Obama proposes massive new "civilian national security force"

[Little-Acorn]

If the things this man has already said about expanding the U.S. government beyond all bounds, don't send chills down your spine, here's something that will.

"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set," [Obama] said Wednesday. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

I know there's no point in asking a liberal such as Obama where he finds authority in the Constitution for the things he wants to do. But his belief that only government can do the things he thinks are"good" for the country, has roots far outside anything envisioned by the Founding Fathers.

They intended that the people do pretty much everything, except for functions that obviously must be done by government (running the military, coining money, foreign relations, prosecution of criminals etc.). We've gone far beyond the limits they set out in the last century or so. But this would be a colossal jump that would surpass even the New Deal, both in its lack of constitutionality and in its potential for abuse and oppression.

Perhaps Obama can call his new civilian security force something like the "Kinder, Gentler Brotherhood". Such a title would simultaneously reflect the good intentions he doubtlessly has for it; and its acronym would reflect the history of other organizations that were probably started for those same benevolent purposes.

Oh, what a brave new world, that has such people in it!

----------------------------------------------

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-obama-national-servicejul03,0,5754842.story

Is U.S. ready to serve?
Experts: Bipartisan support, societal woes could aid Obama's attempt to boost volunteerism

by John McCormick | Chicago Tribune reporter
July 3, 2008

From Franklin D. Roosevelt and John F. Kennedy to Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, presidents and those who aspire to be president have long put forth calls for greater public service. Some found success, while others fell short of their lofty rhetoric.

Roosevelt formed the Civilian Conservation Corps and Kennedy created the Peace Corps with strong support and participation, while Clinton's AmeriCorps has never fully realized its potential, hampered by continuing funding struggles since its 1994 inception.

Still, as Sen. Barack Obama called for greater public service Wednesday, some experts predict the potential now exists for programs seeking an expansion of volunteerism to succeed, despite a slumping economy and the nation being at war.

"This may be a moment in time that is different from when earlier calls did not prove that effective," said Stephen Goldsmith, a former Indianapolis mayor and chairman of the Corporation for National and Community Service.

Obama hopes to expand U.S. service programs: GRAPHIC Goldsmith, a Republican and professor at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, said bipartisan support, serious societal problems and heightened interest in service among young people could offer new or expanded service programs the ability for growth not seen in decades

He said surveys show today's youth, a group sometimes called the " 9/11 generation," is deeply attracted to service, even as such interest has fallen off for other age groups following the attacks in 2001.

"It may represent a real shift to interest in community service," Goldsmith said.

Amid that environment, Obama outlined several proposals to boost service, both at home and abroad, during a speech in Colorado Springs.

"Loving your country shouldn't just mean watching fireworks on the 4th of July," Obama said. "Loving your country must mean accepting your responsibility to do your part to change it. If you do, your life will be richer, our country will be stronger."

In his speech at a University of Colorado campus, he pledged that enhanced public service and active citizenship would be a central cause of his presidency.

"We will ask Americans to serve," the Illinois Democrat said. "We will create new opportunities for Americans to serve."

Obama's draw to youth
For supporters, Obama's credibility on the topic is enhanced because he proved during the primary campaign that he could captivate and then mobilize young voters. His campaign argues they might also follow him into community service.

Clinton had a similar, though not quite as powerful, pull among youth. But his AmeriCorps program, which recruits workers in exchange for an education stipend, has never caught on the way the Peace Corps did in the 1960s and '70s.

Funding for AmeriCorps has been strained amid agency mismanagement and disdain for the program among some Republicans.

Still, it recorded its 500,000th participant last year. Volunteers nationwide have served needy communities by tutoring children, feeding the homeless, caring for the elderly and rebuilding areas struck by disaster.

Obama promised to increase AmeriCorps slots from 75,000 to 250,000 and pledged to double the size of the Peace Corps by 2011.

Presumptive GOP nominee John McCain of Arizona also supports an expansion of both programs and has stressed public service, including in the military, during campaign appearances.

Obama repeated his pledge to boost the size of the active military. But he said the nation's future and safety depends on more than just additional service members.

"It also depends on the teacher in East L.A., or the nurse in Appalachia, the after-school worker in New Orleans, the Peace Corps volunteer in Africa, the Foreign Service officer in Indonesia," he said.

Obama had outlined many of the proposals offered Wednesday during appearances in Iowa last December.

Goals set for students
"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set," he said Wednesday. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

He said he would make federal assistance conditional on school districts establishing service programs and set the goal of 50 hours of service a year for middle school and high school students.

For college students, Obama would set the goal at 100 hours of service a year and create a $4,000 annual tax credit for college students tied to that level of service.

[Trigg]

He said he would make federal assistance conditional on school districts establishing service programs and set the goal of 50 hours of service a year for middle school and high school students.

The dems never ending whining about the disenfranchisement of the poor and underprivileged and yet he's getting a pass for this drivel??

How are low income people supposed to ferry around their children to after school volunteer programs?? If they don't he's going to take away some of their funding???? Or, do they get a pass and everyone else still has to do it, will it be based on income??????

I've got 2 kids in middle school and high school, next year I'll have 3 that's 150 volunteer hours for me to drive (at $4 a gallon).

Why would anyone vote for this idiot??

[Trigg]

Can't make the poor get a drivers license to prove who they are in order to vote.

But lets make them ferry their kids all over for volunteer work.

Obama might want to lay off the sauce.

[Little-Acorn]

Yeah, I guess I was out of line complaining about a huge new Federal government "force", as Obama described it, whose goal was to achieve "national security", and which was to be as large and powerful as the U.S. Armed Forces themselves... and as well-funded, of course, according to Sen. Obama.. Naw, such a huge force shouldn't be any problem to the rest of us.

But having to drive our kids to an extra program or two after school? Now THAT PISSES ME OFF!!!

Thanx for helping me set my priorities straight, trigg.

[Trigg]

Yeah, I guess I was out of line complaining about a huge new Federal government "force", as Obama described it, whose goal was to achieve "national security", and which was to be as large and powerful as the U.S. Armed Forces themselves... and as well-funded, of course, according to Sen. Obama.. Naw, such a huge force shouldn't be any problem to the rest of us.

But having to drive our kids to an extra program or two after school? Now THAT PISSES ME OFF!!!

Thanx for helping me set my priorities straight, trigg.

Well my point was the gov. funding being taken away and the dems fascination with the poor being disenfranchised.

Don't let me stop your sarcasm though, have at it.

[Nukeman]

Yeah, I guess I was out of line complaining about a huge new Federal government "force", as Obama described it, whose goal was to achieve "national security", and which was to be as large and powerful as the U.S. Armed Forces themselves... and as well-funded, of course, according to Sen. Obama.. Naw, such a huge force shouldn't be any problem to the rest of us.

But having to drive our kids to an extra program or two after school? Now THAT PISSES ME OFF!!!

Thanx for helping me set my priorities straight, trigg.I think you missed the point she was trying to make.... So the question is "who pissed in your cheerios this morning"? I have to agree with her on the parents haveing to foot the bill for all of this "volunteer" work. It basicly amounts to another tax on the people who can pay it.

I don't think the "national security" should be placed in the hands of unorganized, undertrained, and questionable people.

All this is, is another program that you and I have to pay for to give some moron a job to do.....

[MtnBiker]

"Loving your country shouldn't just mean watching fireworks on the 4th of July," Obama said. "Loving your country must mean accepting your responsibility to do your part to change it. If you do, your life will be richer, our country will be stronger."

In an ealier thread it asked what is meant when Obama speaks of change. The only answer offerred was it meant the USA pulls out of Iraq.

[MtnBiker]

I know there's no point in asking a liberal such as Obama where he finds authority in the Constitution for the things he wants to do.

It will be the answer that is always given. The general welfare clause. Liberals will justify anything socialist because of the general welfare clause.

[Monkeybone]

"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set," [Obama] said Wednesday. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded." i would like to know what this means that they would be doing personally. Are they gonna just help and be watch dogs? are they gonna be like some sort of National Gaurd that is sup'd up?

and i can understand the gas POV. if they kids aren't in College or under a certain age, he should make it that they get that 'tax rebate' for gas money as long as they can prove they were driving their kids around for that reason. which of course, like everything will start to be abused and cheated.

[glockmail]

....."We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set," [Obama] said Wednesday. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.".....


Is he going to fund the Minutemen? :coffee:

[mundame]

i would like to know what this means that they would be doing personally. Are they gonna just help and be watch dogs? are they gonna be like some sort of National Gaurd that is sup'd up?

and i can understand the gas POV. if they kids aren't in College or under a certain age, he should make it that they get that 'tax rebate' for gas money as long as they can prove they were driving their kids around for that reason. which of course, like everything will start to be abused and cheated.


It won't come to anything. All demagogue types try this on: Bush did too, remember? After 9/11 he talked about organizing a new CCC, a sort of required draft for young people to do volunteer work in this country.

The idea soon vanished entirely, and so will Obama's nonsense.



But note that it IS a form of totalitarianism: the government organizing your time and your life.

[avatar4321]

What exactly is the point of this group? What type of National security issues cant be handled by the military?

[Nukeman]

Didn't a certain "socialist" party back in the 1930's start something much like this? If I remember right it was a way to bring pride back into the country and keep a close eye on your neighbors, you know you don't want them using too much water or electricity......

[mundame]

What exactly is the point of this group? What type of National security issues cant be handled by the military?


All too plainly, nearly all of them!!

The military obviously has not managed to handle either of the wars we are in; maybe Obama wants a draft so he can send troops to fight for this and that and the other black tribe in Africa. That would not make sense re our national interests, but then, neither do the two current useless wars we are losing, and a Republican started both of them.

He could use civilians to guard the southern border of the country: neither the military NOR the border patrol has managed to secure it yet.

There are a lot of national security issues in our cities --- Baltimore is the current murder capitol of America, but other black cities such as Detroit and Newark and Philadelphia are not far behind. Uniformed police haven't managed to keep the peace anywhere in these black cities, so maybe he'll send in battalions of young white men and women forced from their normal lives to battle drug dealers on North Avenue in Baltimore?

[avatar4321]

All too plainly, nearly all of them!!

The military obviously has not managed to handle either of the wars we are in; maybe Obama wants a draft so he can send troops to fight for this and that and the other black tribe in Africa. That would not make sense re our national interests, but then, neither do the two current useless wars we are losing, and a Republican started both of them.

He could use civilians to guard the southern border of the country: neither the military NOR the border patrol has managed to secure it yet.

There are a lot of national security issues in our cities --- Baltimore is the current murder capitol of America, but other black cities such as Detroit and Newark and Philadelphia are not far behind. Uniformed police haven't managed to keep the peace anywhere in these black cities, so maybe he'll send in battalions of young white men and women forced from their normal lives to battle drug dealers on North Avenue in Baltimore?

I dont think they are talking draft here. This sounds more like Gestapo to me.

[Nukeman]

If we join do we get to wear big black boots, goose step, and say hiel Obama as we march by the presidential grand stand. Just remember watch your neighbor and report anything that he does wrong!!!!!!!

[actsnoblemartin]

obama... is a fucking idiot

:lol:

[mundame]

Remember that Michelle Obama said that her husband wouldn't "let" anyone be idle once Barack got the presidency -------- that everyone would have to work and work hard for the Change Barack wants.

I guess enlarging the military and forcing school districts to enroll all middle and high school students in forced "volunteer" programs, as the article says he means to do, or the schools lose all federal funding, is the way he'll get his way into controlling everyone's life.

[avatar4321]

Remember that Michelle Obama said that her husband wouldn't "let" anyone be idle once Barack got the presidency -------- that everyone would have to work and work hard for the Change Barack wants.

I guess enlarging the military and forcing school districts to enroll all middle and high school students in forced "volunteer" programs, as the article says he means to do, or the schools lose all federal funding, is the way he'll get his way into controlling everyone's life.

ah so much for the 13th amendment.

[mundame]

ah so much for the 13th amendment.


Slavery?

Good point! This proposal of Obama's is certainly involuntary servitude.


Amendment XIII. Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

[5stringJeff]

If the things this man has already said about expanding the U.S. government beyond all bounds, don't send chills down your spine, here's something that will.

"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set," [Obama] said Wednesday. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

http://banthebanwisconsin.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/maquis_gestapo.jpg

So, Obama supporters, here's your candidate, supporting the creation of an American Gestapo. How proud you all must be!!!

[AFbombloader]

All too plainly, nearly all of them!!

The military obviously has not managed to handle either of the wars we are in; maybe Obama wants a draft so he can send troops to fight for this and that and the other black tribe in Africa. That would not make sense re our national interests, but then, neither do the two current useless wars we are losing, and a Republican started both of them.

He could use civilians to guard the southern border of the country: neither the military NOR the border patrol has managed to secure it yet.

There are a lot of national security issues in our cities --- Baltimore is the current murder capitol of America, but other black cities such as Detroit and Newark and Philadelphia are not far behind. Uniformed police haven't managed to keep the peace anywhere in these black cities, so maybe he'll send in battalions of young white men and women forced from their normal lives to battle drug dealers on North Avenue in Baltimore?

Here's a thought, why not properly man and fund the organizations you just mentioned. We don't need another organization. Fund the Border Patrol, fund the police departments, Get the recruiting dollars flowing into those organizations and let them do their job. We have too many politicians and lawyers getting in the way of the border patrol and police forces nationwide.

As far as the military not being able to do our job. You are incorrect. We do provide national security. We do our job every day. Are we perfect? No, but are you?

AF:salute:

[Gaffer]

I see a resurgence of the hitler youth program blended with Nightwatch from Babylon 5. Something tells me these groups would be predominately black with police and military powers. It's director would be a fellow named wright. The core membership would come from the nation of islam.

[Sitarro]

I see a resurgence of the hitler youth program blended with Nightwatch from Babylon 5. Something tells me these groups would be predominately black with police and military powers. It's director would be a fellow named wright. The core membership would come from the nation of islam.

The Even Newer Black Panther Party?

[Gaffer]

The Even Newer Black Panther Party?

There you go.

[mundame]

I see a resurgence of the hitler youth program blended with Nightwatch from Babylon 5. Something tells me these groups would be predominately black with police and military powers. It's director would be a fellow named wright. The core membership would come from the nation of islam.


Gaffer.......................

That's so scary.

[Dilloduck]

I want a job in the guvment keeping track of everyones volunteer hours. :laugh2:

[Yurt]

what is interesting is that not a single obama supporter has voiced a word about this

[mundame]

"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set," [Obama] said Wednesday. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."




So, Obama supporters, here's your candidate, supporting the creation of an American Gestapo. How proud you all must be!!!


Okay, about fascism: one of the prime characteristics of fascist systems is the creation of parallel governmental structures. Like a parallel army controlled by the Fuhrer. Or a parallel spy system, out-ranking the police or FBI. Because the fascist party cannot trust the original government system: they need one wholly under their control, acting in parallel until the new system can supercede the old one.

What Obama is describing sure sounds like a parallel system to me.

[SpidermanTUba]

. But his belief that only government can do the things he thinks are"good" for the country, ....

But that's not his belief. You just made it up.

[avatar4321]

Let's ignore the fascism/socialist aspect of this for a moment.

What exactly does Obama expect this group of volunteers to do? I still dont know what our military can't do national security wise.

[mundame]

Let's ignore the fascism/socialist aspect of this for a moment.

What exactly does Obama expect this group of volunteers to do? I still dont know what our military can't do national security wise.


I guess they could spy on everybody; the post office people refused to do that when Homeland Security floated the idea, so get the kids to spy.

It was done formally in both the Soviet Union early on, and famously in Nazi Germany, kids rewarded by the regime for turning in their parents for forbidden types of talk at home.

I'm kidding in a way, I really expect this stupid idea to die in the campaign. Bush floated the same nonsense after 9/11 in a SOTU address, but it went nowhere.

[SpidermanTUba]

I guess they could spy on everybody; the post office people refused to do that when Homeland Security floated the idea, so get the kids to spy.

It was done formally in both the Soviet Union early on, and famously in Nazi Germany, kids rewarded by the regime for turning in their parents for forbidden types of talk at home.

I'm kidding in a way, I really expect this stupid idea to die in the campaign. Bush floated the same nonsense after 9/11 in a SOTU address, but it went nowhere.

Our government already does such a wonderful job of spying on its own citizens.

[glockmail]

But that's not his belief. You just made it up.
We don't know what Obama's beliefs are. They change from day to day.

[Little-Acorn]

You have to wonder: What is Obama's reason for wanting a new force (as he called it) like this, as large and well-funded as the present U.S. Army? Just another way to direct government largesse to people not presently getting it, in exchange for their votes in November?

What exactly does he intend these people to do?

[mundame]

What is Obama's reason for wanting a new force (as he called it) like this, as large and well-funded as the present U.S. Army? Just another way to direct government largesse to people not presently getting it, in exchange for their votes in November?


I like it, Acorn: I bet you are right. We need to watch out for that.

[PostmodernProphet]

my daughter's private school has required service participation for years now.....ten hours per year for underclassmen, twenty hours for seniors......no graduation without proof of participation......

[Trigg]

my daughter's private school has required service participation for years now.....ten hours per year for underclassmen, twenty hours for seniors......no graduation without proof of participation......

That's the difference between public and private schools though. You signed your kids up for school knowing the requirements up front.

Obama is threatening to withhold gov. funding. Big difference.

[SpidermanTUba]

That's the difference between public and private schools though. You signed your kids up for school knowing the requirements up front.

Obama is threatening to withhold gov. funding. Big difference.


We had to do 40 hours in my high school during our junior year. It was definitely a worthwhile experience. I hated it at the time but I think it helped me grow up a little quicker.

If a law like this gets passed, they need to realize that a lot of private schools and indeed churches require service already. Had I not gone to a private school, my church would have required me to do about the same amount of service to get confirmed anyway.

[mundame]

If a law like this gets passed, they need to realize that a lot of private schools and indeed churches require service already. Had I not gone to a private school, my church would have required me to do about the same amount of service to get confirmed anyway.


What service were you expected to do from your church?

[Trigg]

We had to do 40 hours in my high school during our junior year. It was definitely a worthwhile experience. I hated it at the time but I think it helped me grow up a little quicker.

If a law like this gets passed, they need to realize that a lot of private schools and indeed churches require service already. Had I not gone to a private school, my church would have required me to do about the same amount of service to get confirmed anyway.

My problem with this is the disenfranchisement of the poor.

Obama wants to threaten people with no federal funding for schools. Inner city schools are the ones that are going to suffer. The parents can't afford to ferry their children to and from volunteer programs.

Libs argue until they're blue in the face about requiring ID to vote and then Obama proposes something like this????? Our low income students would be refused funding for their schools and no diploma on top of that. What a nice guy.

For the record you can't com pair private school requirements to public.

[SpidermanTUba]

My problem with this is the disenfranchisement of the poor.

Obama wants to threaten people with no federal funding for schools. Inner city schools are the ones that are going to suffer. The parents can't afford to ferry their children to and from volunteer programs.

So have volunteer programs that utilize school transportation. Maybe we shouldn't expect poor kids to go to school at all, since it puts such a burden on their family to have to go do stuff.

[mundame]

So have volunteer programs that utilize school transportation. Maybe we shouldn't expect poor kids to go to school at all, since it puts such a burden on their family to have to go do stuff.


I like it. Let's do exactly that: people only go to school whose family WANTS them to and can force them to go and to behave well enough to stay in.

Hard rules, real discipline, if they act like thugs they get suspended or expelled. Don't want to go? Good, lettuce-picking is 800 miles thataway.

And you KNOW we need lettuce-pickers.

[Trigg]

So have volunteer programs that utilize school transportation. Maybe we shouldn't expect poor kids to go to school at all, since it puts such a burden on their family to have to go do stuff.

Why do you hate the poor? Arn't you a dem?

[SpidermanTUba]

I like it. Let's do exactly that: people only go to school whose family WANTS them to and can force them to go and to behave well enough to stay in.

Hard rules, real discipline, if they act like thugs they get suspended or expelled. Don't want to go? Good, lettuce-picking is 800 miles thataway.

And you KNOW we need lettuce-pickers.

Plus, they should only be allowed to go if their parents have enough money to pay for it.

I'm personally against any sort of system that seeks to provide opportunity to those with bad parents. I think any kid with bad parents should just be sold into slavery.

[SpidermanTUba]

Why do you hate the poor?
I don't. I used to be poor and at present am not exactly rich. You're a liar.

[Immanuel]

GWB tried to turn American citizens against each other right after 9/11. Remember how he asked us all to be extra vigilant and if we saw our neighbors doing anything suspicious to turn them in?

Now Obama wants to do the same damned thing. We're going to have a National Security Force which goes around arresting our neighbors (maybe even you) for perceived indiscretions. Protest in front of an abortion clinic and receive a midnight knock on your door. Good bye... no more protests.

Did we time warp to 1939 recently?

This is a scary proposition by Obama.

Immie

[avatar4321]

I don't. I used to be poor and at present am not exactly rich. You're a liar.

how do you lie by asking a question?

[SpidermanTUba]

how do you lie by asking a question?



By the assumptions implicit in the question. Do I have to explain everything?