Hate America

[midcan5]

Hate is an extremely strong emotion, it may be, after love, the strongest emotion. So how can it be that people who speak up about what they consider wrong with America are labeled this way?

Hate often points back to oneself, it can mean that we feel uncomfortable with some idea or some person or some way of acting that is not consistent with our own thinking. But what changes the discomfort to hate. Does it mean maybe you are wrong in your thinking or is the other person saying you are wrong through their actions and ideas. We like to feel comfortable. We like to feel we are right.

When someone says CEOs are robbing us, someone else thinks they earned it, or they think the speaker is a socialist. Or someone says gays have every right we do, ‘let them marry.’ Another thinks that right contradicts their personal religious beliefs. The images of free markets or of marriage are strong realities for some. Mary Midgley, a philosopher, considers these ways of framing our understanding the myths we live by.

Anyone who has raised children knows the dilemma of criticism, knows there is a balance that says, this is the right way to correct the child, or this the wrong. Or at least they try. How long does one rationalize with a five year old? Do they hate their children when they correct them? Do those who say maybe this is a wrong policy hate America?

Often our disagreements hinge on responsibility. Whose fault is poverty? Do the poor decide they want to be poor? When do we make these decisions. The answer is we do not, there is no level starting point where we all start at the gun and the best woman wins. But that individualistic choice remains a powerful American myth, it is both cultural and religious based.

I would propose that those who label others as ‘hate America’ for their critical look at American policies are those that could be labeled the ‘hate Americans.’ Why? What they really hate is America’s diversity of opinion, its freedom, what they desire is an adherence to their own ideology, their own myths. In an ironic twist it is really those who label others hate Americans who put themselves in a position that is un-American.

[Hagbard Celine]

http://my.opera.com/Chyren/homes/files/ccat_trans.png

Ceiling cat agrees.

[Dilloduck]

Hate is an extremely strong emotion, it may be, after love, the strongest emotion. So how can it be that people who speak up about what they consider wrong with America are labeled this way?

Hate often points back to oneself, it can mean that we feel uncomfortable with some idea or some person or some way of acting that is not consistent with our own thinking. But what changes the discomfort to hate. Does it mean maybe you are wrong in your thinking or is the other person saying you are wrong through their actions and ideas. We like to feel comfortable. We like to feel we are right.

When someone says CEOs are robbing us, someone else thinks they earned it, or they think the speaker is a socialist. Or someone says gays have every right we do, ‘let them marry.’ Another thinks that right contradicts their personal religious beliefs. The images of free markets or of marriage are strong realities for some. Mary Midgley, a philosopher, considers these ways of framing our understanding the myths we live by.

Anyone who has raised children knows the dilemma of criticism, knows there is a balance that says, this is the right way to correct the child, or this the wrong. Or at least they try. How long does one rationalize with a five year old? Do they hate their children when they correct them? Do those who say maybe this is a wrong policy hate America?

Often our disagreements hinge on responsibility. Whose fault is poverty? Do the poor decide they want to be poor? When do we make these decisions. The answer is we do not, there is no level starting point where we all start at the gun and the best woman wins. But that individualistic choice remains a powerful American myth, it is both cultural and religious based.

I would propose that those who label others as ‘hate America’ for their critical look at American policies are those that could be labeled the ‘hate Americans.’ Why? What they really hate is America’s diversity of opinion, its freedom, what they desire is an adherence to their own ideology, their own myths. In an ironic twist it is really those who label others hate Americans who put themselves in a position that is un-American.

Simple---haters continually post negative after negative about what's wrong with America. They constantly look for news that shows America in a shitty light. They have taken a "side" and that "side" they choose to focus on are all the negatives. You have no diversity of opinion---who are you kidding ?

[5stringJeff]

I would propose that those who label others as ‘hate America’ for their critical look at American policies are those that could be labeled the ‘hate Americans.’ Why? What they really hate is America’s diversity of opinion, its freedom, what they desire is an adherence to their own ideology, their own myths. In an ironic twist it is really those who label others hate Americans who put themselves in a position that is un-American.

So by labeling those who label others as "America haters" as "America haters," do you then become an "America hater?"

[actsnoblemartin]

brilliant thread, im quite proud and impressed with you


Hate is an extremely strong emotion, it may be, after love, the strongest emotion. So how can it be that people who speak up about what they consider wrong with America are labeled this way?

I think its the way you (not you personally) say things, that determines how people perceive you

Hate often points back to oneself, it can mean that we feel uncomfortable with some idea or some person or some way of acting that is not consistent with our own thinking. But what changes the discomfort to hate. Does it mean maybe you are wrong in your thinking or is the other person saying you are wrong through their actions and ideas. We like to feel comfortable. We like to feel we are right.

I agree that we like to feel comfortable, but i think it goes back to civility, if someone eloquently says I disagree with the war, that is different from doing some of the actions of code pink.

Same with someone who says I do not agree with abortion, vs someone who yells derogatory names at people he disagrees with.

Take newspapers, like the Philadelphia who slander america, not by saying america is not perfect, or saying how it could be better, but slandering it for daring to celebrate its independence and insinuating its evil.

I do agree that calling someone a hater, without discretion is not a good thing.

By the way, I think this is a very good thread



When someone says CEOs are robbing us, someone else thinks they earned it, or they think the speaker is a socialist.

I agree with your statement, I dont agree ceo's should be fleecing their workers, or under-paying them

Or someone says gays have every right we do, ‘let them marry.’ Another thinks that right contradicts their personal religious beliefs.

Wait a minute, you have the right to be pro-gay marriage, and others dont have the right to disagree with you on that?

The images of free markets or of marriage are strong realities for some. Mary Midgley, a philosopher, considers these ways of framing our understanding the myths we live by.

Right, but gays have never been allowed to marry, you do realize that sir? :cheers2:


Anyone who has raised children knows the dilemma of criticism,

Yes, I believe children need discipline, but also need alot of praise too

knows there is a balance that says, this is the right way to correct the child, or this the wrong. Or at least they try.

I agree, let people teach and raise their kids, however they wish as long as the kids are being abused.

How long does one rationalize with a five year old? Do they hate their children when they correct them? Do those who say maybe this is a wrong policy hate America?

Absolutely NOT, disagreeing is not why i believe that SOME, not all democrats hate america, I believe its the words that are chosen by some democrats and the way that those democrats use them. Words matter, and how they are said matters too. I dont believe in blindly loving america without using critical thinking skills, to remember the past both good and bad. But to say, the military is evil, or republicans are nazi's, or america is an immoral nation, isnt exactly loving is it?

Often our disagreements hinge on responsibility. Whose fault is poverty?

I think that is not an easy question

Do the poor decide they want to be poor?


some do, some dont

When do we make these decisions. The answer is we do not, there is no level starting point where we all start at the gun and the best woman wins.


well, if you choose to have sex, use drugs, or not stay in school, arent you chooisng to be poor, even if you dont know it?, because you can get pregnant, become addicted or not graduate?

But that individualistic choice remains a powerful American myth, it is both cultural and religious based.

I would propose that those who label others as ‘hate America’ for their critical look at American policies are those that could be labeled the ‘hate Americans.’ Why? What they really hate is America’s diversity of opinion,

Diversity is one thing, but sometimes diversity breeds stupidity, diversity breeds the abortion clinic bomber, the islamic terrorist, pedophiles, illegal immigration enablers, animal freedom nuts, and so on and so on.

its freedom, what they desire is an adherence to their own ideology,

I agree, we had people saying, you must bow down and kiss bush's ass, and agree with the war, that was wrong. its a very thin line between disagreeing, and being an asshole about it, and a thin line between believing in something, and forcing others to believe what you believe


their own myths. In an ironic twist it is really those who label others hate Americans who put themselves in a position that is un-American.

[GW in Ohio]

Simple---haters continually post negative after negative about what's wrong with America. They constantly look for news that shows America in a shitty light. They have taken a "side" and that "side" they choose to focus on are all the negatives. You have no diversity of opinion---who are you kidding ?

The people who are labeled by right-wingers as "America haters" are actually haters of the Bush administration and the devastation it has wrought in our economy, our military, our foreign policy, and our reputation overseas.

But it serves the partisan purposes of Rush Limbaugh and many right-wingers here to label us "America haters."

I think you guys are smart enough to recognize the point I made in my first paragraph, but truthfulness takes a backseat to partisanship sometimes.

[GW in Ohio]

The people who are labeled by right-wingers as "America haters" are actually haters of the Bush administration and the devastation it has wrought in our economy, our military, our foreign policy, and our reputation overseas.

But it serves the partisan purposes of Rush Limbaugh and many right-wingers here to label us "America haters."

I think you guys are smart enough to recognize the point I made in my first paragraph, but truthfulness takes a backseat to partisanship sometimes.

Once President Obama is sworn in and Mr. Bush is relegated to the dustbin of history, you won't hear a lot of negative stuff coming from leftists.

But if you want to hear some right-wing whine, just stay tuned.....

:lalala::lalala::lalala:

[Dilloduck]

Once President Obama is sworn in and Mr. Bush is relegated to the dustbin of history, you won't hear a lot of negative stuff coming from leftists.

But if you want to hear some right-wing whine, just stay tuned.....

:lalala::lalala::lalala:

Thanks for making the point. Liberals will claim America is wonderful if a Democrat is president yet would be willing to torch it if a Republican is in office. That's not caring about America---thats putting politics ahead of America.

[Hagbard Celine]

Thanks for making the point. Liberals will claim America is wonderful if a Democrat is president yet would be willing to torch it if a Republican is in office. That's not caring about America---thats putting politics ahead of America.

That's not true at all.

[retiredman]

Thanks for making the point. Liberals will claim America is wonderful if a Democrat is president yet would be willing to torch it if a Republican is in office. That's not caring about America---thats putting politics ahead of America.

And what will conservatives think when President Obama and the Democratic congress start America down the path dictated by the democratic party platform? Will they have anything good to say about THAT?

[April15]

Midcan,
The machine says i can't rep you. You made a valid argument.

[avatar4321]

And what will conservatives think when President Obama and the Democratic congress start America down the path dictated by the democratic party platform? Will they have anything good to say about THAT?

We are going to be doing everything we can to stop the loss of freedom and survive.

That's the difference between Conservatives and Liberals. When times get rough for liberals, they whine. When times get rough for conservatives they get off their ass and get to work.

[April15]

The people who are labeled by right-wingers as "America haters" are actually haters of the Bush administration and the devastation it has wrought in our economy, our military, our foreign policy, and our reputation overseas.

But it serves the partisan purposes of Rush Limbaugh and many right-wingers here to label us "America haters."

I think you guys are smart enough to recognize the point I made in my first paragraph, but truthyness fulness takes a backseat to partisanship sometimes.Well when one has as divisive a person as the shrub truthyness is all the partisans have!

[retiredman]

We are going to be doing everything we can to stop the loss of freedom and survive.

That's the difference between Conservatives and Liberals. When times get rough for liberals, they whine. When times get rough for conservatives they get off their ass and get to work.

and you don't think that the election of Barack Obama will have been the result of liberals getting off their asses and getting to work?:lol:

[GW in Ohio]

We are going to be doing everything we can to stop the loss of freedom and survive.

That's the difference between Conservatives and Liberals. When times get rough for liberals, they whine. When times get rough for conservatives they get off their ass and get to work.

I think we should all stand and give those noble, heroic conservatives a rousing round of applause for being the wonderful people they are.

:salute::clap::salute:

[actsnoblemartin]

I think that excellently sums up what im trying to say :clap:


Simple---haters continually post negative after negative about what's wrong with America. They constantly look for news that shows America in a shitty light. They have taken a "side" and that "side" they choose to focus on are all the negatives. You have no diversity of opinion---who are you kidding ?

[Hagbard Celine]

I think we should all stand and give those noble, heroic conservatives a rousing round of applause for being the wonderful people they are.

:salute::clap::salute:

Thanks Conservatives, for all the "hard work" you're doing to take away women's rights, shred the first amendment by calling for prayer in schools, pervert the right to liberty by attempting to write discrimination in to the Constitution, destroying our economy by overwhelmingly supporting tax cuts for only the largest corporations, knee-capping the middle class with those same tax cuts, protesting the start-up of universal healthcare, for making immigrants feel unwelcome and unwanted in "the nation of immigrants," for your undying support of a misguided, illegal war and for generally being bigoted, self-righteous hypocritical assh*les. Thanks for all your "hard work" Conservatives! Yeah! :thumb:

[April15]

Simple---haters continually post negative after negative about what's wrong with America. They constantly look for news that shows America in a shitty light. They have taken a "side" and that "side" they choose to focus on are all the negatives. You have no diversity of opinion---who are you kidding ?Well with todays leaders it is hard to find anything to cheery about. The critisisms you hear are not so much negative as a reflection of concern for the nation we grew up loving. Before you can correct an error you must first accept that it has occurred. And as long as the Shrub denies error the concerned critisism will continue.

[Hagbard Celine]

Simple---haters continually post negative after negative about what's wrong with America. They constantly look for news that shows America in a shitty light. They have taken a "side" and that "side" they choose to focus on are all the negatives. You have no diversity of opinion---who are you kidding ?

Nope. Ever heard the adage "we're hardest on those we love most?"

[Dilloduck]

and you don't think that the election of Barack Obama will have been the result of liberals getting off their asses and getting to work?:lol:

That's the problem again. You think that by just electing Democrats the work is over. Everything that you hate know will suddenly be forgotten or blamed on someone else. If you want the presidency then own it. Let's see what will DO if he is elected and how much he is willing to take responsibility for.

Truthfully you have NO CLUE what he will do if he gets there and you already think he's the best think since sliced bread.

[avatar4321]

and you don't think that the election of Barack Obama will have been the result of liberals getting off their asses and getting to work?:lol:

Actually, no. It's going to make sure more liberals are dependent on government. So quite the opposite.

That's the problem with cradle to grave government. It's nice to promise everyone they dont have to worry about anything. But eventually someone has to pay. And those people tend to get pissed after being used for a while.

[April15]

Actually, no. It's going to make sure more liberals are dependent on government. So quite the opposite.

That's the problem with cradle to grave government. It's nice to promise everyone they dont have to worry about anything. But eventually someone has to pay. And those people tend to get pissed after being used for a while.Well my friend the time to pay is long overdue! Obama will raise taxes and bring home or pull out of Iraq in a timely manner.

[Yurt]

April15;266781]Well my friend the time to pay is long overdue!

huh? are you well...


Obama will raise taxes

why people are silly enough to vote for someone who promises to raise taxes is beyond me....in the immortal words of DMP:

this thing is beyond my comprehension

:laugh2:


and bring home or pull out of Iraq in a timely manner.

:lol: say what...

[avatar4321]

Well my friend the time to pay is long overdue! Obama will raise taxes and bring home or pull out of Iraq in a timely manner.

What the fact that everyone who works has to pay all of his salary until april to pay off the government isnt enough for you?

[Abbey Marie]

Well my friend the time to pay is long overdue! Obama will raise taxes and bring home or pull out of Iraq in a timely manner.

Perhaps I am remembering it wrong, but I thought you of all people had problems with taxes.

[Yurt]

Perhaps I am remembering it wrong, but I thought you of all people had problems with taxes.

mayhaps computing them

[Abbey Marie]

mayhaps computing them

:)
There's his screen name, plus I really thought I remembered him saying that he go into financial trouble in connection with paying his taxes. :dunno: Seems to me that Obammy would be the last Prez you'd want in that situation. Unless of course, you have almost no income at all.

[Yurt]

:)
There's his screen name, plus I really thought I remembered him saying that he go into financial trouble in connection with paying his taxes. :dunno:

i don't know, maybe he is bitter and doesn't have a gun or religion to clilng to

[Abbey Marie]

i don't know, maybe he is bitter and doesn't have a gun or religion to clilng to

My gun-shaped Bible is all I need. :laugh2:

[5stringJeff]

Well my friend the time to pay is long overdue! Obama will raise taxes and bring home or pull out of Iraq in a timely manner.

Since you want to pay higher taxes, how about you just give all of your money to the government, and then not vote for Obama? That way, we get to keep our money, which we want, and you get to pay more, which you want.

[retiredman]

Actually, no. It's going to make sure more liberals are dependent on government. So quite the opposite.

That's the problem with cradle to grave government. It's nice to promise everyone they dont have to worry about anything. But eventually someone has to pay. And those people tend to get pissed after being used for a while.

and they they rise up and elect a republican congress because they think that will make them less pissed with goernment, but that doesn't seem to work, so they give it back to the democrats.

cry me a fucking river.

[Yurt]

and they they rise up and elect a republican congress because they think that will make them less pissed with goernment, but that doesn't seem to work, so they give it back to the democrats.

cry me a fucking river.

why, you have already cried yourself your own river, now paddle big boy, paddle preacher, lead your flock

[April15]

Perhaps I am remembering it wrong, but I thought you of all people had problems with taxes.I had no problem with taxes. Maybe bankruptcy in 85 is what you remember. That trickledown economics worked well for me!

[April15]

Since you want to pay higher taxes, how about you just give all of your money to the government, and then not vote for Obama? That way, we get to keep our money, which we want, and you get to pay more, which you want.This is a community problem not an individual problem so everyone gets to pay for the gross neglegence of the last 30 years.

[Yurt]

I had no problem with taxes. Maybe bankruptcy in 85 is what you remember. That trickledown economics worked well for me!

explain exactly how that economic model caused your bankruptcy

[April15]

explain exactly how that economic model caused your bankruptcyWhen the tide rose not all boats floated.

[Yurt]

When the tide rose not all boats floated.

so reagan was responsible for your boat that did not float? we can all build boats, the tide will always come and go, whether or not our boats float, is up to us, not the tide.

happy 4th

[Abbey Marie]

I had no problem with taxes. Maybe bankruptcy in 85 is what you remember. That trickledown economics worked well for me!

That must have been it. Sorry for the mistake. So why the April 15 moniker?

[Silver]

Simple---haters continually post negative after negative about what's wrong with America. They constantly look for news that shows America in a shitty light. They have taken a "side" and that "side" they choose to focus on are all the negatives. You have no diversity of opinion---who are you kidding ?

Simple---haters continually post negative after negative about what's wrong with America. They constantly look for news that shows America in a shitty light. They have taken a "side" and that "side" they choose to focus on are all the negatives.

Now , there you go .....what could be more to the simple truth than Delloduck's post....
Its almost profound in its accuracy.....

In essence, the post says.......Middie is a fuckin' anti-American asshole..

Its a fact so plain to most of us that its a wonder you don't see those exact words posted every day..."Middy is an anti-American asshole...."

and I would add...He's too damn stupid to realize it....he thinks hes a good democrat......well, maybe I'm wrong......

being an anti-American asshole is being a good Democrat, in reality:fu:...

[retiredman]

I LOVE my country. I served her for a quarter of a century in uniform. I mourn when she goes off the track and yearn for the day when she regains her focus and her sense of rightness.

[avatar4321]

I LOVE my country. I served her for a quarter of a century in uniform. I mourn when she goes off the track and yearn for the day when she regains her focus and her sense of rightness.

Then why on earth are you intending to take her further off track with policies that were proven failures decades ago?

[Silver]

I LOVE my country. I served her for a quarter of a century in uniform. I mourn when she goes off the track and yearn for the day when she regains her focus and her sense of rightness.

Hello MM....the thrust of my post was as follows....do you agree?

Simple---haters continually post negative after negative about what's wrong with America. They constantly look for news that shows America in a shitty light. They have taken a "side" and that "side" they choose to focus on are all the negatives.
-------------
Its like watching the same movie every day....
certain posters post the same NEGATIVE shit day after day.....day in and day out....like clockwork.....

Does that ever hit a nerve with you as it does with me????:salute:

[retiredman]

Hello MM....the thrust of my post was as follows....do you agree?

Simple---haters continually post negative after negative about what's wrong with America. They constantly look for news that shows America in a shitty light. They have taken a "side" and that "side" they choose to focus on are all the negatives.
-------------
Its like watching the same movie every day....
certain posters post the same NEGATIVE shit day after day.....day in and day out....like clockwork.....

Does that ever hit a nerve with you as it does with me????:salute:

certain posters post the same negative shit day after day because the conditions that underlie those negative feelings continue to exist day after day.

I love my country. I HATE the fact that my country invaded Iraq. As long as my country continues to occupy Iraq, I will have negative feelings about that military venture and I will continue to voice those feelings.

That does not mean that I have somehow stopped loving my country simply because I disagree with one foreign policy decision made by my country's ruling administration.

[Silver]

Well hell...even I disagree with some issues too....thats perfectly normal...


We've had a pretty damn good economy for the last 7 years mm.....

Not perfect, of course....by damn good by most measurements....agree ???

[Silver]

We've gone though a very very traumatic expierence with the 9/11 ,................. is that an accurate statement?
Costly in lives and money and untold heartache to thousands of New Yorkers that expierenced the event.....

The leadership in New York and Washington was at the very least "adequate" to the surprise attack on our country....would you at lease agree to that....

[avatar4321]

certain posters post the same negative shit day after day because the conditions that underlie those negative feelings continue to exist day after day.

I love my country. I HATE the fact that my country invaded Iraq. As long as my country continues to occupy Iraq, I will have negative feelings about that military venture and I will continue to voice those feelings.

That does not mean that I have somehow stopped loving my country simply because I disagree with one foreign policy decision made by my country's ruling administration.

Crazy idea:

If you love your country but hate that we went into Iraq. Instead of supporting the "run away" solution, you support the "Let's win quickly so our troups can come home" solution. You know, the solution that doesn't make things worse. The one that doesn't involve you attacking every single action the military takes to win the war.

But heaven forbid you support your country actually winning. You have to make sure we lose just so you can score political points. Heaven forbid you support the troops in their mission, even if you disagree with the politics that put them in that mission to begin with. They are there now. Pulling out and ensuring their efforts have been wasted isn't going to change that.

[Dilloduck]

I LOVE my country. I served her for a quarter of a century in uniform. I mourn when she goes off the track and yearn for the day when she regains her focus and her sense of rightness.

When your mourning consists of something more than conservative character assasination I may be impressed.

[retiredman]

Crazy idea:

If you love your country but hate that we went into Iraq. Instead of supporting the "run away" solution, you support the "Let's win quickly so our troups can come home" solution. You know, the solution that doesn't make things worse. The one that doesn't involve you attacking every single action the military takes to win the war.

But heaven forbid you support your country actually winning. You have to make sure we lose just so you can score political points. Heaven forbid you support the troops in their mission, even if you disagree with the politics that put them in that mission to begin with. They are there now. Pulling out and ensuring their efforts have been wasted isn't going to change that.

Crazy idea:

Just maybe, someone might accept the fact that SOME people not only think that our invasion of Iraq was a bad idea, but also think that no matter what we do or try to do in Iraq for however long we do or try to do it, the sunnis and the shiites of that artificially formed country will NEVER choose to live together in a peaceful, multicultural jeffersonian democracy. SOME people honestly believe that the first thing one should do when one finds onesself in a hole is to STOP DIGGING. I desperately want to win the war against islamic extremism and happen to believe that our remaining in Iraq is - and will continue to be - counterproductive to that initiative.

[April15]

Crazy idea:

Just maybe, someone might accept the fact that SOME people not only think that our invasion of Iraq was a bad idea, but also think that no matter what we do or try to do in Iraq for however long we do or try to do it, the sunnis and the shiites of that artificially formed country will NEVER choose to live together in a peaceful, multicultural jeffersonian democracy. SOME people honestly believe that the first thing one should do when one finds onesself in a hole is to STOP DIGGING. I desperately want to win the war against islamic extremism and happen to believe that our remaining in Iraq is - and will continue to be - counterproductive to that initiative.
A couple of additional points if I may. Kurds. Islamic extremism is an idea. Ideas generally don't die but have very slow deaths.