Libertarianism in a Nutshell II

[midcan5]

Rand's mother receives excellent care during her pregnancy
rand is born in a public education university hospital
he is well cared for in corporate day care
his parents have health insurance through work
he lives in a neighborhood in which the tax code provides good schools
he attends public school and his parents can afford tutors if needed
his grandparents provide funds for college
he attends a state college and graduates with a business degree
in college he joins a libertarian group
a friend of his father recommends him to a colleague for a job interview
he lands a job
he marries a woman of similar background
they have two children
he repeats much of the life of his parents but enters politics
he runs as a republican libertarian
his campaign stresses libertarian principles of freedom
hard work and the free market are the forces that matter
the election is close
rand wins
he enters during a time of excessive budget deficits
an enormous budget package includes reduced taxes and a reduction in entitlements
rand true to his libertarian creed votes yes
his is the deciding vote
protesters hold signs of disagreement in the streets
breakfast and lunch services are stopped for many children
loans are limited for education funds
early child care is reduced
health care also receives a large cutback
rand has been true to his libertarian creed
after all he made it on his own didn't he

[Abbey Marie]

The outrageous malpractice lawsuits are curtailed. As a result, medical treatment becomes more affordable, yet stays competitive. Quality doctors still want to practice.
And the people learn to value their education.
And they stop having children out of wedlock.
And their children have fathers at home.
As a result of all this, they have a better quality of life. They get better jobs.
And they learn to rely on themselves whenever possible.

And they thank Rand for showing them a better way to live than expecting gov't handouts.

(I'm not libertarian, but this seems about right to me).

[midcan5]

Abbey, your reply is the very reason for the parable. The idea tough love makes everyone better is a naive notion, it assumes that the area they need to cover requires only a change in motivation. The 25 to 30% of the working poor in America certainly have the motivation, it is those other things that are missing. Give those people Rand's life then preach. I heard a wonderful phrase today which is so true, capitalism is for the poor socialism is for the rich. You only have to think of the recent bear sterns enormous welfare check to know there is truth in that phrase.


http://www.amazon.com/Deer-Hunting-Jesus-Dispatches-Americas/dp/0307339378/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215176375&sr=1-1

[5stringJeff]

Give those people Rand's life then preach.

That's the whole point. You can't give people a life like that. They have to earn it. Rand's parents had to work to attain the level of income where they could afford to live in a good neighborhood, afford quality health care, get business networks, etc. etc. When you hand people housing and food in an attempt to "give them a life," you get "the projects," which are government-run slums.

You know the phrase, "Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day; teach a man to fish, he'll eat for the rest of his life?" That's what libertarians believe; we can voluntarily help others and teach them to succeed, so they can live their own lives in the way that pleases them.

[Abbey Marie]

Abbey, your reply is the very reason for the parable. The idea tough love makes everyone better is a naive notion, it assumes that the area they need to cover requires only a change in motivation. The 25 to 30% of the working poor in America certainly have the motivation, it is those other things that are missing. Give those people Rand's life then preach. I heard a wonderful phrase today which is so true, capitalism is for the poor socialism is for the rich. You only have to think of the recent bear sterns enormous welfare check to know there is truth in that phrase.


http://www.amazon.com/Deer-Hunting-Jesus-Dispatches-Americas/dp/0307339378/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215176375&sr=1-1


You are setting people up for a life of ultimate failure and great dissatisfaction when you hand them the things they could and should earn. You destroy their motivation, and whether you realize it or not, that is a very bad thing. This lack of motivation is then passed down to the next generation.

There are endless opportunities in this country to help yourself, and with few exceptions, anyone can take advantage of them. This is why so many people try so hard to immigrate here.

[Hobbit]

Abbey, your reply is the very reason for the parable. The idea tough love makes everyone better is a naive notion, it assumes that the area they need to cover requires only a change in motivation. The 25 to 30% of the working poor in America certainly have the motivation, it is those other things that are missing. Give those people Rand's life then preach. I heard a wonderful phrase today which is so true, capitalism is for the poor socialism is for the rich. You only have to think of the recent bear sterns enormous welfare check to know there is truth in that phrase.


http://www.amazon.com/Deer-Hunting-Jesus-Dispatches-Americas/dp/0307339378/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215176375&sr=1-1

That's the biggest load of horse squeeze I've ever seen. The best I could see the libs dredge up to demonstrate how 'necessary' the retarded minimum wage increase was was a lazy whore whose lived with her sister and about half a dozen kids...no dad. The house was a run down mess and the woman had quit her job and taken a lower paying position with fewer hours so she wouldn't have to walk an extra four goddamn blocks to work. She was trying to take care of a whole herd of kids on less than 40 hours a week and not even TRYING to look for a second job. When people like my dad have been working 60-100 hour weeks since college to get where they are only to be told that the sole reason they're any better off than these lazy bastards has to do with luck is an INSULT.

What about back during the Depression? The children of dirt farmers worked their way out of the muck and mire to become college educated professionals, not because some government nanny program slapped a diaper on them and told them to increase their self-esteem, but because they actually had the balls necessary to do what it took to succeed. When my grandpa was in grade school...GRADE SCHOOL, the school couldn't afford to stay 100% open all year, so any student taking more than a semester a year had to pay tuition. Well, his dad only made $1/day at his job and his oldest sibling was in college, so my grandpa worked as a janitor at the school to pay for his other semester.

All these so-called 'compassionate' government handouts do is teach the poor that the government will solve all their problems, and the problems they don't solve are all the rich man's fault. They turn the poor, poor, pitiful poor into overdependent wards of the state who are unwilling to work to feed themselves, much less their families. Take a look at New Orleans compared to the Midwest. New Orleans was a liberal run city in a liberal run state and was chock full of all kinds of entitlements that are supposed to transform the poor, poor, pitiful poor into working Americans with hopes and dreams. When the city was destroyed, thousands of these idiots sat around, despite an evacuation order, and waited for the government to bail them out. Afterwords, all they did was sit around and gripe about how the government couldn't give them free stuff fast enough. FEMA trailers were meant to be VERY temporary housing, yet some of them remained occupied for over a year, until they were unfit to live in anymore. Cruise lines opened their doors for survivors to house themselves in the off-season, but when winter had come and gone, those ingrates SUED the cruise lines to be allowed to stay on board. Thousands took advantage of free hotel stays, then claimed they couldn't find a job when it came time to leave and didn't even beg, but DEMANDED to be allowed to stay. Not one of them had asked the hotel manager if he had any positions open. They weren't motivated. They weren't the product of any system of luck or chance. They were lazy douchebags who wouldn't lift a finger for anybody.

Compare that to the Midwest, where men are men and people are expected to WORK for a living. When floods came through and destroyed their town, they didn't even ask for a handout, much less DEMAND one. They rolled up their sleeves and rebuilt.

Tell you what, I have a challenge for you. Find me ONE person, just ONE person who became successful through government programs.

Speaking of which, I can't remember frozen dinner company it is, but one of them was founded by a woman who made the first batch of those from ingredients she bought with food stamps. This sounds like a perfect example of what people tell us these government programs are SUPPOSED to do, namely, lift people out of poverty. However, the government cut her off and demanded a repayment of the food stamps because she resold what she bought, and she nearly went under right then and there.

As one last statement, I give you an illustration. I ask, what do government programs do? Welfare and food stamps do nothing to get people to earn more money. They're just giving people stuff they didn't earn. Government education isn't any better, since many people simply blow off their education and a high school diploma from a government school is ill preparation for college. It just gives the lazy kids something to do until they start working dead-end jobs, and many of them just drop out. When somebody digs themselves into a hole, what they need is somebody willing to help them WORK their way out. What the government does is toss them a bunch of comforts to distract them from the fact that they're in a hole.

[midcan5]

What about back during the Depression? The children of dirt farmers worked their way out of the muck and mire to become college educated professionals, not because some government nanny program slapped a diaper on them and told them to increase their self-esteem, but because they actually had the balls necessary to do what it took to succeed. When my grandpa was in grade school...GRADE SCHOOL, the school couldn't afford to stay 100% open all year, so any student taking more than a semester a year had to pay tuition. Well, his dad only made $1/day at his job and his oldest sibling was in college, so my grandpa worked as a janitor at the school to pay for his other semester.

I finally had to climb onto my desk to get above the pure BS in that post. But I will take a minute to address only one of your major fantasies. The GD was an example of what happens when the market is left on its own and the separation between rich and poor grows to extremes. FDR's job programs and the WW got us out of it and guess how all those poor people went to college: the GI Bill. I even used it in the seventies. We are on this ship of earth together and the sooner you fools learn robbery and rape are as likely to come from corporate America as jobs and good benefits the better. May I suggest Joe's book as a way to start you out of the fog you inhabit.


A vote for John McCain is a vote against the fundamental principle of America, the right of the individual to lead their life privately without the government interfering.

http://www.amazon.com/Deer-Hunting-Jesus-Dispatches-Americas/dp/0307339378/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215176375&sr=1-1

Hobbit, additional thoughts.

What your grandpa did is being done today too, people are people. But imagine going to college today on a janitor's income. That has changed. The upper middle class and above are the only ones who can easily afford college today. The people in the midwest are no different than people anywhere, I think that is a myth you find comfort in and if checked closely would prove to be irrelevant. Look how the people in NY came together after 911.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A01E7DD1639F935A15757C0A9609582 60

"A study released last summer by the office of Manhattan Borough President Ruth Messinger found that at any given time about 50,000 jobs, of all types (not just entry-level), are available in New York City. If they were all filled by welfare recipients, 300,000 more jobs would be needed for the remaining adults on welfare, and an additional 200,000 jobs would be needed for other unemployed New Yorkers. The ratio of out-of-work New Yorkers to available jobs is 10 to 1."

[mythbuster]

You guys like to pretend that the USA's huge middle class came up naturally out of "free markets". WRONG! If it weren't for government regulations, labor laws and unions, corporations would still pay their work force DIRT.

Middle class people were able to get rich before Reagan & the Two Bush's de-regulated corporate america. Now us middle class people can't even save for retirement, let alone save to become rich.

Meanwhile, CEO pay is up 10 fold and their corporate profits are through the roof. They moved business overseas to save a buck.

And, bankruptsy laws are very strict now a days for common folk. They re-wrote the laws so it is smart for a big corporations to go bankrupt, but if you do it, it will RUIN YOUR LIFE!!!! So who is going to take a chance and start a business? No one. That's why the economy sucks.

Too dumb to see it?

[midcan5]

You guys like to pretend that the USA's huge middle class came up naturally out of "free markets". WRONG! If it weren't for government regulations, labor laws and unions, corporations would still pay their work force DIRT.

And today they are back to making dirt and thanking the very crooks who rob and steal for the dirt.




http://www.amazon.com/Deer-Hunting-Jesus-Dispatches-Americas/dp/0307339378/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215176375&sr=1-1

[mythbuster]

And today they are back to making dirt and thanking the very crooks who rob and steal for the dirt.




http://www.amazon.com/Deer-Hunting-Jesus-Dispatches-Americas/dp/0307339378/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215176375&sr=1-1


Things will get better.

Zogby’s Electoral College Count
7-7-2008

Obama
273

McCain
158

Undecided
105

[Hobbit]

That's it. I'm out. Both of you have completely lost touch with reality and fail to grasp even basic economic principles. There's not point in arguing with someone who has to be educated first.

[mythbuster]

That's it. I'm out. Both of you have completely lost touch with reality and fail to grasp even basic economic principles. There's not point in arguing with someone who has to be educated first.

Yes, you should get out of politics altogether. You'll do yourself a favor by staying home in November. Us Democrats will take care of you.

No one wants "handouts".

Actually, you make a good point. For 7 years now, the government has given the rich handouts and they aren't spending that money. GIVING THEM THOSE HANDOUTS has made them lazy. Also greedy.

So you are right. We should take away those handouts. We should instead give a rich person a tax break when he starts a business. You don't just give him the money and hope he does the right thing. Because he won't. Instead he takes the money offshore and escapes paying taxes.

At least with welfare, they spend the money. It actually helps the economy.

[mundame]

There's not point in arguing with someone who has to be educated first.


So much for the Internet, then........................

[mythbuster]

So much for the Internet, then........................

THESE GUYS MAKE ME SICK WITH THEIR ECONOMIC PRINCIPLES. SUPPLY AND DEMAND, FREE MARKETS, BLABLA.

When the Federal Reserve will come in and bail the banks out, don't talk to me about free markets.

And when Supply and Demand would only put gas at $3 max, don't tell me China and India's usage of gas is why the price is at $4.50.

Last week Israel flew over Iran, so gas went up. Also last week, Exxon won a contract in iraq. Surprise!!!! Gas prices did not go down.

So they speculate bad news and use it to raise prices but never speculate so gas prices go down.

I have always known economics was a joke. If this then that. When this happens, that happens. Not always.

Plus, anything this guy tells us is most certainly going to be bullshit. LOL.

[emmett]

Rand's mother receives excellent care during her pregnancy
rand is born in a public education university hospital
he is well cared for in corporate day care
his parents have health insurance through work
he lives in a neighborhood in which the tax code provides good schools
he attends public school and his parents can afford tutors if needed
his grandparents provide funds for college
he attends a state college and graduates with a business degree
in college he joins a libertarian group
a friend of his father recommends him to a colleague for a job interview
he lands a job
he marries a woman of similar background
they have two children
he repeats much of the life of his parents but enters politics
he runs as a republican libertarian
his campaign stresses libertarian principles of freedom
hard work and the free market are the forces that matter
the election is close
rand wins
he enters during a time of excessive budget deficits
an enormous budget package includes reduced taxes and a reduction in entitlements
rand true to his libertarian creed votes yes
his is the deciding vote
protesters hold signs of disagreement in the streets
breakfast and lunch services are stopped for many children
loans are limited for education funds
early child care is reduced
health care also receives a large cutback
rand has been true to his libertarian creed
after all he made it on his own didn't he

Ah.........................what's the point?

Insurance paid for his hospital bills which his parents paid the premiums on.

Reductions in entitlements don't affect folks who pay their own way.

His grandparents paid for his education.

Obviously he is elected because a majority believes in the same things he does.

The huge tax cuts you mentioned that he voted for will stimulate the hell out of the economy and put money in the hands of people, not government. More businesses will open, more jobs will be created.............never mind!

Yes! He and his family, made it on their own! The same way everyone would if they weren't given the low rate sorry ass entitlements that our government is offering.

[glockmail]

That's it. I'm out. Both of you have completely lost touch with reality and fail to grasp even basic economic principles. There's not point in arguing with someone who has to be educated first.
Bingo.

Oh, and let's all pretend that bank bailouts are a conservative idea.:laugh2:

[5stringJeff]

THESE GUYS MAKE ME SICK WITH THEIR ECONOMIC PRINCIPLES. SUPPLY AND DEMAND, FREE MARKETS, BLABLA.

When the Federal Reserve will come in and bail the banks out, don't talk to me about free markets.

Who supports that? Ben Bernanke? He's "independent."


And when Supply and Demand would only put gas at $3 max, don't tell me China and India's usage of gas is why the price is at $4.50.

Last week Israel flew over Iran, so gas went up. Also last week, Exxon won a contract in iraq. Surprise!!!! Gas prices did not go down.

So they speculate bad news and use it to raise prices but never speculate so gas prices go down.

I have always known economics was a joke. If this then that. When this happens, that happens. Not always.

Plus, anything this guy tells us is most certainly going to be bullshit. LOL.

Got a link for this "correct" market clearing price? And if you think economics is a joke, I've got 30 trillion Zimbabwean dollars to sell you. Cheap.

[midcan5]

Bingo.

Oh, and let's all pretend that bank bailouts are a conservative idea.

Not sure if that is sign you are finally getting it or you were just lucky. Socialism is for the rich, capitalism is for the poor. Bailing out banks, SLAs, etc is Ok but helping the working poor achieve a living wage is taboo.

[midcan5]

Ah.........................what's the point?

He did it all on his own.

[glockmail]

Not sure if that is sign you are finally getting it or you were just lucky. Socialism is for the rich, capitalism is for the poor. Bailing out banks, SLAs, etc is Ok but helping the working poor achieve a living wage is taboo.
That pretty much nails it, don't it? Liberals-socialists pander to the poor, and their policies assure that they stay poor.

[CockySOB]

That's the whole point. You can't give people a life like that. They have to earn it. Rand's parents had to work to attain the level of income where they could afford to live in a good neighborhood, afford quality health care, get business networks, etc. etc. When you hand people housing and food in an attempt to "give them a life," you get "the projects," which are government-run slums.

You know the phrase, "Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day; teach a man to fish, he'll eat for the rest of his life?" That's what libertarians believe; we can voluntarily help others and teach them to succeed, so they can live their own lives in the way that pleases them.

Don't forget though, that while you CAN lead a horse (or donkey) to water, you CANNOT make them drink. In the end, it is all up to the individual as to whether they choose to take the steps necessary to survive and/or thrive... or not.