US Teacher Suspended For Suggesting History

[Psychoblues]

No wonder our kids are so angry!!!!!!!!!! Their teachers can't teach them for fear of political retribution!!!!!!!!!!!

US Teacher Suspended for Allowing Pupils To Read Bestseller

Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington
Thursday July 3, 2008
The Guardian


An Indiana teacher who used a much lauded bestseller, The Freedom Writers Diary, to try to inspire under-performing high-school students has been suspended from her job without pay for 18 months.
The effective book ban by the school authorities in Perry Township has outraged teachers and education reformers.

The Writers Diary, a series of true stories written by inner-city teenagers, was put together by a teacher, Erin Gruwell, and has been celebrated as a model for transforming young lives. It was made into a film with Hilary Swank last year.

More: http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,2288658,00.html

Maybe they'll get more out of the puke playbook?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[DragonStryk72]

Ah yes, No Child Left Behind, where actual teaching attempts are thwarted with vigor

[Kathianne]

Ah yes, No Child Left Behind, where actual teaching attempts are thwarted with vigor

I'm against censorship over language at the secondary level, though unconvinced that would be the sole reason in this case. I'm familiar with the book, quite unsure however why it would be used in US History class. After googling the only reference found it from the Guardian piece, which was elaborated upon by that writer at Huffington Post, then mentioned by another blogger on LA Times.

Considering the teacher was put on a 1 year suspension and not fighting it, the only report on that by an Indiana paper, doesn't seem like all the facts are in.

[Kathianne]

While this happened in England, for some reason I'll bet PB and DS might find it much more 'understandable':

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1031784/Schoolboys-punished-detention-refusing-kneel-pray-Allah.html


Schoolboys punished with detention for refusing to kneel in class and pray to Allah

By Daily Mail Reporter
Last updated at 11:30 AM on 04th July 2008


Two schoolboys were given detention after refusing to kneel down and 'pray to Allah' during a religious education lesson.

Parents were outraged that the two boys from year seven (11 to 12-year-olds) were punished for not wanting to take part in the practical demonstration of how Allah is worshipped.

They said forcing their children to take part in the exercise at Alsager High School, near Stoke-on-Trent - which included wearing Muslim headgear - was a breach of their human rights.
Alsager School

Alsager School, near Stoke, has received furious complaints from parents after two Year 7 boys were punished for refusing to kneel to Allah during a religious studies class

One parent, Sharon Luinen, said: "This isn't right, it's taking things too far.

"I understand that they have to learn about other religions. I can live with that but it is taking it a step too far to be punished because they wouldn't join in Muslim prayer.

"Making them pray to Allah, who isn't who they worship, is wrong and what got me is that they were told they were being disrespectful.

"I don't want this to look as if I have a problem with the school because I am generally very happy with it."

Another parent Karen Williams said: "I am absolutely furious my daughter was made to take part in it and I don't find it acceptable.

"I haven't got a problem with them teaching my child other religions and a small amount of information doesn't do any harm.

"But not only did they have to pray, the teacher had gone into the class and made them watch a short film and then said 'we are now going out to pray to Allah'....

[Gaffer]

More people need to be disrespectful to allah. I am at every opportunity.

:pee: allah

[DragonStryk72]

While this happened in England, for some reason I'll bet PB and DS might find it much more 'understandable':

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1031784/Schoolboys-punished-detention-refusing-kneel-pray-Allah.html

One reason I'm happy to be an American, of many. However, my point still stands: As it said in the article, the book was chosen for being a spectacularly encouraging story, and if the school were going to approve ANY book like that, that's the one you go for, especially when you're attempting to inspire students. As it is a part of our history, being a true story, that is within bounds, and seriously, if a teacher wants to go out of their way to teach the kids a little bit extra, and look to inspire them to greater heights, by all means, go for it.

[Kathianne]

One reason I'm happy to be an American, of many. However, my point still stands: As it said in the article, the book was chosen for being a spectacularly encouraging story, and if the school were going to approve ANY book like that, that's the one you go for, especially when you're attempting to inspire students. As it is a part of our history, being a true story, that is within bounds, and seriously, if a teacher wants to go out of their way to teach the kids a little bit extra, and look to inspire them to greater heights, by all means, go for it.

Disagree with your premise that it should be taught in US history, check out any states goals and standards regarding US history. It's use in an English or Literature course, yes.

[Hagbard Celine]

Disagree with your premise that it should be taught in US history, check out any states goals and standards regarding US history. It's use in an English or Literature course, yes.

Education's purpose isn't to stick to strict guidelines set-out by the politbureau. It seems that this teacher was simply trying to inspire the students by showing them that kids their age had published a book. For many of them, it was probably a "novel" concept.
For all you linear-thinking troglodytes out there, this is what we refer to as "outside the box thinking."
Do we even know why the book has been banned? Does it contain *gasp* sexual references or something equally frightening?

[Kathianne]

Education's purpose isn't to stick to strict guidelines set-out by the politbureau. It seems that this teacher was simply trying to inspire the students by showing them that kids their age had published a book. For many of them, it was probably a "novel" concept.
For all you linear-thinking troglodytes out there, this is what we refer to as "outside the box thinking."
Do we even know why the book has been banned? Does it contain *gasp* sexual references or something equally frightening?

LOL! Again, it does fit into English courses, not with social studies. It would fit in the 'guidelines' in English; fail for US history.

If she wishes to have students read 'inspirational' books, either find them from the basis of curriculum, or get endorsed in Language Arts or Literature.

[Trigg]

Administrators objected to racial slurs and sexual content in portions of the book.[

Found this little snippet. Seems the book was banned for the same reason many others are racial slurs. You won't see Huck Finn being read in schools these days either, same reason.

[Hagbard Celine]

LOL! Again, it does fit into English courses, not with social studies. It would fit in the 'guidelines' in English; fail for US history.

If she wishes to have students read 'inspirational' books, either find them from the basis of curriculum, or get endorsed in Language Arts or Literature.

From the story:

Teachers' union officials say that a single board member objected to swearing in the book. The school board member allegedly persuaded the other six officials to ban Heermann from teaching the book. It remains available in school libraries.

Regardless of your reich-esque standards for strict adherence to Das Curricula in highschool history classes, the reason for the book's banning was because it apparently featured swear words. Swear words! This country is going down the sh*tter. I see crap like this every day now. Books being banned. Educators put on probation for trying to reach students. It's a f*cking travesty.

[Trigg]

From the story:


Regardless of your reich-esque standards for strict adherence to Das Curricula in highschool history classes, the reason for the book's banning was because it apparently featured swear words. Swear words! This country is going down the sh*tter. I see crap like this every day now. Books being banned. Educators put on probation for trying to reach students. It's a f*cking travesty.

Wrong.

Racial slurs. You won't see Huck Finn being taught either.

Not saying I agree with it, but there you are.

[Hagbard Celine]

Wrong.

Racial slurs. You won't see Huck Finn being taught either.

Not saying I agree with it, but there you are.

"Wrong?" I quoted the story from the OP genius. And on top of that, are you really arguing that swear words and racial slurs are not the same thing? For God's sake. No wonder conservatism is dead.

[Trigg]

"Wrong?" I quoted the story from the OP genius. And on top of that, are you really arguing that swear words and racial slurs are not the same thing? For God's sake. No wonder conservatism is dead.


Heermann violated a supervisor's direct decision by continuing to use "The Freedom Writers Diary" in her classroom last semester after an administrator told her to stop using the book. School officials objected to the racial slurs and stereotypes, and sexually explicit content in the book.


http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=41430&cat=15

Yes, I'm arguing that racial slurs and swear words arn't the same thing.

Shit and damn just arn't on the same level as Ni@@er.

[Hagbard Celine]

http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=41430&cat=15

Yes, I'm arguing that racial slurs and swear words arn't the same thing.

Shit and damn just arn't on the same level as Ni@@er.

You have a point regarding the particularly insidious and derogatory nature of racial slurs compared to expletives. However, I am refering to both in terms of banned speech. In those terms, they are the same thing. Both are forms of speech that should not be banned but are regularly on "moral" grounds.

And back to the topic at hand, nobody seems to be acknowledging that this teacher went through all appropriate channels--even going to the trouble of getting students to get parental permission for the book before she attempted to use it in her class. I submit that the school board is wrong in this case. Banning books and educators does nothing to protect students or further the cause of education. All it does is satisfy the self-righteousness of those who institute it.

[Kathianne]

From the story:


Regardless of your reich-esque standards for strict adherence to Das Curricula in highschool history classes, the reason for the book's banning was because it apparently featured swear words. Swear words! This country is going down the sh*tter. I see crap like this every day now. Books being banned. Educators put on probation for trying to reach students. It's a f*cking travesty.

You are missing the story. The book was NOT banned, the teacher was put on a year long unpaid suspension for her behavior. BTW, the Nazi references don't phase me, as they don't apply.

My guess is even CNN has some best practices, no?

[AFbombloader]

You have a point regarding the particularly insidious and derogatory nature of racial slurs compared to expletives. However, I am refering to both in terms of banned speech. In those terms, they are the same thing. Both are forms of speech that should not be banned but are regularly on "moral" grounds.

And back to the topic at hand, nobody seems to be acknowledging that this teacher went through all appropriate channels--even going to the trouble of getting students to get parental permission for the book before she attempted to use it in her class. I submit that the school board is wrong in this case. Banning books and educators does nothing to protect students or further the cause of education. All it does is satisfy the self-righteousness of those who institute it.


The book was not banned, the teacher was instructed not to use it. Yes, this teachew did go through the correct channels, but was told "NO". This teacher decided to ignore the school board and is now reaping what was sown. I don't have any problem with this book being "suggested" to the students, but to go directly against the school board is wrong (even if it was 1 guy who pursuaded the others). And I have no problems with the punishment metted out in this case.

AF:salute:

[namvet]

Education's purpose isn't to stick to strict guidelines set-out by the politbureau. It seems that this teacher was simply trying to inspire the students by showing them that kids their age had published a book. For many of them, it was probably a "novel" concept.
For all you linear-thinking troglodytes out there, this is what we refer to as "outside the box thinking."
Do we even know why the book has been banned? Does it contain *gasp* sexual references or something equally frightening?


Do we even know why the book has been banned?

step by step on how to murder a teacher.............:laugh2:

[Psychoblues]

Some of you are just so freakin' dense and absolutely have no shame in your lies. The teacher was teaching and I personally applaud her for it!!!!!!!! Someone suggested that Huckleberry Finn was not taught today????? Where in hell did that come from? My grandaughter was 14 last year. She came to visit and guess what was on her lap? A good library copy of Mark Twain's "Huckleberry Finn"!!!!!!!!!!! She told me that she had also read "Tom Sawyer". I encouraged her to read more of Mark Twain. She also admits to have seen George Carlin, the 20th century Mark Twain and she says she loves it!!!!!!!!!! God Bless her and God bless America!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AFbombloader]

Some of you are just so freakin' dense and absolutely have no shame in your lies. The teacher was teaching and I personally applaud her for it!!!!!!!! Someone suggested that Huckleberry Finn was not taught today????? Where in hell did that come from? My grandaughter was 14 last year. She came to visit and guess what was on her lap? A good library copy of Mark Twain's "Huckleberry Finn"!!!!!!!!!!! She told me that she had also read "Tom Sawyer". I encouraged her to read more of Mark Twain. She also admits to have seen George Carlin, the 20th century Mark Twain and she says she loves it!!!!!!!!!! God Bless her and God bless America!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The reality is, the teacher chose to disregard a directive from the school board. She/he (not sure which) is paying for that, this really has nothing to do with the book. This could be the best, most helpful book on the planet and it wouldn't matter. The teacher was told to not use it, they did, they got suspended, that is it! I think the moral of this is to follow instructions, and you don't get to choose which ones. Sometimes the people above you make the wrong decision and you just have to live with it.

And good for your grandaughter. Mark Twain is a great author and his books are some of my favorites. My sons have read them too. But Trigg's point was that there are sections that could be deemed offensive in them too, and the same criteria could be put on them. Not that they shouldn't be read (that is what I gathered, if I am wrong I apologize Trigg!)

AF:salute:

[Psychoblues]

The article clearly states that a single board member objected, afbl. Ain't no one jerk ever changed anything in this ol' cowboys mind!!!!!!!!! I gotta have more verification than that. She ain't military, my friend. This case will turn out on her side. You can bank on it.

[emmett]

LOL! Again, it does fit into English courses, not with social studies. It would fit in the 'guidelines' in English; fail for US history.

If she wishes to have students read 'inspirational' books, either find them from the basis of curriculum, or get endorsed in Language Arts or Literature.

Kathy, what if it just happen to be a history teacher! Who happened to be interested enough to do this. It isn't a bad concept.

Knowing you and your philosophy about instructional education I would have thought you would have been a wee bit warmer to the idea. Understand, I AM NOT familiar with the book so I may be talking out of my exhaust pipe on this but even if the book contains questionable language, what does the whole story do for each reader. I take it is inner city kids telling about real life experiences and getting a little "raw" in their depictions. If the result of their story is positive, where's the damage.

I'm all ears teach..........and ready to learn!

[DragonStryk72]

Disagree with your premise that it should be taught in US history, check out any states goals and standards regarding US history. It's use in an English or Literature course, yes.

should be? possibly not. However, did it say anywhere in the article that the students were behind in their history studies? If they are not behind, and if the teacher, trained in, of all things, how to teach (I know, it's terrible when we actually let people do their jobs), then it is irrelevant. The teacher did, in fact, go to the board with this, and was told there no issue with the book, cause really, why would there be? How many more barriers do we put between our children and the inspiration to want something more for themselves?

More than that, when does the teacher get to determine what their particular students need? As long as standards are met, who gives a shit if their kid gets some extra inspiration along with it, and why on god's green EARTH are we treating this like it is a bad thing?

[AFbombloader]

The article clearly states that a single board member objected, afbl. Ain't no one jerk ever changed anything in this ol' cowboys mind!!!!!!!!! I gotta have more verification than that. She ain't military, my friend. This case will turn out on her side. You can bank on it.

That is what I said, one board member objected. But he convinced the other board embers to agree with him, therefore the whole board was on the same page. Right or wrong, they did make the decision. If this plays out in her favor, good. I have heard the book has a good message and these kids may be better off reading it. But it still doesn't change the fact that she went against the directive of the school board.
What does her not being military have to do with anything?

AF:salute:

[Kathianne]

should be? possibly not. However, did it say anywhere in the article that the students were behind in their history studies? If they are not behind, and if the teacher, trained in, of all things, how to teach (I know, it's terrible when we actually let people do their jobs), then it is irrelevant. The teacher did, in fact, go to the board with this, and was told there no issue with the book, cause really, why would there be? How many more barriers do we put between our children and the inspiration to want something more for themselves?

More than that, when does the teacher get to determine what their particular students need? As long as standards are met, who gives a shit if their kid gets some extra inspiration along with it, and why on god's green EARTH are we treating this like it is a bad thing?

I teach history, I KNOW what the curriculum calls for. There is no way to take the time to read and discuss a novel without falling way behind in the material that needs to be covered. As it is, if there are students whose reading levels are not where they should be or you have some slow learners or gifted, they often need or desire to use more time to understand the material, (at all or in more depth).

I'm also certified for teaching Language Arts/Literature, if one reads the curriculum there, you will find that one could use one or two books for an entire semester and still hit all the standards/goals/threads. THAT is why in secondary school there are subject teachers.

I certainly understand how a social studies teacher would read this book and believe it might be inspirational to the teens. That is when she should have gone to the LA chair or academic coordinator or even a friend in LA to suggest perhaps an integrated lesson between the two departments, (something I do every year. While studying the Civil War, the students are reading and analyzing "Across Four Aprils" in LA. I use the characters to reference how the author illustrated particular historical events or figures in the plot. I also point out that after reading fiction, one may be inspired to read non-fiction. In the case of the book the teacher wanted to use, she could have used their LA lesson to jump off on the connections between their personal experiences, the writers' experiences and current events. The LA teacher could assign writing assignments cross connected with history regarding how the "writers' " experiences may have led them to where they were at the current time.) Somehow it sounds like this particular teacher may be 'very good', but not so disciplined about working with others, thus unintentionally messing with the kids academics.

[DragonStryk72]

I teach history, I KNOW what the curriculum calls for. There is no way to take the time to read and discuss a novel without falling way behind in the material that needs to be covered. As it is, if there are students whose reading levels are not where they should be or you have some slow learners or gifted, they often need or desire to use more time to understand the material, (at all or in more depth).

I'm also certified for teaching Language Arts/Literature, if one reads the curriculum there, you will find that one could use one or two books for an entire semester and still hit all the standards/goals/threads. THAT is why in secondary school there are subject teachers.

I certainly understand how a social studies teacher would read this book and believe it might be inspirational to the teens. That is when she should have gone to the LA chair or academic coordinator or even a friend in LA to suggest perhaps an integrated lesson between the two departments, (something I do every year. While studying the Civil War, the students are reading and analyzing "Across Four Aprils" in LA. I use the characters to reference how the author illustrated particular historical events or figures in the plot. I also point out that after reading fiction, one may be inspired to read non-fiction. In the case of the book the teacher wanted to use, she could have used their LA lesson to jump off on the connections between their personal experiences, the writers' experiences and current events. The LA teacher could assign writing assignments cross connected with history regarding how the "writers' " experiences may have led them to where they were at the current time.) Somehow it sounds like this particular teacher may be 'very good', but not so disciplined about working with others, thus unintentionally messing with the kids academics.

But again, no "messing" with the academics was mentioned, so that's pure supposition at this point. How is inspiring them "messing" with their academics? It's simple: A bunch of uninspired group of kids vs. a group of inspired kids, which group learns more, and retains it better?

We need to get these various bodies off of teachers' throats, because, as soon as the book was approved, it should have been permissible to use it as a teaching aid. There was no reason not to allow it in, aside from, "There's some swear words in it". and a year's suspension not only removes any good that was done in the process of reading the book, but likely sets the kids back in the process. Would it be so horrible if we just let the teachers teach? I am vastly certain you have YEARS more training at it than I do, and are more in tune with your students' needs than the school board is, seeing as you seeing them nearly every day.

[Kathianne]

But again, no "messing" with the academics was mentioned, so that's pure supposition at this point. How is inspiring them "messing" with their academics? It's simple: A bunch of uninspired group of kids vs. a group of inspired kids, which group learns more, and retains it better?

We need to get these various bodies off of teachers' throats, because, as soon as the book was approved, it should have been permissible to use it as a teaching aid. There was no reason not to allow it in, aside from, "There's some swear words in it". and a year's suspension not only removes any good that was done in the process of reading the book, but likely sets the kids back in the process. Would it be so horrible if we just let the teachers teach? I am vastly certain you have YEARS more training at it than I do, and are more in tune with your students' needs than the school board is, seeing as you seeing them nearly every day.

Hey I'm the first to agree that there should be less downtime in school. There are way too many assemblies, courses that should be dealt with at home. The way to improve teaching is NOT to start letting each secondary teacher decide to begin teaching what they suddenly want to. What if the math teacher had read the book and decided it was so inspirational that they'd skip 3 weeks and discuss the book? 1) The math teacher doesn't know how to tie language arts, writing, reading, analyzing syntax, etc. 2) 3 weeks of math would NOT be covered. 3) The LA teacher will probably be assigning another book, likely literature, the kids will say they have too much reading and their math teacher gave them a book they 'like.'

Seriously if reading one book would turn all those kids into voracious readers and excited students, praise be the muse. Instead all we had is one teacher, not bothering to do the work of getting the correct teacher to possibly use the book she thought so inspirational. She was derelict in her own teaching, which is why she's sitting out a year.

[Abbey Marie]

Hey I'm the first to agree that there should be less downtime in school. There are way too many assemblies, courses that should be dealt with at home. The way to improve teaching is NOT to start letting each secondary teacher decide to begin teaching what they suddenly want to. What if the math teacher had read the book and decided it was so inspirational that they'd skip 3 weeks and discuss the book? 1) The math teacher doesn't know how to tie language arts, writing, reading, analyzing syntax, etc. 2) 3 weeks of math would NOT be covered. 3) The LA teacher will probably be assigning another book, likely literature, the kids will say they have too much reading and their math teacher gave them a book they 'like.'

Seriously if reading one book would turn all those kids into voracious readers and excited students, praise be the muse. Instead all we had is one teacher, not bothering to do the work of getting the correct teacher to possibly use the book she thought so inspirational. She was derelict in her own teaching, which is why she's sitting out a year.

This, imo, is the one good thing about NCLB. Because of the threat of being labeled a "failing school", teachers cannot go off on too many tangents and fail to cover the basic material that will be tested.

[Kathianne]

This, imo, is the one good thing about NCLB. Because of the threat of being labeled a "failing school", teachers cannot go off on too many tangents and fail to cover the basic material that will be tested.

Thank you! I must agree, I'm shocked that so many that want schools 'improved' can't understand where she went wrong. If there are this many well informed people that think it's ok their kids or grandkids have teachers that can go willy nilly wherever their own interests take them, you're right, NCLB is a good idea. Sigh.

[Psychoblues]

Sorry to confuse you, afbl. Military schools, especially those located on base property, maintain very strict curriculums and not much room for discussions on what can or cannot be exposed to the students. Civilian schools, on the other hand, are generally given quite a bit of leeway and the teachers are generally respected for their discretionary assignments. In this case the book was not required reading but it was only suggested to those that might find it interesting. I continue to have confidense that the teacher will be exonerated in this case.



What does her not being military have to do with anything?

AF:salute:

But, I thought you knew?

[AFbombloader]

Sorry to confuse you, afbl. Military schools, especially those located on base property, maintain very strict curriculums and not much room for discussions on what can or cannot be exposed to the students. Civilian schools, on the other hand, are generally given quite a bit of leeway and the teachers are generally respected for their discretionary assignments. In this case the book was not required reading but it was only suggested to those that might find it interesting. I continue to have confidense that the teacher will be exonerated in this case.




But, I thought you knew?


My kids have never been to a school on base, in fact, I have never been to a stateside base that had a DOD school. Overseas these school are very common, but in my experience not so much in the states. I think she will end up back at work too. Open conversation on issues like this are good for schools and districts. They may need to look at not keeping the one member who objected on the school board.

AF:salute:

[Psychoblues]

The lone complainer must have been one very loud and obnoxious squeaking wheel.



My kids have never been to a school on base, in fact, I have never been to a stateside base that had a DOD school. Overseas these school are very common, but in my experience not so much in the states. I think she will end up back at work too. Open conversation on issues like this are good for schools and districts. They may need to look at not keeping the one member who objected on the school board.

AF:salute:

I've greased a lot of wheels in my life but my habit has always been to grease all the wheels that I could get to at the same occurance/maintenance activity. It's called preventive maintenance in Air Force jargon and works quite well in the civilian world as well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dig it?

[AFbombloader]

The lone complainer must have been one very loud and obnoxious squeaking wheel.




I've greased a lot of wheels in my life but my habit has always been to grease all the wheels that I could get to at the same occurance/maintenance activity. It's called preventive maintenance in Air Force jargon and works quite well in the civilian world as well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dig it?

Roger that. :salute:

[Psychoblues]

Someday, afbl, we'll somehow find ourselves on the same team.



Roger that. :salute:

Don't you know? I hope you're the team player that your military experience has made you so sensitive to.

[SpidermanTUba]

"The Freedom Writers Diary : How a Teacher and 150 Teens Used Writing to Change Themselves and the World Around Them "


Wow. Sounds like something kids shouldn't read t me.

[Psychoblues]

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2: Excellent!!!!!!!!!!!


"The Freedom Writers Diary : How a Teacher and 150 Teens Used Writing to Change Themselves and the World Around Them "


Wow. Sounds like something kids shouldn't read t me.

Are our schools still teaching the 3 r's?: :salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

[Binky]

Having them read an inspirational story is one thing. Telling them to get down and "pray to allah," is quite another. No one has the right to force another to pray to a certain God or idol. That is a personal thing that depends on ones own beliefs and is between that individual and his God, whomever or whatever it may be. Just another way of trying to control the minds of our young. I don't blame those parents for being peeved one bit.

[Psychoblues]

Have you read the article or the thread, binky?!?!?????!???!?!?!?!?



Having them read an inspirational story is one thing. Telling them to get down and "pray to allah," is quite another. No one has the right to force another to pray to a certain God or idol. That is a personal thing that depends on ones own beliefs and is between that individual and his God, whomever or whatever it may be. Just another way of trying to control the minds of our young. I don't blame those parents for being peeved one bit.

No one is forcing anyone to do anything. Where did you get that crazy idea?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!

Need something to cool the jets?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

[DragonStryk72]

Have you read the article or the thread, binky?!?!?????!???!?!?!?!?




No one is forcing anyone to do anything. Where did you get that crazy idea?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!

Need something to cool the jets?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

There was a later point made in the thread, as to the use of religious education in England, where it was asked of the students.

Now, aside from the point that trying to make people praying to entities they don't believe in isn't kosher by any means, but on top of that, I think that's vaguely insulting to the religion they're doing it to. It's, what, a half-assed prayer at best?

[DragonStryk72]

"The Freedom Writers Diary : How a Teacher and 150 Teens Used Writing to Change Themselves and the World Around Them "


Wow. Sounds like something kids shouldn't read t me.

I just can't help but think of Disney's Beauty & The Beast:

"Then they start getting ideas, and... thinking!

[Psychoblues]

Half-assed?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? What are you tryin to say, DS'72?


There was a later point made in the thread, as to the use of religious education in England, where it was asked of the students.

Now, aside from the point that trying to make people praying to entities they don't believe in isn't kosher by any means, but on top of that, I think that's vaguely insulting to the religion they're doing it to. It's, what, a half-assed prayer at best?

I thought we were speaking of a suggestion by an American teacher that got her fired?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Mumbo jumbo does not compute?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

How 'bout a cool one!???!?!?!?!?!?!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

[DragonStryk72]

Half-assed?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? What are you tryin to say, DS'72?



I thought we were speaking of a suggestion by an American teacher that got her fired?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Mumbo jumbo does not compute?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

How 'bout a cool one!???!?!?!?!?!?!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

Praying to Allah just to go through the motions of it? That's half-assed. Read the rest of the posts, a second article was posted that has the piece people are talking about here. Seriously, go read it, it's in there.

[Psychoblues]

I typically ignore posts ungermane to the subject at hand, DS'72.



Praying to Allah just to go through the motions of it? That's half-assed. Read the rest of the posts, a second article was posted that has the piece people are talking about here. Seriously, go read it, it's in there.

I suggest you do as well. It keeps down the confusion, don't you know?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!

How's that cola holding up?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues