Libertarianism. Anyone! Let's go!

[emmett]

It is my sole purpose until November, and at all other times actually to educate folks as to why the LP is better for America than the two clusterfucks we have in power. Anyone care to debate it?

[April15]

Lou Dobbs won't accept is his elected!

[actsnoblemartin]

im on the fence. I will NOT be a republican, I hate the democrats,but i dont agree with the libertarians on atleast one major issue.

so go ahead, educate me

can one really have a fundamental disagreement or disagreement with a party and still be a part of it?


It is my sole purpose until November, and at all other times actually to educate folks as to why the LP is better for America than the two clusterfucks we have in power. Anyone care to debate it?

[emmett]

Lou Dobbs won't accept is his elected!

?????????????????

[manu1959]

im on the fence. I will NOT be a republican, I hate the democrats,but i dont agree with the libertarians on atleast one major issue.

so go ahead, educate me

can one really have a fundamental disagreement or disagreement with a party and still be a part of it?

what issue?

[emmett]

im on the fence. I will NOT be a republican, I hate the democrats,but i dont agree with the libertarians on atleast one major issue.

so go ahead, educate me

can one really have a fundamental disagreement or disagreement with a party and still be a part of it?


Martin, I am as hard core a Libertarian as it gets and YES.......I disagree with a few points on the platform. What I do believe in stringer than other issue in any platform, is total liberty. Complete freedom to do what I want, when I want, with absolutely NO government intrusion.

I don't want my property taken to build a mall.

I want to keep as much of my CASH in MY pocket as I want.

I don't want my bank account snooped in.

I want to be equal with ALL Americans, I also want to pay the exact same tax as EVERYONE else.

I want child molesters to fill our prison cells, not marijuana smokers.

I do not want to be randomly stopped and searched for ANY reason.....EVER!

I do not want a social security number......I have a name. With flat tax I won't need one for there will be no reason for the government to keep up with me.

I don't want to register my guns and if someone breaks in my house, I'm going to kill them. I don't think it is fair to prosecute someone for this.

I want to be responsible for myself, my children and grandchildren. I want to make the decisions that are important in their lives, NOT GOVERNMENT! If I choose to spank my child, it is none of their damn business.

I want to be responsible for my families education. I can teach them myself better than the damn government with their system of penalizing smart kids to make them wait on "challanged or neglected" ones.





These are alot of good reasons to be a Libertarian. I don't have to agree with Abortion (which I do not), open homosexuality (which I don't). However in order to acheive COMPLETE liberty, I have to be tolerant. That is the only way.


VOTE LIBARTARIAN! Patrick Henry did, 200 years before there was a LIbertarian Party.

[Sitarro]

Martin, I am as hard core a Libertarian as it gets and YES.......I disagree with a few points on the platform. What I do believe in stringer than other issue in any platform, is total liberty. Complete freedom to do what I want, when I want, with absolutely NO government intrusion.

I don't want my property taken to build a mall.

I want to keep as much of my CASH in MY pocket as I want.

I don't want my bank account snooped in.

I want to be equal with ALL Americans, I also want to pay the exact same tax as EVERYONE else.

I want child molesters to fill our prison cells, not marijuana smokers.

I do not want to be randomly stopped and searched for ANY reason.....EVER!

I do not want a social security number......I have a name. With flat tax I won't need one for there will be no reason for the government to keep up with me.

I don't want to register my guns and if someone breaks in my house, I'm going to kill them. I don't think it is fair to prosecute someone for this.

I want to be responsible for myself, my children and grandchildren. I want to make the decisions that are important in their lives, NOT GOVERNMENT! If I choose to spank my child, it is none of their damn business.

I want to be responsible for my families education. I can teach them myself better than the damn government with their system of penalizing smart kids to make them wait on "challanged or neglected" ones.





These are alot of good reasons to be a Libertarian. I don't have to agree with Abortion (which I do not), open homosexuality (which I don't). However in order to acheive COMPLETE liberty, I have to be tolerant. That is the only way.


VOTE LIBARTARIAN! Patrick Henry did, 200 years before there was a LIbertarian Party.

You have convinced me emmett, next election the Libertarians get my vote........ that would be the 2012 election.:salute: Get some Senators, State and Federal, Representatives, State and Federal and lets go!

[emmett]

You have convinced me emmett, next election the Libertarians get my vote........ that would be the 2012 election.:salute: Get some Senators, State and Federal, Representatives, State and Federal and lets go!

Thata boy! You're getting there my friend. That guy in the booth!






It was you!

[actsnoblemartin]

It is my sole purpose until November, and at all other times actually to educate folks as to why the LP is better for America than the two clusterfucks we have in power. Anyone care to debate it?

I want to discuss it with you more, but im too tired right now, so please educate me, and we'll discuss here and in pm's tommorrow ok?

personally I think a vote for either douche bag is a vote for status quo, both parties have been failing our country for OVER 40 YEARS!

[emmett]

You have convinced me emmett, next election the Libertarians get my vote........ that would be the 2012 election.:salute: Get some Senators, State and Federal, Representatives, State and Federal and lets go!

Sitarro, you as usual have made a very good point. Unfortunately, there is no time for conventional methods. We need a tea party friend.

We need to start at the top and work down, not bottom and work up on this one. As soon as a Libertarian is elected, forst of all, several politicians will switch to LP...........immediately! I assure you. Everyone will be jostling to line themselves with the new president. You see, he won't belong to eiother side, he will belong to the American people.

I'm so excited just thinking about what the moment would be like to watch how fast this country would begin (faster than any legislation ever did) to change. Bob Barr would be a true arbitraitor. No party favorites. No pals. No collusion! How fascinating woulod it be to see government overseen by a real non-biused president. How fast do you think politicians would be waffling around trying to show how THEY were on the side of the average American..........like the president is! You can't tell me that you wouldn't be tingling. And if you would......you need to be voting for Bob Barr.

Brother, we need to take our country back. You're a Libertarian and you know it in your heart. Millions of Americans are, but they like you have indicated are afraid they will waste their vote, or cost one of the candidates the election........Who gives a shit! It's time man.

What if the Republicans do lose 15 or so % of their votes. What do think the GOP would do then? Well, for starters they would stop this "acting like democrats spending shit", they woulod take a stand on civil liberty. America will survive 4 years of Barack Obama my friend. We survived the depression. WW2, the 70's and the cold war, we'll survive that fuckstick! In the meantine, the Republican Party will wake up and get back to the party of small government, liberty and freedom.

A forest fire might be just what they need to rebirth. Look what happens in the forest after a fire!

[manu1959]

I want to discuss it with you more, but im too tired right now, so please educate me, and we'll discuss here and in pm's tommorrow ok?

personally I think a vote for either douche bag is a vote for status quo, both parties have been failing our country for OVER 40 YEARS!

since 1960....interesting..... there have been at least two maybe three major economic expansions.....and at least three major world changing events.....all of which improved the quality of life around the world.....

[DragonStryk72]

since 1960....interesting..... there have been at least two maybe three major economic expansions.....and at least three major world changing events.....all of which improved the quality of life around the world.....

But, to balance that out, the roots of the current problems were sown there as well. Korea, Vietnam, The cold war, the red scare, the blacklisting of "communist sympathizers". Heck we seem to have been taking a swing back toward McCarthyism the past few years.

It was definitely a Hyperbole, but there are the beginnings of the problems in that time frame.

[Psychoblues]

What is this? An Ayn Rand clusterfuck? Really guys, it's rather boring. Know what I mean?

[Sitarro]

What is this? An Ayn Rand clusterfuck? Really guys, it's rather boring. Know what I mean?

So you don't "get" Ayn Rand either? I'm rereading The Fountainhead for the fourth time, outstanding mind. Having lived under the oversized thumb of communism, she truly understands, with disgust, the destructiveness of the collectivist mindset and what it does to creativity and every other thing that makes humans great.

Hopefully if Hollywood ever does try to do Atlas Shrugged, it will be done by people that understand her and her philosophies. It would have to be a series on HBO that would last a year........ actually I don't think Hollywood could possibly handle it.

[Psychoblues]

If that ever happens, zero, I swear I'll shoot the TV, HD or not, and probably disown every member of my family that would ever speak her worthless name.


So you don't "get" Ayn Rand either? I'm rereading The Fountainhead for the fourth time, outstanding mind. Having lived under the oversized thumb of communism, she truly understands, with disgust, the destructiveness of the collectivist mindset and what it does to creativity and every other thing that makes humans great.

Hopefully if Hollywood ever does try to do Atlas Shrugged, it will be done by people that understand her and her philosophies. It would have to be a series on HBO that would last a year........ actually I don't think Hollywood could possibly handle it.

As you might surmise, zero, I am no fan of Ayn Rand. And I have good reasons for my attitude towards her!!!!!!!!!! Why don't you start an Ayn Rand thread? I think it would be at least entertaining, unlike her pitiful books?!?!?!?!?!????!?!

Self Indulgence: :salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

[Sitarro]

If that ever happens, zero, I swear I'll shoot the TV, HD or not, and probably disown every member of my family that would ever speak her worthless name.



As you might surmise, zero, I am no fan of Ayn Rand. And I have good reasons for my attitude towards her!!!!!!!!!! Why don't you start an Ayn Rand thread? I think it would be at least entertaining, unlike her pitiful books?!?!?!?!?!????!?!

Self Indulgence: :salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

She's dead psycho, no reason to continue fearing her, a strong intelligent woman that no doubt laughed at that joke called the feminist movement...... I understand why you are afraid of her but really, she can't hurt you anymore.:laugh2:

[Psychoblues]

Afraid of her? For what reason would I be "afraid" of her, zero?



She's dead psycho, no reason to continue fearing her, a strong intelligent woman that no doubt laughed at that joke called the feminist movement...... I understand why you are afraid of her but really, she can't hurt you anymore.:laugh2:

Your admiration explains plenty to me. Thanks for the heads up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hit it Ayn Rand, I Love Selfish: :salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

[emmett]

Where did you get the pictures of my sisters?

[actsnoblemartin]

what issue?

Illegal aliens

secondarily, the war in iraq

[actsnoblemartin]

What is this? An Ayn Rand clusterfuck? Really guys, it's rather boring. Know what I mean?


who is ayn rand?

:poke:

[DragonStryk72]

who is ayn rand?

:poke:

Author of Atlas Shrugged, most notably.

[DragonStryk72]

Illegal aliens

secondarily, the war in iraq

Alright, well, this is the forum for questions, so shoot?

[actsnoblemartin]

what is the position of the l.p. on illegals.

I say send their asses home, shoot to kill, all illegals trying to sneak in

shut down all businesses knowlingly hiring them, put those hiring them in jail a long time, and fine them up the ass

call me whatever you want

Its time to save america,

and im not seeing the l.p. as being tough enough on this issue

and this is the main reason, i have not joined the l.p. party yet


Alright, well, this is the forum for questions, so shoot?

[actsnoblemartin]

convince me, that never intervening is a good idea, the u.s. and the world allowed 6 million jews to be gassed, hung, shot, and mutilated, and worse

because they didnt care, why shouldnt the u.s. and the world stop genocide.

for the record, i dont want the u.s. being the worlds policemen, and i want them to stay out of it, but i think my question is still valied

and why should we pull all our troops out of iraq now, and the l.p. wants and our troops out of the entire world?


Alright, well, this is the forum for questions, so shoot?

[emmett]

convince me, that never intervening is a good idea, the u.s. and the world allowed 6 million jews to be gassed, hung, shot, and mutilated, and worse

because they didnt care, why shouldnt the u.s. and the world stop genocide.

for the record, i dont want the u.s. being the worlds policemen, and i want them to stay out of it, but i think my question is still valied

and why should we pull all our troops out of iraq now, and the l.p. wants and our troops out of the entire world?

It is always easier to concentrate on negative than positive. I explained to you Martin in another thread that I do not agree with every single aspect of the LP agenda. I do not support abortion, however I feel strongly enough about Freedom to choose to allow myself not to be overwhelmed by something I cannot change.

As for illegal aliens, ENFORCE THE DAMN LAW! I've been saying that oin here for years. I was against that area of the platform when I joined the LP in the 80's. They were for complete open borders back then. (Incidentally, I don't believe in shooting them). You saying that means you would have supported Germany's right to kill jews in the 30's and 40's. Think about it for a minute son.

Nothing is perfect Martin. Even ice cream on Apple Pie melts too fast. The Libertarian philosophy of not being the world's police officer does not mean that we would never advocate defending another nation. And frankly, it is time to begin a withdrawl from Iraq. I mean if we attacked every rogue dictator and facist regime in the world we would have to sidestep them to Cuba, Venuzeula and many stops in Africa before they could return. National defense needs to be exactly that. Defense! Not Offense! We can't solve the world's problems, we have enough problems here at home.

Martin, I sometimes think you are searching for a perfect answer. There is not one. Libertarians however possess the clearest resemblence to what our forefathers envisioned for our country. Absolute Personal Liberty and Freedom from the tyrany experienced ny many other countries throughout the world. It starts sometimes in simplicity, a little control here, a little regulation there, and ends with property rights being taken by government, lives being controlled and government making every decision in your life. It comes disguised as a social platform of protection out our citizens such as with airport security, welfare and eminant domain. Once Liberty is compromised, there is no end to it.

The majority might be the majority but I (I) am an individual, soveriegn American citizen. I have certain inalienable rights to liberty, the pursuit of happiness and freedom. If I want pink shutters on my house then I'll paint the fuckers pink and you have no damn right to tell me I can't even if you get the entirte neighborhood to vote against me. This is what I mean. The analogy of pink shutters might be a bit quirky but you see my point I'm sure.

As mentioned I am not a supporter of gay rights in theory but as a Libertarian I must concede to it. Absolute Liberty Martin! That is what our soldiers fought and died for son. When they spit their last breath out on a field somewhere in some strange land to defend our rights and freedoms they were seriously protecting my rights, as defined in the (now watered down) Bill of Rights.

Compromise is something that we will always have to do in anything. The Libertarian Party platform isn't perfect, but it is a darn sight better than what these two powerhouses have done to our system of government. You know this and so does every wise minded thinker on this board. The problem is, people have fear. They fear real change. They make good points. A vote for a Libertarian may cost John Mccain the Presidency. It night! But if it gets the republican party back on the track of smaller government, individual liberty and freedom then it has served the better overall good and is the responsible thing to do. I believe it, I have believed it for 28 years. I will vote Libertarian, I will be proud of it and I will not waver........PERIOD!

Because of my "radical" beliefs you may notice that I have started to become ignored by some of my old friends here on the board. Where as I used to be a funny practical joker that brought some emphasis to certain issues with a little humor, I am not joking about this subject. I have had a little more in you r face approach this election season and wa-lah, I'm ignored. It's OK. I don't mind. It is their conscious that bothers them, not me! Every logical thinking American knows that the things that Libertarians say is true, they just figure that the complication of the issues requires more compromise of their liberty than Libertarians are willing to make. There were a group of Americans that convened in a little room in Philidelphia a long time ago Martin who had the same views as Libertarians today. They had compromised enough and were ready to risk it all to do something about it. I am also willing to do the same if necessary, BUT.....I compromise. You see, given the state of things, it might take a little living under the democrats to make conservatives understand that their party became too much like the democrats, big spenders, stopped being fiscally responsible and allowed laws to be written that infringed on the most basic civil liberty of Americans. Search and seizure for example, our ridiculous taxation system and the pork spending of almost every lawmaker, blue and red. It's criminal martin, criminal!

So......you go on thinking of reasons not to vote Libertarian if you want to. I can assure you this, when you have to call and ask if you can go outside, you be damn sorry! And don't think that won't happen. When I was a youngster I was travelling with my grandparents one weekend when my grandpa pulled off the road for us to make a pit stop. He and I had walked off the road a small piece to do our business and walked up to a fence that had a sign on it that read "US Government Property, No Trespassing". I thought he was gonna have a cow. He got back in the old wagon and told my grandma,"Nola, there was a sign back there that said no trespassing on govenrment property. Have you ever heard of such a thing." I have remembered that all my life. It is actually one of the few things I CAN remember from those years in the early 60's other than JFK being shot and watching my first TV show in 1963. We got a TV for Christmas in 1963. We listened to radio before then. My grandfather would have a shit fit about eminant domain.

The problem is, we accept these changes. As a soveriegn citizen of the United States of America you own this country, every friggin inch of it. You have the right to go wherever you should choose to and never be told otherwise so long as it does impede on another's right to do the same.

I know alot of bloviators come on here and quote this famous person and that one, I don't like to do that but I do quote one regularly, maybe not ver batim but it goes like this. He who is willing to sacrifice his liberty in an effort to acheive security...deserves neither. Benjamin Franklin.

I don't dislike either presidential candidate. I love John McCain. He was a great Naval hero. He stood in the face of his enemy and damned him. He resisted against interrogation tactics that were unthinkable. He survived broken bones, a botched surgery and torture for 6 years.......and yes he broke and said some things over a loud speaker that were forced on him by those little bastards. SO WHAT! But that does not qualify hiom to be president. He is a waffler. Barack Obama is a living example of how great this country is and how far it has came in the eyes of liberty. He is inexperienced and lacks conviction. He represents a poor platform of taking from those that do......and giving to those that don't. He believes in government regulate this, and government regulate that. Bob Barr is a conservative Libertarian who has come of age. He is better qualified to be president than either of the men who represent the biggies. Had Bob Barr run for president in 2000 he would have recieved the support of the Republicans hands down that now fear he will cost JM votes. He will cost votes, but he will cost both sides.

OK Martin, there you go. My part is done!

[actsnoblemartin]

Very well thought out, i am impressed :clap:


It is always easier to concentrate on negative than positive. I explained to you Martin in another thread that I do not agree with every single aspect of the LP agenda. I do not support abortion, however I feel strongly enough about Freedom to choose to allow myself not to be overwhelmed by something I cannot change.

As for illegal aliens, ENFORCE THE DAMN LAW! I've been saying that oin here for years. I was against that area of the platform when I joined the LP in the 80's. They were for complete open borders back then. (Incidentally, I don't believe in shooting them). You saying that means you would have supported Germany's right to kill jews in the 30's and 40's. Think about it for a minute son.

with all due respect, i hate this analogy because its not true at all, jews were legal citizens of their european countries while illegal aliens came to this country illegally. There is a huge difference.

I dont see how anyone can compare the two


Nothing is perfect Martin. Even ice cream on Apple Pie melts too fast. The Libertarian philosophy of not being the world's police officer does not mean that we would never advocate defending another nation. And frankly, it is time to begin a withdrawl from Iraq. I mean if we attacked every rogue dictator and facist regime in the world we would have to sidestep them to Cuba, Venuzeula and many stops in Africa before they could return. National defense needs to be exactly that. Defense! Not Offense! We can't solve the world's problems, we have enough problems here at home.

Martin, I sometimes think you are searching for a perfect answer. There is not one. Libertarians however possess the clearest resemblence to what our forefathers envisioned for our country. Absolute Personal Liberty and Freedom from the tyrany experienced ny many other countries throughout the world. It starts sometimes in simplicity, a little control here, a little regulation there, and ends with property rights being taken by government, lives being controlled and government making every decision in your life. It comes disguised as a social platform of protection out our citizens such as with airport security, welfare and eminant domain. Once Liberty is compromised, there is no end to it.

The majority might be the majority but I (I) am an individual, soveriegn American citizen. I have certain inalienable rights to liberty, the pursuit of happiness and freedom. If I want pink shutters on my house then I'll paint the fuckers pink and you have no damn right to tell me I can't even if you get the entirte neighborhood to vote against me. This is what I mean. The analogy of pink shutters might be a bit quirky but you see my point I'm sure.

As mentioned I am not a supporter of gay rights in theory but as a Libertarian I must concede to it. Absolute Liberty Martin! That is what our soldiers fought and died for son. When they spit their last breath out on a field somewhere in some strange land to defend our rights and freedoms they were seriously protecting my rights, as defined in the (now watered down) Bill of Rights.

Compromise is something that we will always have to do in anything. The Libertarian Party platform isn't perfect, but it is a darn sight better than what these two powerhouses have done to our system of government. You know this and so does every wise minded thinker on this board. The problem is, people have fear. They fear real change. They make good points. A vote for a Libertarian may cost John Mccain the Presidency. It night! But if it gets the republican party back on the track of smaller government, individual liberty and freedom then it has served the better overall good and is the responsible thing to do. I believe it, I have believed it for 28 years. I will vote Libertarian, I will be proud of it and I will not waver........PERIOD!

Because of my "radical" beliefs you may notice that I have started to become ignored by some of my old friends here on the board. Where as I used to be a funny practical joker that brought some emphasis to certain issues with a little humor, I am not joking about this subject. I have had a little more in you r face approach this election season and wa-lah, I'm ignored. It's OK. I don't mind. It is their conscious that bothers them, not me! Every logical thinking American knows that the things that Libertarians say is true, they just figure that the complication of the issues requires more compromise of their liberty than Libertarians are willing to make. There were a group of Americans that convened in a little room in Philidelphia a long time ago Martin who had the same views as Libertarians today. They had compromised enough and were ready to risk it all to do something about it. I am also willing to do the same if necessary, BUT.....I compromise. You see, given the state of things, it might take a little living under the democrats to make conservatives understand that their party became too much like the democrats, big spenders, stopped being fiscally responsible and allowed laws to be written that infringed on the most basic civil liberty of Americans. Search and seizure for example, our ridiculous taxation system and the pork spending of almost every lawmaker, blue and red. It's criminal martin, criminal!

so true

So......you go on thinking of reasons not to vote Libertarian if you want to.

thats not what this was about, i just wanted answers, and discussion. I could never vote democrat, i wont vote republican, but i really liked the libertarian platform, except for a couple of issues, and im glad you mentored me on this issue, thanks

:salute:

I will be voting for bob barr

I can assure you this, when you have to call and ask if you can go outside, you be damn sorry! And don't think that won't happen. When I was a youngster I was travelling with my grandparents one weekend when my grandpa pulled off the road for us to make a pit stop. He and I had walked off the road a small piece to do our business and walked up to a fence that had a sign on it that read "US Government Property, No Trespassing". I thought he was gonna have a cow. He got back in the old wagon and told my grandma,"Nola, there was a sign back there that said no trespassing on govenrment property. Have you ever heard of such a thing." I have remembered that all my life. It is actually one of the few things I CAN remember from those years in the early 60's other than JFK being shot and watching my first TV show in 1963. We got a TV for Christmas in 1963. We listened to radio before then. My grandfather would have a shit fit about eminant domain.

The problem is, we accept these changes. As a soveriegn citizen of the United States of America you own this country, every friggin inch of it. You have the right to go wherever you should choose to and never be told otherwise so long as it does impede on another's right to do the same.

I know alot of bloviators come on here and quote this famous person and that one, I don't like to do that but I do quote one regularly, maybe not ver batim but it goes like this. He who is willing to sacrifice his liberty in an effort to acheive security...deserves neither. Benjamin Franklin.

I don't dislike either presidential candidate. I love John McCain. He was a great Naval hero. He stood in the face of his enemy and damned him. He resisted against interrogation tactics that were unthinkable. He survived broken bones, a botched surgery and torture for 6 years.......and yes he broke and said some things over a loud speaker that were forced on him by those little bastards. SO WHAT! But that does not qualify hiom to be president. He is a waffler. Barack Obama is a living example of how great this country is and how far it has came in the eyes of liberty. He is inexperienced and lacks conviction. He represents a poor platform of taking from those that do......and giving to those that don't. He believes in government regulate this, and government regulate that. Bob Barr is a conservative Libertarian who has come of age. He is better qualified to be president than either of the men who represent the biggies. Had Bob Barr run for president in 2000 he would have recieved the support of the Republicans hands down that now fear he will cost JM votes. He will cost votes, but he will cost both sides.

OK Martin, there you go. My part is done!

[actsnoblemartin]

Im officially going to convert to libertarian, with my voting registrar. tomorrow

[DragonStryk72]

Now, as far as the LP's actual stance on illegals, well, it's one of the few areas our federal government actually has a specific responsibility to put a hand in. We have to have borders that are secure, it's just facts.

The sad fact is that it is our own overabundant government that allows the illegals to thrive. I mean, what, we didn't have laws against this 20 years ago? We did, but like Emmett said, we have to enforce the laws we already have. We have too many laws at this stage as is, we don't need more, but it sure does look like progress when a politician signs a bill on TV, doesn't it?

Watch any candidate going up for office this year, and make a note every time that they actually lay out a plan for all the promises they make. Obama is doing and saying what it takes to get the big chair, same as McCain.

No party is going to get it all right, but I'm more confident in Liberty than I am in any other message. "He who governs best, governs least", "I would rather attend the problems of too much liberty, than too little".

In the end, we don't need them... they need us, though.

[emmett]

Now, as far as the LP's actual stance on illegals, well, it's one of the few areas our federal government actually has a specific responsibility to put a hand in. We have to have borders that are secure, it's just facts.

The sad fact is that it is our own overabundant government that allows the illegals to thrive. I mean, what, we didn't have laws against this 20 years ago? We did, but like Emmett said, we have to enforce the laws we already have. We have too many laws at this stage as is, we don't need more, but it sure does look like progress when a politician signs a bill on TV, doesn't it?

Watch any candidate going up for office this year, and make a note every time that they actually lay out a plan for all the promises they make. Obama is doing and saying what it takes to get the big chair, same as McCain.

No party is going to get it all right, but I'm more confident in Liberty than I am in any other message. "He who governs best, governs least", "I would rather attend the problems of too much liberty, than too little".

In the end, we don't need them... they need us, though.

You really are a sick ass radical libertarian aren't you? :laugh2: :clap:

[DragonStryk72]

You really are a sick ass radical libertarian aren't you? :laugh2: :clap:

Yeah, I definitely need help :laugh2:

[Gaffer]

At every presidential election time I always see two evils to vote for and have to vote for the lesser of the two. Same is happening this time around, but in this case its a real serious problem.

I view the LP as another evil. They have many things I don't agree with and I'm NOT willing to compromise. So I can go with Barr, or I can go with McCain. With Barr there is no win. Just a statement from my part that I don't like the other two parties. And it takes away from McCain's chances of winning.

So do I vote for the lesser of two evils with McCain and Barr and allow obamanation to take control of the country, just to show the repubs and hope they will get the message and change their ways? Four years of the obamanation will destroy this country. I have no doubt of that. And I am not about to vote one way to make a point. Much as I don't care for McCain's policies. I can't bring myself to vote for Barr because of the threat the obamanation means to this country.

If the dems were running a more centrist figure I would be inclined to go with Barr and make a statement. But they are not. They are running a ultra-liberal communist who's in the pocket of george soros and moveon. This is not the time for making statements. The LP needs to spend this year getting into congress with more than just a couple of seats.

[Dilloduck]

At every presidential election time I always see two evils to vote for and have to vote for the lesser of the two. Same is happening this time around, but in this case its a real serious problem.

I view the LP as another evil. They have many things I don't agree with and I'm NOT willing to compromise. So I can go with Barr, or I can go with McCain. With Barr there is no win. Just a statement from my part that I don't like the other two parties. And it takes away from McCain's chances of winning.

So do I vote for the lesser of two evils with McCain and Barr and allow obamanation to take control of the country, just to show the repubs and hope they will get the message and change their ways? Four years of the obamanation will destroy this country. I have no doubt of that. And I am not about to vote one way to make a point. Much as I don't care for McCain's policies. I can't bring myself to vote for Barr because of the threat the obamanation means to this country.

If the dems were running a more centrist figure I would be inclined to go with Barr and make a statement. But they are not. They are running a ultra-liberal communist who's in the pocket of george soros and moveon. This is not the time for making statements. The LP needs to spend this year getting into congress with more than just a couple of seats.

Obama is going to run on race and is a shoe in. Vote for whoever you think would make the best president of America.

[DragonStryk72]

At every presidential election time I always see two evils to vote for and have to vote for the lesser of the two. Same is happening this time around, but in this case its a real serious problem.

I view the LP as another evil. They have many things I don't agree with and I'm NOT willing to compromise. So I can go with Barr, or I can go with McCain. With Barr there is no win. Just a statement from my part that I don't like the other two parties. And it takes away from McCain's chances of winning.

So do I vote for the lesser of two evils with McCain and Barr and allow obamanation to take control of the country, just to show the repubs and hope they will get the message and change their ways? Four years of the obamanation will destroy this country. I have no doubt of that. And I am not about to vote one way to make a point. Much as I don't care for McCain's policies. I can't bring myself to vote for Barr because of the threat the obamanation means to this country.

If the dems were running a more centrist figure I would be inclined to go with Barr and make a statement. But they are not. They are running a ultra-liberal communist who's in the pocket of george soros and moveon. This is not the time for making statements. The LP needs to spend this year getting into congress with more than just a couple of seats.

Problem being, how do they get in with the exact opinion you're espousing here? If no one takes the party seriously, or doesn't vote for it because "they have no chance" (Which is crap, as our founders were Libertarians, and ran the county quite well given the circumstances), then there's no chance for anything.

Now, as to the other point, what parts do you have a problem with as far as the LP?

[No1tovote4]

In the name of "pragmatism" the Libertarian party decided to select an uber-religious conservative to gain votes away from McCain. I wouldn't vote Libertarian this year BECAUSE I strongly support the platform of the party. I don't need religious nannyism any more than I need the government to tell me what kind of helmet I have to wear. That it is presented in a Libertarian package doesn't change the reality that Barr is NOT Libertarian.

[Gaffer]

Problem being, how do they get in with the exact opinion you're espousing here? If no one takes the party seriously, or doesn't vote for it because "they have no chance" (Which is crap, as our founders were Libertarians, and ran the county quite well given the circumstances), then there's no chance for anything.

Now, as to the other point, what parts do you have a problem with as far as the LP?

They need numbers. I don't hold much with polls but they need to have some decent showing in polls that tell me there is a real interest and possibility of winning for me to consider them.

They have no chance of winning, so my voting for them is just a statement, this is not the year to make statements. Similar statements were made in 92 and we got clinton.

I don't like their stance on borders, drugs, abortion, defense. Just to name a few off the top of my head.

[glockmail]

It is my sole purpose until November, and at all other times actually to educate folks as to why the LP is better for America than the two clusterfucks we have in power. Anyone care to debate it?

The time to champion a third party- or any fringe candidate - is during the primary season. Now is the time to get behind the least liberal, or more consrvative, and vote for him.

[DragonStryk72]

They need numbers. I don't hold much with polls but they need to have some decent showing in polls that tell me there is a real interest and possibility of winning for me to consider them.

They have no chance of winning, so my voting for them is just a statement, this is not the year to make statements. Similar statements were made in 92 and we got clinton.

I don't like their stance on borders, drugs, abortion, defense. Just to name a few off the top of my head.

Nor was 04, 00, or 96. How much worse before, it's "time"? The worst thing that a libertarian president would do is overextend Liberty, which really isn't such a bad thing.

You're against closed borders? that just seems weird, I mean that's one of the few places the federal government really does need to step in, cause no matter how you look at it, we can't allow the current to tide to keep going. Second, per LP party, abortion is a states rights issue (If you're against it or for it, doesn't matter on the federal level, if your state decides no, then the answer's no), and national defense, as in defending ourselves, not playing SimCity with other countries. As far as drugs, which ones are you referring to? Because, so far, to be honest, Barr hasn't really gone at drugs (neither of the other two have either), but personally, the "war on drugs" has been a colossal failure, so we need to look in a new direction on that.

No, we're not some loony group that thinks the government has no place to do anything, but the federal government needs to focus on its priorities, and let the states run themselves. The NCLB needs to go, along with the fed branch of the department of education.

[DragonStryk72]

The time to champion a third party- or any fringe candidate - is during the primary season. Now is the time to get behind the least liberal, or more conservative, and vote for him.

Glock..... the primaries only put forward the candidates that go up for each party. So, what you're saying is, vote for 3rd parties during the primaries, then abandon your choice of who would be the best candidate, and try and pick the one who sucks less of the two mainstream candidates? Yes, we'll change so much that way, I mean, let's just look at how well that philosophy is working out in this country. Crap politician after crap politician on both sides, to such a point that the current two could be decided between with a coin flip, and almost no one has any faith left in the government.

Yeah, thanks, I'll stink with my plan.

[glockmail]

Glock..... the primaries only put forward the candidates that go up for each party. So, what you're saying is, vote for 3rd parties during the primaries, then abandon your choice of who would be the best candidate, and try and pick the one who sucks less of the two mainstream candidates? Yes, we'll change so much that way, I mean, let's just look at how well that philosophy is working out in this country. Crap politician after crap politician on both sides, to such a point that the current two could be decided between with a coin flip, and almost no one has any faith left in the government.

Yeah, thanks, I'll stink with my plan.

You won't change a thing by supporting the Libertarian candidate, and you may make things worse. As much as I like Barr I won't be voting for him. Any conservative who does shall front a portion of the blame if Obama wins. That's a fact, no matter how unpleasant it is and how much you want to deny it.

I sent a message to McCain during the NC primary by voting for Keyes. Where was Barr during the primary? Heck- where was Thompson? From what I can tell McCain’s moved right so maybe he was listening to folks like me.

[Gaffer]

Nor was 04, 00, or 96. How much worse before, it's "time"? The worst thing that a libertarian president would do is overextend Liberty, which really isn't such a bad thing.

You're against closed borders? that just seems weird, I mean that's one of the few places the federal government really does need to step in, cause no matter how you look at it, we can't allow the current to tide to keep going. Second, per LP party, abortion is a states rights issue (If you're against it or for it, doesn't matter on the federal level, if your state decides no, then the answer's no), and national defense, as in defending ourselves, not playing SimCity with other countries. As far as drugs, which ones are you referring to? Because, so far, to be honest, Barr hasn't really gone at drugs (neither of the other two have either), but personally, the "war on drugs" has been a colossal failure, so we need to look in a new direction on that.

No, we're not some loony group that thinks the government has no place to do anything, but the federal government needs to focus on its priorities, and let the states run themselves. The NCLB needs to go, along with the fed branch of the department of education.

I am for closing the borders and enforcing ALL the laws concerning illegal aliens. I may have misread something concerning LP's stand on the borders. My understanding was they wanted open borders. If they don't I stand corrected.

The best defense is a good offense. That has always been the case and I prefer taking war to our enemies instead of them bringing it to us. No war should ever be fought on our shores. If building a new country in our image is what it takes to secure our peace then we need to do just that.

The primary platform of the LP since the 60's has been the freedom to do drugs. Making ALL drugs legal. The war on drugs has failed because it has been gone at piece meal. Like everything else the government does.

There are things the LP stand for I agree with. And important ones I don't. And right now we have a serious threat to this country in the form of an ultra-left communist. If you think you have less freedoms right now, just let him get in there with a lib congress.

[emmett]

I am for closing the borders and enforcing ALL the laws concerning illegal aliens. I may have misread something concerning LP's stand on the borders. My understanding was they wanted open borders. If they don't I stand corrected.

LIBERTARIANS ADJUSTED THEIR PLATFORM CONCERNING OPEN BORDERS. THAT WAS BEFORE THE LAST PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

The best defense is a good offense. That has always been the case and I prefer taking war to our enemies instead of them bringing it to us. No war should ever be fought on our shores. If building a new country in our image is what it takes to secure our peace then we need to do just that.

The primary platform of the LP since the 60's has been the freedom to do drugs. Making ALL drugs legal. The war on drugs has failed because it has been gone at piece meal. Like everything else the government does.

THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY WAS NOT FOUNDED UNTIL 1971, JUST SO YOU KNOW.

There are things the LP stand for I agree with. And important ones I don't. And right now we have a serious threat to this country in the form of an ultra-left communist. If you think you have less freedoms right now, just let him get in there with a lib congress.


The LP also stands for NO IRS! How do you like that idea?

Abolish Current Eminant Domain laws.

Return more control to states, counties and coher of communities.

Shrink Federal Government. Do you really think either of the two clusterfucks want to do that?

Legalizing drugs would all but eliminate drug murder, which woulod reduce the murder rate considerably. Not to mention black on black murder. Ut oh, I made a race statement.

No snooping in your personal business.

Rid ourselves of the SS nightmare and start a real savings plan for retirement.

Get government out of businesses.




These are several more good reasons to vote for the LP then either of the two majors. You are right, unless people wake the fuck up, we won't win. But stairs are climbed one step at a time. We will survive Obama. Better than that, this country probably needs a dose of that to ice the pre-Libertarian cake.

[Sitarro]

TWe will survive Obama. Better than that, this country probably needs a dose of that to ice the pre-Libertarian cake.

Uh Oh, looks like the cat has been let out of the bag. So this is the strategy? Pull enough votes away from McCain to assure an Obama win which will screw up the country so bad that the Libers will actually be able to get more than 6% of the vote....... pretty weak and beginning to sound cultish and Barr reminds me of someone that would lead one...... why does he refer to himself in the third person, doesn't he realize that it makes him sound nuts. I'm taking the vote I was going to give them in 2012, back, anyone but!:laugh2:

[emmett]

Uh Oh, looks like the cat has been let out of the bag. So this is the strategy? Pull enough votes away from McCain to assure an Obama win which will screw up the country so bad that the Libers will actually be able to get more than 6% of the vote....... pretty weak and beginning to sound cultish and Barr reminds me of someone that would lead one...... why does he refer to himself in the third person, doesn't he realize that it makes him sound nuts. I'm taking the vote I was going to give them in 2012, back, anyone but!:laugh2:

You know come to think of it, voting for who you think represents the best ideaology of political platform can never be wrong! I believe in a flat tax, less government, more liberty and am tired of watching my country accept your philosophy of voting for a wrong and trying to make it look like a right.

If you choose to label me a cultist, so be it! I am suprised that someone I have always thought so much of on here would stoop tp that terminology sir.

If it is necessary for Americans to be dealt a hand of cards that have Obama, Pelosi, Schumer, Rangel, Kerry and Kennedy included in them to see what the hell they did to this country by agreeing to allow the infringement of our liberty, tax us to death and overgovern our lives, then it is necessary. For you to label the only group of americans with BALLS enough to stand up to it as cultists, shame on you man. Shame, shame, shame.

If you don't like the fact that I am a Libertarian::fu:

[Sitarro]

You know come to think of it, voting for who you think represents the best ideaology of political platform can never be wrong! I believe in a flat tax, less government, more liberty and am tired of watching my country accept your philosophy of voting for a wrong and trying to make it look like a right.

If you choose to label me a cultist, so be it! I am suprised that someone I have always thought so much of on here would stoop tp that terminology sir.

If it is necessary for Americans to be dealt a hand of cards that have Obama, Pelosi, Schumer, Rangel, Kerry and Kennedy included in them to see what the hell they did to this country by agreeing to allow the infringement of our liberty, tax us to death and overgovern our lives, then it is necessary. For you to label the only group of americans with BALLS enough to stand up to it as cultists, shame on you man. Shame, shame, shame.

If you don't like the fact that I am a Libertarian::fu:

I was kidding emmett, that is what the jokester smilie indicates...... your reaction was a bit harsh, don't ya think?

[emmett]

I was kidding emmett, that is what the jokester smilie indicates...... your reaction was a bit harsh, don't ya think?

Yeah, maybe so. Please accept my sincere apology as it appears i over reacted to your statement. I am indeed sorry about that.

Make no mistake about the fact however that I am unwaivering in my commitment to spread the message. You have probably deduced that. Bob Barr is more qualified to represent the common interests of conservatives in America than John McCain. I think you know this is true as does every like minded thinker on the planet. This voting for a lesser of evils thing is tired. We would be better off if every Republican in the US went in and voted for Bob Barr. We would have a better President. One who respected our civil liberties much more than the present two majors.

So I guess you could also say that John MCain is costing Bob Barr votes. Which of these men really....truely.....represents your core beliefs more closely. Be honest. It's not an electability question. It is a direct question about you and the person who represents your hearfelt beliefs about what is right for America.

I know your answer I think, I just wanted to get you thinking.


Bob Barr would be better for American conservatives than John McCain. The fact that he represents the Libertarian Party and not the Republicans is what would stop folks for voting for him. What a fucked up system.

[Gaffer]

Yeah, maybe so. Please accept my sincere apology as it appears i over reacted to your statement. I am indeed sorry about that.

Make no mistake about the fact however that I am unwaivering in my commitment to spread the message. You have probably deduced that. Bob Barr is more qualified to represent the common interests of conservatives in America than John McCain. I think you know this is true as does every like minded thinker on the planet. This voting for a lesser of evils thing is tired. We would be better off if every Republican in the US went in and voted for Bob Barr. We would have a better President. One who respected our civil liberties much more than the present two majors.

So I guess you could also say that John MCain is costing Bob Barr votes. Which of these men really....truely.....represents your core beliefs more closely. Be honest. It's not an electability question. It is a direct question about you and the person who represents your hearfelt beliefs about what is right for America.

I know your answer I think, I just wanted to get you thinking.


Bob Barr would be better for American conservatives than John McCain. The fact that he represents the Libertarian Party and not the Republicans is what would stop folks for voting for him. What a fucked up system.

I'm voting against obamanation. That's where my vote is going. I hate to have to vote that way but the reality is. If obamanation gets into office it will ruin if not destroy this country. Beside his own ineptitude, he will bring with him those hangers on. Include many that are currently under the bus. They will entrench themselves in washington and it will take decades to get them out. Some are really dangerous people. There are still carter and Reagan appointees running departments in washington.

We vote for a lot more than just the one man. And one man can do a hell of a lot of damage in 4 years. The dem party has morphed into a monster that I will never support on any issue. If they were reasonable and similar to the old dem party I would consider going with a third party and could endorse a great experiment where it doesn't matter who gets in. But that is not the case this time around.

If I vote my heart and mind it is to defeat obamanation. Ten percent of the country voting for Barr will not do that. Those voters are just taking away the conservative vote allowing the stupid, the ignorant and the sheeple to put their obamanation into power.

Much as I agree with a lot that you say Emmett I can't throw away my vote. If Barr doesn't show a 40% in the polls then I am not voting for him. He's not drawing off liberal voters, he's only drawing conservative.

Making a point is one thing. Throwing away your future to make that point is another.

[5stringJeff]

It seems I missed this thread. But, my two cents:

1. A vote for Barr is a vote against Obama. It is also a vote against McCain. Both of these candidates aer in the race to EXPAND the role of government in our lives. Only Bob Barr wants to decrease the amount of government in our lives. Isn't that what old-school conservatism (not modern "conservatism") is all about?

2. Pragmatism vs. idealism. Since this is how everyone wants to frame the issue, I'll address it. The complaint I hear most often is, 'if we vote for Barr, who can't win, then Obama will win. Therefore, we have to vote for McCain to keep Obama out.' Guess what? McCain is NO BETTER THAN OBAMA. The only difference is the areas in which the two candidates want to expand the government's reach. With Obama, it's higher taxes and more government in health care; with McCain, it's a continued "America to the rescue" foreign policy and more money spent on war with Iran, North Korea, Georgia, or whoever pisses McCain off that week (which, BTW, is not a hard thing to do, given McCain's notorious temper). So there is no "pragmatic vote." There is only voting for freedom (Barr) or voting against freedom (Obama, McCain).

3. The Catch-22. I keep hearing, "Barr can't win, he doesn't have the numbers." And how does Barr "get the numbers?" By people committing to vote for him! As shown above, voting for either Obama or McCain is voting against the principles of small government, so why not instead vote on principle?

[crin63]

If the role of government is to protect life as stated in the LP platform how does the LP reconcile not protecting the unborn? Doesn't that make the LP a pro-choice party not a pro-life party.

[Gaffer]

A vote for Bob Barr is a thrown away vote that allows obamanation to get into office. The same way clinton got into office. You forget history again.

Barr will only get votes from the conservative and ultra right. He can not draw enough votes to even be a challenge. Your willing to sell out the country to the obamanation to make a point, or to punish the repubs.

I'm not a big fan of McCain. But, obamanation scares me. Barr is a waste of my vote, and to be truthful, he scares me too. I will use common sense in my voting and vote for the lesser of three evils. I may not like McCain as a choice, but he doesn't scare me.

[5stringJeff]

If the role of government is to protect life as stated in the LP platform how does the LP reconcile not protecting the unborn? Doesn't that make the LP a pro-choice party not a pro-life party.

Unfortunately (and Abbey and I have had this same discussion) the LP's stance is, 'Abortion is a really controversial subject, so we'll just be pro-choice.' I personally believe that the right to life supersedes the liberty to take life, whether the person in question is born (e.g. in cases of murder) or unborn (e.g. in cases of abortion).

[5stringJeff]

A vote for Bob Barr is a thrown away vote that allows obamanation to get into office. The same way clinton got into office. You forget history again.

Barr will only get votes from the conservative and ultra right. He can not draw enough votes to even be a challenge. Your willing to sell out the country to the obamanation to make a point, or to punish the repubs.

I'm not a big fan of McCain. But, obamanation scares me. Barr is a waste of my vote, and to be truthful, he scares me too. I will use common sense in my voting and vote for the lesser of three evils. I may not like McCain as a choice, but he doesn't scare me.

First, a vote for Barr is exactly that: a vote for Barr. If someone is unhappy with all the Presidential candidates, I would sugggest that he not vote at all.

Second, Barr will certainly get a lot of conservative/libertarian votes (that's where I'm coming from, after all), but the Libertarian Party as a whole is supporting him as their candidate. Not every LP member is happy with his nomination, just as not every Dem or Republican is happy with their party's choice, but nevertheless, Barr is the LP nominee, not an independent conservative.

Third, I am not "selling out the country" or the GOP. I'm voting for the candidate I think will be the best President and make the best policies. I don't think McCain is that man, I think it's Barr. I can say that Barr will err on the side of liberty; I cannot say that about any candidate of either major party, save for Ron Paul. And as far as punishing the GOP, they lost my vote when they decided to abandon their principles of small government.

[Ultra]

You trash your vote with the duopoly candidates only. Not a dime's worth of difference between those two bought and paid for SOB's.

:bang3:

[emmett]

If a person is a Libertarian and votes for a Republican because they are trying to keep a democrat from being elected.....they are throwing away their vote!

[Gaffer]

If a person is a Libertarian and votes for a Republican because they are trying to keep a democrat from being elected.....they are throwing away their vote!

How about if it's to keep a communist from being elected?

[actsnoblemartin]

I still believe society has the right to decide what is appropriate dress, conduct, etc.

are we free to do whatever we want? :coffee:

im torn between the constitution party, which i cant figure out a thing about, and the libertarian party which i only half agree with :laugh2:

[actsnoblemartin]

If a person is a Libertarian and votes for a Republican because they are trying to keep a democrat from being elected.....they are throwing away their vote!

I agree with you on this one

[emmett]

How about if it's to keep a communist from being elected?

Obama is going to win anyway. If libertarians don't vote their conscious they will be passing by an opportunity to have their vote counted in the right column. It's that simple!

[Kathianne]

Obama is going to win anyway. If libertarians don't vote their conscious they will be passing by an opportunity to have their vote counted in the right column. It's that simple!

No. It's not. Your 'given' is wrong.

[actsnoblemartin]

agreed

and further more

to vote against obama by picking mccain is not the same as picking mccain because you LIKE OR SUPPORT mccain

to vote for the lesser of two evils is STILL evil


If a person is a Libertarian and votes for a Republican because they are trying to keep a democrat from being elected.....they are throwing away their vote!

[DragonStryk72]

If the role of government is to protect life as stated in the LP platform how does the LP reconcile not protecting the unborn? Doesn't that make the LP a pro-choice party not a pro-life party.

Actually, most LP candidates look at a balanced approach to abortion. Yes, legal, but with sensical restrictions (aka, it is not a form of birth control. yes, a person can make a mistake, but there should be no such thing as "regulars" at an abortion clinic.). Certainly it should be allowed in cases of rape, incest, those sorts of things, but in the overall, going purely to one side or the other denies the very real complexities of the issue.

[Psychoblues]

Most of these jerks get their "balanced" approach from Bill O'Really and his circlejerk of a comadreship.

Clear enough?

:salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

[actsnoblemartin]

how do you know :coffee:

I get mine from both cnn and fox news, with the very rare occasional drop of msnbc


Most of these jerks get their "balanced" approach from Bill O'Really and his circlejerk of a comadreship.

Clear enough?

:salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

[emmett]

Most of these jerks get their "balanced" approach from Bill O'Really and his circlejerk of a comadreship.

Clear enough?

:salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:


Ah...........What jerks are you referring to? Libertarians?

[DragonStryk72]

Most of these jerks get their "balanced" approach from Bill O'Really and his circlejerk of a comadreship.

Clear enough?

:salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

Actually, alot of people lump all conservatives into that group, including conservatives themselves (our team would never do that), but when you look at it, being conservative with government means that you can't go purely one way or purely the other, cause neither works.

[actsnoblemartin]

http://www.rootforamerica.com/

And The Winner of the Presidential Debate Was….

There were no winners in the latest Presidential debate. But there was a clear-cut loser: the American taxpayer. While Barack Obama and John McCain argued strongly about a multitude of issues, they never even discussed or debated (or even commented) on the biggest bailout in American history. You know…that $700 billion dollar taxpayer rip-off that was so necessary to our economic survival that in the days since it passed, the U.S. stock market has literally crashed.

Bush, McCain, Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Barney Frank- they all joined hands and cried wolf. “Without the bailout, our economy is doomed, our stock market will plummet” they shrieked. So what do they say now? The market has plummeted hundreds of points SINCE the bailout was approved. We are in a free fall and it is obvious the vote is in: the average American stock investor has rejected the bailout. If I'm not mistaken, I thought I heard all of our politicians hysterically screaming in unison that only a




Actually, alot of people lump all conservatives into that group, including conservatives themselves (our team would never do that), but when you look at it, being conservative with government means that you can't go purely one way or purely the other, cause neither works.

[actsnoblemartin]

http://www.lp.org/news/press-releases/bush-administration-hypes-danger-to-justify-intervention

Bush Administration Hypes Danger to Justify Intervention

"The Bush administration once again misled Americans into believing extreme danger was imminent and extraordinary U.S. government intervention was required to save our country," says Bob Barr, the Libertarian Party's presidential nominee. "And, once again, the intervention of the Bush administration has made things much worse."

"In 2003, the Bush administration said that if we did not act immediately in Iraq, Americans faced imminent threats, and conjured images of mushroom clouds and terror attacks," Barr explains. "Americans, trusting that our government officials knew what they were talking about, went along with the panicked calls for action, only to be bogged down in an occupation of Iraq for the last five years."

[Psychoblues]

Another one bites the dust!!!!!!!!!

:salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

[MtnBiker]

8. l

[Psychoblues]

8. l

Mtnbiker, you forgot to send me the Captain Blueberry decoder ring that you promised!!!!!!!!!!

:cheers2: :beer: :cheers2:

Psychoblues

[actsnoblemartin]

Another one bites the dust!!!!!!!!!

:salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

libertarian and proud

[emmett]

libertarian and proud


Martin.... last week you were a democrat, this week a Libertarian, used to be a republican. With all due respect I would suggest you are an:



:thumb: INDEPENDENT

[actsnoblemartin]

hahaha

but i feel libertarian.


Martin.... last week you were a democrat, this week a Libertarian, used to be a republican. With all due respect I would suggest you are an:



:thumb: INDEPENDENT

[n0spam4me]

I have a suggestion
as a political statement
ALL Voters in this land
Change their registration from Democrat or Republican
to anything but Democrat or Republican

Abandon The Donkey and the Elephant!

anyhow, there is really so little difference between them
They both are pro-big Government and Pro-Big Business (Greed Inc.)

[Little-Acorn]

It is my sole purpose until November, and at all other times actually to educate folks as to why the LP is better for America than the two clusterfucks we have in power. Anyone care to debate it?

I fully agree.

However, I worked my *ss off for the Libertarian party for about seven years back in the 1980s. We got zero, zilch, nada of our members elected (OK, a few lower govt seats, BFD) and were able to forward NONE of our agenda.

I finally concluded that while the agenda and ideals of the Libertarian party were far superior to any other party's (despite some kookiness on the issue of how to remedy present Constitutional violations), I was pouring my efforts down a rat hole with no chance of seeing ANY of those ideals enacted. So I decided to work instead for a party that would get at least some of them enacted. And the Republicans did enact some of them (tax cuts, diminished Federal presence, some Constitutional adherence, increasing roles for state govts, strong national defense).

That "some" has been dwindling over the last decade or so, and has even been heading the other way, though not nearly as fast as the other major U.S. party has. So I may be leaving that party soon - again, I have no interest in pouring my efforts down a rat hole. I'll try to find another party that (a) supports my desires for conservatism, prosperity, afreedom, and responsibility, and (b) has Clue 1 on how to actually get it enacted into law. At present, Point (b) still cuts out the Libertarian party.

[Agnapostate]

How about the anti-libertarian tendencies of the "Libertarian" Party? As opposed to, say, Dejacque or Kropotkin?

[5stringJeff]

How about the anti-libertarian tendencies of the "Libertarian" Party? As opposed to, say, Dejacque or Kropotkin?

Such as?

[emmett]

crickets chirping.................................

[Psychoblues]

If you missed the reference by aggie then you probably would not appreciate the explanation either. Crickets chirping indeed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

[Agnapostate]

Such as?

Sorry, didn't see this before. The most obvious example would be the Libertarian Party's unmitigated support for the authoritarian institutions that evolve through the unchecked establishment of capitalism (since "free markets" are a textbook fantasy), as well as a cult-like obsession with the Austrian school of economics and the general inadequacy of the Misesian approach. This is obviously a distressing perversion of legitimate libertarianism (originally formed by anarcho-socialists), and serves to effectively "unite contradiction."

[AFbombloader]

Martin, I am as hard core a Libertarian as it gets and YES.......I disagree with a few points on the platform. What I do believe in stringer than other issue in any platform, is total liberty. Complete freedom to do what I want, when I want, with absolutely NO government intrusion.

I don't want my property taken to build a mall.

I want to keep as much of my CASH in MY pocket as I want.

I don't want my bank account snooped in.

I want to be equal with ALL Americans, I also want to pay the exact same tax as EVERYONE else.

I want child molesters to fill our prison cells, not marijuana smokers.

I do not want to be randomly stopped and searched for ANY reason.....EVER!

I do not want a social security number......I have a name. With flat tax I won't need one for there will be no reason for the government to keep up with me.

I don't want to register my guns and if someone breaks in my house, I'm going to kill them. I don't think it is fair to prosecute someone for this.

I want to be responsible for myself, my children and grandchildren. I want to make the decisions that are important in their lives, NOT GOVERNMENT! If I choose to spank my child, it is none of their damn business.

I want to be responsible for my families education. I can teach them myself better than the damn government with their system of penalizing smart kids to make them wait on "challanged or neglected" ones.





These are alot of good reasons to be a Libertarian. I don't have to agree with Abortion (which I do not), open homosexuality (which I don't). However in order to acheive COMPLETE liberty, I have to be tolerant. That is the only way.


VOTE LIBARTARIAN! Patrick Henry did, 200 years before there was a LIbertarian Party.

I have been leaning this way for a while now, and you are responsible for a lot of the education I have already had. You and Glenn Beck made me look into this party and realize I am more in line with it than any other. While I don't agree with everything on the platform, I never will with any party. Right now I don't consider myself any party, but I am leaning. I will just call myself a constitutional conservative, with libertarian tendencies.

AF

[5stringJeff]

Sorry, didn't see this before. The most obvious example would be the Libertarian Party's unmitigated support for the authoritarian institutions that evolve through the unchecked establishment of capitalism (since "free markets" are a textbook fantasy), as well as a cult-like obsession with the Austrian school of economics and the general inadequacy of the Misesian approach. This is obviously a distressing perversion of legitimate libertarianism (originally formed by anarcho-socialists), and serves to effectively "unite contradiction."

Exactly which authoritarian institutions evolve when the market is left to its own devices? If a government enforces the rule of law, contract law, etc., and the playing field is level for all players, what is there to complain about?

As far as Austrian economics goes, I think it does an excellent job of explaining behavior - the "social" part of the "social science" of economics.

I would agree that free markets are not anarcho-socialist in nature, but then, I would argue that because anarcho-socialism denies the right to property, it denies its subjects the freedom to own and produce as they best see fit.

[Psychoblues]

SWEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

[emmett]

I have been leaning this way for a while now, and you are responsible for a lot of the education I have already had. You and Glenn Beck made me look into this party and realize I am more in line with it than any other. While I don't agree with everything on the platform, I never will with any party. Right now I don't consider myself any party, but I am leaning. I will just call myself a constitutional conservative, with libertarian tendencies.

AF


Well thank you sir for your kind words. Just merely being mentioned with a great thinker like Glenn Beck in the same sentence is an honor. I would recommend you keep an eye for posts by 5StringJeff as he is way more apt to put things in prospective that is retainable than I.

Libertarians are people who care very deeply about the core values of social and economic freedom in America. They are very dedicated people. While as diverse as any group they have continuity that stems from one very basic interest......freedom for ALL Americans. I've met many civil warriors who are tireless in their effort to restore true freedom to our way of life and will never give up no matter what the voting blocks, polls and newspapers say. People I am so proud to be associated with I could never fiond the words to describe.

Keep at it AFBL, you'll get on that no fly list yet brother!:laugh2:

[Psychoblues]

Uh, emmie............




Well thank you sir for your kind words. Just merely being mentioned with a great thinker like Glenn Beck in the same sentence is an honor. I would recommend you keep an eye for posts by 5StringJeff as he is way more apt to put things in prospective that is retainable than I.

Libertarians are people who care very deeply about the core values of social and economic freedom in America. They are very dedicated people. While as diverse as any group they have continuity that stems from one very basic interest......freedom for ALL Americans. I've met many civil warriors who are tireless in their effort to restore true freedom to our way of life and will never give up no matter what the voting blocks, polls and newspapers say. People I am so proud to be associated with I could never fiond the words to describe.

Keep at it AFBL, you'll get on that no fly list yet brother!:laugh2:

Think you might want to read some of that over again?!?!??!?!?!??!!???!

I already know you're dense but surely you aren't that dumb?!?!?!??!???!??!?!?

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

[crin63]

Well thank you sir for your kind words. Just merely being mentioned with a great thinker like Glenn Beck in the same sentence is an honor. I would recommend you keep an eye for posts by 5StringJeff as he is way more apt to put things in prospective that is retainable than I.

Libertarians are people who care very deeply about the core values of social and economic freedom in America. They are very dedicated people. While as diverse as any group they have continuity that stems from one very basic interest......freedom for ALL Americans. I've met many civil warriors who are tireless in their effort to restore true freedom to our way of life and will never give up no matter what the voting blocks, polls and newspapers say. People I am so proud to be associated with I could never fiond the words to describe.

Keep at it AFBL, you'll get on that no fly list yet brother!:laugh2:

Well said my friend!!! I have become quite a fan of Glenn Beck myself in recent weeks.

Beck/Nugent 2012

[emmett]

Uh, emmie............





Think you might want to read some of that over again?!?!??!?!?!??!!???!

I already know you're dense but surely you aren't that dumb?!?!?!??!???!??!?!?

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues



Hey Davey Boy...... go play somewhere else, we've reached a point where no one is really interested in anything you have to say

[Psychoblues]

Can I quote you on that, emmie?



Hey Davey Boy...... go play somewhere else, we've reached a point where no one is really interested in anything you have to say

You have been discussing me and my attitudes and your intention not to address me for weeks now. What is your problem? Without question even since your horseshit attitude the conversation continues. If you don't want to be a part of it that is only your desicision. Has anyone told you lately that you really suck and you absolutely come across as the liar that you really are?

emmie,,,,,,,,,,,,you are such a freakin' freshman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wut you gonna do now, cowgirl? Neg rep me? That's the general response in these more frank conversations with the idiots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

[DragonStryk72]

I fully agree.

However, I worked my *ss off for the Libertarian party for about seven years back in the 1980s. We got zero, zilch, nada of our members elected (OK, a few lower govt seats, BFD) and were able to forward NONE of our agenda.

I finally concluded that while the agenda and ideals of the Libertarian party were far superior to any other party's (despite some kookiness on the issue of how to remedy present Constitutional violations), I was pouring my efforts down a rat hole with no chance of seeing ANY of those ideals enacted. So I decided to work instead for a party that would get at least some of them enacted. And the Republicans did enact some of them (tax cuts, diminished Federal presence, some Constitutional adherence, increasing roles for state govts, strong national defense).

That "some" has been dwindling over the last decade or so, and has even been heading the other way, though not nearly as fast as the other major U.S. party has. So I may be leaving that party soon - again, I have no interest in pouring my efforts down a rat hole. I'll try to find another party that (a) supports my desires for conservatism, prosperity, afreedom, and responsibility, and (b) has Clue 1 on how to actually get it enacted into law. At present, Point (b) still cuts out the Libertarian party.

The problem is that any change is going to require years of work, because those two bigs parties that have been getting elected in droves have spent all their time and money convincing you and others that they are really the only game in town. Look at it, you only have two things go on in our government: 1. Dem/Rep puts out bill, and then 2. opposing party decries, even if it were something they would have been in favor of 10 years ago.

They're both full of shit, and now, they can't have a 3rd party come in and propose something other than an a or b answer, because then they would have to actually think about what they are doing.

[emmett]

Can I quote you on that, emmie?




You have been discussing me and my attitudes and your intention not to address me for weeks now. What is your problem? Without question even since your horseshit attitude the conversation continues. If you don't want to be a part of it that is only your desicision. Has anyone told you lately that you really suck and you absolutely come across as the liar that you really are?

emmie,,,,,,,,,,,,you are such a freakin' freshman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wut you gonna do now, cowgirl? Neg rep me? That's the general response in these more frank conversations with the idiots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

I don't neg rep David or you would surely know it.

No, no one except you has told me how bad I suck or lie lately....except you.

[Kathianne]

I don't neg rep David or you would surely know it.

No, no one except you has told me how bad I suck or lie lately....except you.

But I will, because he sucks and lies.