting my ability to take action to improve my life (equal rights laws, etc,).

[April15]

Not really. Just secure in that our food is safe and our water is pure, drinking water. Other than that taxes maintain the roads, etc.

[namvet]

not as long as the democraps are there !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Little-Acorn]

Of course not. They have the responsibility, if anything, to get out of the way and quit interfering, so that we can make OUR OWN lives better.

They are there to protect our rights. And that's the only reason government exists. "We the people" are supposed to handle the rest.

I love this question. DMP, you may have hit upon the best way to express the difference between conservatives and modern liberals (note that I didn't say Republicans and Democrats, since Republicans have been becoming more and more liberal for the last few decades).

A modern liberal is someone who feels that government DOES have that responsibility, to make our lives better. And a conservative is one who believes they don't and shouldn't.

Protecting our fundamental rights, basically keeps OTHERS from making our lives WORSE. That is government's job. Protecting against murder, theft, coercion, fraud, by people domestic or foreign. Aside from that, government has no business in our affairs.

And it certainly has no responsibility to "make our lives better". In part because IT CAN'T.

[Abbey Marie]

Isn't a nanny state and it's endless social programs, throwing a monkey wrench into the efficacy of the survival of the fittest? Wouldn't logic dictate that our species will go into decline because of it? I think we already are.

[Yurt]

its clear many have distorted the meaning of the term "welfare" in the preamble

[avatar4321]

Nope. The government doesn't have responsibility to better our lives. We do.

[Hobbit]

It is our own responsibility to make our own lives better. It is the responsibility of government to remove the obstacles to success.

[PostmodernProphet]

yes, by staying out of it......

[Yurt]

ok, lets play:

the constitution promises that the government will take care and promote our welfare...welfare means making our lives better

[Kathianne]

I have little to say that hasn't been said. If the government abolished Department of Ed., Energy, Homeland Security for starts that would be good. State could probably be half. Cut Congressional staff by 2/3, they won't be able to get so much 'done' to us.

[trobinett]

Why or why not?

I believe the government is NOT in place to make my life better. I believe the government's responsibility to MY life ends with protecting my ability to take action to improve my life (equal rights laws, etc,).

The government doesn't exist to make ANYONE'S life better, or worst, except maybe the liberals, but I digress.

National security is the number one responsibility of our NATIONAL government.

International diplomacy is next.

Interstate transportation is next.

Interstate cooperation between states would be next.

The rest of the responsibility resides with the States, and then with us, but we are due these things for the tax's we pay.:salute:

[red states rule]

I have little to say that hasn't been said. If the government abolished Department of Ed., Energy, Homeland Security for starts that would be good. State could probably be half. Cut Congressional staff by 2/3, they won't be able to get so much 'done' to us.

You could also get rid of Advisory Council on Historic Preservation, Dept if Interior, National Endowment of the Arts, and Faith based office

I am sure there are alot more. There is so much pork and needless programs

[Kathianne]

You could also get rid of Advisory Council on Historic Preservation, Dept if Interior, National Endowment of the Arts, and Faith based office

I am sure there are alot more. There is so much pork and needless programs

Oh for certain, agree completely. I was just starting at the top. Cut away my friend.

[red states rule]

Oh for certain, agree completely. I was just starting at the top. Cut away my friend.

There is a hell of alot Kathianne

Start here with the "A's" and see how damn bloated this pig known as the Federal government really is

http://www.usa.gov/Agencies/Federal/All_Agencies/index.shtml

Please rememeber while looking at all the pages and all the departments - the messiah says government is to small and he needs more of our money to fatten the pig up even more

[Little-Acorn]

The government doesn't exist to make ANYONE'S life better, or worst, except maybe the liberals, but I digress.

National security is the number one responsibility of our NATIONAL government.

International diplomacy is next.

Interstate transportation is next.

Interstate cooperation between states would be next.


Coining money.
Running Federal courts to resolve interstate disputes and prosecutions, and disputes under Federal law.
Regulating interstate commerce.
Other such. See Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution for a handy list.

[5stringJeff]

I think it's been said a few times in this thread, but the proper role of the government is to protect the liberty and rights (natural and property) of its citizens, and nothing else.

And, not to sound like a broken record, but there's only one political party out there that will actually govern that way. And no, it's not the Republicans. :)

[Hobbit]

I propose that if we can't go back to the way it's supposed to be, that at least we be honest with ourselves and post an amended preamble to the Constitution.

We the <s>People</s> Government of the United States, in Order to form a <s>more</s> perfect Union, establish Social Justice, insure domestic <s>Tranquility</s> Spending, provide for the lowest common <s>defense</s> denominator, promote <s>the general</s> Welfare, and secure the Blessings of <s>Liberty</s> Votes to ourselves <s>and our Posterity</s>, do <s>ordain and</s> establish this Living, Breathing Constitution for the United State<s>s</s> of America.

[red states rule]

I propose that if we can't go back to the way it's supposed to be, that at least we be honest with ourselves and post an amended preamble to the Constitution.

We the <s>People</s> Government of the United States, in Order to form a <s>more</s> perfect Union, establish Social Justice, insure domestic <s>Tranquility</s> Spending, provide for the lowest common <s>defense</s> denominator, promote <s>the general</s> Welfare, and secure the Blessings of <s>Liberty</s> Votes to ourselves <s>and our Posterity</s>, do <s>ordain and</s> establish this Living, Breathing Constitution for the United State<s>s</s> of America.



and we have this gem

“I pledge allegiance to the Left and all who hate America, and not to all the Republicans for which I can't stand, one nation without God, divisible, with liberty and justice for terrorists.”

http://commonsenselogic.blogspot.com/2006/09/liberal-pledge-of-allegiance.html

[gabosaurus]

Our government should allow us to have opportunities. Our government is not supposed to openly provide them.

[red states rule]

Our government should allow us to have opportunities. Our government is not supposed to openly provide them.

You make your own opportunities. The government should get out of the way

[DragonStryk72]

Why or why not?

I believe the government is NOT in place to make my life better. I believe the government's responsibility to MY life ends with protecting my ability to take action to improve my life (equal rights laws, etc,).

No, hell no, not a chance in hell, etc. As for why? Have you seen the history of the past 20-30 years? Any time the govt goes beyond protecting liberty, it creates an enormous cluster fuck that completely overshadows whatever good they were trying to do.

[red states rule]

Isn't a nanny state and it's endless social programs, throwing a monkey wrench into the efficacy of the survival of the fittest? Wouldn't logic dictate that our species will go into decline because of it? I think we already are.

Abbey, any taxpayer that votes for the messiah (known as Obama) is like a chicken voting for Col Sanders

[Yurt]

i'm surprised midcan hasn't posted

[Little-Acorn]

i'm surprised midcan hasn't posted

He believes govt's MAIN job is to take care of us, make sure everybody gets the same goodies, etc. etc.

He hasn't posted because he knows he can't intellectually defend his ideology, but is determined to stick with it anyway so he can "get" conservatives.

[Classact]

ok, lets play:

the constitution promises that the government will take care and promote our welfare...welfare means making our lives betterPromoting the general welfare was an implication that government would do neutral actions like building a bridge between two states or operate a ferry. Perhaps the national institute of health...

I don't think the general welfare was indicated to any individual since the federal constitution didn't apply to rights of state citizens in the form of welfare. The only way the federal government has ever applied federal social programs is through the Social Security Act... To participate in the SS Act you must volunteer to accept the SS#. The SS# is the only connection between the US and State citizens in matters of social systems.

[Yurt]

Promoting the general welfare was an implication that government would do neutral actions like building a bridge between two states or operate a ferry. Perhaps the national institute of health...

I don't think the general welfare was indicated to any individual since the federal constitution didn't apply to rights of state citizens in the form of welfare. The only way the federal government has ever applied federal social programs is through the Social Security Act... To participate in the SS Act you must volunteer to accept the SS#. The SS# is the only connection between the US and State citizens in matters of social systems.

party pooper...i was hoping a lib would seize on my post.

as i said earlier in this thread, libs and some repubs, have distorted the term "welfare"

here is a question:

does obama want a smaller government or a larger government? does obama and by extension his followers, believe that the government's role is to make our lives better?

same question for mccain and barr.

which candidate best represents the, overwhelming majority, belief in this thread that government does NOT have the responsibility to make our lives better?

[Abbey Marie]

http://images.google.com/url?q=http://politicalpartypoop.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/democrats6.jpg&usg=AFQjCNEnT13nSUqmGGiwxcC-HdJVYgC55Q

http://politicalpartypoop.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/democrats6.jpg

[Yurt]

:lol:

[midcan5]

Yes.

[Little-Acorn]

ok, lets play:

the constitution promises that the government will take care and promote our welfare...welfare means making our lives better

"Welfare" is mentioned in the Preamble and in the so-called "Welfare Clause". In both cases it is specified as "General Welfare".

In the language at the time, "General Welfare" was specified to distinguish it from "Individual welfare". "General Welfare" meant anything that helps everyone in the United States equally. The "Welfare CLause" says that the US government can collect taxes and spend them on Defense and the General Welfare. It was written that way to exclude "individual welfare" - the govt could spend tax money only on things that would boost everyone at once, not on things that would benefit smaller groups (today known as "special interests") or individuals alone.

The "Welfare Clause" was not a blanket permission to do anything that might help someone. It was a restriction, in fact. The govt could spend tax money on things that would help ALL Americans equally, but not things that would help just Pennsylvanians, or Southerners, or blacks etc.

As for the mention of Welfare in the Preamble... the Preamble simply states what the writers and ratifyers of the Constitution intended. It says "In order to help all Americans and do several other things, we are writing a Constitution that restricts the Federal government vigorously and keeps it from interfering with what people do, except for things the govt just HAS to do."

The preamble is not law at all, in fact. It's just a statement that the Framers hoped it would accomplish several blanket goals.

The Constitution, and the government it created, were not designed to make our lives better. It was designed to describe our government and to KEEP IT OUT OF OUR FACES so that we could make our own lives better, without interference from government.

[emmett]

party pooper...i was hoping a lib would seize on my post.

as i said earlier in this thread, libs and some repubs, have distorted the term "welfare"

here is a question:

does obama want a smaller government or a larger government? does obama and by extension his followers, believe that the government's role is to make our lives better?

same question for mccain and barr.

which candidate best represents the, overwhelming majority, belief in this thread that government does NOT have the responsibility to make our lives better?

Well yurt, Libertarians would be your answer. All of them! See, the great thing about Libertarians is unilateral belief in one philosophy. While Libertarians have just as many differneces in fundamental thinking as others, we understand that the objective is absolute liberty. For instance, I being what I consider a normal hetrosexual male do not want my grandchildren subjected to the ideas of homosexuals, I don't personally believe in abortion, I do not take drugs, however I realize that they are responsibility issues. A responsibility to one's self and his maker. Bob Barr would be the biproxy answer to your question as he is now the leader of our party. Our party leads in belief in Liberty hands down, elephants and asses know this. He has also voted for and supported ideas not in line with Libertarian platform ideas in the past. An evolutionary change of heart is not flip flopping. Conservatives with common sense from all over the country are shifting their beliefs at record rates. And guess what, so are democrats.

I don't subscribe to a philosophy that just because someone does not agree with your agenda, they are necessarily wrong. I am a big fan of guys like Joe Lieberman, Zell Miller, I liked John Kennedy's ideas and Hubert Humphrey had a sometimes more conservative stand than most, I like Alan Keys, Ross Perot, Larry Elder to name a few and respect the thoughts and ideas of thousands of others. I don't have to agree with them all and usually don't. But I respect them for their ability to be respectful of others ideas and agenda.

I am like you are, and many others here on the board, getting tired of politics as usual. Our two parties fight like children (and so do we on here). It is because our priorities and standards are been compromised. Most politicians don't stand for anything. They position themselves where they need to be to get votes. Look at those two, BO and JM. They are doing it. Bob Barr has taken what seem to some to be a "new position" as a Libertarian in some ways but like all of us is absolutely committed to the principle ideaology of Liberty and Freedom. Libertarians are very tolerant of each others beliefs in our party because we realize that our platform is faqr reaching and resonates with more of the spectrum. I mean, hell, it is hard for a 76 yr old conservative who remembers what it was like to grow up without TV in his house to come to peace with today's issues like gay rights. We have to be elastic in a sense to really have liberty.

Government is suppose to be as small as possible. It's purpose is to "serve" the interests of the people. When it does not do that any longer and the majority feels it has misrepresented them, a people's militia is authorized to remove it and start over. A militia does not have to tote guns and fight with bullets. We can do it with our votes and our message. Libertarians aren't here to say that starting over in government would be easy or that every single policy they support would work with today's world. I mean, let's be honest, the Constitution was written a long time ago. There were no cars, planes, need for airport security, there was one lawman per small town if any and things were very different. We didn't have this awsome infrastructure to maintain. It is more complex today. So is the issue of how Liberty would lead us back to an America we can love and be proud of. It is a given that we have to start somewhere though because this government is broken. It doesn't work anymore. Everyone knows it but we are scared. Libertarianism is the best place to start over because it best represents the original starting line. Then, like always, we would go from there using a true democracy of people elected by the people to properly represent the interests of all freedom loving Americans. Hopefully, in that scenario we wouldn't ignore what was going on and stay interested, vote and be involved, weed out those who seek to distort, except bribes for votes and make other interests other than representing the folks they were elected by, be their priority.

Fear rules our world today. We are all scared. I'm scared. I'm afraid there will never be a little league game played ever again on the field I played on at Murphy candler park. I'm afraid families have gone so far down hill that my decendants will mix with misdirected, unpatriotic and uncaring children. I'm afraid that our heros of the past will have shed their blood needlessly. I'm afraid people won't get it, that they will allow this charade to continue, thinking that somehow "their" one sided view will win out. It won't. American values require the common denominator of all of our beliefs but must first be rooted in Absolute Freedom to work. Mean spirited, overbearing catering to big bucks and big fucks ain't the deal brother.

The republicans are wrong!

The Democrats are wrong!

It is that simple. We all see it but we're scared.

[manu1959]

The government doesn't exist to make ANYONE'S life better, or worst, except maybe the liberals, but I digress.

National security is the number one responsibility of our NATIONAL government.

International diplomacy is next.

Interstate transportation is next.

Interstate cooperation between states would be next.

The rest of the responsibility resides with the States, and then with us, but we are due these things for the tax's we pay.:salute:

funny we used to get those things without paying taxes..........

[red states rule]

funny we used to get those things without paying taxes..........

that changed forever when the libs came up with their expensive failure known as the war on poverty

So far libs have completed $9 trillion in wealth transfers in the last 40 years to end poverty, and we are told poverty is worse then ever

Oh, and more money is needed so higher taxes must be imposed on the producers

[Little-Acorn]

funny we used to get those things without paying taxes..........

Huh? We did?

On interstate transportation, I pretty much agree.

On interstate cooperation, I'm afraid not, in many critical areas. Same for international diplomacy and national security.

After the Declaration of Independence was signed, we didn't have a Constitution. We wrote up the Articles of Confederation, which was sort of a "Constitution Lite". It formed a central government and gave it certain powers, but not as much as the Constitution later did.

The central government could not regulate interstate commerce, so states started issuing restrictions and bans on trade goods, and charging import and export duties, not only on goods from foreign nations like England and Spain, but even on goods exchanged with other states. It became an incredible mish-mash, made even worse when one state wanted to transport goods thru several other states to arrive at its final destination, a state on the other side of the country. Cooperation between states got VERY hard to find.

International diplomacy was similary hairy. The country almost wasn't a country under the AOC, more like thirteen small countries that could do a few things together. But the central government could not make and enforce treaties with other nations, and individual states were reluctant to enforce a treaty that may not have benefitted tham as much as other states. It became another area of difficulty.

National Defense was even worse. If someone invaded Virginia, there was nothing to get Pennsylvania and Georgia to come to the defense, it wasn't them who got invaded. And the central government couldn't even levy taxes: the states were supposed to pay taxes to the central government voluntarily. You can imagine how well that turned out.

So no, we basically DIDN'T used to get interstate cooperation, international diplomacy, and national defense without paying taxes for them. Back when we didn't pay for them, we got squat. Only when the Constitution was ratified, giving the central government powers to do those things... and the power to levy taxes to pay for the offices, bureaucrats, transportation, and arms and armies, did we start to get them. They are all legitimate functions of the central govenment, because states and lower governments COULD NOT do them.

[bullypulpit]

Why or why not?

I believe the government is NOT in place to make my life better. I believe the government's responsibility to MY life ends with protecting my ability to take action to improve my life (equal rights laws, etc,).

Indeed, but you've left out many things, environmental protection...affordable health care, housing and education...safe, reliable infrastructure...product safety...law enforcement...and the list goes on. It's mot so simple as many make it, and it comes with a price tag.

[Dilloduck]

Indeed, but you've left out many things, environmental protection...affordable health care, housing and education...safe, reliable infrastructure...product safety...law enforcement...and the list goes on. It's mot so simple as many make it, and it comes with a price tag.

and when the government decides to do things like the above and tell us it's for our own good we can be assured it will cost too much and fail. You act is if the government is like some kind of labor union.

I'll do my own bargaining tyvm.

[darin]

Some VERY VERY good replies here.

[MtnBiker]

I believe that people have the responsibility themselves to make their lives better.

[MtnBiker]

Indeed, but you've left out many things, environmental protection...affordable health care, housing and education...safe, reliable infrastructure...product safety...law enforcement...and the list goes on. It's mot so simple as many make it, and it comes with a price tag.

It is the government's responsibility to house people?

[Little-Acorn]

Indeed, but you've left out many things,
For good reason.


environmental protection...
Not an authorized function of the Federal government. I believe this should be changed, and interstate environmental affairs made an official (i.e. Constitutional) branch of the govt. But it hasn't been, yet.


affordable health care,
None of the Federal government's business, and shouldn't be.


housing and education...
None of the Federal government's business,and shouldn't be.


safe, reliable infrastructure
None of the Federal government's business, and MOSTLY shouldn't be.


...product safety
None of the Federal government's business, and shouldn't be.


...law enforcement...
It's the President's job to make sure Federal laws are enforced. Been in the Constitution since it was written. The rest of the laws are none of the Federal government's business.

[Hobbit]

Indeed, but you've left out many things, environmental protection...affordable health care, housing and education...safe, reliable infrastructure...product safety...law enforcement...and the list goes on. It's mot so simple as many make it, and it comes with a price tag.

Of the list above, the Constitution only grants the federal government the power to enforce laws and create infrastructure that spans multiple states, and only then with the permission of those states. Of those two things, the enforcement of laws lies solely with the president. The rest are not only bad ideas, they're political moves with political goals. The object of all of those things to only one thing...votes. Each of those programs is designed to buy votes with money that has been forcefully confiscated from the American people.