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-Cp
03-06-2007, 04:22 PM
Why I Don't Go To Church Anymore!
By Wayne Jacobsen


Dear Fellow-believer,

I do appreciate your concern for me and your willingness to raise issues that have caused you concern. I know the way I relate to the church is a bit unconventional and some even call it dangerous. Believe me, I understand that concern because I used to think that way myself and even taught others to as well.

If you are happy with the status quo of organized religion today, you may not like what you read here. My purpose is not to convince you to see this incredible church the same way I do, but to answer your questions as openly and honestly as I can. Even if we don't end up agreeing, hopefully you will understand that our differences need not estrange us as members of Christ's body.

Where do you go to church?
I have never liked this question, even when I was able to answer it with a specific organization. I know what it means culturally, but it is based on a false premise--that church is something you can go to as in a specific event, location or organized group. I think Jesus looks at the church quite differently. He didn't talk about it as a place to go to, but a way of living in relationship to him and to other followers of his.

Asking me where I go to church is like asking me where I go to Jacobsen. How do I answer that? I am a Jacobsen and where I go a Jacobsen is. 'Church' is that kind of word. It doesn't identify a location or an institution. It describes a people and how they relate to each other. If we lose sight of that, our understanding of the church will be distorted and we'll miss out on much of its joy.

Are you just trying to avoid the question?
I know it may only sound like quibbling over words, but words are important. When we only ascribe the term 'church' to weekend gatherings or institutions that have organized themselves as 'churches' we miss out on what it means to live as Christ's body. It will give us a false sense of security to think that by attending a meeting once a week we are participating in God's church. Conversely I hear people talk about 'leaving the church' when they stop attending a specific congregation.

But if the church is something we are, not someplace we go, how can we leave it unless we abandon Christ himself? And if I think only of a specific congregation as my part of the church, haven't I separated myself from a host of other brothers and sisters that do not attend the same one I do?

The idea that those who gather on Sunday mornings to watch a praise concert and listen to a teaching are part of the church and those who do not, are not, would be foreign to Jesus. The issue is not where we are at a given time during the weekend, but how we are living in him and with other believers all week long.

But don't we need regular fellowship?
I wouldn't say we need it. If we were in a place where we couldn't find other believers, Jesus certainly would be able to take care of us. Thus, I'd phrase that a bit differently: Will people who are growing to know the Living God also desire real and meaningful connections with other believers? Absolutely! The call to the kingdom is not a call to isolation. Every person I've ever met who is thriving in the life of Jesus has a desire to share authentic fellowship with other believers. They realize that whatever they know of God's life is just in part, and only the fullest revelation of him is in the church.

But sometimes that kind of fellowship is not easy to find. Periodically on this journey we may go through times when we can't seem to find any other believers who share our hunger. That's especially true for those who find that conforming to the expectations of the religious institutions around them diminishes their relationship with Jesus. They may find themselves excluded by believers with whom they've shared close friendship. But no one going through that looks on that time as a treat. It is incredibly painful and they will look for other hungry believers to share the journey with.

My favorite expression of body life is where a local group of people chooses to walk together for a bit of the journey by cultivating close friendships and learning how to listen to God together.

Shouldn't we be committed to a local fellowship?
That has been said so often today, that most of us assume it is in the Bible somewhere. I haven't found it yet. Many of us have been led to believe that we can't possibly survive without the 'covering of the body' and will either fall into error or backslide into sin. But doesn't that happen inside our local congregations as well?

I know many people who live outside those structures and find not only an ever-deepening relationship with God, but also connections with other believers that run far deeper than they found in the institution. I haven't lost any of my passion for Jesus or my affection for his church. If anything those have grown by leaps and bounds in recent years.

Scripture does encourage us to be devoted to one another not committed to an institution. Jesus indicated that whenever two or three people get together focused on him, they would experience the vitality of church life.

Is it helpful to regularly participate in a local expression of that reality? Of course. But we make a huge mistake when we assume that fellowship takes place just because we attend the same event together, even regularly, or because we belong to the same organization. Fellowship happens where people share the journey of knowing Jesus together. It consists of open, honest sharing, genuine concern about each other's spiritual well being and encouragement for people to follow Jesus however he leads them.

But don't our institutions keep us from error?
I'm sorry to burst your bubble here, but every major heresy that has been inflicted on God's people for the last 2,000 years has come from organized groups with 'leaders' who thought they knew God's mind better than anyone around them. Conversely, virtually every move of God among people hungering for him was rejected by the 'church' of that day and were excluded, excommunicated or executed for following God.

If that is where you hope to find security, I'm afraid it is sorely misplaced. Jesus didn't tell us that 'going to church' would keep us safe, but that trusting him would. He gave us an anointing of the Spirit so that we would know the difference between truth and error. That anointing is cultivated as we learn his ways in his Word and grow closer to his heart. It will help you recognize when expressions of church you share life with becomes destructive to his work in you.

So are traditional congregations wrong?
Absolutely not! I have found many of them with people who love God and are seeking to grow in his ways. I visit a couple of dozen different congregations a year that I find are far more centered on relationship than religion. Jesus is at the center of their life together, and those who act as leaders are true servants and not playing politics of leadership, so that all are encouraged to minister to one another.

I pray that even more of them are renewed in a passion for Jesus, a genuine concern for each other and a willingness to serve the world with God's love. But I think we'd have to admit that these are rare in our communities and many only last for a short span before they unwittingly look to institutional answers for the needs of the body instead of remaining dependent on Jesus. When that happens do not feel condemned if God leads you not to go along with them.

So should I stop going to church, too?
I'm afraid that question also misses the point. You see I don't believe you're going to church any more than I am. We're just part of it. Be your part, however Jesus calls you to and wherever he places you. Not all of us grow in the same environment.

If you gather with a group of believers at a specific time and place and that participation helps you grow closer to Jesus and allows you to follow his work in you, by all means don't think you have to leave. Keep in mind, however, that of itself is not the church. It is just one of many expressions of it in the place where you live.

Don't be tricked into thinking that just because you attend its meetings you are experiencing real body life. That only comes as God connects you with a handful of brothers and sisters with whom you can build close friendships and share the real ups and downs of this journey.

That can happen among traditional congregations, as it can also happen beyond them. In the last seven years I've meet hundreds if not thousands of people who have grown disillusioned with traditional congregations and are thriving spiritually as they share God's life with others, mostly in their homes.

Then meeting in homes is the answer?
Of course not. But let's be clear: as fun as it is to enjoy large group worship and even be instructed by gifted teachers, the real joy of body life can't be shared in huge groups. The church for its first 300 years found the home the perfect place to gather. They are much more suited to the dynamics of family which is how Jesus described his body.

But meeting in homes is no cure-all. I've been to some very sick home meetings and met in facilities with groups who shared an authentic body life together. But the time I spend in regular body life I want to spend face to face with a group of people. I know it isn't popular today where people find it is far easier to sit through a finely-tuned (or not so finely-tuned) service and go home without ever having to open up our life or care about another person's journey.

But ultimately what matters most to me is not where or how they meet, but whether or not people are focused on Jesus and really helping each other on the journey to becoming like him. Meetings are less the issue here than the quality of relationships. I am always looking for people like that wherever I am and always rejoice when I find it. In our new home in Oxnard, we've found a few folks and are hopeful to find even more.

Aren't you just reacting out of hurt?
I suppose that is possible and time will tell, I guess, but I honestly don't believe so. Anyone who is engaged in real body life will get hurt at times. But there are two kinds of hurt. There's the kind of pain that points to a problem that can be fixed with the right care—such as a badly sprained ankle. Then there's the kind of pain that can only be fixed by pulling away—as when you put your hand on a hot stove.

Perhaps all of us have experienced some measure of pain as we have tried to fit God's life into institutions. For a long time most of us hung in there hoping if we tweaked a few things it would get better. Though we could be successful in limited ways during moments of renewal, we also discovered that eventually the conformity an institution demands and the freedom people need to grow in Christ are at odds with one another. It has happened with virtually every group formed throughout the history of Christianity.

Are you looking for the perfect church?
No, and I don't anticipate finding one this side of eternity. Perfection is not my goal, but finding people with God's priorities. It's one thing for people to struggle toward an ideal they share together. It's another to realize that our ideals have little in common.

I make no secret of the fact that I am deeply troubled by the state of organized Christianity. Most of what we call 'church' today are nothing more than well-planned performances with little actual connection between believers. Believers are encouraged toward a growing dependency on the system or its leadership rather than on Jesus himself. We spend more energy conforming behavior to what the institution needs rather than helping people be transformed at the foot of the cross!

I'm tired of trying to fellowship with people who only view church as a two-hour a week dumping ground for guilt while they live the rest of the week with the same priorities as the world. I'm tired of those who depend on their own works of righteousness but who have no compassion for the people of the world. I'm tired of insecure people using the Body of Christ as an extension of their own ego and will manipulate it to satisfy their own needs. I'm tired of sermons more filled with the bondage of religion than the freedom of God's love and where relationships take a back seat to the demands of an efficient institution.

But don't our children need church activities?
I'd suggest that what they need most is to be integrated into God's life through relational fellowship with other believers. 92% of children who grow up in Sunday schools with all the puppets and high-powered entertainment, leave 'church' when they leave their parents' home? Instead of filling our children with ethics and rules we need to demonstrate how to live in God's life together.

Even sociologists tell us that the #1 factor in determining whether a child will thrive in society is if they have deep, personal friendships with nonrelative adults. No Sunday school can fill that role. I know of one community in Australia who after 20 years of sharing God's life together as families could say that they had not lost one child to the faith as they grew into adulthood. I know I cut across the grain here, but it is far more important that our children experience real fellowship among believers rather than the bells and whistles of a slick children's program.

What dynamics of body life do you look for?
I'm always looking for a people who are seeking to follow the Living Christ. He is at the center of their lives, their affections and their conversation. They look to be authentic and free others to hurt when they hurt, to question what they question and to follow his voice without others accusing them of being divisive or rebellious. I look for people who are not wasting their money on extravagant buildings or flashy programs; where people sitting next to each other are not strangers; and where they all participate as a priesthood to God instead of watch passively from a safe distance.

Aren't you giving people an excuse to sit home and do nothing?
I hope not, though I know it is a danger. I realize some people who leave traditional congregations end up abusing that freedom to satisfy their own desires and thus miss out on church life altogether. Neither am I a fan of 'church hoppers', who whip around to one place after another looking for the latest fad or the best opportunity to fulfill their own selfish desires.

But most of the people I meet and talk with are not outside the system because they have lost their passion for Jesus or his people, but only because the traditional congregations near them couldn't satisfy their hunger for relationship. They are seeking authentic expressions of body life and pay an incredible cost to seek it out. Believe me, we would all find it easier just to go with the flow, but once you've tasted of living fellowship between passionate believers, it is impossible to settle for anything less.

Isn't this view of church divisive?
Not of itself. People make it divisive when they demand that people conform to their revelation of truth. Most of us on the journey are accused of being divisive because freedom can be threatening to those who find their security in a religious system. But must of us aren't trying to recruit others to leave their congregations. We see the body of Christ big enough to encompass God's people however he calls them to gather.

One of the things often said about traditional church is that Sunday morning is the most segregated hour in American culture. We only meet with people who look like we do and like things the way we do. I've found now that I have far more opportunity to get with people from a broader cross-section of his body. I don't demand others do it my way and I hope in time that those who see it differently will stop demanding we conform to theirs.


Where can I find that kind of fellowship?
There's no easy answer here. It might be right in front of you among the fellowship you're already in. It might be down the street in your neighborhood or across a cubicle at work. You can also get involved in compassionate outreaches to the needy and broken in your locality as a way to live out his life in you and meet others with a similar hunger.

Don't expect this kind of fellowship to fall easily into an organization. It is organic, and Jesus can lead you to it right where you are. Look for him to put a dozen or so folks around your life with whom you can share the journey. They may not even all go to the same congregation you do. They might be neighbors or coworkers who are following after God. Wouldn't that kind of interconnection among God's people yield some incredible fruit?

Don't expect it to be easy or run smoothly. It will take some specific choices on our part to be obedient to Jesus. It may take some training to shake off old habits and be free to let him build his community around you, but it is all worth it. I know it bothers some people that I don't take my regular place in a pew on Sunday morning, but I can tell you absolutely that my worst days outside organized religion are still better than my best days inside it. To me the difference is like listening to someone talk about golf or actually taking a set of clubs out to a course and playing golf. Being his church is like that. In our day we don't need more talk about the church, but people who are simply ready to live in its reality.

People all over the world are freshly discovering how to do that again. You can be one of them as you let him place you in his body as he desires.


http://lifestream.org/LSBL.May01.html

5stringJeff
03-06-2007, 04:40 PM
Random thoughts on the article:

I'd say the title of the article is a bit misleading. It's not that he doesn't attend church services any more, it's that he attends church services in people's homes.

Home churches are an interesting concept, and I have nothing against them in principle. Of course, a home church, just like any other church, relies on good leadership, which is hopefully biblically established (see passages in 1/2 Timothy and Titus dealing with elders and deacons) to ensure proper teaching.

The article itself seems to be written from a standpoint of love, and the author bemoans 'church-as-entertainment' rather than church services in general. I think that's a good thing for all churches to hear, although the home-church solution is only one possible solution to that problem. It may also be possible to reform the programs of the church to be less 'entertaining' and more 'spiritually fulfilling.'

Abbey Marie
03-06-2007, 05:06 PM
Interesting piece, and a subject I often struggle with.

As for this point:
The church for its first 300 years found the home the perfect place to gather it may be attributable to fear of Christian persecution, as much as any other reason.;)

Church buildings are made up of fallible humans, so it is inevitable that we will be let down sooner or later by someone at church. We eventually left a church we had loved and attended for about 12 years because we felt things weren't quite right, and looked around and found for a new one. Now my practice is to go to church with the single conscious goal of actively worshipping God. It sounds absurdly simple, but I think that point gets lost in all the "business" of church, and then we wonder what's wrong. I no longer get involved in committees, or worry about who is doing what. And at least for now, I am happier for it.

Nienna
03-06-2007, 06:43 PM
I think what he says is pretty true, but I think he is downplaying the role of the Body. We are absolutely not meant to "go it alone." That's why we are a BODY. Not that I think he is suggesting this, but if we stay away from other members, we slide. It's just a fact.

And...
Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. (Hebrews 10:23-25)

I think it is very important to meet regularly. While I have yet to attend the perfect church, and have a LOT of unrest about my current church situation, I still think the discipline of meeting regularly with other believers is extremely important.

Also, I think just the act of going regularly shows the kids how committed we are to our faith.

-Cp
03-07-2007, 12:33 PM
I think what he says is pretty true, but I think he is downplaying the role of the Body. We are absolutely not meant to "go it alone." That's why we are a BODY. Not that I think he is suggesting this, but if we stay away from other members, we slide. It's just a fact.

And...
Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. (Hebrews 10:23-25)

I think it is very important to meet regularly. While I have yet to attend the perfect church, and have a LOT of unrest about my current church situation, I still think the discipline of meeting regularly with other believers is extremely important.

Also, I think just the act of going regularly shows the kids how committed we are to our faith.

I disagree with your assessment here... I didn't read anywhere where he said to forsake getting together with other Christians..

Additionally, our kids will NOT know our commitment by our faith by dragging them to a particular building once a week. However, they'll undoubtably know our commitment to our Lord by our actions throughout the week - i.e. do they see us praying, reading the Bible and more importantly acting "Christ Like"?

As the gentlemen pointed out so well in this article - many kids go to church their entire home-life only to stop going to church once they leave home..

Nienna
03-07-2007, 01:00 PM
I disagree with your assessment here... I didn't read anywhere where he said to forsake getting together with other Christians..

Additionally, our kids will NOT know our commitment by our faith by dragging them to a particular building once a week. However, they'll undoubtably know our commitment to our Lord by our actions throughout the week - i.e. do they see us praying, reading the Bible and more importantly acting "Christ Like"?

As the gentlemen pointed out so well in this article - many kids go to church their entire home-life only to stop going to church once they leave home..

right... BUT how many kids who DON'T go to church every week START going when out on their own?

The Christian faith takes discipline. Not to say we have to be legalistic about attending church services EVERY SINGLE week, and I am actually going through a struggle about this, now, because, in the church I have been attending, the leadership is failing to submit itself FULLY to God's will. And actually, in some cases, arguing that this is not necessary. I am too weak; I need to be around people who understand the need to DIE to self, not around people who tell me my sins aren't really that bad.

This is the key passage in this article, IMO:

Aren't you giving people an excuse to sit home and do nothing?
I hope not, though I know it is a danger. I realize some people who leave traditional congregations end up abusing that freedom to satisfy their own desires and thus miss out on church life altogether. Neither am I a fan of 'church hoppers', who whip around to one place after another looking for the latest fad or the best opportunity to fulfill their own selfish desires.

But most of the people I meet and talk with are not outside the system because they have lost their passion for Jesus or his people, but only because the traditional congregations near them couldn't satisfy their hunger for relationship. They are seeking authentic expressions of body life and pay an incredible cost to seek it out. Believe me, we would all find it easier just to go with the flow, but once you've tasted of living fellowship between passionate believers, it is impossible to settle for anything less.

Believers need to be absolutely honest with themselves about their motives for not attending church regularly. And I would still say that, unless we are in REGULAR contact with some of the same members of the Body, we cannot grow relationships with them, and we cannot understand our function in the Body.

-Cp
03-07-2007, 01:18 PM
right... BUT how many kids who DON'T go to church every week START going when out on their own?

Lots! I know of a lot of adults who came to Christ and now attend a church.


The Christian faith takes discipline. Not to say we have to be legalistic about attending church services EVERY SINGLE week, and I am actually going through a struggle about this, now, because, in the church I have been attending, the leadership is failing to submit itself FULLY to God's will. And actually, in some cases, arguing that this is not necessary. I am too weak; I need to be around people who understand the need to DIE to self, not around people who tell me my sins aren't really that bad.

Ever heard the expression "Going to Church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a McDonalds' makes you a hamburger"? (R.I.P. Keith Green).


This is the key passage in this article, IMO:


Believers need to be absolutely honest with themselves about their motives for not attending church regularly. And I would still say that, unless we are in REGULAR contact with some of the same members of the Body, we cannot grow relationships with them, and we cannot understand our function in the Body.


I too agree that folks need to be honest as to why they go to Church but I'm afraid many simply go out of a sense of "duty" and self-engrandizement. Addtionally, how many people do you think most Christians really "connect with" at any given church outside of seeing them on Sunday's? It's sad, I know, but the "church" in America is not the "Church" that Christ talks about..

Nienna
03-07-2007, 01:29 PM
I too agree that folks need to be honest as to why they go to Church but I'm afraid many simply go out of a sense of "duty" and self-engrandizement. Addtionally, how many people do you think most Christians really "connect with" at any given church outside of seeing them on Sunday's? It's sad, I know, but the "church" in America is not the "Church" that Christ talks about..

I just don't think the solution is to stop meeting regularly with fellow believers.

5stringJeff
03-07-2007, 03:10 PM
I too agree that folks need to be honest as to why they go to Church but I'm afraid many simply go out of a sense of "duty" and self-engrandizement. Addtionally, how many people do you think most Christians really "connect with" at any given church outside of seeing them on Sunday's? It's sad, I know, but the "church" in America is not the "Church" that Christ talks about..

So, will the American church be made stronger by people leaving to form home churches? Or will they just be weakened further? Again, I have nothing against home churches (I've known a few people who attended them and they all seemed to be strong in their faith), but how will the millions of American Christians in churches today improve their walk with Christ if all the 'strong' Christians join home churches?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that home churches, just like "normal" churches, are not a one-size-fits-all solution.

And Josie, just so you know, Duane's not advocating that Christians not meet at all, just that they meet for fellowship/worship/teaching at a home instead of a church building.

Nienna
03-07-2007, 03:25 PM
So, will the American church be made stronger by people leaving to form home churches? Or will they just be weakened further? Again, I have nothing against home churches (I've known a few people who attended them and they all seemed to be strong in their faith), but how will the millions of American Christians in churches today improve their walk with Christ if all the 'strong' Christians join home churches?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that home churches, just like "normal" churches, are not a one-size-fits-all solution.

And Josie, just so you know, Duane's not advocating that Christians not meet at all, just that they meet for fellowship/worship/teaching at a home instead of a church building.

Thanks, Jeff... This is really good stuff to think about, especially in my current situation. I am thinking about joining a church based in TN that webcasts its services. They have elders all over the country, and I actually meet with a home group, too, that is not under that TN church. My main concern is for my kids, though. That is why we still attend regular services on Sunday. I think it is a good discipline for them, and gives them Christian contacts outside the family, kids they see at school or on the soccer fields, peers that share their faith.

-Cp
03-07-2007, 04:19 PM
So, will the American church be made stronger by people leaving to form home churches? Or will they just be weakened further? Again, I have nothing against home churches (I've known a few people who attended them and they all seemed to be strong in their faith), but how will the millions of American Christians in churches today improve their walk with Christ if all the 'strong' Christians join home churches?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that home churches, just like "normal" churches, are not a one-size-fits-all solution.

And Josie, just so you know, Duane's not advocating that Christians not meet at all, just that they meet for fellowship/worship/teaching at a home instead of a church building.

I suppose more to the point - I'm pointing out that the church at large in America has failed in many areas mainly due to the fact that most "christians" depend on it like a recovering drunk in a 12-step or a glorified social club.

Rather than live like Christ everyday they go to a service once a week and expect that to work miracles somehow...

Abbey Marie
03-07-2007, 05:11 PM
I suppose more to the point - I'm pointing out that the church at large in America has failed in many areas mainly due to the fact that most "christians" depend on it like a recovering drunk in a 12-step or a glorified social club.

Rather than live like Christ everyday they go to a service once a week and expect that to work miracles somehow...

Sometimes they don't even expect it to work miracles. They just go, to go.
I have an elderly relative who has attended a main-line Christian church every Sunday since he was a young man. He doesn't believe the Bible. He doesn't even believe in the resurrection, yet helps to erect a large cross at the church every Easter. I doubt he is the only person like this. There are people who just go to church because it is Sunday and "that's what you do".

Dilloduck
03-07-2007, 05:15 PM
I suppose more to the point - I'm pointing out that the church at large in America has failed in many areas mainly due to the fact that most "christians" depend on it like a recovering drunk in a 12-step or a glorified social club.

Rather than live like Christ everyday they go to a service once a week and expect that to work miracles somehow...

I think the truth is that there are varying degrees that Christians (and other religions for that matter) are willing to commit themselves to and others feel "commanded" to commit more than others. Attending a physical building of worship just happens to be one of those degrees.

gabosaurus
03-07-2007, 09:40 PM
Christianity is an individual belief. What one person believes should not govern what another person believes.
One person may find comfort and solace in a large congregation that meets several times per week. Another may find the same comfort and solace through individual prayer and meditation.
God speaks to different people in different ways.

Gunny
03-07-2007, 10:08 PM
Christianity is an individual belief. What one person believes should not govern what another person believes.
One person may find comfort and solace in a large congregation that meets several times per week. Another may find the same comfort and solace through individual prayer and meditation.
God speaks to different people in different ways.

Christianity is hardly an individual belief. A Chrsitian's personal relationship with God through Christ is individual. Two different things.

-Cp
03-07-2007, 10:40 PM
God speaks to different people in different ways.

Hardly true - he speaks to all of us through his written word, the Bible..

gabosaurus
03-07-2007, 10:43 PM
The Bible was not written in the time of Jesus. It is a book of recollections authored nearly 300 years later. That is why the Bible is interpreted so many different ways.
God speaks to all of us in different ways. That is how different people are drawn to Him.

Hobbit
03-07-2007, 10:59 PM
The Bible was not written in the time of Jesus. It is a book of recollections authored nearly 300 years later. That is why the Bible is interpreted so many different ways.
God speaks to all of us in different ways. That is how different people are drawn to Him.

Hippie bullcrap. The Bible was written near the time of Jesus. The '300 years later' bullcrap was when the church was finally able to operate openly and compiled those works into a single volume. The reason it's 'interpreted differently' is because a) linguistics is hard, and there's not always a direct translation and b) people will always try to take quotes out of context in order to justify their own lifestyles and behavior, such as chauvanists overquoting 'wives submit to your husbands.'

The second you start this crap about how 'the Bible is whatever you want it to be,' is the second you devalue the religion.

-Cp
03-07-2007, 11:37 PM
The Bible was not written in the time of Jesus. It is a book of recollections authored nearly 300 years later. That is why the Bible is interpreted so many different ways.
God speaks to all of us in different ways. That is how different people are drawn to Him.

Uhh... ya may want to know what you're talking about next time before ya reveal how ignorant you really are..

HOW THE HECK could Matthew Mark Luke and John write 300 years after they were dead? And how could Moses write his after the death of Christ when he was around close to 1000 years before Christ?


"dee dee dee's are in the house!!"...

May wanna lay off the bong..

Mr. P
03-07-2007, 11:56 PM
Hardly true - he speaks to all of us through his written word, the Bible..

I guess that leaves out the illiterate, or those who have never seen a Bible then, huh?

Hobbit
03-08-2007, 12:21 AM
I guess that leaves out the illiterate, or those who have never seen a Bible then, huh?

For them, there's TV, TV and night school. The Bible is one of the most commony used language textbooks in third world countries worldwide, simply because you can get them for free.

manu1959
03-08-2007, 01:03 AM
The Bible was not written in the time of Jesus. It is a book of recollections authored nearly 300 years later. That is why the Bible is interpreted so many different ways.
God speaks to all of us in different ways. That is how different people are drawn to Him.

couple of things....when or who wrote the "word of god" makes it no less powerfull as god spoke to the people who wrote it.

as for interpretation....people interpret things....i am sure you read the constitution and interpret it to mean you have a "right" to a free education, free health care and an abortion....i read it and can not find that anywhere.

lastly god is not a "him".... i do not belive a man would go to this much trouble :poke:

-Cp
03-08-2007, 01:52 AM
I guess that leaves out the illiterate, or those who have never seen a Bible then, huh?

How?

gabosaurus
03-08-2007, 10:37 AM
when or who wrote the "word of god" makes it no less powerfull as god spoke to the people who wrote it.

Exactly my point. God speaks to those who will listen. He speaks to them in ways they will understand.

Dilloduck
03-08-2007, 10:41 AM
when or who wrote the "word of god" makes it no less powerfull as god spoke to the people who wrote it.

Exactly my point. God speaks to those who will listen. He speaks to them in ways they will understand.

And in ways they don't understand---yet.

gabosaurus
03-08-2007, 10:48 AM
And in ways they don't understand---yet.

Good point. Another reason why I worship Dillo. :cheers2:

Dilloduck
03-08-2007, 10:54 AM
Good point. Another reason why I worship Dillo. :cheers2:

I TOLD you not to spill those beans !!!:lol:

GW in Ohio
03-08-2007, 12:47 PM
Why I don't go to church.....


It's irrelevant to my life.
It's boring.
I have better things to do with my time on Sunday morning.
I don't subscribe to the Christian worldview.


But I'm broadminded enough to recognize that Christianity does work for some people. So for those who are empowered by Christianity, I say, go for it.

Could I ask a question of the adherents of Christianity?

Do you think you're going to that mythical place the Christians call heaven? If so, why do you think you merit a trip up there?

What do you think would cause a person to go to hell? Do you think because someone doesn't buy into Christianity, that's enough to send them to the hot place?

Nienna
03-08-2007, 12:56 PM
Could I ask a question of the adherents of Christianity?

Do you think you're going to that mythical place the Christians call heaven? If so, why do you think you merit a trip up there?

What do you think would cause a person to go to hell? Do you think because someone doesn't buy into Christianity, that's enough to send them to the hot place?

Good question! And I have an answer that will surely be unpopular, but I believe it to be true. I have the hope of going to Heaven. I don't "merit a trip up there," but God had mercy on me, because #1) I believe in Him, His Son, and their authority, and #2) I truly TRY to live in obedience to His will above my own.

I believe that if a person does not believe in Yahweh as God, does not believe in Jesus' sacrifice for our sins, he will go to Hell. I also believe that a person can know these things, accept them to be true, yet still go to Hell if he refuses to submit his will to God's will.

GW in Ohio
03-08-2007, 01:09 PM
That's a good answer about you and heaven.

So you apparently believe I'm going to hell.

Perhaps you're right, but I have it on good authority that, contrary to popular belief, the accommodations are in fact excellent down there, the entertainment is first rate, and the wine list is unmatched.

So when you're flying around up there in heaven, playing your harp, think about paying a visit to your friends in hell.

But give a little notice so we can visit the supermarket first.....

Hobbit
03-08-2007, 01:12 PM
I, too, shall weigh in.

Sinning is what sends you to Hell. Everyone sins. There's no getting around it. There's even a Bible verse in Romans that says, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." It doesn't matter how big or how small, I've sinned, you've sinned, and even your saint of a grandmother has sinned. There's really no way around it. We are all imperfect human beings and will, thus, sin from time to time. That being said, there's a way to get a 'free pass.' Jesus was more than human and was able to make it his whole life without sinning. When he died, he took the sins of the world upon him, and the sin died with him. According to old Catholic doctrine, Jesus, dieing with sin upon him, went into Hell. The line "descended into Hell" was originally a part of the apostle's creed, but has since been ommitted by most sources. However, Jesus was innocent of all sin, so Hell held no power over him, and he siezed control of death and the grave from Satan, then returned to Earth for a final farewell before ascending into Heaven.

Side note: The ressurrection of Jesus is at least as important as his death. Jesus' ressurrection proves that his mission was accomplished and that he is the son of God.

Anyway, with Jesus causing our sin to die with him, we are no longer burdened by the unescapable corruption of sin. However, when God created us, he gave us free choice, a gift that he will never take back. Therefore, we could not be forced to accept Jesus' gift to all of us in the form of salvation. The way you get into Heaven is to voluntarily and sincerely ask Jesus himself for forgiveness. It's that easy.

A common fallacy projected by those who seek to undermine Christianity is that Christians think they're perfect and they'll make you do so, as well. On the other hand, Christians realize how imperfect they truly are and will accept people as they are, sin and all, though Christians also realize the corrupting power of sin and actively discourage it. Another fallacy is that Christianity is just supposed to be some set of principles that 'work for that person.' That is false. Christianity contains a set of principles, but is so much more. To limit Christianity to the set of principles that Christians try to live by would be the same as limiting the Declaration of Independance to a simple legal declaration of war.


Perhaps you're right, but I have it on good authority that, contrary to popular belief, the accommodations are in fact excellent down there, the entertainment is first rate, and the wine list is unmatched.

Somehow, I doubt it.

Nienna
03-08-2007, 01:24 PM
That's a good answer about you and heaven.

So you apparently believe I'm going to hell.

Perhaps you're right, but I have it on good authority that, contrary to popular belief, the accommodations are in fact excellent down there, the entertainment is first rate, and the wine list is unmatched.

So when you're flying around up there in heaven, playing your harp, think about paying a visit to your friends in hell.

But give a little notice so we can visit the supermarket first.....

I don't know if YOU are going to Hell or not. I hope you don't. :) All I know is what it takes to get to Heaven. Being in love with the Abba (NO! NOT the band! ;) ).

Dilloduck
03-08-2007, 02:51 PM
I don't know if YOU are going to Hell or not. I hope you don't. :) All I know is what it takes to get to Heaven. Being in love with the Abba (NO! NOT the band! ;) ).

WHAT !!!!!!!!! Singing Dancing Queen all day doesn't cut it ??

Nienna
03-08-2007, 02:52 PM
WHAT !!!!!!!!! Singing Dancing Queen all day doesn't cut it ??

Ask the Big Guy & see what He says. :)

GW in Ohio
03-08-2007, 02:52 PM
Hobbit: I'm a good husband, a good parent, a good neighbor and a good citizen. I've gotten rid of whatever bad habits and vices I had.

I try to help others every day and make the world a better place.

And I say, fuck any doctrine that says I'm going to hell.

There is no "hell," in the sense of a place of eternal torment, anyway.

Make no mistake, we pay for our sins....every one of 'em. But the Christian cosmology of heaven and hell, with Jesus coming to open the ledger book and judge you is a fairy tale, in my opinion.

But if it works for you, I'm okay with that.

5stringJeff
03-08-2007, 02:55 PM
Could I ask a question of the adherents of Christianity?

Do you think you're going to that mythical place the Christians call heaven? If so, why do you think you merit a trip up there?

What do you think would cause a person to go to hell? Do you think because someone doesn't buy into Christianity, that's enough to send them to the hot place?

Yes, I believe I am going to heaven, but not for any of my own merits. I believe that my justification (i.e. loss of guilt for sin) is 100% the working of God, coming through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Conversely, I believe that those who do not choose to accept Jesus Christ will be denied entry into heaven, and will therefore be destined to hell.

Dilloduck
03-08-2007, 03:02 PM
Yes, I believe I am going to heaven, but not for any of my own merits. I believe that my justification (i.e. loss of guilt for sin) is 100% the working of God, coming through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Conversely, I believe that those who do not choose to accept Jesus Christ will be denied entry into heaven, and will therefore be destined to hell.

Is it possible for humans to determine who has accepted Jesus as thier saviour ?

GW in Ohio
03-08-2007, 03:02 PM
Damn, Jeff.....

That's pretty harsh, dude....

Abbey Marie
03-08-2007, 03:03 PM
couple of things....when or who wrote the "word of god" makes it no less powerfull as god spoke to the people who wrote it.

as for interpretation....people interpret things....i am sure you read the constitution and interpret it to mean you have a "right" to a free education, free health care and an abortion....i read it and can not find that anywhere.

lastly god is not a "him".... i do not belive a man would go to this much trouble :poke:

Lordy! That's a fine post. :clap:

Nienna
03-08-2007, 03:04 PM
Is it possible for humans to determine who has accepted Jesus as thier saviour ?

I think so, by their behavior, especially their love for others, as well as their confession. But it isn't possible for humans to determine another human's final destination.

Abbey Marie
03-08-2007, 03:05 PM
I TOLD you not to spill those beans !!!:lol:

:poke:

Nienna
03-08-2007, 03:07 PM
:poke:

Dillo is the antiChrist. ;)

Dilloduck
03-08-2007, 03:07 PM
I think so, by their behavior, especially their love for others, as well as their confession. But it isn't possible for humans to determine another human's final destination.

Confessions of sins ?

Dilloduck
03-08-2007, 03:08 PM
Dillo is the antiChrist. ;)

ok you 2---stop it ~!~~~~:laugh2:

Nienna
03-08-2007, 03:09 PM
Confessions of sins ?

confession that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD! :D

Nienna
03-08-2007, 03:10 PM
ok you 2---stop it ~!~~~~:laugh2:

Dillo, give it up... we found you out!
http://www.cegenglish.com/

Dilloduck
03-08-2007, 03:10 PM
confession that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD! :D

Why would that be considered as a confession and not a proclaimation ?

Dilloduck
03-08-2007, 03:11 PM
Dillo, give it up... we found you out!
http://www.cegenglish.com/

I aint no Mexican !!!!

Nienna
03-08-2007, 03:12 PM
Why would that be considered as a confession and not a proclaimation ?

Just Christianese, I guess... the Bible verse says that "every knee will bow and every tongue CONFESS that Jesus Christ is Lord!"

Dilloduck
03-08-2007, 03:14 PM
Just Christianese, I guess... the Bible verse says that "every knee will bow and every tongue CONFESS that Jesus Christ is Lord!"

I'll buy that--Christianese is a bit confusing.

Nienna
03-08-2007, 03:14 PM
Actually, I got that a little bit wrong... It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' " (Romans 14:11)

Dilloduck
03-08-2007, 03:16 PM
Actually, I got that a little bit wrong... It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' " (Romans 14:11)

See---I TOLD ya it ws confusing !!

Nienna
03-08-2007, 03:17 PM
See---I TOLD ya it ws confusing !!

lol! :)

Dilloduck
03-08-2007, 03:20 PM
I think so, by their behavior, especially their love for others, as well as their confession. But it isn't possible for humans to determine another human's final destination.

So humans can only guess about anothers' "final destination" ?

5stringJeff
03-08-2007, 03:21 PM
Is it possible for humans to determine who has accepted Jesus as thier saviour ?

Well, given that Christians are called to make disciples, there's typically some type of public confession. But other than that, no, there's no way you could tell by, say, looking at someone whether they have or not.

5stringJeff
03-08-2007, 03:24 PM
Damn, Jeff.....

That's pretty harsh, dude....

I believe what the Bible teaches, and what Jesus Himself said: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." (John 3:16-18)

Dilloduck
03-08-2007, 03:28 PM
Well, given that Christians are called to make disciples, there's typically some type of public confession. But other than that, no, there's no way you could tell by, say, looking at someone whether they have or not.

One continually hears that Christians are hypocrites ( the log in the eye thing) for judging others and condemning others to hell. I don't notice this much except from some of the more radical preachers. Is this just some handy way to dismiss Christianity?

Dilloduck
03-08-2007, 03:30 PM
I believe what the Bible teaches, and what Jesus Himself said: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." (John 3:16-18)

Already ? I don't get it.

5stringJeff
03-08-2007, 03:41 PM
One continually hears that Christians are hypocrites ( the log in the eye thing) for judging others and condemning others to hell. I don't notice this much except from some of the more radical preachers. Is this just some handy way to dismiss Christianity?

I think that most people can't deal with Christians talking about people going to hell, thinking that the Christian is judging that person to hell, when instead the Christian is only pointing out God's judgment on the unrepentant.

Dilloduck
03-08-2007, 03:47 PM
I think that most people can't deal with Christians talking about people going to hell, thinking that the Christian is judging that person to hell, when instead the Christian is only pointing out God's judgment on the unrepentant.

I'm not really sure why Chritians are obsessed about hell either. I guess they take it personally and are offended by what they feel to be an uppity attitude?

Nienna
03-08-2007, 03:59 PM
So humans can only guess about anothers' "final destination" ?

If they want to. I prefer to just introduce Jesus, and they can take their own relationship with Him from there. :)

Dilloduck
03-08-2007, 04:06 PM
If they want to. I prefer to just introduce Jesus, and they can take their own relationship with Him from there. :)

see you are a fisherman !!!! :laugh2:

gabosaurus
03-08-2007, 07:13 PM
The ideal way to convey your beliefs is to introduce people to the teachings of Jesus.
I prefer that to those who want to shove their religious values and beliefs down your throat.

Dilloduck
03-08-2007, 07:25 PM
The ideal way to convey your beliefs is to introduce people to the teachings of Jesus.
I prefer that to those who want to shove their religious values and beliefs down your throat.

Oh shit Jiullian-----er Gabby---get some new mantra to throw around. No one wants to shove religion down your throat.