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TheSage
01-13-2007, 09:52 AM
Just to provide some balance, I found this article which rejects the tribalistic view of many within judaism. this is a form of judaism I can accept. But which form is truly dominant? It probably depends on whom you ask. And what is meant by dominant? We all know that % population is not always automatic dominance.



http://urj.org/Articles/index.cfm?id=12957
Not surprisingly, therefore, we still have many in our midst who hold tightly to a tribalistic view of Judaism—sometimes without even knowing it, and sometimes contrary to their own best instincts. And their conviction that only those of Jewish blood can really be part of us and can really contribute to Jewish life has found support in the many surveys that said that non-Jews who married Jews were not likely to raise their children as Jews and that, in the best of circumstances, most would remain on the fringes of the Jewish community.

And then, all of a sudden, comes the Boston survey, which says something else altogether. It says that a significant majority of non-Jews who marry Jews, when they are exposed to a vibrant and dynamic Jewish community, are prepared to participate actively in Jewish life; not only that, they are willing to raise their children as Jews; and not a few them will consider conversion and will ultimately fully embrace the Jewish tradition. In fact, what it shows is that under certain conditions, an intermarried family is about as likely as a family of uninvolved born Jews to raise their children as Jews.


down a bit ...



On balance, however, the news is very good. This survey offers convincing evidence that Alex Schindler’s vision was right all along. It tells us that when we welcome the intermarried with a full heart and offer them meaningful Jewish involvements, we can draw them into Jewish life and greatly increase the odds that they will raise Jewish children. And maybe, just maybe, this data will finally begin to overcome the passive resistance of so many Jews who are as yet unwilling to accept that we are not a tribe but a religious people and that membership in this people is open to all who accept its teachings and responsibilities. Maybe, just maybe, it will begin to convince the tribalists in our midst that instead of working so hard to discredit converts, intermarried parents, and the children of intermarried who are being raised as Jews, our task is to encourage them, embrace them, and appreciate the ways that they can strengthen and enrich our community. Maybe, just maybe, we have entered a new era in our approach to the intermarried among us.

Hugh Lincoln
01-13-2007, 10:05 PM
This professor

http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/

argues that the "tribal" or ethnic aspect of Judaism is what truly marks it. It is not like Christianity in that anyone can become a Christian. Converts to Judaism are not sought or welcomed, in truth, though to be public about that isn't strategic, so they put on a little show. One ancient rabbi said that a convert family could not be trusted until the seventh generation... and even then, watched closely.

The truth about Judaism is that it's a race cult whose "religious" aspects are really just designed to perpetuate and enforce the cult. If you want to get really wild, Prof. MacDonald discusses in one of his books how the Nazis were basically trying to copy that because they saw how effective it was. True story, check it out.

TheSage
01-13-2007, 10:07 PM
This professor

http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/

argues that the "tribal" or ethnic aspect of Judaism is what truly marks it. It is not like Christianity in that anyone can become a Christian. Converts to Judaism are not sought or welcomed, in truth, though to be public about that isn't strategic, so they put on a little show. One ancient rabbi said that a convert family could not be trusted until the seventh generation... and even then, watched closely.


I know. People who want to be "with the jews" are to become noahides, second class citizens in the talmudic worldview.

Gaffer
01-13-2007, 11:14 PM
I know. People who want to be "with the jews" are to become noahides, second class citizens in the talmudic worldview.

As opposed to becoming dhimmi's under the islamic caliphate?

TheSage
01-14-2007, 10:58 AM
As opposed to becoming dhimmi's under the islamic caliphate?

How about we reject both?

Hugh Lincoln
01-14-2007, 04:26 PM
How about we reject both?

Amen!

I talk to some neocon-types who think we should worship Jews and kill all Arabs.

I talk to some white nationalists who think we should side with Arabs and kill Jews.

Here's my idea: reject both as foreign, Semitic influences that are fine in Israel and the Arab world, but don't belong in our country.

TheSage
01-14-2007, 04:42 PM
Amen!

I talk to some neocon-types who think we should worship Jews and kill all Arabs.

I talk to some white nationalists who think we should side with Arabs and kill Jews.

Here's my idea: reject both as foreign, Semitic influences that are fine in Israel and the Arab world, but don't belong in our country.

Absolutely, Little Saint Hugh. This is the classic logical fallacy of presenting a false dichotomy. Self determination for westerners seems to be off the table for some reason.

5stringJeff
01-15-2007, 03:57 PM
I'd be very interested to see a Jew's opinion of the original article. Then again, it may depend on whether that person was Reformed, Conservative, or Orthodox.

TheSage
01-15-2007, 04:15 PM
I'd be very interested to see a Jew's opinion of the original article. Then again, it may depend on whether that person was Reformed, Conservative, or Orthodox.

well. The chabad branch of hasidim would say that non jews can only become noahides. They're the ones MOST OPEN about the talmud teachings. It doesn't mean they made it up, it means they're willing to be honest about what it says.

5stringJeff
01-15-2007, 04:42 PM
well. The chabad branch of hasidim would say that non jews can only become noahides. They're the ones MOST OPEN about the talmud teachings. It doesn't mean they made it up, it means they're willing to be honest about what it says.

Well, of course only non-Jews can be Noahides. Jews are already covered under God's covenant.

TheSage
01-15-2007, 04:44 PM
Well, of course only non-Jews can be Noahides. Jews are already covered under God's covenant.

That's according to jews and noahides. That is not the christian teaching; that is the dispensationalist perversion being taught in many churches. Paul always taught the gospel should be brought to the jews FIRST.

5stringJeff
01-15-2007, 04:50 PM
That's according to jews and noahides. That is not the christian teaching; that is the dispensationalist perversion being taught in many churches. Paul always taught the gospel should be brought to the jews FIRST.

And I agreed (in the other thread) that there is only one source of salvation. But from the Jewish standpoint, there's no way a Jew (under the covenant) could be a noahide (someone originally not under the covenant). That would be like making the Bush twins apply for American citizenship; they already have it by birthright, so there's no need to make them reapply.

TheSage
01-15-2007, 04:51 PM
And I agreed (in the other thread) that there is only one source of salvation. But from the Jewish standpoint, there's no way a Jew (under the covenant) could be a noahide (someone originally not under the covenant). That would be like making the Bush twins apply for American citizenship; they already have it by birthright, so there's no need to make them reapply.

Right. Jews are jews. Noahides are noahides. Noahides are commanded to obey jews, according to jews. It's a slave mentality.

5stringJeff
01-15-2007, 04:53 PM
It may be. That doesn't mean it's right, any more than the Muslim dhimmi class is right.

TheSage
01-15-2007, 04:56 PM
It may be. That doesn't mean it's right, any more than the Muslim dhimmi class is right.


Do you mean right as in morally acceptable or right as in a correct interpretation of the Talmud?

5stringJeff
01-15-2007, 05:16 PM
Do you mean right as in morally acceptable or right as in a correct interpretation of the Talmud?

Morally acceptable. I really don't care how one interprets the Talmud, since I'm not Jewish.

TheSage
01-15-2007, 05:34 PM
Morally acceptable. I really don't care how one interprets the Talmud, since I'm not Jewish.


That's refeshing!:2up: