"Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq.

[hjmick]

...He will remove one to two combat brigades each month and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months.” (http://www.barackobama.com/issues/iraq/)


Well, at least he meant it when he was seeking the nomination. Now it appears as if there is a potential change in his plans for the troops. I hope he figures it out sooner rather than later. Of course, he could just declare his intentions now and reverse course again later.


Obama rewrites Iraq plan
By MIKE ALLEN | 7/3/08 4:16 PM EST

...Heading into the holiday weekend, Obama and his advisers repudiated that pledge, saying he is reevaluating his plan and will incorporate advice from commanders on the ground when he visits Iraq later this month.

A top Obama adviser said he is not “wedded” to a specific timeline, and Obama said Thursday he plans to “refine” his plan.

“I am going to do a thorough assessment when I'm there," he told reporters in Fargo, N.D., according to CBS News. "When I go to Iraq and I have a chance to talk to some of the commanders on the ground, I'm sure I'll have more information and will continue to refine my policies..."


Source... (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/11517.html)



Change, a consistant force in Obama's life.

[manu1959]

wait till his first national security briefing......change will be his new middle name.....

i find it odd these guys with virtually no information can make decisions like these.....

[Yurt]

wait till his first national security briefing......change will be his new middle name.....

i find it odd these guys with virtually no information can make decisions like these.....

i wonder how many voted for him over hillary based solely on his pledge to leave iraq within 16 months

[Hagbard Celine]

Ooh! The "flip-flop" charges begin! And not a moment too soon! The eighty-billion straw-men that the Conservo-blogsphere has slapped up haven't stuck one iota! Let the bullsh*tting begin! Because of course, no Republican candidate in history has ever changed his mind or amended a policy before about anything!

Yeah right :rolleyes: What a pathetic, desperate attempt. No wonder conservatism is dead. :lol:

You can almost hear the sputtering of it as it slowly dies. :laugh:

[hjmick]

Ooh! The "flip-flop" charges begin! And not a moment too soon! The eighty-billion straw-men that the Conservo-blogsphere has slapped up haven't stuck one iota! Let the bullsh*tting begin! Because of course, no Republican candidate in history has ever changed his mind or amended a policy before about anything!

Yeah right :rolleyes: What a pathetic, desperate attempt. No wonder conservatism is dead. :lol:

You can almost hear the sputtering of it as it slowly dies. :laugh:

Were this but his first, I would wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment. Sadly, this is just one more on an already long list of position changes for Obama. A list that is almost as long as McCain's.

The top five as of five months ago:


Top Obama Flip-Flops
Monday, February 25, 2008; Page A04


1. Special interests In January, the Obama campaign described union contributions to the campaigns of Clinton and John Edwards as "special interest" money. Obama changed his tune as he began gathering his own union endorsements. He now refers respectfully to unions as the representatives of "working people" and says he is "thrilled" by their support.

2. Public financing Obama replied "yes" in September 2007 when asked if he would agree to public financing of the presidential election if his GOP opponent did the same. Obama has now attached several conditions to such an agreement, including regulating spending by outside groups. His spokesman says the candidate never committed himself on the matter.

3. The Cuba embargo In January 2004, Obama said it was time "to end the embargo with Cuba" because it had "utterly failed in the effort to overthrow Castro." Speaking to a Cuban American audience in Miami in August 2007, he said he would not "take off the embargo" as president because it is "an important inducement for change."

4. Illegal immigration In a March 2004 questionnaire, Obama was asked if the government should "crack down on businesses that hire illegal immigrants." He replied "Oppose." In a Jan. 31, 2008, televised debate, he said that "we do have to crack down on those employers that are taking advantage of the situation."

5. Decriminalization of marijuana While running for the U.S. Senate in January 2004, Obama told Illinois college students that he supported eliminating criminal penalties for marijuana use. In the Oct. 30, 2007, presidential debate, he joined other Democratic candidates in opposing the decriminalization of marijuana.


Source... (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/24/AR2008022402094_2.html?sid=ST2008022402134)



That's just a sample.

Look, I recognize that a person is entitled to change their position on an issue, it's only natural. Everyone does it, I get that. It is especially true of politicians, they will say whatever they have to in order to attain their goals. Often, they will even say something different to two different audiences in the same day just to make themselves more appealing to whatever group they are pandering. Quite frankly, I am not bothered by a shift in any politicians position. More often than not, the realities of the world require that they do so.

My purpose for starting this thread, and posting the article, is to address what I find to be one of the more annoying aspects of Obama's nomination. That is the notion that he is different than other politicians. We hear it all the time. The truth is, Barack Obama is no different and no more special than any other politician. He is just more of the same old crap we've had for decades.

He is a hypocrite. The are all hypocrites. There is nothing special about any of them.

[Dilloduck]

Were this but his first, I would wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment. Sadly, this is just one more on an already long list of position changes for Obama. A list that is almost as long as McCain's.

The top five as of five months ago:



That's just a sample.

Look, I recognize that a person is entitled to change their position on an issue, it's only natural. Everyone does it, I get that. It is especially true of politicians, they will say whatever they have to in order to attain their goals. Often, they will even say something different to two different audiences in the same day just to make themselves more appealing to whatever group they are pandering. Quite frankly, I am not bothered by a shift in any politicians position. More often than not, the realities of the world require that they do so.

My purpose for starting this thread, and posting the article, is to address what I find to be one of the more annoying aspects of Obama's nomination. That is the notion that he is different than other politicians. We hear it all the time. The truth is, Barack Obama is no different and no more special than any other politician. He is just more of the same old crap we've had for decades.

He is a hypocrite. The are all hypocrites. There is nothing special about any of them.

Excellent point. The difference in America is how people think America is and how it should be. America shouldnt be judged by it's leadership because frankly they are basically all con men who want a powerful cushy job but don't tell that to a liberal. Bush doesn't define America anymore than the last or the next president.

[Yurt]

Obama's Web site contains this direct promise about Iraq: "Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al-Qaida attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al-Qaida."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080703/ap_on_el_pr/obama_iraq

as hjmick said, people are allowed to change their minds, however, this promise is what set BO apart from hillary and imo, won votes over from hillary to make him the presumptive nominee. of course people also did not want bush-clinton-bush-clinton...but this is one thing that his most ardent supporters said sets him apart from any other candidate, other than this, obama and hillary were virtually the same in policy.

[April15]

While walking down the street one day a US senator is tragically hit by a truck and dies.

His soul arrives in heaven and is met by St. Peter at the entrance.

"Welcome to heaven," says St. Peter. "Before you settle in, it seems there is a problem. We seldom see a high official around these parts, you see, so we're not sure what to do with you."

"No problem, just let me in," says the man.

"Well, I'd like to, but I have orders from higher up. What we'll do is have you spend one day in hell and one in heaven. Then you can choose where to spend eternity."

"Really, I've made up my mind. I want to be in heaven," says the senator.

"I'm sorry, but we have our rules."

And with that, St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to hell. The doors open and he finds himself in the middle of a green golf course. In the distance is a clubhouse and standing in front of it are all his friends and other politicians who had worked with him.

Everyone is very happy and in evening dress. They run to greet him, shake his hand, and reminisce about the good times they had while getting rich at the expense of the people.

They play a friendly game of golf and then dine on lobster, caviar and champagne.

Also present is the devil, who really is a very friendly guy who has a good time dancing and telling jokes. They are having such a good time that before he realizes it, it is time to go.

Everyone gives him a hearty farewell and waves while the elevator rises...

The elevator goes up, up, up and the door reopens on heaven where St. Peter is waiting for him.

"Now it's time to visit heaven."

So, 24 hours pass with the senator joining a group of contented souls moving from cloud to cloud, playing the harp and singing. They have a good time and, before he realizes it, the 24 hours have gone by and St. Peter returns

"Well, then, you've spent a day in hell and another in heaven. Now choose your eternity."

The senator reflects for a minute, then he answers: "Well, I would never have said it before, I mean heaven has been delightful, but I think I would be better off in hell."

So St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to hell.

Now the doors of the elevator open and he's in the middle of a barren land covered with waste and garbage.

He sees all his friends, dressed in rags, picking up the trash and putting it in black bags as more trash falls from above.

The devil comes over to him and puts his arm around his shoulder. "I don't understand," stammers the senator "Yesterday I was here and there was a golf course and clubhouse, and we ate lobster and caviar, drank champagne, and danced and had a great time. Now there's just a wasteland full of garbage and my friends look
miserable. What happened?"

The devil looks at him, smiles and says, "Yesterday we were campaigning...... Today you voted."

[gabosaurus]

This is one of Obama's campaign promises, and I would certainly hope he upheld it. But why wait 16 months? Complete withdrawal should take no more than 12 months, at most.
It is time for Iraq to stand up for itself. If it doesn't want to take that stand, than it obviously does not wish to do so.

[hjmick]

Obama supporters want total withdrawal from Iraq. Anything less is breaking a campaign promise.


This is one of Obama's campaign promises, and I would certainly hope he upheld it. But why wait 16 months? Complete withdrawal should take no more than 12 months, at most.

Get ready for heartbreak Gabs.


Oh... And welcome to the real world. :D

[stephanie]

Ooh! The "flip-flop" charges begin! And not a moment too soon! The eighty-billion straw-men that the Conservo-blogsphere has slapped up haven't stuck one iota! Let the bullsh*tting begin! Because of course, no Republican candidate in history has ever changed his mind or amended a policy before about anything!

Yeah right :rolleyes: What a pathetic, desperate attempt. No wonder conservatism is dead. :lol:

You can almost hear the sputtering of it as it slowly dies. :laugh:

Don't worry..this is just the beginning. We are keeping track...Jon Cary ring a bell???
the boy wonder is flipping and flopping so bad, he probably can't keep them all straight in the pea brain of his..he might be able to fool you all, but we already got his number...he should of just stayed with the far left..:coffee:

[Yurt]

This is one of Obama's campaign promises, and I would certainly hope he upheld it. But why wait 16 months? Complete withdrawal should take no more than 12 months, at most.
It is time for Iraq to stand up for itself. If it doesn't want to take that stand, than it obviously does not wish to do so.

do you have any military experience that led you to this conclusion? i don't think you do, so what led you to this conclusion? what do you suppose will become of Iraq if complete withdrawal occurs?

[Yurt]

Don't worry..this is just the beginning. We are keeping track...Jon Cary ring a bell???
the boy wonder is flipping and flopping so bad, he probably can't keep them all straight in the pea brain of his..he might be able to fool you all, but we already got his number...he should of just stayed with the far left..:coffee:

not a significant task

[avatar4321]

Ooh! The "flip-flop" charges begin! And not a moment too soon! The eighty-billion straw-men that the Conservo-blogsphere has slapped up haven't stuck one iota! Let the bullsh*tting begin! Because of course, no Republican candidate in history has ever changed his mind or amended a policy before about anything!

Yeah right :rolleyes: What a pathetic, desperate attempt. No wonder conservatism is dead. :lol:

You can almost hear the sputtering of it as it slowly dies. :laugh:

Funny, you are the first person to mention flip-flopping in this thread.

[stephanie]

Funny, you are the first person to mention flip-flopping in this thread.

yep..and they must be more worried about it than they are letting on, if they are saying........NO BIG DEAL..

[manu1959]

what i want to know is when are we going to withdraw from...germany, japan, italy, england, south korea..etc.....etc.....etc.....

[Yurt]

what i want to know is when are we going to withdraw from...germany, japan, italy, england, south korea..etc.....etc.....etc.....

when the empire crumbles

[AFbombloader]

If they want to start withdrawing troops from foreign lands please start with South Korea. I will go first!

Korea is the only divided country in the world, and they need us here. Just like American troops were needed in Europe for defense against the Iron Curtain. Yes it has fallen and is not the threat it was, but the troop level had drastically fallen too. But they are still there.

The same think will happen in Iraq. When they no longer need the number of American troops there, that number will be lowered. Will it go to zero? I don't think so. But I am answering that question from a dorm room, 110 miles from a few million North Koreans who really want me dead (and they don't even know me!:laugh2:).

The troops in Iraq will come home when they can, and when Iraq can do what our troops are doing for them. To prematurely remove them would have drastic consequences.

AF:salute:

[Yurt]

we are the world's policeman then

[AFbombloader]

we are the world's policeman then

We have been since the second world war. Maybe even since the first.

[avatar4321]

we are the world's policeman then

Unfortunately, I think until we are energy independent, we have to be.

[gabosaurus]

what i want to know is when are we going to withdraw from...germany, japan, italy, england, south korea..etc.....etc.....etc.....

Tell me where the active fighting is going on in any of those countries.
Besides, we entered thouse countries legally. Often with consent.
We are not in Iraq legally, and they certainly did not consent to our invasion.
If you want to use Bush's logic on why he invaded Iraq, why are we not preparing an invasion of Zimbabwe?

[manu1959]

Tell me where the active fighting is going on in any of those countries.
Besides, we entered thouse countries legally. Often with consent.
We are not in Iraq legally, and they certainly did not consent to our invasion.
If you want to use Bush's logic on why he invaded Iraq, why are we not preparing an invasion of Zimbabwe?

really who decides if the invasion of a country is legal....and i don't rcall japan germany or italy granting thier consent to be invaded by the us.....

[Sitarro]

Tell me where the active fighting is going on in any of those countries.
Besides, we entered thouse countries legally. Often with consent.
We are not in Iraq legally, and they certainly did not consent to our invasion.
If you want to use Bush's logic on why he invaded Iraq, why are we not preparing an invasion of Zimbabwe?

We might be, I am sure the Pentagon has plans set up for it along with every other problem place in the world........ I bet it would really piss you off if we did, wouldn't it.

You might want to check where you half African boy's allegiance, is to, he may be getting us into numerous African countries, I'm sure he and Jeremiah Wright are praying on it as we speak.

How does it sit with you that Obama will not get our troops out of Iraq any time soon?

[gabosaurus]

Obama has stated that he still intends to hold fast to his 16-month time line. I would prefer having all the troops out within six months, but I suppose that is not going to happen.

If Mugabe insults Obama's daddy, perhaps we will invade Zimbabwe with 100,000 troops. And we will threaten Chad as well.
I am sure the bitter defeated Republicans will scream bloody murder. From inside their glass houses.

[manu1959]

Obama has stated that he still intends to hold fast to his 16-month time line. I would prefer having all the troops out within six months, but I suppose that is not going to happen.

If Mugabe insults Obama's daddy, perhaps we will invade Zimbabwe with 100,000 troops. And we will threaten Chad as well.
I am sure the bitter defeated Republicans will scream bloody murder. From inside their glass houses.

can you say rawanda......

[Sitarro]

Obama has stated that he still intends to hold fast to his 16-month time line. I would prefer having all the troops out within six months, but I suppose that is not going to happen.

If Mugabe insults Obama's daddy, perhaps we will invade Zimbabwe with 100,000 troops. And we will threaten Chad as well.
I am sure the bitter defeated Republicans will scream bloody murder. From inside their glass houses.


Sure he will and he never knew his Pastor of 20 years was an ignorant, racist baboon...... errr buffoon...... that's what I meant, really....... naive much?:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

So you won't have a problem with Obama sending U.S. troops to his and Jeremiah's home continent of Africa...... interesting.

[avatar4321]

Tell me where the active fighting is going on in any of those countries.
Besides, we entered thouse countries legally. Often with consent.
We are not in Iraq legally, and they certainly did not consent to our invasion.
If you want to use Bush's logic on why he invaded Iraq, why are we not preparing an invasion of Zimbabwe?

You're actually going to claim that Germany and Japan consented to our invasion? Seriously Gabs, sometimes you are very intelligent, other times I dont think you think what you type out.

As far as I know, Zimbabwe does not have a WMD program. They don't have a history of invading our allies. They don't have a history of supporting terrorism against our allies. And is not strategically located next to any other terror states. Are you honestly telling me that you still don't understand why we went into Iraq?

[Sitarro]

You're actually going to claim that Germany and Japan consented to our invasion? Seriously Gabs, sometimes you are very intelligent, other times I dont think you think what you type out.

As far as I know, Zimbabwe does not have a WMD program. They don't have a history of invading our allies. They don't have a history of supporting terrorism against our allies. And is not strategically located next to any other terror states. Are you honestly telling me that you still don't understand why we went into Iraq?

She doesn't, none of them do....... they are still living in the September10th, 2001 world.

[PostmodernProphet]

This is one of Obama's campaign promises, and I would certainly hope he upheld it. But why wait 16 months? Complete withdrawal should take no more than 12 months, at most.
It is time for Iraq to stand up for itself. If it doesn't want to take that stand, than it obviously does not wish to do so.

If I recall correctly, you believed Pelosi, too....

[mundame]

Obama has stated that he still intends to hold fast to his 16-month time line. I would prefer having all the troops out within six months, but I suppose that is not going to happen.

It's unlikely to happen at all. The war will drag on years more, since Obama is already reneging on his campaign promise.



If Mugabe insults Obama's daddy, perhaps we will invade Zimbabwe with 100,000 troops. And we will threaten Chad as well.
I am sure the bitter defeated Republicans will scream bloody murder. From inside their glass houses.

Very likely Obama will be hung up in Africa constantly. Though we have no interests in Africa and there is no point in our sending troops there.

[Trigg]

This is one of Obama's campaign promises, and I would certainly hope he upheld it. But why wait 16 months? Complete withdrawal should take no more than 12 months, at most.
It is time for Iraq to stand up for itself. If it doesn't want to take that stand, than it obviously does not wish to do so.


Iraq has met 15 of the 18 goals set for them already. So, if, we are able to pull out of Iraq soon after the election it will not be because of anything Obama or McCain has done.

Obama knows he is not going to be able to leave Iraq hanging and is already qualifying his "out of Iraq" comments.



David Axelrod, Obama’s chief strategist, began backing off during remarks Wednesday on CNN’s “Situation Room,” telling guest host John Roberts that Obama has actually advocated “a phased withdrawal, with benchmarks for the Iraqi government to meet, that called for strategic pauses, based on the progress on these benchmarks and advice on the commanders on the ground.”

[mundame]

Iraq has met 15 of the 18 goals set for them already. So, if, we are able to pull out of Iraq soon after the election it will not be because of anything Obama or McCain has done.

Obama knows he is not going to be able to leave Iraq hanging and is already qualifying his "out of Iraq" comments.

David Axelrod, Obama’s chief strategist, began backing off during remarks Wednesday on CNN’s “Situation Room,” telling guest host John Roberts that Obama has actually advocated “a phased withdrawal, with benchmarks for the Iraqi government to meet, that called for strategic pauses, based on the progress on these benchmarks and advice on the commanders on the ground.”


This is like the NAFTA thing, where Obama's advisor went to Canada and promised them nothing would change, it was all just empty campaigning.

Same with the war, I suppose. He promises to end it, but he won't end it.