Top 5 presidents of all time...

[Insein]

I saw a list recently by some so called prestigious group on their top 5 presidents. It made me think that we've never really had the debate before here (both boards).

Here's my top 5.

1. George Washington: He established what a president should be. He was a good military leader but also listened to the social concerns of the nation. Also he could have become king of america had he truly wanted to after being elected for 12 years but he gave the power back to the people by stepping down. Protypical American President and has to be #1 overall.

2. Thomas Jefferson: A true Republican. He founded the principles of minimal government and opposed every form of tyranny against man (aside from slavery at the time apparently). He would be considered a Radical to the hardest core from the Right today wanting the government to stay out of everyday life as much as possible. Also made the LA Purchase gaining a huge chunk of land and resources for the USA.

3. Abraham Lincoln: He might have been one of the most unpopular presidents in the history of the US, but he is one of the most important. He kept this country together at its most dire time in history. If not for Abe's controversial decisions, we would not have a USA like we do today.

4. Franklin Roosevelt: He created a few government programs that still stifle us today, but he made a nation regain its national pride in the depths of the Great Depression. "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself" rings true today as it did then. He made a nation believe in itself again.

5. Ronald Reagan: Similar to FDR, he got a nation that was going through a recession, facing ridiculous interest rates, gas shortages, Soviet Fear, Iran hostage crisis, etc to believe in itself again. He stood up to evil in the world and didnt flinch by demanding that the Soviet Union tear down the Berlin wall and let those people from the East free. He built up the military and modernized their weaponry forcing the enemy to bankrupt itself under the communist system. He forced the Soviet Union to crumble without firing a single shot (so to speak cause there were minor skirmishes) by forcing their hand and not allowing them to impose fear on the world any longer. He also restarted the conservative movement by getting people to return to less government and more personal responsibility principles.

[LiberalNation]

Ronald Reagan would in No way be on my list. he was not all that great of a president.

My list

George Washington- first president helped found the country ect.

Thomas Jefferson- for buying the Louisiana purchase and doubling the size of the US.

Teddy Roosevelt- for inspiring the nation, being one of the great a trust busters, started the panama Canal.

Franklin Roosevelt- Brought America back from the Great depression. Important during WW2.

James K Polk- expanded the US greatly with the Mexican American War even though he is not well remembered I'd say he's was more important to the country than Reagan.

[5stringJeff]

1. Washington, no doubt.

2. Jefferson. Probably had the best outlook on the role of the federal gov't of any president we've had.

3. Andrew Jackson, for fighting the Bank of the United States and for working towards the vision of an America that stretched from coast to coast.

4. Teddy Roosevelt. The president who made the US a true world power.

5. Ronald Reagan. Won the Cold War and understood government better than anyone since Jefferson.

Honorable mention: Calvin Coolidge, the original supply side economics President!

[eighballsidepocket]

1. Washington
2. Lincoln
3. Teddy Roosevelt
4. Ronald Reagan
5. Franklin Roosevelt

I know I'm going to get flak for this, but I'd even nominate Richard Nixon. He said he'd get us out of Vietnam and he did it. He did a lot of things militarily that LBJ wouldn't do.......He mined Haiphong Harbor and that stopped the sea delivery of SAM's by the U.S.S.R.. He invaded Cambodia, basically he followed through with his campaign promise to get our fighting men home.

Nixon was a commie hater, and yet still opened up China in ways that many might think are a curse to the U.S. now, but actually Nixon opened up the populous of China to exposure to democracy, free enterprise......etc... He may some day, in retrospect go down as the man that brought down the Communist regime of China, because he made the first "crack" in the Red wall, that hasn't been closed. Don't think that those Chinese students for Democracy in Tinamen square have been forgotten.

China may be hitting us with a deluge of products that keep us in a constant negative import deficit, but also remember that China also needs our consumer dollars like we need Middle East Oil. Both China and ourselves have vested interests that we don't want to jeopardize. That's why we walk on "egg shells" in the Middle East, and that's why we can pressure China to put pressure on N. Korea, and also keep them from invading Taiwan. China, whether they like it or not are hitched to us economically, and need us. That's our "ace" card. When we figure out how to become Middle East oil independent, the belligerent countrys there will not have an extortion hook in us anymore.

Nixon's Watergate will be a "spit" in the bucket one day in retrospect, compared to what his policies did for the long run.:salute:

[manu1959]

1. Washington
2. Lincoln
3. Teddy Roosevelt
4. Ronald Reagan
5. Franklin Roosevelt

I know I'm going to get flak for this, but I'd even nominate Richard Nixon. He said he'd get us out of Vietnam and he did it. He did a lot of things militarily that LBJ wouldn't do.......He mined Haiphong Harbor and that stopped the sea delivery of SAM's by the U.S.S.R.. He invaded Cambodia, basically he followed through with his campaign promise to get our fighting men home.

Nixon was a commie hater, and yet still opened up China in ways that many might think are a curse to the U.S. now, but actually Nixon opened up the populous of China to exposure to democracy, free enterprise......etc... He may some day, in retrospect go down as the man that brought down the Communist regime of China, because he made the first "crack" in the Red wall, that hasn't been closed. Don't think that those Chinese students for Democracy in Tinamen square have been forgotten.

China may be hitting us with a deluge of products that keep us in a constant negative import deficit, but also remember that China also needs our consumer dollars like we need Middle East Oil. Both China and ourselves have vested interests that we don't want to jeopardize. That's why we walk on "egg shells" in the Middle East, and that's why we can pressure China to put pressure on N. Korea, and also keep them from invading Taiwan. China, whether they like it or not are hitched to us economically, and need us. That's our "ace" card. When we figure out how to become Middle East oil independent, the belligerent countrys there will not have an extortion hook in us anymore.

Nixon's Watergate will be a "spit" in the bucket one day in retrospect, compared to what his policies did for the long run.:salute:

jfk got a pass on the bay of pigs.....i give nixon a pass on watergate.....i thought nixon was a fine president for the reasons you state

oh yea:

washington: started it
jeferson: defined it
linclon: held it together
fdr: defended it
reagan: defined it

[GW in Ohio]

I saw a list recently by some so called prestigious group on their top 5 presidents. It made me think that we've never really had the debate before here (both boards).

Here's my top 5.

1. George Washington: He established what a president should be. He was a good military leader but also listened to the social concerns of the nation. Also he could have become king of america had he truly wanted to after being elected for 12 years but he gave the power back to the people by stepping down. Protypical American President and has to be #1 overall.

2. Thomas Jefferson: A true Republican. He founded the principles of minimal government and opposed every form of tyranny against man (aside from slavery at the time apparently). He would be considered a Radical to the hardest core from the Right today wanting the government to stay out of everyday life as much as possible. Also made the LA Purchase gaining a huge chunk of land and resources for the USA.

3. Abraham Lincoln: He might have been one of the most unpopular presidents in the history of the US, but he is one of the most important. He kept this country together at its most dire time in history. If not for Abe's controversial decisions, we would not have a USA like we do today.

4. Franklin Roosevelt: He created a few government programs that still stifle us today, but he made a nation regain its national pride in the depths of the Great Depression. "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself" rings true today as it did then. He made a nation believe in itself again.

5. Ronald Reagan: Similar to FDR, he got a nation that was going through a recession, facing ridiculous interest rates, gas shortages, Soviet Fear, Iran hostage crisis, etc to believe in itself again. He stood up to evil in the world and didnt flinch by demanding that the Soviet Union tear down the Berlin wall and let those people from the East free. He built up the military and modernized their weaponry forcing the enemy to bankrupt itself under the communist system. He forced the Soviet Union to crumble without firing a single shot (so to speak cause there were minor skirmishes) by forcing their hand and not allowing them to impose fear on the world any longer. He also restarted the conservative movement by getting people to return to less government and more personal responsibility principles.

Your list is almost identical to mine, with one exception. I would move Lincoln to #5. Although he was a great leader during our most trying period, I also think he might have prevented the Civil War. If he had been more restrained during the occupation of Fort Sumter....if he had not sent federal troops into the South at that time but rather tried diplomacy, the Southern states might not have called up their militias in response to what they perceived as the threat of Northern aggression and the war might have been prevented.

But what the hell, hindsight is 20/20. If that asshole JW Boothe hadn't shot Lincoln, we would have had a much better reconstruction.

[glockmail]

FDR was a commie, IMO. He lengthened the Depression with his policies, created the entitlement society, which may eventually bring down this otherwise great US of A. True he was a warrior, but it could be argued that WW2 started due to crappy treatment of the Germans after WW1 and the lengthly world-wide economic despair that FDR was largely responsible for.

[GW in Ohio]

FDR was a commie.....

:lol: :laugh2: :dance: :laugh2: :lol:

You crack me up, man.....

[gabosaurus]

Certainly you can't be serious about Reagan. Have you forgot Iran Contra and arms for hostages? How about Reaganomics and his meddling in Central and South America?
Though I will give Reagan credit for being America's first vegetable president.

[glockmail]

FDR was a commie.....

:lol: :laugh2: :dance: :laugh2: :lol:

You crack me up, man..... Far easier to laugh then face reality. I expected more from you. :sad:

[glockmail]

....
Though I will give Reagan credit for being America's first vegetable president. Compassionate Liberal. An oxymoron if there ever was one.
http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/whack.gif

[jimnyc]

Though I will give Reagan credit for being America's first vegetable president.

Was that supposed to be funny?

I'm not a great historian, so I'm only going to nominate one that I lived through, and that was Ronald Reagan. He was a great president that lead us through some tough times, and was a damn good man personally as well. Some of his words still make me think about him today. He was a powerful man who was not just feared, but also respected by many.

And unlike the idiotic comments above, I find it very sad that his legacy ended the way it did, but was happy at the same time with the wonderful farewell he received.

[gabosaurus]

If you didn't notice that Reagan was a horrible leader, you weren't paying attention. His "Cowboy Ronnie" approach to foreign policy was disgraceful.
The more I read about Reagan, the more I am convinced that he was an idiot.

[jimnyc]

If you didn't notice that Reagan was a horrible leader, you weren't paying attention. His "Cowboy Ronnie" approach to foreign policy was disgraceful.
The more I read about Reagan, the more I am convinced that he was an idiot.

So you make light of someone who had a deadly disease because you didn't agree with his politics? Absolutely disgusting.

[gabosaurus]

So you make light of someone who had a deadly disease because you didn't agree with his politics? Absolutely disgusting.

I know. I am becoming more Republican with each passing day. :cool:

[jimnyc]

I know. I am becoming more Republican with each passing day. :cool:

I'll leave you to the rest here, I won't waste my time with someone that has no moral values and likes to laugh about the sadness he and his family endured.

I wonder how you would feel if unfortunately one of your family members was ever stricken with such a disease and someone laughed about their plight.

[gabosaurus]

True. I should leave the immorality and vindictiveness to Hannity and Colter.

[Dilloduck]

True. I should leave the immorality and vindictiveness to Hannity and Colter.

naaaa---you have too much fun trying to create havoc here !!!

[musicman]

Certainly you can't be serious about Reagan. Have you forgot Iran Contra and arms for hostages?

What do YOU know about it? Let's discuss the Boland Amendments - the true impetus behind the crisis. Wouldn't you agree that they were treasonous? As were the actions of John Kerry, Jim Wright, and the entire Democrat-controlled House of Representatives? What else would you call undercutting U.S. foreign policy WHILE IN ELECTED OFFICE? Why do you think the Democrats were so happy to let this topic die? Do you ever hear them arguing any of the SPECIFICS of this case? No, you don't. They come out of it loooking like idiots or cowards at best; traitors at the more likely worst. Do YOU know any of the specifics, or are you content with dark, murky allusions?


How about Reaganomics

One of the longest sustained economic booms in U.S. history, all done while breaking the Soviet Union's balls. How ABOUT Reaganomics??!!


and his meddling in Central and South America?


Oh - is that the new liberalspeak for halting Soviet expansionism into the Western Hemisphere, despite the best heroic efforts of Democrat traitors to thwart him - "meddling"?

[GW in Ohio]

Certainly you can't be serious about Reagan. Have you forgot Iran Contra and arms for hostages? How about Reaganomics and his meddling in Central and South America?
Though I will give Reagan credit for being America's first vegetable president.

gabosaurus: Reagan took office at a time when the country was dispirited by Watergate and its aftermath. The country was also suffereing from double-digit, runaway inflation. I still remember the gas-rationing of the '70s, when you could only buy gas on certain days.

Jimmy Carter's policies had not served the country well, and Reagan, with his optimistic attitude and kick-ass approach to foreign policy, were just what was needed at the time. Reagan was a strong leader who gave people hope and confidence. That confidence carried over to the economy.

I also think Reagan's tax cuts and trickle-down economics worked at that point in time.

Reagan had a lot to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union. I believe he deliberately lured them into an arms race, knowing that it would bankrupt their economy (which was based on untenable principles).

He was a great president. Just contrast America and the world in 1980 when he took office with 1988, when he left office. Big difference.

[CSM]

If you didn't notice that Reagan was a horrible leader, you weren't paying attention. His "Cowboy Ronnie" approach to foreign policy was disgraceful.
The more I read about Reagan, the more I am convinced that he was an idiot.

Aw cmon. We all know you can't read. We also know you only have two brain cells; one is apparently busy keeping you alive and the other is busy putting your foot in your mouth.

As for Reagan's foreign policy, it worked just fine!

[glockmail]

If you didn't notice that Reagan was a horrible leader, you weren't paying attention. His "Cowboy Ronnie" approach to foreign policy was disgraceful.
The more I read about Reagan, the more I am convinced that he was an idiot.

Gotta luv it. "If Conservative, then stoopid". You used this with Ann Coulter in the other active thread.

Your arguments are right out of the DNC playbook. :slap:

[glockmail]

I know. I am becoming more Republican with each passing day. :cool:

Just beautiful! More DNC tactics. How special! :pee:

[Insein]

gabosaurus: Reagan took office at a time when the country was dispirited by Watergate and its aftermath. The country was also suffereing from double-digit, runaway inflation. I still remember the gas-rationing of the '70s, when you could only buy gas on certain days.

Jimmy Carter's policies had not served the country well, and Reagan, with his optimistic attitude and kick-ass approach to foreign policy, were just what was needed at the time. Reagan was a strong leader who gave people hope and confidence. That confidence carried over to the economy.

I also think Reagan's tax cuts and trickle-down economics worked at that point in time.

Reagan had a lot to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union. I believe he deliberately lured them into an arms race, knowing that it would bankrupt their economy (which was based on untenable principles).

He was a great president. Just contrast America and the world in 1980 when he took office with 1988, when he left office. Big difference.

Exactly. These are similar reasons why i put FDR on my list. FDR may have created all those entitlement programs that still linger today, but he was a charismatic leader that revived the country's pride at a time when it truly was "depressed." He didn't want to goto war but understood that war would eventually come to us if we stood idly by any longer. He was an influential leader at a time in our History when we needed one.

[Insein]

My reason for making this post was because that so called list didn't even put Washington in the top 5. I think Washington is the best president this country ever had by virtue of his leadership at the begining and his giving the power back when he could have just stayed president till he died.

[GW in Ohio]

My reason for making this post was because that so called list didn't even put Washington in the top 5. I think Washington is the best president this country ever had by virtue of his leadership at the begining and his giving the power back when he could have just stayed president till he died.

At a time when the infant republic was threatened by the French, the Spanish, and the British, Washington provided strong, clear-eyed leadership.

Everything he did set a precedent.

One wrong move on Wshington's part and we could have been a colony of France, or Spain. England was waiting to pounce, also.

It was a defining moment in the history of our country when Washington declined the crown and affirmed the United States to be a republic.

[glockmail]

Exactly. These are similar reasons why i put FDR on my list. FDR may have created all those entitlement programs that still linger today, but he was a charismatic leader that revived the country's pride at a time when it truly was "depressed." He didn't want to goto war but understood that war would eventually come to us if we stood idly by any longer. He was an influential leader at a time in our History when we needed one.

FDR caused the depression to go own far longer than it would have if the free market system was allowed to recover on its own. Sure he led us out, but he also led us in. Plus, its entirely possible that Hitler would not have risen to power if the world economy was not in shambles for such a long time.

[LiberalNation]

Reaganomics was one of the worst lagacies of the reagans years I'd say. He sunk Bush 1 with it's fall out aka a bad economy. Bush 1 wasn't a bad leader himself.

[Insein]

FDR caused the depression to go own far longer than it would have if the free market system was allowed to recover on its own. Sure he led us out, but he also led us in. Plus, its entirely possible that Hitler would not have risen to power if the world economy was not in shambles for such a long time.

I disagree. The country had been in a recession for many years before FDR came to office. Something had to be done just to symbolize to the nation that something was being done. Eventually yes, Free Market would have recovered the economy but the psyche of the nation was so shattered that something proactive needed to be done. Sure we are still dealing with Social Security and other programs that were SUPPOSED TO BE temporary today but he helped restore American Pride.

[glockmail]

I disagree. The country had been in a recession for many years before FDR came to office. Something had to be done just to symbolize to the nation that something was being done. Eventually yes, Free Market would have recovered the economy but the psyche of the nation was so shattered that something proactive needed to be done. Sure we are still dealing with Social Security and other programs that were SUPPOSED TO BE temporary today but he helped restore American Pride. Those are good points, all valid. But I think he did more to secure long-term power for Democrats than he did for the American people at large.

[glockmail]

Reaganomics was one of the worst lagacies of the reagans years I'd say. He sunk Bush 1 with it's fall out aka a bad economy. Bush 1 wasn't a bad leader himself.

I don't want to harp on your age but you're not old enogh to remeber what t was like back then. I was working my way through college during the Carter years and inflation was so bad when you got your paycheck you went straight to the store and bought what you'd think you need for the next two weeks, because in two more weeks everything would be that much more expensive. Jobs were also very difficult to come by and the only reason why I had one was that I was willing to work for peanuts (pun intended) and twice as hard as the next guy.

Reagan had to take some harsh measures to get us back on track but once his tax cuts and degregulation took effect it resulted in the largest, longest economic boom in US history. Thank God for that man, as he was truly a visionary and one of the greats.

[LiberalNation]

No I wasn't around but that is how I learned it. Reagans boom and policies ended up failing in the end. Even if they helped in the short term. Carter also was a pretty bad president.

[glockmail]

No I wasn't around but that is how I learned it. Reagans boom and policies ended up failing in the end. Even if they helped in the short term. Carter also was a pretty bad president. You call 20 years of economic boom failure? Reagan's boom lasted until the end of Clinton's years, until BillBob raised taxes. The Bush 43 cut 'em back, and the boom continues.

[LiberalNation]

The economy was not booming during Bush 1s term. It's one of the main reason he didn't win re-election.

[gabosaurus]

Reagan was an equal player in the Middle East. He did the arms for hostages deal with Iran without telling anyone. In 1983, Reagan dispatched Donald Rumsfeld to Iraq to meet with Saddam. The U.S. support Iraq in its war with Iran through covert military and economic support.The Reagan administration had full knowledge of Saddam's domestic human rights abuses, but ignored them.
These moved emboldened the Tehran hardline government. It also allowed Iraq to legally buy armaments and material such as poison gas from U.S. manufacturers. The gas that Saddam used to massacre the Kurds was bought from Dow Chemical.
Reagan also greatly increased the national debt through irresponsible tax cuts coupled with increased military spending. In just eight years, Reagan's actions increased the national debt from $1 trillion to about $3.5 trillion.

[glockmail]

The economy was not booming during Bush 1s term. It's one of the main reason he didn't win re-election.Yes you are correct. I believe it slowed because many thought, myself included, that Bush 41 was Reagan's Quayle, and we lacked the confidence in him to invest. What really sunk him was raising taxes, his "New World Order" gaffe, and his lack of confidence in the basic tenets of conservatism. Bush 41 was not a true believer like Reagan.

In contrast, Clinton was smart enough not to mess around with the Reagan economy. He kept Greenspan and did what he was told to do. After about year 6(?), he too raised taxes, causing the slump that Bush 43 inherited.

[glockmail]

Reagan was an equal player in the Middle East. He did the arms for hostages deal with Iran without telling anyone. In 1983, Reagan dispatched Donald Rumsfeld to Iraq to meet with Saddam. The U.S. support Iraq in its war with Iran through covert military and economic support.The Reagan administration had full knowledge of Saddam's domestic human rights abuses, but ignored them.
These moved emboldened the Tehran hardline government. It also allowed Iraq to legally buy armaments and material such as poison gas from U.S. manufacturers. The gas that Saddam used to massacre the Kurds was bought from Dow Chemical.
Reagan also greatly increased the national debt through irresponsible tax cuts coupled with increased military spending. In just eight years, Reagan's actions increased the national debt from $1 trillion to about $3.5 trillion. 1. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. This is a fact of foreign policy wheter you like it or not. Always has been, always will.
2. Tax cuts are never irresponsible. In fact they raised revenues by jump-starting the economy. What is irresponsible is the Damnocrat Congress out-spending revenues. In case you didn't realize: Congress controlls the purse strings.:slap:

[Gunny]

Certainly you can't be serious about Reagan. Have you forgot Iran Contra and arms for hostages? How about Reaganomics and his meddling in Central and South America?
Though I will give Reagan credit for being America's first vegetable president.

:lame2:

[Gunny]

If you didn't notice that Reagan was a horrible leader, you weren't paying attention. His "Cowboy Ronnie" approach to foreign policy was disgraceful.
The more I read about Reagan, the more I am convinced that he was an idiot.

You weren't even around, so WTF do YOU know other than your Berkeley instilled liberal horseshit? Or the revisionsit liberal history it's taught you?

Not a damned thing. Same knowledge you possess on ALL matters political.

If ever there was an argument for court-ordered labotomy, you're it.

[Psychoblues]

C'mon guys, knock it off.

This may come as a tremendous surprise to many of you but my list looks amazingly like the first list.

1. G. Washington, for reasons already stated
2. A. Lincoln, for reasons already stated
3. T. Roosevelt, for reasons already stated
4. F. Roosevelt, for reasons already stated
5. 3 way tie between D. Eisenhower, R. Nixon and R. Reagan
All have their individual attributes and distractions but each had tremendous effects on the way American now live and understand the world and history.

[musicman]

[Reagan...did the arms for hostages deal with Iran without telling anyone.]

It is as obvious as it is tragic that this is the extent of your knowledge on the topic of Iran-Contra. Not that that's surprising - you've demonstrated that your grasp of a myriad of subjects is precisely what our liberal culture would have you know. In traditional (which is to say, liberal) media and education circles, there's just not a lot of complete, in-depth analysis of Iran-Contra to be had. Your mentors are content to have you speak in hushed - but non-specific - tones, of some boogey-man scandal which proves that Reagan was the Antichrist.

Doesn't this fact, alone, spark your curiosity a little? Hasn't it ever occurred to you - while you're revelling in your saintly rebellion against the establishment - that you might be mis-identifying who the establishment ARE?

It IS fun - and noble - to rebel against the establishment. I've been doing it for years, and I recommend it highly. Really piss 'em off - educate yourself on the topic of Iran-Contra. It's fascinating stuff! There's a reason that the liberal establishment don't like to go into a lot of detail on the subject: they come out of it looking like the shitty little traitors they are.

[Psychoblues]

Sorry Charlie (musicman, hah) but you need to get your facts together.



It is as obvious as it is tragic that this is the extent of your knowledge on the topic of Iran-Contra. Not that that's surprising - you've demonstrated that your grasp of a myriad of subjects is precisely what our liberal culture would have you know. In traditional (which is to say, liberal) media and education circles, there's just not a lot of complete, in-depth analysis of Iran-Contra to be had. Your mentors are content to have you speak in hushed - but non-specific - tones, of some boogey-man scandal which proves that Reagan was the Antichrist.

Doesn't this fact, alone, spark your curiosity a little? Hasn't it ever occurred to you - while you're revelling in your saintly rebellion against the establishment - that you might be mis-identifying who the establishment ARE?

It IS fun - and noble - to rebel against the establishment. I've been doing it for years, and I recommend it highly. Really piss 'em off - educate yourself on the topic of Iran-Contra. It's fascinating stuff! There's a reason that the liberal establishment don't like to go into a lot of detail on the subject: they come out of it looking like the shitty little traitors they are.

Get back on topic or did you not understand the original question?

[musicman]

Sorry Charlie (musicman, hah) but you need to get your facts together.

Wow, Psychoblues - that was devastating! I guess you told me a thing or two...


Get back on topic or did you not understand the original question?

Psychoblues - Thread Police??!! Did I miss a memo or something?

[musicman]

Psychoblues;

Here's a hint: In order for your neg rep to have any effect, you must first accumulate some rep power. Otherwise, you're just whackin' off.

[Psychoblues]

Just "who" is whacking off? You get off topic, attack another poster and accuse me of "whacking off". Excuse me, little cowboy, but you have a lot to learn.


Psychoblues;

Here's a hint: In order for your neg rep to have any effect, you must first accumulate some rep power. Otherwise, you're just whackin' off.

I felt that your post was unhelpful to the subject at hand. In other words "I disapprove". Plain enough for you?

[musicman]

Just "who" is whacking off? You get off topic, attack another poster and accuse me of "whacking off". Excuse me, little cowboy, but you have a lot to learn.



I felt that your post was unhelpful to the subject at hand. In other words "I disapprove". Plain enough for you?

Don't even talk to me until you've apologized to Stephanie.

[Psychoblues]

You screw her. I don't want to.



Don't even talk to me until you've apologized to Stephanie.

staphy doesn't apologize and in her case neither do I.

[GW in Ohio]

C'mon guys, knock it off.

This may come as a tremendous surprise to many of you but my list looks amazingly like the first list.

1. G. Washington, for reasons already stated
2. A. Lincoln, for reasons already stated
3. T. Roosevelt, for reasons already stated
4. F. Roosevelt, for reasons already stated
5. 3 way tie between D. Eisenhower, R. Nixon and R. Reagan
All have their individual attributes and distractions but each had tremendous effects on the way American now live and understand the world and history.

Eisenhower was a good president; he wasn't a great president. Unless you define greatness as knowing how to leave things alone.

But Nixon was not one of the great presidents. He wasn't even a good president. Whatever good things he accomplished in office were way overshadowed by the nightmare of Watergate. Nixon had too many personal demons and too many flaws (paranoia being the most prominent) to be an efective president. You cannot be an effective president if you are crippled by paranoia, fear and suspicion. (Remember Nixon's Enemies List?)

Contrast Nixon with Reagan. They both knew the liberal elements in the press were out to get them. But that knowledge caused Nixon to retreat within himself and do stupid things (like Watergate). But Reagan went out to meet the press on their own terms. Whereas Nixon was constantly dodging and deflecting when dealing with the press, Reagan saw every encounter with the press as an opportunity to communicate his goals and his visions.

[gabosaurus]

Reagan saw every encounter with the press as an opportunity to get the American people to believe his lies and subterfuge.
That is why Reagan will go down as a much better president than Dubya. Reagan embraced the press. They were his method of fooling the people. Dubya dislikes the press because he doesn't want to be questioned.
I give Reagan credit for being a very shrewd and intelligent person. As opposed to Dubya, who is a total dumbass.

[Insein]

Reagan saw every encounter with the press as an opportunity to get the American people to believe his lies and subterfuge.
That is why Reagan will go down as a much better president than Dubya. Reagan embraced the press. They were his method of fooling the people. Dubya dislikes the press because he doesn't want to be questioned.
I give Reagan credit for being a very shrewd and intelligent person. As opposed to Dubya, who is a total dumbass.

Thats very magnanimous of you for giving Reagan credit. :lame2: I'm sure his family will truly sleep better at night now.

Why don't you go back to your study hall and boy gabbing while the adults discuss the real issues. I'm sure you can catch up on the talking points monday when you talk to your brilliant professor with his/her "unbiased facts" of the world. Just the kind of intelligence I'd expect from a "grad student."

[manu1959]

Reagan saw every encounter with the press as an opportunity to get the American people to believe his lies and subterfuge.
That is why Reagan will go down as a much better president than Dubya. Reagan embraced the press. They were his method of fooling the people. Dubya dislikes the press because he doesn't want to be questioned.
I give Reagan credit for being a very shrewd and intelligent person. As opposed to Dubya, who is a total dumbass.

he is president .... you are .... well you :laugh2:

[Gunny]

Wow, Psychoblues - that was devastating! I guess you told me a thing or two...



Psychoblues - Thread Police??!! Did I miss a memo or something?

This is freakin' hillarious. Psycho telling someone to stay on topic. :lol:

[Gunny]

Psychoblues;

Here's a hint: In order for your neg rep to have any effect, you must first accumulate some rep power. Otherwise, you're just whackin' off.

Sssshhhh ....... (he thinks he's making a difference):laugh2:

[Psychoblues]

Eisenhower got the funding, support of the nation and began the building of the national interstate system. Absolutely revolutionary in that the system has saved billions of dollars and gallons of fuel and billions of hours of transportation time for the citizens of the United States of America!!!

Eisenhower oversaw the reconstruction of Europe and Japan and the positive results are self evident.

Eisenhower began recial desegregation in the military in WWII and completed it during the Korean Conflict. He also began desegregation of Southern schools starting in Little Rock, Arkansas which by itself began an earnest fight for genuine civil rights nationwide.

Eisenhower was probably the finest General that ever commanded a multinational armed force. I could go on and on about Eisenhower, but just the aforementioned facts are enough to include him towards the top in discussions about the "Greatest Presidents".

I agree that in many ways Nixon was not very "Great." But, from my point of view, as he was the first president that I ever voted for (in 1968 and again in 1972), he stuck to his promises, got us out of Viet Nam with as much respect as could be garnered at the time and saved thousands of American lives and billions of US dollars by having done so.

Nixon also oversaw the completion and passing of OSHA, EPA and hundreds of other smaller and less known pieces of legislation that have worked well for the safety, health, welfare and benefits of American workers and their families and the general environmental health of the United States of America.

Reagan, well, Reagan was just Reagan. Reagan made America feel good about America again (re: Post Viet Nam). Reagan was probably the greatest communicator in the history of the United States of American Presidencies. Reagan certainly understood and worked steadfastedly to end the Cold War and we all see how that was completed.



Eisenhower was a good president; he wasn't a great president. Unless you define greatness as knowing how to leave things alone.

But Nixon was not one of the great presidents. He wasn't even a good president. Whatever good things he accomplished in office were way overshadowed by the nightmare of Watergate. Nixon had too many personal demons and too many flaws (paranoia being the most prominent) to be an efective president. You cannot be an effective president if you are crippled by paranoia, fear and suspicion. (Remember Nixon's Enemies List?)

Contrast Nixon with Reagan. They both knew the liberal elements in the press were out to get them. But that knowledge caused Nixon to retreat within himself and do stupid things (like Watergate). But Reagan went out to meet the press on their own terms. Whereas Nixon was constantly dodging and deflecting when dealing with the press, Reagan saw every encounter with the press as an opportunity to communicate his goals and his visions.

We can debate until the cows come home about the attributes and distractions of ALL presidents. But, when it comes to recognizing the "Greatest" among them I think it is fairly clear even in this very short poll and discussion that many Americans share beliefs in the few that have so far been mentioned.

[Hobbit]

Eisenhower got the funding, support of the nation and began the building of the national interstate system. Absolutely revolutionary in that the system has saved billions of dollars and gallons of fuel and billions of hours of transportation time for the citizens of the United States of America!!!

True, I'll give him that one, but I don't think that puts him in the top five.


Eisenhower oversaw the reconstruction of Europe and Japan and the positive results are self evident.

He just approved it. The credit here goes to George C. Marshall, the only general to ever recieve a Nobel Peace Prize (back when it meant what it said). I'll give Ike some credit for this, but not that much.


Eisenhower began recial desegregation in the military in WWII and completed it during the Korean Conflict. He also began desegregation of Southern schools starting in Little Rock, Arkansas which by itself began an earnest fight for genuine civil rights nationwide.

Truman desegregated the troops and Little Rock Central was not the first desegregated school, though it was one of the most highly publicized and poorly handled desegregations ever. The only real heroes here are the 101st Airborne and the students who went through it. It is also worth mentioning that school desegregation was mandated by the Supreme Court, not the President.


Eisenhower was probably the finest General that ever commanded a multinational armed force. I could go on and on about Eisenhower, but just the aforementioned facts are enough to include him towards the top in discussions about the "Greatest Presidents".

Several generals in the Revolutionary war commanded joint Colonial/French operations. Eisenhower wasn't even the first general of that war to command multinational armed forces, as the Britsh defense consisted of dozens of nations. Eisenhower was, indeed, a good general with a huge job to do, but he wasn't the only one. MacArthur was also there, as were people like Patton, Nimitz, and several other generals and admirals who deserve to get some credit there. Also, I thought this was to discuss his merits as a President, not as a general, a job at which he excelled and deserves a seat of honor amongst the truly great ones.

Don't get me wrong, Ike was good. I just think you're giving him a bit too much credit.

[Psychoblues]

Like I said, we can debate until our deaths (or more exactly as I said "until the cows come home") about any single issue about any single president. I try my very best at least to examine the width, breadth and depth of the presidencies being discussed and for minimal purposes being voted upon in this discussion.


True, I'll give him that one, but I don't think that puts him in the top five.
He just approved it. The credit here goes to George C. Marshall, the only general to ever recieve a Nobel Peace Prize (back when it meant what it said). I'll give Ike some credit for this, but not that much.
Truman desegregated the troops and Little Rock Central was not the first desegregated school, though it was one of the most highly publicized and poorly handled desegregations ever. The only real heroes here are the 101st Airborne and the students who went through it. It is also worth mentioning that school desegregation was mandated by the Supreme Court, not the President.
Several generals in the Revolutionary war commanded joint Colonial/French operations. Eisenhower wasn't even the first general of that war to command multinational armed forces, as the Britsh defense consisted of dozens of nations. Eisenhower was, indeed, a good general with a huge job to do, but he wasn't the only one. MacArthur was also there, as were people like Patton, Nimitz, and several other generals and admirals who deserve to get some credit there. Also, I thought this was to discuss his merits as a President, not as a general, a job at which he excelled and deserves a seat of honor amongst the truly great ones.
Don't get me wrong, Ike was good. I just think you're giving him a bit too much credit.

Ike is the first president that I can remember from my childhood. I was too young to remember Truman but I can still remember how my parents respected him as well as IKE. My parents taught me to be non-partisan as opposed to bi-partisan. I've since had to change my attitude about that.

[gabosaurus]

Psychoblues, you need to stop trying to reason with Hobbit. It's like trying to sweep a possum out of your house with a worn out broom.

[Hobbit]

Psychoblues, you need to stop trying to reason with Hobbit. It's like trying to sweep a possum out of your house with a worn out broom.

I don't remember the part where any of us was speaking to you. Now get back under your bridge.

[Psychoblues]

gabosaurus, you are mistaken. I have been around this board and it's predesessor (I misspelled that, didn't I?) for a very long time. I don't try to reason with anyone that demostrates unreasonabilities. I do, however, occasionally state my case and hope for the best.


Psychoblues, you need to stop trying to reason with Hobbit. It's like trying to sweep a possum out of your house with a worn out broom.

As you already know, the dialogue is many times quite dispicable in this place as well as others. It is now my objective to do what I can to raise the level a notch or two on the intellectual and responsible side of reasonability. I think this is what the owner of this most excellent board would prefer as well.

I don't mean that we can't get down, dirty and even insulting from time to time (Hellfire, my friend, sometimes the subject or the conversation dictates it), I just mean that as we learn to communicate on a higher level that our common (and righties and lefties do have very common interests) objectives can be more accurately pinpointed and just possibly we as a group can make a difference in how our legislators behave in the great halls of our Congress.

I know, I know. Lofty thoughts. But flying airplanes was once a lofty thought. Powered transportation was once a lofty thought. Harnessing the power of electricity and getting to the moon were lofty thoughts. But, as much as I really love the battle and the bullshit, I have to admit that
I prefer a more civil and productive conversation. Admittedly some are simply incapable of civility but that is no excuse for you or me to be so. Don't you think?

You are on my side, gabby, and the Psycho is on yours. Can we try and accomplish something here, together?

[Insein]

gabosaurus, you are mistaken. I have been around this board and it's predesessor (I misspelled that, didn't I?) for a very long time. I don't try to reason with anyone that demostrates unreasonabilities. I do, however, occasionally state my case and hope for the best.



As you already know, the dialogue is many times quite dispicable in this place as well as others. It is now my objective to do what I can to raise the level a notch or two on the intellectual and responsible side of reasonability. I think this is what the owner of this most excellent board would prefer as well.

I don't mean that we can't get down, dirty and even insulting from time to time (Hellfire, my friend, sometimes the subject or the conversation dictates it), I just mean that as we learn to communicate on a higher level that our common (and righties and lefties do have very common interests) objectives can be more accurately pinpointed and just possibly we as a group can make a difference in how our legislators behave in the great halls of our Congress.

I know, I know. Lofty thoughts. But flying airplanes was once a lofty thought. Powered transportation was once a lofty thought. Harnessing the power of electricity and getting to the moon were lofty thoughts. But, as much as I really love the battle and the bullshit, I have to admit that
I prefer a more civil and productive conversation. Admittedly some are simply incapable of civility but that is no excuse for you or me to be so. Don't you think?

You are on my side, gabby, and the Psycho is on yours. Can we try and accomplish something here, together?


I think this is the first thread I've seen you have a reasonable argument in on both boards. No name calling. No trolling. Just stating your opinion and then supporting it with facts. Maybe this will catch on for you.

[Psychoblues]

Actually, I have said pretty much the same on several occasions on at least the other board. Maybe you just didn't notice?



I think this is the first thread I've seen you have a reasonable argument in on both boards. No name calling. No trolling. Just stating your opinion and then supporting it with facts. Maybe this will catch on for you.

That aside, I do think the level of conversation can only profit from genuine and non-insulting dialogue and otherwise fact sharing and opposing conversation. Don't you?

Who are you going to believe? Me or your lying eyes?

[Gunny]

Eisenhower got the funding, support of the nation and began the building of the national interstate system. Absolutely revolutionary in that the system has saved billions of dollars and gallons of fuel and billions of hours of transportation time for the citizens of the United States of America!!!



Eisenhower started construction of the interstate system to ensure rapid transportation of military manpower and materiel from coast to coast. Saving time and money for the citizens of the US was not a factor in the decision; rather, an after-the-fact bennie.

[gabosaurus]

The latter half of the 20th century up to the current time have not been the best for the American presidency. Look at the horrible leaders we have suffered through -- Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Clinton and the two Bushes. Not a decent president among them.

[Psychoblues]

God,,,,Damn?!??!? I knew there was someting shallow and non forward thinking about that son of a bitch!!!!!



Eisenhower started construction of the interstate system to ensure rapid transportation of military manpower and materiel from coast to coast. Saving time and money for the citizens of the US was not a factor in the decision; rather, an after-the-fact bennie.

There goes all I ever admired about IKE I guess. NOT!!!!!!!!!

[Gunny]

The latter half of the 20th century up to the current time have not been the best for the American presidency. Look at the horrible leaders we have suffered through -- Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Clinton and the two Bushes. Not a decent president among them.

Johnson was a good President. Unfortunately, his strides in Civil Rights are overshadowed by Vietnam.

Reagan was an awesome President and only you left-wingnuts think otherwise.

Given the fact the President Bush has had to deal with Islamic terrorism and domestic liberal terrorism at the same time, and managed to stave off the recession Clinton had us rolling into, I'd say he's done a much better than average job as President. Dealing with you left-wingnut goofballs is a 24-7 distraction to accomplishing anythign worthwile all by itself.

[Insein]

GWB will be viewed by History as one of the better presidents because of all that he had to endure. What will keep him from a legacy will be his unwillingness to control the border.

[Gunny]

God,,,,Damn?!??!? I knew there was someting shallow and non forward thinking about that son of a bitch!!!!!




There goes all I ever admired about IKE I guess. NOT!!!!!!!!!

You actually made some valid points about Eisenhower which would make him worthy of consideration. Are you feeling okay today?

I merely corrected the one you got wrong.

[Gunny]

GWB will be viewed by History as one of the better presidents because of all that he had to endure. What will keep him from a legacy will be his unwillingness to control the border.

I only doubt it because libs appear to be in charge of revising history nowadays.

[Insein]

I only doubt it because libs appear to be in charge of revising history nowadays.

IF that were the case, Abe Lincoln would be mankinds worst criminal. He'd be higher on the list than Hitler and Stalin. Lincoln's legacy remains despite him being the most hated president of all time during his presidency.

[SassyLady]

The more I read about Reagan, the more I am convinced that he was an idiot.

How succinct of you Gab..........cause I was just thinkin to myself.....

the more I read Gabby's stuff the more I am convinced that s/he is an idiot.

[stephanie]

How succinct of you Gab..........cause I was just thinkin to myself.....

the more I read Gabby's stuff the more I am convinced that s/he is an idiot.

Naa.......She's just way SMARTER than the rest of us.......You'll see...;)

[stephanie]

The latter half of the 20th century up to the current time have not been the best for the American presidency. Look at the horrible leaders we have suffered through -- Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Clinton and the two Bushes. Not a decent president among them.

I voted in all of these elections......

How many of these Presidential elections......... have you voted in.....???

[GW in Ohio]

I only doubt it because libs appear to be in charge of revising history nowadays.

Let's stop whining about Bush's place in history, kids.

Bush's legacy as one of the 3 worst presidents in our history, and his legacy as the stupidest sumbitch to ever sit in the office will stand on their own merits. The "liberal revisionists" that you're so afraid of will not be a factor.

[musicman]

Let's stop whining about Bush's place in history, kids.

Bush's legacy as one of the 3 worst presidents in our history, and his legacy as the stupidest sumbitch to ever sit in the office will stand on their own merits. The "liberal revisionists" that you're so afraid of will not be a factor.

He's not even one of the three worst in the last 31 years - and I'm no fan of George Bush.

[musicman]

I'm going to amend that to 50 years. Sorry - my math mistake.

[Psychoblues]

I'm feelin' GREAT today, gunny, how 'bout you?


You actually made some valid points about Eisenhower which would make him worthy of consideration. Are you feeling okay today?
I merely corrected the one you got wrong.

I was just' havin' a 'lil fun with you but I guess it went over your head. Mail runnin' slow on your prescriptions again?

Although I am an admitted liberal at this stage in my life I have not always been so. Even considering that, I am not the kind of liberal that is often stereotyped on these boards. I am, quite frankly, a moderate/conservative liberal or more accurately a populist/progressive in the direction of Teddy Roosevelt politics. All these fuckin' labels drive me nuts or should I say nuttier? Do they have that effect on you?

Have a good day, gunny, and I'll catch you on the upbeat!!!!!!!!