Are we born "that" way

[Yurt]

the majority of the gay threads end up with one side saying...they are born that way, it is biological, natural...the other side saying, no, it is a choice. the side for natural points to animals as examples. the side for no says animals are animals and not human.

so, are we born "that" way:

murder
rape
lying
cheating
honesty
mischief
reproduction
anal sex
and on and on

how is it that people who believe in evolution believe that homosexuality is an end game (pun intended), that is, there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, it is a choice, our "right" if you will. what about murder and the rest of the list...feel free to include more.

my opinion is, we are born with certain hereditary traits genetically. whether these traits transform our mind, i am unsure. i am unsure because are the traits automatically in our mind or transform our mind, that being, do we not still have choice. is somehow being born with a liking to anal sex, also a genetic inability to be born with choice, that is, not to have anal sex?

if you choose a gay lifestyle, that is your choice. my opinions are known on the government marriage issue.

mods, if you want to move this, ok, just did not know where to put it.

[hjmick]

Now you see, with your list, as with homosexuality, I think both arguments apply, natural or choice. I think there are some people who are psychologically or biologically predisposed to certain behaviors while there are some who choose to behave a certain way. While I can't say that homosexuality is natural as it seemingly goes against nature in that all we are meant to propagate the species, as are all creatures, I do believe that most homosexuals are naturally so.

[Missileman]

the majority of the gay threads end up with one side saying...they are born that way, it is biological, natural...the other side saying, no, it is a choice. the side for natural points to animals as examples. the side for no says animals are animals and not human.

so, are we born "that" way:

murder
rape
lying
cheating
honesty
mischief
reproduction
anal sex
and on and on

how is it that people who believe in evolution believe that homosexuality is an end game (pun intended), that is, there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, it is a choice, our "right" if you will. what about murder and the rest of the list...feel free to include more.

my opinion is, we are born with certain hereditary traits genetically. whether these traits transform our mind, i am sure. i am unsure because if the traits form the in our mind or transform our mind, do we not still have choice. is somehow being born with a liking to anal sex, also a genetic inability to be born with choice, that is, not to have anal sex?

if you choose a gay lifestyle, that is your choice. my opinions are known on the government marriage issue.

mods, if you want to move this, ok, just did not know where to put it.

The premise of your question is flawed. I don't think your going to find anyone who will argue that heterosexuality is anything other than an innate quality in heterosexuals. Heterosexuality isn't judged morally. The people who practice it are, based on the circumstances of the sex, i.e. underage, unwed, etc.

Why should someone have to choose to deny their nature (if they are born that way, as I believe they are, then by definition it is their nature) if they can find willing adults who want the same thing?

Why not judge the individuals who practice homosexuality based on the circumstances of the sex and deem it moral if it is within a committed, monogamous relationship?

[manu1959]

The premise of your question is flawed. I don't think your going to find anyone who will argue that heterosexuality is anything other than an innate quality in heterosexuals. Heterosexuality isn't judged morally. The people who practice it are, based on the circumstances of the sex, i.e. underage, unwed, etc.

Why should someone have to choose to deny their nature (if they are born that way, as I believe they are, then by definition it is their nature) if they can find willing adults who want the same thing?

Why not judge the individuals who practice homosexuality based on the circumstances of the sex and deem it moral if it is within a committed, monogamous relationship?

why does it have to be committed and monogamous....hell why does it have to be moral?

[Missileman]

why does it have to be committed and monogamous....hell why does it have to be moral?

That is the moral standard for heterosexual sex...it's seems reasonable to apply the same standard.

[gabosaurus]

All of Yurt's listed traits are developed. I can't think of any genetic traits that would lead to criminal activity. Though medical research is still open to the idea.

Too many DP posters are hung up on the moral/Biblical implications of homosexuality. You totally ignore the genetic research of such.
Up until 40 years or so ago, it was thought that being left-handed was a "learned" aberration. Parents and teachers alike tried to force left-handed people to function with their right hands.
What about genetic birth diseases? Shouldn't these people come out of the closet and stop wasting our time?

No one is ever "converted" to homosexuality. Nor are they "cured." They might pretend to be. Or proclaim so for social and moral reasons.
Look at people like Larry Craig. Dude has obviously been in the closet for a very long time. Even adapted a very anti-gay stance to cover his tracks.
There are numerous past closet gays who have married and produced children. Some of the most macho icons of Hollywood have turned out to be gay.

It's a genetic trait. Just like gender, skin color, hair color, health traits, etc.
You can only bury yourself in religious fervor so deep.

[Gaffer]

I believe in evolution and I believe homos are unnatural. Sex is 99% mental. Sex among animals is instinctual. Only humans are able to think about it and make it normal or deviant. Animals are not capable of lust, that is a purely human trait.

[Yurt]

Now you see, with your list, as with homosexuality, I think both arguments apply, natural or choice. I think there are some people who are psychologically or biologically predisposed to certain behaviors while there are some who choose to behave a certain way. While I can't say that homosexuality is natural as it seemingly goes against nature in that all we are meant to propagate the species, as are all creatures, I do believe that most homosexuals are naturally so.

you sound like a politician. :coffee:

you - can't say, -but- you believe... that homosexuality is natural. interesting, possibly a true statement. we are not "god" or "gods"..... so we cannot say what is or is not nature? is this what you are saying?

is there a way of knowing, e.g., from the bible and/or another source? some say the bible answers all, others say it is hogwash, harry potter....

[hjmick]

You thought I sounded like a politician before...

What I mean to say is, while the act of homosexuality is in and of itself unnatural, as it does not lend itself to the continuation of the species, which seems to be one of the base functions of all animals, I do believe that the majority of those who identify themselves as homosexual find it to be natural rather than a choice. At the same time, I also believe that there are some in society who choose the lifestyle. A rudimentary but crude example would prison. Everyone is aware that previously heterosexual men who find themselves incarcerated for a long period of time often choose to find sexual pleasure with each other.

Of course you also have the "nurture" argument...

As for the biblical aspects of the argument, as I am not a religious man,I shall refrain from that part of the discussion. I bear no one any ill will in regards to their beliefs and I respect their right to worship.


Vote for ME!

[Missileman]

I believe in evolution and I believe homos are unnatural. Sex is 99% mental. Sex among animals is instinctual. Only humans are able to think about it and make it normal or deviant. Animals are not capable of lust, that is a purely human trait.

Are you saying that you believe it impossible for heterosexuals to give birth to homosexuals because of heredity?

[Mr. P]

Sorry Yurt :lame2: Thread.

[Yurt]

gabosaurus;264778]All of Yurt's listed traits are developed. I can't think of any genetic traits that would lead to criminal activity. Though medical research is still open to the idea.

really, do you have a link or is that your opinion?


Too many DP posters are hung up on the moral/Biblical implications of homosexuality. You totally ignore the genetic research of such.

stupid statement given this thread. way to win friends and influence people gabs.


Up until 40 years or so ago, it was thought that being left-handed was a "learned" aberration. Parents and teachers alike tried to force left-handed people to function with their right hands.
What about genetic birth diseases? Shouldn't these people come out of the closet and stop wasting our time?

fair enough. so because ONE thing was wrong, all other things MUST be wrong... is that right?



No one is ever "converted" to homosexuality. Nor are they "cured." They might pretend to be. Or proclaim so for social and moral reasons.

pure opinion, nothing more. that is like saying no one is cured from wanting to have sex with a 13 year old, or maybe 9 year old. oh wait, you do support that? so, do you support having 9-13 having sex? are you saying that to not want that is not natural.... would love to see your science on tthat....



Look at people like Larry Craig. Dude has obviously been in the closet for a very long time. Even adapted a very anti-gay stance to cover his tracks.
There are numerous past closet gays who have married and produced children. Some of the most macho icons of Hollywood have turned out to be gay.

so fucking what... tell us exactly how those stats disprove the above. you can't. i don't care if guys live in the closet or beat macho dicks, gabs, your point is that it is natural.


It's a genetic trait. Just like gender, skin color, hair color, health traits, etc.
You can only bury yourself in religious fervor so deep.

right, let all child molesters free, its just a trait....

[glockmail]

Evolutionary speaking, it is impossible to be born gay, unless it is an abboration, and in that case, should not be encouraged.

[avatar4321]

I have always thought the natural/unnatural argument is a red hering.

Being natural doesnt mean it's good. There are lots of natural activities that are not good. Lying, cheating, violence, intolerance, hatred, laziness, etc are all natural. That doesnt mean they are good. It doesnt excuse people who act like that.

What makes human beings amazing is the fact that we can change our nature. This is especially applicable to Christianity which is centered around an Atonement and empowerment to change human nature and be born again.

If we buy the argument that we can't oppose homosexuality because it's natural, then using that same argument they cant be upset when people are intolerant, angry, and violent towards homosexuals because all of those reactions are likewise natural. (I might even argue more natural). Is that really what you want to be arguing?

[darin]

I have always thought the natural/unnatural argument is a red hering.

Being natural doesnt mean it's good. There are lots of natural activities that are not good. Lying, cheating, violence, intolerance, hatred, laziness, etc are all natural. That doesnt mean they are good. It doesnt excuse people who act like that.

What makes human beings amazing is the fact that we can change our nature. This is especially applicable to Christianity which is centered around an Atonement and empowerment to change human nature and be born again.

If we buy the argument that we can't oppose homosexuality because it's natural, then using that same argument they cant be upset when people are intolerant, angry, and violent towards homosexuals because all of those reactions are likewise natural. (I might even argue more natural). Is that really what you want to be arguing?

http://www.d-mphotos.com/images/applause.gif

[midcan5]

How would you classify psychosis, depression, schizophrenia, Alzheimers, would you consider them nature or nurture? Like gay they are part of the person's biology. The items you mention are behaviors, the cause of each simple or complex but not a core piece of a person nor something that needs to happen.

I know many married people who don't want children, so claiming that as the natural outcome of marriage is wrong. Marriage is just a social institution founded to keep order in a new social order that differed from the more primitive alpha male model.

[glockmail]

How would you classify psychosis, depression, schizophrenia, Alzheimers, would you consider them nature or nurture? Like gay they are part of the person's biology.....I don't see organized groups encouraging those other types of defects.

[Missileman]

Being natural doesnt mean it's good. There are lots of natural activities that are not good. Lying, cheating, violence, intolerance, hatred, laziness, etc are all natural.

Sorry, but what you listed are all LEARNED BEHAVIORS and aren't comparable to an innate quality like sexual orientation.

[avatar4321]

Sorry, but what you listed are all LEARNED BEHAVIORS and aren't comparable to an innate quality like sexual orientation.

You have to learn to be violent? You have to learn to be intolerant? You have to learn to lie? You have to learn to hate? Are you serious? These are all natural and for very specific reasons as well: Defense.

However, I would argue that sexual preference is much more learned than any of those. Little children are violent naturally until they are taught otherwise. Sexuality, however, isnt taught till a much later age.... atleast if you dont have liberals trying to indoctrinate 5 year olds.

[Missileman]

You have to learn to be violent? You have to learn to be intolerant? You have to learn to lie? You have to learn to hate? Are you serious? These are all natural and for very specific reasons as well: Defense.

You're way off base...those are all learned.


However, I would argue that sexual preference is much more learned than any of those. Little children are violent naturally until they are taught otherwise. Sexuality, however, isnt taught till a much later age.... atleast if you dont have liberals trying to indoctrinate 5 year olds.

So you were taught to be heterosexual? Someone had to teach you to be attracted to the opposite sex? You'd be better to admit your original argument was in error rather than dig yourself deeper into a hole of illogic.

[darin]

Again you confuse "urges" with "Behaviour". Somebody being attracted to money does NOT make them a theif until they rob a bank, etc.

People 'attracted' to those of their gender are not homosexuals until they indulging their deviant, unhealthy urges.

[Roomy]

I believe the vast majority of gays are born gay, I have no problem with them other than their ridiculous affectations, having said that, if society removes the moral and ethical objections toward homosexuality it is allowing experimentation, I object to that, if it feels good do it...nope.We need the lines drawn in the sand for the morally and ethically bankrupt among us who would fuck a cat and say it was normal if they thought they could get away with it.Sexuality can be learned, propogation and sexual release are a million miles apart.Teach your kids well, if they are gay, they were either born that way or you made them that way, which do you prefer?

[Missileman]

Again you confuse "urges" with "Behaviour". Somebody being attracted to money does NOT make them a theif until they rob a bank, etc.

People 'attracted' to those of their gender are not homosexuals until they indulging their deviant, unhealthy urges.

It wasn't my contention that sexuality is something learned. I'm not the one who's confused.

Any argument that a young man and woman aren't heterosexual until they've lost their virginity is just plain nonsense.

[darin]

It wasn't my contention that sexuality is something learned. I'm not the one who's confused.

Any argument that a young man and woman aren't heterosexual until they've lost their virginity is just plain nonsense.

They aren't sexual until they start having sex. (shrug).

[Roomy]

They aren't sexual until they start having sex. (shrug).


Thats just plain silly and or ignorant unless your definition of sexuality is different to mine and probably most others in the world?Please explain.

[manu1959]

Thats just plain silly and or ignorant unless your definition of sexuality is different to mine and probably most others in the world?Please explain.

if you never have sex......how can you define someone as gay or straight.....

[Missileman]

They aren't sexual until they start having sex. (shrug).

heterosexual:

adjective
1. sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex

[Roomy]

if you never have sex......how can you define someone as gay or straight.....


I don't, they define themselves.

[Missileman]

if you never have sex......how can you define someone as gay or straight.....

You didn't know you wanted to bone a chick before you actually did?

[manu1959]

You didn't know you wanted to bone a chick before you actually did?

when did you learn about that......

[Yurt]

when did you learn about that......

:lol:

[My Winter Storm]

the majority of the gay threads end up with one side saying...they are born that way, it is biological, natural...the other side saying, no, it is a choice. the side for natural points to animals as examples. the side for no says animals are animals and not human.

so, are we born "that" way:

murder
rape
lying
cheating
honesty
mischief
reproduction
anal sex
and on and on

how is it that people who believe in evolution believe that homosexuality is an end game (pun intended), that is, there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, it is a choice, our "right" if you will. what about murder and the rest of the list...feel free to include more.

my opinion is, we are born with certain hereditary traits genetically. whether these traits transform our mind, i am unsure. i am unsure because are the traits automatically in our mind or transform our mind, that being, do we not still have choice. is somehow being born with a liking to anal sex, also a genetic inability to be born with choice, that is, not to have anal sex?

if you choose a gay lifestyle, that is your choice. my opinions are known on the government marriage issue.

mods, if you want to move this, ok, just did not know where to put it.

The homosexual orientation is not a choice, as attraction isn't a choice. The act of homosexuality IS a choice, however.

Killing is a choice, but I am unsure as to whether someone can actually be born a killer.
Rape is a choice, obviously, but I don't think anyone is born to be a rapist, more like it's just they are simply fucked up people.
Lying and cheating are choices and no one was born to lie or cheat. People usually lie and cheat because they believe they can get away with it, or they do it for attention.
Reprodutcion is a choice only if the person wants it to be a choice.
Anal sex is a choice, too.

[Sitarro]

All of Yurt's listed traits are developed. I can't think of any genetic traits that would lead to criminal activity. Though medical research is still open to the idea.

Too many DP posters are hung up on the moral/Biblical implications of homosexuality. You totally ignore the genetic research of such.
Up until 40 years or so ago, it was thought that being left-handed was a "learned" aberration. Parents and teachers alike tried to force left-handed people to function with their right hands.
What about genetic birth diseases? Shouldn't these people come out of the closet and stop wasting our time?

No one is ever "converted" to homosexuality. Nor are they "cured." They might pretend to be. Or proclaim so for social and moral reasons.
Look at people like Larry Craig. Dude has obviously been in the closet for a very long time. Even adapted a very anti-gay stance to cover his tracks.
There are numerous past closet gays who have married and produced children. Some of the most macho icons of Hollywood have turned out to be gay.

It's a genetic trait. Just like gender, skin color, hair color, health traits, etc.
You can only bury yourself in religious fervor so deep.

Phil Michelson, a "natural" right handed person, learned to play golf by emulating his father's golf swing as a mirror image........ he plays left handed. As unnatural as it is for him to do it, he does it and does it very well....... he is the number two golfer in the world. If you ask most people that know golf, they would assume Phil is lefthanded and was born that way. How many learn to play the piano using both hands equally even though they are naturally left or right dominated? Learned behavior.

For years, the lesbian woman was attributed to being abused as a younger child, the same was true for homos.

What proof do you have that homosexuality is natural and not learned?

[OCA]

Sorry, but what you listed are all LEARNED BEHAVIORS and aren't comparable to an innate quality like sexual orientation.


There is only one innate sexual orientation that we are born with and that is an innate attraction to the opposite sex, there is no proof or evidence of anything other than that, please don't offer up claims of things aren't even the least bit rooted in reality.

[Roomy]

There is only one innate sexual orientation that we are born with and that is an innate attraction to the opposite sex, there is no proof or evidence of anything other than that, please don't offer up claims of things aren't even the least bit rooted in reality.


As a Greek, surely heterosexuality is a learned orientation?:laugh2:

[OCA]

As a Greek, surely heterosexuality is a learned orientation?:laugh2:

Speaking of derailing threads.................................

[Missileman]

There is only one innate sexual orientation that we are born with and that is an innate attraction to the opposite sex, there is no proof or evidence of anything other than that, please don't offer up claims of things aren't even the least bit rooted in reality.

1. My statement is accurate as written. Learned behaviors aren't comparable to an innate trait. I didn't specify heterosexuality or homosexuality as the innate orientation that's incomparable to a learned behavior.

2. I'm willing to accept your "claim" as reality as soon as you offer even a shred of proof that 100% of people are born heterosexual. Your first hurdle is to explain the heterosexual orientation of a hermaphrodite.

[Mr. P]

No homosexual I have ever known has said they "chose" to be outcast, ostracized, judged and hated by society at large. After years of being what they weren't they accepted it and are happy folks.

When did any of you homophobes make your choice to be heterosexual? How old were you? You didn't make that choice and that's all the f'king proof you need to accept the fact that it's NOT a choice.

Beat your "choice" drum all you want it doesn't change reality.

[OCA]

No homosexual I have ever known has said they "chose" to be outcast, ostracized, judged and hated by society at large. After years of being what they weren't they accepted it and are happy folks.

When did any of you homophobes make your choice to be heterosexual? How old were you? You didn't make that choice and that's all the f'king proof you need to accept the fact that it's NOT a choice.

Beat your "choice" drum all you want it doesn't change reality.

P can you show me the genetic link to queerness? Its not up to me to prove opposite sex attraction since thats been considered the norm since the dawn of time, its up to you to prove your POV since you are attempting to change norms.

[OCA]

1. My statement is accurate as written. Learned behaviors aren't comparable to an innate trait. I didn't specify heterosexuality or homosexuality as the innate orientation that's incomparable to a learned behavior.

2. I'm willing to accept your "claim" as reality as soon as you offer even a shred of proof that 100% of people are born heterosexual. Your first hurdle is to explain the heterosexual orientation of a hermaphrodite.


The burden of proof lies upon you counselor.

[Missileman]

P can you show me the genetic link to queerness? Its not up to me to prove opposite sex attraction since thats been considered the norm since the dawn of time, its up to you to prove your POV since you are attempting to change norms.

They haven't come up with the cause of gravity yet...it certainly exists. So where's the answer to my question?

[Missileman]

The burden of proof lies upon you counselor.

Sorry, but that dog is fucking dead. It's your assertion, not mine. You made the claim that everyone is born heterosexual...it's your's to prove.

[Roomy]

P can you show me the genetic link to queerness? Its not up to me to prove opposite sex attraction since thats been considered the norm since the dawn of time, its up to you to prove your POV since you are attempting to change norms.

Sex was the norm since the dawn of time, gender wasn't a consideration until relatively recently, you of all people should know that.:laugh2:

[OCA]

Sorry, but that dog is fucking dead. It's your assertion, not mine. You made the claim that everyone is born heterosexual...it's your's to prove.


You want to change whats been considered the norm so its yours to prove(not that I haven't proved mine a thousand times). That dog is alive and hunts and it looks like it has treed a huge fucking coon.

[-Cp]

The homosexual orientation is not a choice, as attraction isn't a choice. The act of homosexuality IS a choice, however.

Killing is a choice, but I am unsure as to whether someone can actually be born a killer.
Rape is a choice, obviously, but I don't think anyone is born to be a rapist, more like it's just they are simply fucked up people.
Lying and cheating are choices and no one was born to lie or cheat. People usually lie and cheat because they believe they can get away with it, or they do it for attention.
Reprodutcion is a choice only if the person wants it to be a choice.
Anal sex is a choice, too.

I think your post has the underpinnings of closing up this debate...

The reason is because, like Cheating, lying, raping, murdering etc... homosexuality is a deviant practice - it cheats society and human nature out of the ongoing reproductive mannerisms we were intended to have.

All the things you outlined - along with engaging in homosexual acts - are in fact sinful in a very tangible way. Even if you don't believe in "God" - there are great reasons to abstain from sinful ways. The reason is because every sin God outlines for us in the Bible are harmful to us - and often - to those around us.

Human's are in fact born with all sorts of wicked desires - I'm willing to be lots of folks in this forum WOULD go rob a bank if they thought they would never get caught and could live in the lap of luxury the rest of their lives. The reason most don't is because we do have guardrails in our life surrounding this issue called Laws.

Much in the same way, God gives us guardrails in life to help keep us from the harm - thievery, lies, raping, homosexuality, and other deviant actons all prevent us from living the fullfilling life God intended for us.

[Missileman]

You want to change whats been considered the norm so its yours to prove(not that I haven't proved mine a thousand times). That dog is alive and hunts and it looks like it has treed a huge fucking coon.

Intellectually bankrupt bullshit the likes of Cupcake. His MO os to make statements and when pressed to back em up, suggests it's not his to prove. I've already proven your statement wrong...not that you'll even acknowledge the question that proves it. Let me ask you again...if 100% of people are born heterosexual, explain the heterosexuality of hermaphrodites.

[glockmail]

.... I'm willing to accept your "claim" as reality as soon as you offer even a shred of proof that 100% of people are born heterosexual. Your first hurdle is to explain the heterosexual orientation of a hermaphrodite. There you go right there. This QE finally admits that queers, if they are born that way, are an abboration. Now someone please explain to me why it is something that is normal, moral, natural and healthy, and should be encouraged.

[Roomy]

There you go right there. This QE finally admits that queers, if they are born that way, are an abboration. Now someone please explain to me why it is something that is normal, moral, natural and healthy, and should be encouraged.


Who said it should be encouraged? I am sure there are those here that could make a convincing argument for your other questions but something tells me it would be a complete waste of time and energy.:cool:

[glockmail]

Who said it should be encouraged? I am sure there are those here that could make a convincing argument for your other questions but something tells me it would be a complete waste of time and energy.:cool:
I noticed that you didn't include yourself in those who could put together a convincing argument. :laugh2:

[Roomy]

I noticed that you didn't include yourself in those who could put together a convincing argument. :laugh2:

I am glad your comprehension skills are improving:laugh2:

[OCA]

Intellectually bankrupt bullshit the likes of Cupcake. His MO os to make statements and when pressed to back em up, suggests it's not his to prove. I've already proven your statement wrong...not that you'll even acknowledge the question that proves it. Let me ask you again...if 100% of people are born heterosexual, explain the heterosexuality of hermaphrodites.

Born hetero but with a birth defect, simple really.

Now explain why something that isn't natural, normal or healthy should be encouraged by granting "special rights" on said behavior.

[Missileman]

Born hetero but with a birth defect, simple really.

Heterosexual to which of their genders? A hermaphrodite is both.


Now explain why something that isn't natural, normal or healthy should be encouraged by granting "special rights" on said behavior.

You've yet to prove that it's not natural. Still waiting for your proof that 100% of humans are born heterosexual.

Special rights are extended for abnormal all the time...handi-capped parking comes to mind, so that argument's out.

Which leaves us with unhealthy. Are you going to argue that a monogamous relationship is less healthy than its alternative?

[OCA]

Heterosexual to which of their genders? A hermaphrodite is both.



You've yet to prove that it's not natural. Still waiting for your proof that 100% of humans are born heterosexual.

Special rights are extended for abnormal all the time...handi-capped parking comes to mind, so that argument's out.

Which leaves us with unhealthy. Are you going to argue that a monogamous relationship is less healthy than its alternative?


Cut off the cock or get a full on pussy, makes no difference to me but a choice they must make. Yes they are born htero as are ALL of us.

The handicapped do not spread disease or engage in any of the other various destructive behaviors that queers in fact do engage in. Yes a queer relationship is unhealthy, thats been proven over and iver again.

I fiund it fascinating that logic escapes you.