If you want to understand Islam...

[gabosaurus]

You need to read this woman's book when it is published.

http://sumbulalikaramali.com/

I have attended a speech and a workshop given by this author. She sent me an advance copy of her book The Muslim Next Door, which is brilliant and totally eye-opening.

If you have an open mind, read the book. If you prefer to remain ignorant and hateful, don't.

[stephanie]

You need to read this woman's book when it is published.

http://sumbulalikaramali.com/

I have attended a speech and a workshop given by this author. She sent me an advance copy of her book The Muslim Next Door, which is brilliant and totally eye-opening.

If you have an open mind, read the book. If you prefer to remain ignorant and hateful, don't.

you make me laugh, you talk about others having an open mind, yet you have no idea what that is..

[Yurt]

You need to read this woman's book when it is published.

http://sumbulalikaramali.com/

I have attended a speech and a workshop given by this author. She sent me an advance copy of her book The Muslim Next Door, which is brilliant and totally eye-opening.

If you have an open mind, read the book. If you prefer to remain ignorant and hateful, don't.

typical liberal compassion and open mindedness :poke:

what do you think about the profit thighing his six year old fiancee?

[Silver]

You need to read this woman's book when it is published.

http://sumbulalikaramali.com/

I have attended a speech and a workshop given by this author. She sent me an advance copy of her book The Muslim Next Door, which is brilliant and totally eye-opening.

If you have an open mind, read the book. If you prefer to remain ignorant and hateful, don't.

Really....?
Does she go into why fathers and sons beat the shit out of their daughters and sisters or even just outright kill them for some perceived embarrassment to the family...without any repercussions from their society...?
Does she go into the marriages of female children to old men...?
Does she explain why some Muslim women can't attend school?
Does she explain why Muslim women aren't allowed to drive a car....?
Does she explain why the Muslim women cover up every inch of skin in public? Are they really that freekin' ugly?
Does she explain why women are in reality just slaves....?

I have a million questions...I might really buy the book........
.
.
.
.
.
NOT:finger3::fu::finger3:

[gabosaurus]

Really....?
Does she go into...
I have a million questions...I might really buy the book........


If you want answers, read the book. All your questions are addressed.
If you merely want to remain a hateful fool, then don't.
A lot of right-wing extremists choose to remain blissfully ignorant. Or just ignorant.

[Silver]

If you want answers, read the book. All your questions are addressed.
If you merely want to remain a hateful fool, then don't.
A lot of right-wing extremists choose to remain blissfully ignorant. Or just ignorant.


Well, I really don't give a shit why they treat their women like animals and slaves and just property....
Or why they see fit to kill their daughters for crazy, idiotic reasons....
Or why they give their female children to old men to rape.....

Its enough knowing they actually do it....the why is irrelevant...

Its like saying I should find out why Hitler murdered 6 million Jews....do I really care why....? Do you?

[Yurt]

If you want answers, read the book. All your questions are addressed.
If you merely want to remain a hateful fool, then don't.
A lot of right-wing extremists choose to remain blissfully ignorant. Or just ignorant.

so what do you think of the profit thighing his six year fiancee?

[Silver]

Gabby has the book...she can explain it all to us.....
start with the children bring given in marriage to old men to rape.....

Their must be a really good reason for it, I'm sure...hope its not just the money.....
but then, that would be slavery,wouldn't it...

[gabosaurus]

How can you explain the LDS extremists interpreting the Bible the way they do? How about Fred Phelps or David Koresh?

In case you don't know, the Quran is NOT the word of the prophet Muhammad. It is the word of God as told to the prophet Muhammad.
Yes, that God. The same God as Western religions worship.
Christian religions gathered the Word of God and put it in the Bible. Muslims gathered the Word of God and put it in the Quran.
It is basically the same thing. Muhammad was only one of several prophets. The others are basically the same as in the Bible, including Moses, the Disciples and others.

The Quran is written in Arabic, which is filled with (to non-Arabic speakers) unfathomable linguistic patterns and elliptical phrases. Even native Arabic speakers fail to understand many of them.

The book points out that there are many extremist interpretations of the Quran. There are factions that use the Quran as a weapon of oppression and death, just as Christian religions have done so for centuries.
To say that bin Laden and his ilk speak for all Muslims is like saying that Fred Phelps speaks for all Christians.

Not that I expect any of you to understand this. Because you don't want to.

[gabosaurus]

start with the children bring given in marriage to old men to rape.....

Their must be a really good reason for it, I'm sure...hope its not just the money.....
but then, that would be slavery,wouldn't it...

Certain Christian religions believe in all of this. Do they represent you?
After all, they are Christian, the same way you are.

[hjmick]

Not that I expect any of you to understand this. Because you don't want to.

Yeah, we're all just a bunch of idiots.

How do you get atop a horse that high?

[gabosaurus]

I don't think you are an idiot. I think there are certain issues that you choose not to understand.
If you are really passionate about an issue, you don't want to change your mind about it. You choose not to conquer your fears.

[Silver]

How can you explain the LDS extremists interpreting the Bible the way they do? How about Fred Phelps or David Koresh?

In case you don't know, the Quran is NOT the word of the prophet Muhammad. It is the word of God as told to the prophet Muhammad.
Yes, that God. The same God as Western religions worship.
Christian religions gathered the Word of God and put it in the Bible. Muslims gathered the Word of God and put it in the Quran.
It is basically the same thing. Muhammad was only one of several prophets. The others are basically the same as in the Bible, including Moses, the Disciples and others.

The Quran is written in Arabic, which is filled with (to non-Arabic speakers) unfathomable linguistic patterns and elliptical phrases. Even native Arabic speakers fail to understand many of them.

The book points out that there are many extremist interpretations of the Quran. There are factions that use the Quran as a weapon of oppression and death, just as Christian religions have done so for centuries.
To say that bin Laden and his ilk speak for all Muslims is like saying that Fred Phelps speaks for all Christians.

Not that I expect any of you to understand this. Because you don't want to.

Wow...and this is supposed to reveal to us 'blissfully ignorant' and 'hateful fools' why some Islamic fanatics kill their children, sell them into slavery, treat women like animals and property and declare war on infidels and terrorize the civilized world....or why they beat women on the streets if they are not on a leash held by a man....
Actually you 'reveal nothing'.....and you're right...I don't care...its irrelevant to the murders they commit around the world....
just as I don't care why Hitler gassed the Jews by the thousands....the "why" doesn't matter in the freekin' least....

How can you explain the LDS extremists interpreting the Bible the way they do? How about Fred Phelps or David Koresh?

Why do I have to have an explanation for the LDS extremists or about Fred Phelps or David Koresh?.

I can only hope the next Dem. Admin. takes care of these religious nuts in the same fashion they took care of Koresh....:salute:
I can't rely on an R admin. to do anything....:coffee:

[gabosaurus]

How do "Islamic extremists" (your words) represent the entire religion of Islam? You have never explained that.

Should everyone in the non-Christian world hate Christianity because of pedophile priests, child predators and rapists and various other sects who believe in human sacrifice, total subservience and even snake handling?

Like I said before, you don't want understanding. You want hatred.

[hjmick]

I don't think you are an idiot. I think there are certain issues that you choose not to understand.
If you are really passionate about an issue, you don't want to change your mind about it. You choose not to conquer your fears.

Don't misinterpret my lack of interest in discussing an issue as a lack of passion. My views on religion, any religion, somewhat preclude me from discussing issues based in religion as I find no justification for behavior based on theological dogma. This goes to Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and any other -ism I may have failed to mention. I do make exceptions to that rule when discussing terrorism and those who use their religious beliefs to justify it's use.

I could rail against the way "X" followers treat their women all day long because it is inhuman, no book however well written, no book or belief however widespread or well intentioned, no turn of phrase or "unfathomable linguistic patterns and elliptical phrases" can justify treating anyone as less than an equal.

[Yurt]

why are you ignoring the fact that the profit thighed his six year old fiancee? you want an open discussion, you want us to consider islam, yet you ignore just what kind of person founded islam. the quran is not the word of "god", it is the word of mumu or his fake "god" Allah, at least get your facts straight when trying to teach others about islam :poke:

allah says that jesus is nothing more than a man, allah says christianity is fake, get with the program...

[Yurt]

Men have power/advantage over women and can beat them if they disobey
Surah 4 (the women)

34: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allâh has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allâh and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allâh orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see ill*conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allâh is Ever Most High, Most Great.

Surah 2 (the cow)

228: but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

More women in hell
Bukari Hadith (most respected english version)

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 464:
Narrated 'Imran bin Husain:

The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and found poor people forming the majority of its inhabitants; and I looked at Hell and saw that the majority of its inhabitants were women."

Women do not have equal witness authority

Surah 2
282: get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.

Wives are chattel

Surah 2
223: Your wives are a tilth for you, so go to your tilth (have sexual relations with your wives in any manner as long as it is in the vagina and not in the anus), when or how you will, and send (good deeds, or ask Allâh to bestow upon you pious offspring) before you for your ownselves. And fear Allâh, and know that you are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give good tidings to the believers (O Muhammad SAW).


http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=9810&highlight=islam

[Nukeman]

Don't misinterpret my lack of interest in discussing an issue as a lack of passion. My views on religion, any religion, somewhat preclude me from discussing issues based in religion as I find no justification for behavior based on theological dogma. This goes to Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and any other -ism I may have failed to mention. I do make exceptions to that rule when discussing terrorism and those who use their religious beliefs to justify it's use.

I could rail against the way "X" followers treat their women all day long because it is inhuman, no book however well written, no book or belief however widespread or well intentioned, no turn of phrase or "unfathomable linguistic patterns and elliptical phrases" can justify treating anyone as less than an equal.

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Very well put.

You know gabs some of on here have actually been studying Islam for a number of years Myself included. I do not profess to be an expert by any stretch of the imagination. However I have to agree with hjmick on this one ANY religion that can find justification for treating ANYONE as less than an equal is not good.

I know the argument that woman are to be covered as a sign of honor toward them and to keep men from having lust in their hearts for them. This my little girl is a failing not on the womans part but the mans plain and simple. IF they (the men of Islam) were really that concerned about their womans honor they wouldn't have "limited marriages" that last for a couple of hours for the sex. They also would realize that the lust they so disdain comes from their very own hearts and not through the looks of a woman. If and I say IF they can not control themselves they should take the religious text to heart and "cut out the offending part" that way they wouldn't have to look upon those wicked women.

You my dear make a great number of assumptions in your communications with us here on DP. Never assume to know everything or in most cases "anything" about the people that post on here. You only know what they allow you to know and that is it..

Please rethink your stance on this and realize there are a number of people on this very board who have been studying Islam longer than you have been out of high school or in some cases grade school... :poke:

[Silver]

How do "Islamic extremists" (your words) represent the entire religion of Islam? You have never explained that.

Should everyone in the non-Christian world hate Christianity because of pedophile priests, child predators and rapists and various other sects who believe in human sacrifice, total subservience and even snake handling?

Like I said before, you don't want understanding. You want hatred.

Here is the plain and simple truth that you fail to realize.....

Pedophiles, child predators, rapists, cannibals, robbers, thieves, druggies, and any and every other criminal act you care to name is committed by CRIMINALS...
Its not particular to Catholics, UCC members, LDS followers, whites, blacks, or Indians....we have our insane individuals,................. Islam breeds an insane society....

Muslims are a problem everywhere they take root....it doesn't matter if they are a majority or a minority in an area or country...its their religious beliefs as a group that defy ...defy what a majority of the world views as civilized behaviour....within their own country's ...they enslave their own....
outside their own lands, they demand their customs be the law rather than the host country.....

Even thou there are numerous sects within the muslim faith, they seem to all have something in common.....
A hatred of infidels...
Women as literal slaves and property....
and its obvious they value death over life....their own and yours....

[gabosaurus]

why are you ignoring the fact that the profit thighed his six year old fiancee?

I am at a loss to find a reference to this anyplace. The Quran does not mention specific ages in regard to any events regarding Muhammad.


the quran is not the word of "god", it is the word of mumu or his fake "god" Allah, at least get your facts straight when trying to teach others about islam


First of all, Allah is not a separate person than God. Allah is the Arabic word for God. Because the Quran is written in Arabic, with all prayers said in Arabic, God is referred to as Allah.
Muhammad is not a a god. Muhammad was a person, one of the prophets of God. In the Quran, Jesus was a mortal prophet of God.
Muslims do not pray to Muhammad. They pray to Allah. Muhammad is merely a prophet.
In the Christian Bible, there are many messengers of God's word. That is why there are so many books of the Bible.
According to Islam, Muhammad was the sole initial recipient of God's word. Later prophets, such as Jesus, lived to spread the word of God and continue the worship.




allah says christianity is fake, get with the program

This is a misconception or misinterpretation. The Quran says this:

I do not worship that which you worship
And neither do you worship that which I worship
Unto you, your religion, and unto me, mine.

[gabosaurus]

You might be interested in what Muslim scholars says about radical extremists such as bin Laden. They are condemned by the majority of Muslims who live peacefully.

You shall only commit aggression on those who have first committed aggression. When your neighbor seeks peace, you must grant it.
Those who commit warfare on a peaceful nation are exiled to an unworldly place

True Islam does not approve of terrorism. War is only a last resort of self-defense.
It is the Muslim equivalent of doves vs. hawks. The extremists believe war is the only way to serve God. The rest believe only peaceful worship serves God.

[gabosaurus]

Much of what is written about the hard line extremist Muslims is true. They use their own interpretations of the Quran to enslave, imprison and otherwise demean and punish certain sectors of their society.
It's really not much more extreme than how certain extremist Christian sects interpret the Bible to justify doing various things such as polygamy, forced marriages, marriages of children to adults, and sacrifice of humans and animals.
Jim Jones led over 900 people to their deaths. David Korresh led a similar massacre. Tim McVeigh blew up the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City in protest of the Waco tragedy. Andrea Yates killed her five kids because God told her to. The guy in Texas placed his baby in a microwave for the same reason. Fred Phelps believes everyone in the U.S. sins against God.
Alcohol is banned in Islamic countries. Many Christian countries make a ritual out of getting drunk.
Drug use or possession in Islamic countries is punishable by death. In other places, you barely get a slap on the wrist.
Muslims base their entire lives around prayer and servitude. Many Christians are hard pressed to attend worship once a week.

Right-wing extremists would admire the Islamic punishment for wrongful death, though.
If you get mad and kill your neighbor, not only are you put to death in retribution, but your neighbor's family gets all of your property. Including your spouse and your kids.

[stephanie]

You might be interested in what Muslim scholars says about radical extremists such as bin Laden. They are condemned by the majority of Muslims who live peacefully.

You shall only commit aggression on those who have first committed aggression. When your neighbor seeks peace, you must grant it.
Those who commit warfare on a peaceful nation are exiled to an unworldly place

True Islam does not approve of terrorism. War is only a last resort of self-defense.
It is the Muslim equivalent of doves vs. hawks. The extremists believe war is the only way to serve God. The rest believe only peaceful worship serves God.

You spew about extremist Christian religions in one breath, as you glorify Islam in the other.

I refuse to accept ANY RELIGION, that subjugates their women as a second class citizen. You are free to chose what religion you want to embrace, but if I don't want to embrace Islam, that doesn't make me a hater..

You my dear, are far from open minded and non-judgmental..
You really need to stop pretending that you are.:cheers2:

[Yurt]

UOTE=gabosaurus;263150]I am at a loss to find a reference to this anyplace. The Quran does not mention specific ages in regard to any events regarding Muhammad.

in islam, the hadiths (words from muhammad or examples of his life) are considered equal with the quran. in order to more fully understand islam, you cannot ignore the hadiths/sunnah of the prophet. shia's ignore most of the sunnah, but the sunnis do not. here is the reference to thighing (all from answring islam)

After the committee studied the issue, they gave the following reply:
It has not been the practice of the Muslims throughout the centuries to resort to this unlawful practice that has come to our countries from pornographic movies that the kufar (infidels) and enemies of Islam send. As for the prophet, peace and prayer of Allah be upon him, thighing his fiancée Aisha. She was six years of age and he could not have intercourse with her due to her small age. That is why [the prophet] peace and prayer of Allah be upon him placed HIS [MALE] MEMBER BETWEEN HER THIGHS AND MASSAGED IT SOFTLY, as the apostle of Allah had control of his [male] member not like other believers.. (Source: http://www.sout-al-haqe.com/pal/musical/mofakhaza.ram)

The following link provides independent evidence that the above fatwah does indeed exist:

http://www.islamic-fatwa.net/viewtopic.php?TopicID=8330




First of all, Allah is not a separate person than God. Allah is the Arabic word for God. Because the Quran is written in Arabic, with all prayers said in Arabic, God is referred to as Allah.
Muhammad is not a a god. Muhammad was a person, one of the prophets of God. In the Quran, Jesus was a mortal prophet of God.
Muslims do not pray to Muhammad. They pray to Allah. Muhammad is merely a prophet.
In the Christian Bible, there are many messengers of God's word. That is why there are so many books of the Bible.
According to Islam, Muhammad was the sole initial recipient of God's word. Later prophets, such as Jesus, lived to spread the word of God and continue the worship.

i think you misspoke, jesus came before muhammad. the quran is very clear that jesus is not equal with god and the christians have it wrong. something i wrote a couple of years ago:


4.171 . O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth . The Messiah , Jesus son of Mary , was only a messenger of Allah , and His word which He conveyed unto Mary , and a spirit from Him . So believe in Allah and His messengers , and say not "Three" . Cease! ( it is ) better for you! Allah is only One God . Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son . His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth . And Allah is sufficient as Defender .



Again, he is talking about Mary and Jesus and that which he conveyed unto Mary and a spirit from Him. Then the Quran says "say not Three" What three is being talked about then?



5.72 . They surely disbelieve who say : Lo! Allah is the Messiah , son of Mary . The Messiah ( himself ) said : O Children of Israel , worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord . Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah , for him Allah hath forbidden Paradise . His abode is the Fire . For evildoers there will be no helpers .





لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ ثَالِثُ ثَلاَثَةٍ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَـهٍ إِلاَّ إِلَـهٌ وَاحِدٌ وَإِن لَّمْ يَنتَهُواْ عَمَّا يَقُولُونَ لَيَمَسَّنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِنْهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ http://thetruereligion.org/modules/Q...ages/audio.gif



5.73 . They surely disbelieve who say : Lo! Allah is the third of three ; when there is no God save the One God . If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve .





أَفَلاَ يَتُوبُونَ إِلَى اللّهِ وَيَسْتَغْفِرُونَهُ وَاللّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ http://thetruereligion.org/modules/Q...ages/audio.gif



5.74 . Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving , Merciful .





مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَامَ انظُرْ كَيْفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الآيَاتِ ثُمَّ انظُرْ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ http://thetruereligion.org/modules/Q...ages/audio.gif




5.75 . The Messiah , son of Mary , was no other than a messenger , messengers ( the like of whom ) had passed away before him . And his mother was a saintly woman . And they both used to eat ( earthly ) food . See how we make the revelations clear for them , and see how they are turned away!



This is a misconception or misinterpretation. The Quran says this:

I do not worship that which you worship
And neither do you worship that which I worship
Unto you, your religion, and unto me, mine.

do you still stand by this or did the verses i gave you above change your mind?

[Yurt]

You spew about extremist Christian religions in one breath, as you glorify Islam in the other.
I refuse to accept ANY RELIGION, that subjugates their women as a second class citizen. You are free to chose what religion you want to embrace, but if I don't want to embrace Islam, that doesn't make me a hater..

You my dear, are far from open minded and non-judgmental..
You really need to stop pretending that you are.:cheers2:

:clap: i really have no idea why, islam is counter to most of her beliefs

[crin63]

What about Aisha the 7 year old bride of the Muhammad. The marriage was consummated when she was 9 years old.

Does that matter?

[gabosaurus]

You spew about extremist Christian religions in one breath, as you glorify Islam in the other.

I refuse to accept ANY RELIGION, that subjugates their women as a second class citizen. You are free to chose what religion you want to embrace, but if I don't want to embrace Islam, that doesn't make me a hater..

You my dear, are far from open minded and non-judgmental..
You really need to stop pretending that you are.

I am not "glorifying" anything. Making an attempt to understand someone's belief is not the same as "glorifying."

True Islam does not make women second class citizens. If you look at non-extremist Muslim countries, women are treated much more equally.

As for Yurt, I have no idea which interpretation of the Quran he is quoting from. Different sects translate the Quran in different ways.
Take the whole "72 virgins" thing. The interpretation I read does not have a sexual connotation to it. It stated that life after death will feature a multitude of pleasures.

That is why the author cautions against basing beliefs on translations of the Quran. Since Muslims believe it can only be read, studied and understood in the original Arabic.

[manu1959]

You need to read this woman's book when it is published.

http://sumbulalikaramali.com/

I have attended a speech and a workshop given by this author. She sent me an advance copy of her book The Muslim Next Door, which is brilliant and totally eye-opening.

If you have an open mind, read the book. If you prefer to remain ignorant and hateful, don't.

brilliant....cant wait to read the part about

honour killings....

and cutting the **** off your daughter....

[gabosaurus]

Here is something I found about Muhammad and his "marriages."

http://www.themodernreligion.com/prophet/prophet_aisha.htm

[Yurt]

I am not "glorifying" anything. Making an attempt to understand someone's belief is not the same as "glorifying."

True Islam does not make women second class citizens. If you look at non-extremist Muslim countries, women are treated much more equally.

As for Yurt, I have no idea which interpretation of the Quran he is quoting from. Different sects translate the Quran in different ways.
Take the whole "72 virgins" thing. The interpretation I read does not have a sexual connotation to it. It stated that life after death will feature a multitude of pleasures.

That is why the author cautions against basing beliefs on translations of the Quran. Since Muslims believe it can only be read, studied and understood in the original Arabic.

please reread my post...there was no interpretation of the quran on my part, i quoted translations only, do you not see how the quran says jesus and god are not the same, that christians should not say "3". if you think the translations are wrong, then how do you know your position is right?

are you saying that muslims believe in the trinity?

[stephanie]

That is why the author cautions against basing beliefs on translations of the Quran. Since Muslims believe it can only be read, studied and understood in the original Arabic.

Exactly..us infidels have no clue.
but if we don't understand their beliefs, we are haters..as you so helpfully propagate.

But if they don't understand our religion.......too fXXXking bad, we are still the haters..:poke:

[crin63]

Here is something I found about Muhammad and his "marriages."

http://www.themodernreligion.com/prophet/prophet_aisha.htm

Okay, heres something I found about Muhammad's marriage to Aisha.

http://www.muslimhope.com/AishaNine.htm
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm

Would it matter to you if Muhammad consummated the marriage to Aisha when she was 9 years old? Would it change your view if its shown to be true?

[5stringJeff]

In case you don't know, the Quran is NOT the word of the prophet Muhammad. It is the word of God as told to the prophet Muhammad.
Yes, that God. The same God as Western religions worship.
Christian religions gathered the Word of God and put it in the Bible. Muslims gathered the Word of God and put it in the Quran.
It is basically the same thing. Muhammad was only one of several prophets. The others are basically the same as in the Bible, including Moses, the Disciples and others.

That is the Muslim interpretation of things, for sure. However, the Christian God (three Persons in one God) is not the same as the Muslim Allah (one person of God). Because Islam denies the divinity of Christ and the Trinity, they necessarily do not worship the same God as Christians.

[Gaffer]

allah is the arab moon god. The qoran is taken from parts of the torah, the new testiment, and hindu texts. The rest is made up by muhammod depending on his mood at the time.

The qoran is to be read in arabic because it is a way to subdue everyone. Just like facing mecca is a way to put the arabs in a superior position. It is all about arab superiority.

islam is not about equality for anyone. islam means submission. gabs needs to read up on dhimmi's, as she is one.

[Yurt]

allah is the arab moon god. The qoran is taken from parts of the torah, the new testiment, and hindu texts. The rest is made up by muhammod depending on his mood at the time.

The qoran is to be read in arabic because it is a way to subdue everyone. Just like facing mecca is a way to put the arabs in a superior position. It is all about arab superiority.

islam is not about equality for anyone. islam means submission. gabs needs to read up on dhimmi's, as she is one.

so true, mumu first had his followers pray towards jerusalem, then when the jews said, you ain't no prophet foo, you only be a profit mofo, did muhammad say that muslims must now pray toward mecca...allah must not be all knowing, cuz he fo sho missed that one ;)

[crin63]

so true, mumu first had his followers pray towards jerusalem, then when the jews said, you ain't no prophet foo, you only be a profit mofo, did muhammad say that muslims must now pray toward mecca...allah must not be all knowing, cuz he fo sho missed that one ;)

Nuke Mecca! Problem solved! :coffee:

They won't know how to pray or where to pray to. The confusion will cause them to chase their tails for a century or two before they figure something out.

[Abbey Marie]

Are Muslims open-mindedly reading the New Testament? The Torah?
It seems not.

[Yurt]

Are Muslims open-mindedly reading the New Testament? The Torah?
It seems not.

how about gabby..

[MtnBiker]

You need to read this woman's book when it is published.

http://sumbulalikaramali.com/

I have attended a speech and a workshop given by this author. She sent me an advance copy of her book The Muslim Next Door, which is brilliant and totally eye-opening.

If you have an open mind, read the book. If you prefer to remain ignorant and hateful, don't.


Are Muslims open-mindedly reading the New Testament? The Torah?
It seems not.


Open minded to reading the New Testament or the Torah? Or even reading that women's book. It is not a question if most muslims are opened minded, but rather if they can even read. The illiteracy rate in muslim country is very high. Should we try to understand Islam? How well do muslim's themselves understand Islam?


Economically, Muslims are poor; in education they are backward; and in science and technology they are marginal. The average literacy rate is around 35-38 per cent and in rural areas in Muslim countries, the illiteracy rate among Muslim women is 93 to 97 percent. This is contradictory to the message of the Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad (s).
http://www.islamfortoday.com/syed04.htm

[gabosaurus]

Wondering off topic a bit, aren't we?

[Yurt]

Wondering off topic a bit, aren't we?

then would you answer post 30 in relation to post 24, thanks

[gabosaurus]

please reread my post...there was no interpretation of the quran on my part, i quoted translations only, do you not see how the quran says jesus and god are not the same, that christians should not say "3". if you think the translations are wrong, then how do you know your position is right?
are you saying that muslims believe in the trinity?

Here is the obvious focal point:

i quoted translations only

I don't know if my position is right. I don't if any position is "right."

From what I read, Muslim believe in God. "Allah" is the Arabic word for God. "Allah" is not a separate person.
Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet. They don't believe Jesus was the "son of God," since that would give God human qualities.
Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet, the same way Muhammad was a prophet. The primary difference is that Muslims believe Muhammad received the Word of God. Jesus was a prophet who spread the word of God.
Jesus and God are not the same. Jesus is the son of God.

A word about problems with translations and interpretations of the Quran.
The Quran was written in the seventh century. It has never been changed or updated. The Arabic in the Quran is not the same as modern Arabic, just as modern English is not the same as it was centuries (read Shakespeare or Beowulf for proof). There are references to situations, mannerisms and such that can only by explained by scholars of ancient Arabic and seventh-century Middle Eastern studies.

As for the many translations of the Quran and explanations of such, they are only there to help explain the basics.

An interesting point: Mainstream Muslims completely ignore and disavow the "commands" and "fatwahs" of the radical extremists. They believe that only God can issue directives. And that the only original quotations from the Quran are accepted as directives.

On one Muslim site, some asked what would happen if bin Laden and his ilk were put on trial in a Muslim tribunal. The consensus was that he would be executed for disobeying the teachings of the Quran. Which states that only God can lead Muslims into battle.

[Yurt]

Here is the obvious focal point:

i quoted translations only

I don't know if my position is right. I don't if any position is "right."

From what I read, Muslim believe in God. "Allah" is the Arabic word for God. "Allah" is not a separate person.
Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet. They don't believe Jesus was the "son of God," since that would give God human qualities.
Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet, the same way Muhammad was a prophet. The primary difference is that Muslims believe Muhammad received the Word of God. Jesus was a prophet who spread the word of God.
Jesus and God are not the same. Jesus is the son of God.

A word about problems with translations and interpretations of the Quran.
The Quran was written in the seventh century. It has never been changed or updated. The Arabic in the Quran is not the same as modern Arabic, just as modern English is not the same as it was centuries (read Shakespeare or Beowulf for proof). There are references to situations, mannerisms and such that can only by explained by scholars of ancient Arabic and seventh-century Middle Eastern studies.

As for the many translations of the Quran and explanations of such, they are only there to help explain the basics.

An interesting point: Mainstream Muslims completely ignore and disavow the "commands" and "fatwahs" of the radical extremists. They believe that only God can issue directives. And that the only original quotations from the Quran are accepted as directives.

On one Muslim site, some asked what would happen if bin Laden and his ilk were put on trial in a Muslim tribunal. The consensus was that he would be executed for disobeying the teachings of the Quran. Which states that only God can lead Muslims into battle.

you just agreed with what i said, they do not view Jesus as the Son of God. i am not sure why you insist on the translation issue, when any arabic speaking muslim will verify that. thus, allah cannot be the same "god" as allah has never had a son, nor will he ever, whereas Jesus is God's son and equal or one with God and the quran expressly says this is false, desist from saying that.

as to the translation issue, i have debunked that issue with muslims previously. if the quran is the eternal word of allah, then to limit solely to arabic is to limit allah and thus allah is not perfect. i seriously doubt the verses translated by muslims (you see i had the arabic below the english) are wrong. ask any muslim.

[MtnBiker]

Wondering off topic a bit, aren't we?

The topic of your thread is understanding islam. I brought up the point of the severe illiteracy rate in muslim country and questioned muslim's understanding of islam. How is that off topic?

[hjmick]

The topic of your thread is understanding islam. I brought up the point of the severe illiteracy rate in muslim country and questioned muslim's understanding of islam. How is that off topic?

It's not, well, except that it does not fit within the framework of the discussion she hoped would ensue.

[gabosaurus]

There are severe illiteracy rates everywhere. Very few Muslims really understand the Quran. Just as very few Christians understand the Bible. We merely accept it as the Word of God.

[Kathianne]

There are severe illiteracy rates everywhere. Very few Muslims really understand the Quran. Just as very few Christians understand the Bible. We merely accept it as the Word of God.

Really? What are 'severe' literacy rates? Where in the West is a country that has female illiteracy rates comparable to Muslim majority countries?

Might want to start here:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/

[gabosaurus]

Depends on whether you are referring to Muslim countries with hard line governments. Or countries that have a large rural area.
Western countries are more developed. It's apples and oranges.
The U.S, also has areas where the populace has illiteracy rates. Look at RSR... :p

[Yurt]

Depends on whether you are referring to Muslim countries with hard line governments. Or countries that have a large rural area.
Western countries are more developed. It's apples and oranges.
The U.S, also has areas where the populace has illiteracy rates. Look at RSR... :p


Wondering off topic a bit, aren't we?

so, do you agree that allah and god are not the same, now that you know one has a son and the other does not?

[gabosaurus]

Dude, listen closely

Allah is the Arabic word for God. Allah and God are the same person.
The difference is in the beliefs of Muslims and the beliefs of Christianity.
Turn off your hate shield and turn on your comprehension factor. It will do you good.

[Yurt]

Dude, listen closely

Allah is the Arabic word for God. Allah and God are the same person.
The difference is in the beliefs of Muslims and the beliefs of Christianity.
Turn off your hate shield and turn on your comprehension factor. It will do you good.

how can they be the same if one had a son and one did not? what hate, you clearly are the one resorting to insults in this thread, i have engaged you in courteous debate and you resort to hate mongering, nice.

again, one god says he had a son, the other says he did not. allah says christians are wrong. what do you not comprehend about this? allah was used to reference the moon god long before muhammad was born. what say you to that? simply because a "word" means something does not make the person the same. is your "father" my "father" simply because you call him "father?"

[crin63]

She wants Islam to be equal to Christianity and no amount of facts are going to change her view.

Don't confuse her with facts.

[gabosaurus]

how can they be the same if one had a son and one did not? what hate, you clearly are the one resorting to insults in this thread, i have engaged you in courteous debate and you resort to hate mongering, nice.

again, one god says he had a son, the other says he did not. allah says christians are wrong. what do you not comprehend about this? allah was used to reference the moon god long before muhammad was born. what say you to that? simply because a "word" means something does not make the person the same. is your "father" my "father" simply because you call him "father?"

I get frustrated because you make no sense at all.
Muslims believe much of the same things that Christians believe. Muslims believe in God. The Islamic word for "God" is Allah.
The difference is the interpretation. In the Quran, all the prophets are mortal men. Muhammad was man. So was Jesus. He was born to Mary. Only the concept of the virgin birth is difference.
As I pointed out very plainly above, The Quran does not say Christianity is wrong. It merely says that Muslims do not believe in it. Just as Christians do not believe in Islam.

I am not stating my personal opinion here. I am trying to relate how the Quran states things.
Just because I am trying to explain Islam doesn't mean I endorse it. I don't understand it enough to endorse it. Just like I don't understand Eastern religions such as Buddhism.
But yes, I consider all religions to be equal. Since they all worship God.

[Gaffer]

Here you go. islam in a nut shell.

http://www.antimullah.com/

Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult.

In it's fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life.

Alan Note: All loyalty is to Allah and only Allah, not to any state or nation. All behavior has to conform to the Koranic sharia dictates, the Sura and the Hadith (as defined and interpreted by Mullahs - often contradicting each other) and the INFALLIBLE example set by Allah's Prophet Mohammad, perfection on earth, by how he lived his life.

Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components.

Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges.

When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well.

Here's how it works.( SOMEONE SHOULD MAKE SURE BUSH & RICE READ THIS ONE AND RIGHT AWAY ) !!

As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace- loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens.

This is the case in:

United States -- Muslim 0.6%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1.8%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs.

This is happening in:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims.

They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply.

This is occurring in:

France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad &Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law.

The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions.

In Paris , we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam, and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam , with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam.

Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in:

Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 15%


Read the rest at the site. This is islam and how it is spread.

gabs is a victim of stealth jihad. Like so many others.

[Yurt]

gabosaurus;264163]I get frustrated because you make no sense at all.

feeling is mutual, however, i continue to try to understand your POV. why don't you ask me more questions in order to discern what i am really saying if you are having difficulty understanding it.


Muslims believe much of the same things that Christians believe. Muslims believe in God. The Islamic word for "God" is Allah.

much (i think very little other than what muslims stole, but for sake of our discussion) is not "all"....do you see...you do see a difference between the faiths, how can the author then be the same.


The difference is the interpretation. In the Quran, all the prophets are mortal men. Muhammad was man. So was Jesus. He was born to Mary. Only the concept of the virgin birth is difference.
As I pointed out very plainly above, The Quran does not say Christianity is wrong. It merely says that Muslims do not believe in it. Just as Christians do not believe in Islam.

do muslism believe allah had a son? it is really that simple. yes or no gabs. God, to christianity had a son, Jesus. allah, to muslims and the quran is very clear, had no son. what is it you do not understand about this concept?


I am not stating my personal opinion here. I am trying to relate how the Quran states things.
Just because I am trying to explain Islam doesn't mean I endorse it. I don't understand it enough to endorse it. Just like I don't understand Eastern religions such as Buddhism.
But yes, I consider all religions to be equal. Since they all worship God.[/QUOTE]

gabby, i gave you verbatim text from the quran that said christians are wrong to say Jesus is divine...i posted it twice for you, are you saying those verses are wrong? further, you never answered my questioned about "father." your argument is that because "allah" means "god" that allah must be god because the "word" is the same. ok then, is your father the same as my father because we both call him father?

[hjmick]

This should help you "understand" Islam:


Saudi Marriage Official Says 1-Year-Old Brides OK

Call it marriage, Islamic style.

Saudi marriage officiant Dr. Ahmad al-Mu’bi told Lebanese television viewers last week that it’s permissible for girls as young as 1 to marry — as long as sex is postponed.

Al-Mu’bi’s remarkable comments also included an explanation that “there is no minimal age for entering marriage.”

“You can have a marriage contract even with a 1-year-old girl, not to mention a girl of 9, 7 or 8,” he said. “But is the girl ready for sex or not?” What is the appropriate age for sex for the first time? This varies according to environment and tradition,” al-Mu’bi said.

Watch al-Mu’bi’s interview here... (http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1798.htm)

[actsnoblemartin]

understanding islam

death, death, death, pedophilia, and anger management counseling

[actsnoblemartin]

brilliant :clap:


Here you go. islam in a nut shell.

http://www.antimullah.com/

Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult.

In it's fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life.

Alan Note: All loyalty is to Allah and only Allah, not to any state or nation. All behavior has to conform to the Koranic sharia dictates, the Sura and the Hadith (as defined and interpreted by Mullahs - often contradicting each other) and the INFALLIBLE example set by Allah's Prophet Mohammad, perfection on earth, by how he lived his life.

Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components.

Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges.

When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well.

Here's how it works.( SOMEONE SHOULD MAKE SURE BUSH & RICE READ THIS ONE AND RIGHT AWAY ) !!

As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace- loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens.

This is the case in:

United States -- Muslim 0.6%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1.8%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs.

This is happening in:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims.

They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply.

This is occurring in:

France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad &Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law.

The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions.

In Paris , we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam, and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam , with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam.

Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in:

Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 15%


Read the rest at the site. This is islam and how it is spread.

gabs is a victim of stealth jihad. Like so many others.

[Yurt]

gabby, have you given up on trying to understand a position other than yours? do you only accept ideas that conform to yours?

[hjmick]

XFvHEXMxrrA

[Yurt]

gabby, have you given up on trying to understand a position other than yours? do you only accept ideas that conform to yours?

the answer, sadly, appears to be yes...how tolerant and open minded

[crin63]

There are severe illiteracy rates everywhere. Very few Muslims really understand the Quran. Just as very few Christians understand the Bible. We merely accept it as the Word of God.

Which one do except as the word of God? The quran or The Bible?

[MtnBiker]

There are severe illiteracy rates everywhere. Very few Muslims really understand the Quran. Just as very few Christians understand the Bible. We merely accept it as the Word of God.

Fortunately most in the west can at least read the Bible if they wanted to.

[Yurt]

Men have power/advantage over women and can beat them if they disobey
Surah 4 (the women)

34: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allâh has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allâh and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allâh orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see ill*conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allâh is Ever Most High, Most Great.

Surah 2 (the cow)

228: but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

More women in hell
Bukari Hadith (most respected english version)

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 464:
Narrated 'Imran bin Husain:

The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and found poor people forming the majority of its inhabitants; and I looked at Hell and saw that the majority of its inhabitants were women."

Women do not have equal witness authority

Surah 2
282: get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.

Wives are chattel

Surah 2
223: Your wives are a tilth for you, so go to your tilth (have sexual relations with your wives in any manner as long as it is in the vagina and not in the anus), when or how you will, and send (good deeds, or ask Allâh to bestow upon you pious offspring) before you for your ownselves. And fear Allâh, and know that you are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give good tidings to the believers (O Muhammad SAW).


http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=9810&highlight=islam

4.171 . O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth . The Messiah , Jesus son of Mary , was only a messenger of Allah , and His word which He conveyed unto Mary , and a spirit from Him . So believe in Allah and His messengers , and say not "Three" . Cease! ( it is ) better for you! Allah is only One God . Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son . His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth . And Allah is sufficient as Defender .



5.72 . They surely disbelieve who say : Lo! Allah is the Messiah , son of Mary . The Messiah ( himself ) said : O Children of Israel , worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord . Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah , for him Allah hath forbidden Paradise . His abode is the Fire . For evildoers there will be no helpers .






5.73 . They surely disbelieve who say : Lo! Allah is the third of three ; when there is no God save the One God . If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve .