Abortion or Genocide, Which Has Killed More?

[crin63]

Take a look at these numbers from genocides. The numbers are the average taken from the estimated highs and lows on Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_toll

Which would you think has killed more, genocide worldwide or abortions in the U.S.A.?

1. Genocides of Nazi Germany 13,600,000

2. Holodomor famine - Soviet Union 6,500,000

3. Famine, political repression - Cambodia 2,300,000

4. 1971 Bangladesh atrocities East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) 1,513,000

5. Armenian genocide - Turkey 850,000

6. Rwandan genocide 1,950,000

7. Ustashe massacres of Serbs, Jews, Roma - Balkans 527,500

8. Nanking Massacre - Nanking 200,000

9. Depopulation of Australian aborigines - Australia 225,000

10. Darfur conflict - Sudan 300,000

11. Massacres of Mayan Indians - Guatemala 215,000

12. Revolt in the Vendée - France 308,500

13. Political repression of East Timorese - East Timor 225,000

14. Political repression of West Papuans - Indonesia 200,000

15. Al-Anfal Campaign - Iraq 150,000

16. Massacres of Hutus - Burundi 75,000

17. Massacres of Tutsis - Burundi 50,000

18. Herero and Namaqua genocide - Namibia 70,000

19. Srebenica massacre - Srebenica 8,000

Genocide Total 29,267,000

Abortion Total (America alone) 48,589,993 http://www.nrlc.org/ABORTION/facts/abortionstats.html

God help us as a nation!

[manu1959]

and the really sick part....both were deemed legal by the side doing the killing....

[Psychoblues]

Sickening, absolutely sickening!!!!!!!!!!! The exploitation is astouding if not criminal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dilloduck]

I found it interesting how communist China managed to stay off the list. I guess killing your own kind doesn't count ?

[Psychoblues]

Maybe China doesn't include itself in that kind of exploitation, dd?



I found it interesting how communist China managed to stay off the list. I guess killing your own kind doesn't count ?

That's more of your kind of thing, isn't it?

[My Winter Storm]

Genocide involves the killing of born people. Abortion does not, therefore this is irrelevant.

[Dilloduck]

Maybe China doesn't include itself in that kind of exploitation, dd?




That's more of your kind of thing, isn't it?

Communist China didn't "exploit" it's own ??? Time to put the bottle down, bro. :laugh2:

[Psychoblues]

It's your conversation, shithead.



Communist China didn't "exploit" it's own ??? Time to put the bottle down, bro. :laugh2:

Did you forget the subject?

[Dilloduck]

It's your conversation, shithead.




Did you forget the subject?

uh-- no---
Abortion or Genocide, Which Has Killed More?

[crin63]

Genocide involves the killing of born people. Abortion does not, therefore this is irrelevant.

Life is life, born or not.

I think our Founding Fathers would have contended that everyone has the right to life.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

[Psychoblues]

Our conversation as a subtext related to the more mundane subject of exploitation. Do you intend to exploit it further to make a point that simply cannot be made?



uh-- no---
Abortion or Genocide, Which Has Killed More?

I thought so.

[My Winter Storm]

Life is life, born or not.

A fetus is a potential life, not a complete life. Using potential life, genocide has killed more.
If we count that potential life as a life the same as ours, then abortion has killed more.

The two have nothing to do with each other though, but I'm trying to see it from your point of view.

[manu1959]

A fetus is a potential life, not a complete life. Using potential life, genocide has killed more.
If we count that potential life as a life the same as ours, then abortion has killed more.

The two have nothing to do with each other though, but I'm trying to see it from your point of view.

a fetus is a living thing.....it has just as much right to live as any other living thing......

[Dilloduck]

Our conversation as a subtext related to the more mundane subject of exploitation. Do you intend to exploit it further to make a point that simply cannot be made?




I thought so.

You're right--I should stop exploiting you --sorry.

[My Winter Storm]

a fetus is a living thing.....it has just as much right to live as any other living thing......

It's not living in the way you or I am, though.

[Psychoblues]

I accept your consession, meager and ignorant as it is, as at least sincere.



You're right--I should stop exploiting you --sorry.

You lost, I won!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dilloduck]

I accept your consession, meager and ignorant as it is, as at least sincere.




You lost, I won!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Marty will be so proud of you !!!! You da man, bro !!! :laugh2:

[Psychoblues]

Understandably, you completely misunderstood, dd.



Marty will be so proud of you !!!! You da man, bro !!! :laugh2:

I hope your family is proud of you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[manu1959]

It's not living in the way you or I am, though.

baby harp seals are not alive the way you and i are.....a fetus is alive none the less.....same as any other thing that is alive......libs care more about trees more than fetus.....

[Psychoblues]

So what if you want to club baby seals to death for the purpose of profit, m'59. I simply disagree with your argument and your lack of compassion. Are you happy, now?

[manu1959]

So what if you want to club baby seals to death for the purpose of profit, m'59. I simply disagree with your argument and your lack of compassion. Are you happy, now?

people kill fetus for profit.......my ability to argue a point and my compasion are not linked.....

[Psychoblues]

Cut the drama, troll queen.



people kill fetus for profit.......my ability to argue a point and my compasion are not linked.....

And get to the point.

[PostmodernProphet]

It's not living in the way you or I am, though.

in every way that one can be "alive", a fetus is alive.....

[Missileman]

in every way that one can be "alive", a fetus is alive.....

Not until it the brain develops IMO.

[glockmail]

Not until it the brain develops IMO. Then by your definition you are not alive, IMO. :laugh2:

[JohnDoe]

Life is life, born or not.

I think our Founding Fathers would have contended that everyone has the right to life.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Actually, they may have contended that everyone born, has a right to their life....

At the time of our country's creation and for a hundred years past our creation, abortion WAS LEGAL up to the point of "Quickening"....following Common Law.

Our founding Fathers knew all about abortion, which did take place at the time of the Constitution....they knew that abortion was permitted up to the point of "quickening" and could have easily writen in to the constitution rights for the unborn IF THEY WISHED such....

I am not discounting the life of the unborn, just telling you about what REALLY is the AMERICAN HISTORY on this issue....

After "quickening" abortions were eventually changed in Common Law, to be a felony for the woman aborting and anyone that helped her, but before quickening still stayed legal....for women, most of whom aborted thru medicines swallowed, which could be gotten at their pharmacy or via a pharmacist at the time.....

Only in the mid 1800's did Churches start to meddle in it and start making it THEIR political ISSUE, and pushed for laws to be changed in the USA and in Europe to make abortion illegal even before quickening of the child to be.

I do admit that we KNOW so much more now, and our medicines have made it possible to keep alive a baby born at just 22 weeks of gestation with our improved neonatal intensive care units....we have DNA that proves the fetus IS NOT the mother, but a separate human being with it's own genetic map....in fact in rape cases of young girls, one that I remember was 11 years old and pregnant, they gave her an abortion and took dna from the fetus to help identify who raped her....turned out to be her 18 year old brother, of which he was prosecuted for rape and convicted thru the DNA of the fetus...comes to mind....

So there is sooo much MORE to this abortion issue today than in the 1800's with all that we have learned thru science over the centuries....and people need to just chalk up that when an abortion is performed, the mother is choosing not to be a mother, not to have a baby, at this time.

Nothing pisses me off more than someone that just acts as if the fetus or even the embryo is just a glob of meaningless, haphazzardly collecting, cells....which is simply not true...

It is the beginning of every one of our lives....those of us that are here now.

I think we need to emphasis this, so that the mom's to be can be on solid ground when they make their decisions regarding whether or not to abort....and not just writing off their actions as just removing a glob of cells...and honestly, I think that the women that do decide to abort KNOW such, they know it is a baby in which they feel they are not "ready for", or are scared to tell their parents about, or that they are afraid to raise alone because the daddy ain't having any part of it, or worried that they won't be able to get the teaching, business, nursing degree they are just shy of getting....and if GOTTEN could make the lives of any of their future children much the better for.....

I guess, I am just so torn on this issue...on the one hand, I believe that abortion is snuffing out a future life of a person, before personhood can be achieved....

and on the other hand, I believe that this is a very difficult, personal decision to make and should remain between the mother, the father to be and any of their personal advisors such as their Pastor or Rabbi, or their Parents or even an independent counselor, and Personal Doctor.....up to a certain point... :(

Like I said, I am honestly torn on this...

jd

[No1tovote4]

A fetus is a potential life, not a complete life. Using potential life, genocide has killed more.
If we count that potential life as a life the same as ours, then abortion has killed more.

The two have nothing to do with each other though, but I'm trying to see it from your point of view.
A fetus is a complete life, an egg is just potential until it is fertilized a sperm is just potential until it fertilizes...

Science is not on your side here. It is simply a human at a different stage of development and easier to dismiss emotionally because you are unable to see and hold them. Human life begins at conception. It runs through many stages of development, zygote, fetus, infant, child... so forth.

There are many different stages of human development, from Zygote to Old Age, but in every stage it is a human life, distinct and separate though dependent on others for the early portion, and often the late portions of its existence.

[midcan5]

Always a tough topic - random thoughts

If those opposed to abortion supported child care and nutritional service for all children I could take them serious.

The act of sex wastes life, destroys the potential for life. Quit purposeless sex if you are serious about life.

If your only argument is a few cells become life those same cells die so potential has no meaning.

Animals are conscious beings and we kill and eat them daily. Some kill them for sport. So life is only important if it is my species life?

Each month the opportunity for life presents itself for a woman and yet they often prevent life from forming. If you carry anti pro-choice arguments to their extreme you have to allow me mine. This is true for men as well. Give life as often as you can or don't tell others what they should do.

By potential I mean we die, so again if I follow the extreme argument of the anti pro group, just as we are born we die so is death ok as it is where we end up anyway. Suicide anyone.

4000 living, breathing, sentient beings die daily and we argue abortion.
No one is killing innocent children they are just doing the same things everyone does when they prevent life from coming to fruition.

50% of fertilized eggs perish, God is screwing up here.

Ever look in a microscope at your semen. Lots of life there. Stop beating off.
In Genesis 38 we read that Onan "spilled his seed upon the ground," an act that so displeased the Lord that He struck him dead.

Let's support education and preventative measures and stop the BS that surrounds abortion.

Let's help those children who make it through but have so little.

And if the constitution/law mattered to you you would not care about abortion as it is legal. Right?

and if those thoughts aren't crazy enough

"We offer evidence that legalized abortion has contributed significantly to recent crime reductions."

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf


abortion rights argument
http://bostonreview.net/BR20.3/thomson.html

[No1tovote4]

Not until it the brain develops IMO.
Now you are speaking of "personhood" and that is a vague and undefinable instance in the life of a human. When speaking of science one must use definable and clear terminology, not vague and emotion-filled terminology based on an attempt to excuse an action you want to continue.

Are children who are microcephalic not humans because they never reach that state of "personhood" based on your brain development criteria?

[PostmodernProphet]

Not until it the brain develops IMO.

even by that definition, you would have to admit something is alive when it's brain begins to control heart beat, etc.....the fetus reaches that level of development before most women become aware they are pregnant......(5th to 6th week following conception)......

[JohnDoe]

Always a tough topic - random thoughts

If those opposed to abortion supported child care and nutritional service for all children I could take them serious.

The act of sex wastes life, destroys the potential for life. Quit purposeless sex if you are serious about life.

If your only argument is a few cells become life those same cells die so potential has no meaning.

Animals are conscious beings and we kill and eat them daily. Some kill them for sport. So life is only important if it is my species life?

Each month the opportunity for life presents itself for a woman and yet they often prevent life from forming. If you carry anti pro-choice arguments to their extreme you have to allow me mine. This is true for men as well. Give life as often as you can or don't tell others what they should do.

By potential I mean we die, so again if I follow the extreme argument of the anti pro group, just as we are born we die so is death ok as it is where we end up anyway. Suicide anyone.

4000 living, breathing, sentient beings die daily and we argue abortion.
No one is killing innocent children they are just doing the same things everyone does when they prevent life from coming to fruition.

50% of fertilized eggs perish, God is screwing up here.

Ever look in a microscope at your semen. Lots of life there. Stop beating off.
In Genesis 38 we read that Onan "spilled his seed upon the ground," an act that so displeased the Lord that He struck him dead.

Let's support education and preventative measures and stop the BS that surrounds abortion.

Let's help those children who make it through but have so little.

And if the constitution/law mattered to you you would not care about abortion as it is legal. Right?

and if those thoughts aren't crazy enough

"We offer evidence that legalized abortion has contributed significantly to recent crime reductions."

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf


abortion rights argument
http://bostonreview.net/BR20.3/thomson.html

First Midcan let me say that there is no other animal on Earth, other than Humans, that can reason, speak, and write what they reason and think down on paper to pass on to generation after generation....

no other animal species has developed mentally, and taken control completely of their own lives and destiny as humans....

In my opinion, there is absolutely no comparison of ANY ANIMAL and Human beings....

This does not diminish Animal rights, so to say or inhumane treatment of animals.... just that they are NOT the same and should NEVER imho be compared to killing ones future child....

Diminishing a human life in this manner, ONLY HURTS the Mother to be....you minimalize her pain and her struggle in making this very serious decision of killing off her own offspring, before its fruition....

there is a huge mental weight that is put upon this decision and it should NOT be writen off as though it is a decicion on whether to kill a chicken on your farm so that your family can have dinner that night and I KNOW you can see this and know this midcan!!!

Already, as it stands with women that have abortions, they have no time to even think or mourn their own decisions....we live in a society where after an abortion you go back to work that afternoon or the next day...just push the woman in to going "back to normal", routine as usual, with no time to even put in to reason their own decisions and their OWN LOSSES....no mourning is allowed...because it is just a glob of cells type crap...

Leaving all of this INSIDE the women that had abortions only later to come out with forms of depression in later life....

Feel sorry for the woman that felt she had no choice but to abort her own child...terminate the life of her own child...give her sympathy, and empathy, and heartfelt concern for what she must feel about her own decision...don't just so coldly chalk it up to a glob of cells or to a life of a cow or a chicken. I'm certain that this will only hurt her in the long run and not really help her...

As far as everything else on your list Midcan, I absolutely agree that many, many of those things can be done for the children of today that are born which WOULD ONLY come to REDUCE abortions in our country in the future....we need to focus on how to make them legal but rare...

Care

[JohnDoe]

even by that definition, you would have to admit something is alive when it's brain begins to control heart beat, etc.....the fetus reaches that level of development before most women become aware they are pregnant......(5th to 6th week following conception)......
the fetal stage is an Embryo up until 10 weeks...they used to think it was around 12-13 weeks but have recently moved this up with their newer findings I believe, then after this point it is considered a Fetus, which means the body and organs are ALL in their proper positions and the cells of such, just need to multiply to develope at this point....the child is fully formed, not fully developed....but formed in to what it will eventually become if just left alone....

I believe that 90% of all abortions are done prior to 12 weeks, the previous fetus stage.

jd

[midcan5]

Diminishing a human life in this manner, ONLY HURTS the Mother to be....you minimalize her pain and her struggle in making this very serious decision of killing off her own offspring, before its fruition....

there is a huge mental weight that is put upon this decision and it should NOT be writen off as though it is a decicion on whether to kill a chicken on your farm so that your family can have dinner that night and I KNOW you can see this and know this midcan!!!

Already, as it stands with women that have abortions, they have no time to even think or mourn their own decisions....we live in a society where after an abortion you go back to work that afternoon or the next day...just push the woman in to going "back to normal", routine as usual, with no time to even put in to reason their own decisions and their OWN LOSSES....no mourning is allowed...because it is just a glob of cells type crap...

I don't agree, I know many women who have had abortions either when they were not ready or after their family was complete. Your experience aside, it is not up to me to tell another person how to lead their life. Life has to mean more than cells as all fertile people decide against life every day. But the hypocrisy of so many is they care not for the living as the living are hard to manage, they care for an abstraction that does not interfere with their own life.

[Abbey Marie]

I don't agree, I know many women who have had abortions either when they were not ready or after their family was complete. Your experience aside, it is not up to me to tell another person how to lead their life. Life has to mean more than cells as all fertile people decide against life every day. But the hypocrisy of so many is they care not for the living as the living are hard to manage, they care for an abstraction that does not interfere with their own life.

Oh, no, not that tired old simplistic argument. "You can't care about the unborn, unless you make life super for every living person on the face of the earth". It's as wrong as those sarcastic anti-abortion bumper stickers, "Save the baby humans". Rubbish. It is not only possible, but very common, for people to care deeply about both the born and the unborn. And animals, too. Do you have a clue how much church ministries do for the poor? For orphans?

As for post-abortion depression, I believe it is well-documented. I'll try to find a link. Your disagreement on the point isn't really all that meaningful.

[crin63]

With regard to the after effects of a woman having an abortion.

I have known women that had more than 1 abortion and what it did was destroy any natural affection they had for children.

They had to make children of no value in their own minds in order to have the abortion in the first place.

Once they had their own children there was a coldness and callousness toward them that I never saw with women who never had abortions.

[JohnDoe]

With regard to the after effects of a woman having an abortion.

I have known women that had more than 1 abortion and what it did was destroy any natural affection they had for children.

They had to make children of no value in their own minds in order to have the abortion in the first place.

Once they had their own children there was a coldness and callousness toward them that I never saw with women who never had abortions.

I TOTALLY DISAGREE crin....

every woman that i know that has had an abortion has gone on to be FABULOUS mothers...over and above any mother.....

sooooo, i guess maybe this all boils down to the ''individual'' and honestly should NOT be put in to a ''group think'' of all of these mothers....

my sister in law had an abortion in her youth, now she is the wife of a Pastor and has 2 beautiful, home schooled girls, my nieces, and is one of the best mother's i've ever known!

my best girlfriend had an abortion when young and she went on to be the most loving wife and mother of 2 very wanted, wonderful children, one son, one daughter....

i can go on and on with these stories....

jd

[PostmodernProphet]

As for post-abortion depression, I believe it is well-documented. I'll try to find a link.

a plethora of information...... www.afterabortion.com ......

[crin63]

my sister in law had an abortion in her youth, now she is the wife of a Pastor and has 2 beautiful, home schooled girls, my nieces, and is one of the best mother's i've ever known!



I was trying to keep religion out of this discussion but yes, 1 of the women became a Christian and it completely transformed her view of children. She became a wonderful mother.

[PostmodernProphet]

I believe that 90% of all abortions are done prior to 12 weeks, the previous fetus stage.

jd

according to Planned Parenthood....

http://www.guttmacher.org/graphics/2008/01/10/IB_pie.gif

[JohnDoe]

according to Planned Parenthood....




hmmmm, here's an article from the same institute that contradicts the graph pmp....




NEWS RELEASE
125 Maiden Lane, 7th Floor, New York, NY 10038
Ph 212 248 1111 Fax 212 248 1951
Rebecca Wind
mediaworks@guttmacher.org

January 17, 2008
U.S. ABORTION RATE CONTINUES LONG-TERM DECLINE, FALLING TO LOWEST LEVEL SINCE 1974; MORE EFFORT STILL NEEDED TO REDUCE UNINTENDED PREGNANCY
Increased Use of Medication Abortion Stems Decline in Providers
In 2005, the U.S. abortion rate declined to 19.4 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44, continuing the downward trend that started after the abortion rate peaked at 29.3 in 1981, according to a new Guttmacher Institute census of U.S. abortion providers. The abortion rate is now at its lowest level since 1974. The number of abortions declined as well, to a total of 1.2 million in 2005, 25% below the all-time high of 1.6 million abortions in 1990.

Despite these declines, slightly more than one in five pregnancies ended in abortion in 2005, an indicator of how much still needs to be done to help women and their partners avoid unintended pregnancy. “Our policymakers at the state and federal levels need to understand that behind virtually every abortion is an unintended pregnancy, so we must redouble our efforts towards prevention, through better access to contraception,” says Sharon L. Camp, president and CEO of the Guttmacher Institute.

Even as the long-term decline in the U.S. abortion rate continued, the new study also found that early medication abortion services expanded substantially between 2000 and 2005, as growing numbers of providers offered the service, including some that previously did not offer surgical abortion services. Fifty-seven percent of all known abortion providers now offer medication abortion services, compared with 33% in early 2001. Medication abortion accounted for 13% (161,000) of all abortions performed in 2005, and 22% of all eligible abortions (those performed prior to nine weeks’ gestation). According to recent government reports, abortions are occurring earlier, when the procedure is safer; increased access to medication abortion can help accelerate that trend.

“For a long time, nearly 90% of abortions in the U.S. have taken place in the first trimester, but in recent years, women having an abortion have been able to do so earlier and earlier in the first trimester. Currently, more than six in 10 abortions occur within the first eight weeks of pregnancy, and almost three in 10 take place at six weeks or earlier,” says Rachel Jones, lead researcher on the new survey. “Medication abortion, which provides women with an additional option early in pregnancy, clearly reinforces this very positive trend.”

The decline in the number of U.S. abortion providers, which had been substantial over the past decade, slowed dramatically between 2000 and 2005: The number of providers declined just 2% over this period, partly because of a surge in the number of providers that offer only medication abortion services. Without them, the number of providers would have declined by 8%. Overall, the number of providers declined in 26 states and the District of Columbia, increased in 15 states and remained stable in nine.

This analysis is based on the Guttmacher Institute’s 14th census of all known abortion providers in the United States. The study, “Abortion in the United States: Incidence and Access to Services, 2005,” will appear in the March 2008 issue of Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health.


http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2008/01/17/index.html

[PostmodernProphet]

but in recent years, women having an abortion have been able to do so earlier and earlier in the first trimester. Currently, more than six in 10 abortions occur within the first eight weeks of pregnancy, and almost three in 10 take place at six weeks or earlier,”

okay, maybe I am old fashioned, but back in the "old days" (70s and 80s) most women didn't have a clue that they were pregnant until they missed a period, and even then might not take any action to determine if they were until they were a couple or three weeks late.....how is it that 30% of abortions are occurring before the sixth week?.....

[Hagbard Celine]

Take a look at these numbers from genocides. The numbers are the average taken from the estimated highs and lows on Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_toll

Which would you think has killed more, genocide worldwide or abortions in the U.S.A.?

1. Genocides of Nazi Germany 13,600,000

2. Holodomor famine - Soviet Union 6,500,000

3. Famine, political repression - Cambodia 2,300,000

4. 1971 Bangladesh atrocities East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) 1,513,000

5. Armenian genocide - Turkey 850,000

6. Rwandan genocide 1,950,000

7. Ustashe massacres of Serbs, Jews, Roma - Balkans 527,500

8. Nanking Massacre - Nanking 200,000

9. Depopulation of Australian aborigines - Australia 225,000

10. Darfur conflict - Sudan 300,000

11. Massacres of Mayan Indians - Guatemala 215,000

12. Revolt in the Vendée - France 308,500

13. Political repression of East Timorese - East Timor 225,000

14. Political repression of West Papuans - Indonesia 200,000

15. Al-Anfal Campaign - Iraq 150,000

16. Massacres of Hutus - Burundi 75,000

17. Massacres of Tutsis - Burundi 50,000

18. Herero and Namaqua genocide - Namibia 70,000

19. Srebenica massacre - Srebenica 8,000

Genocide Total 29,267,000

Abortion Total (America alone) 48,589,993 http://www.nrlc.org/ABORTION/facts/abortionstats.html

God help us as a nation!

I just want you to know that putting this on a message board does not count as "forwarding it to 10 friends" and that you will not get your promised two weeks of good luck. :poke:

[crin63]

I just want you to know that putting this on a message board does not count as "forwarding it to 10 friends" and that you will not get your promised two weeks of good luck. :poke:

Thanks for the heads up. I couldn't sleep last night worrying over it.

[Hagbard Celine]

a fetus is a living thing.....it has just as much right to live as any other living thing......

I completely disagree. A fetus has no rights other than those its parents give to it--afterall, they created it using their genetic material. If they choose to destroy it, you nor I have no say in it whatsoever.

[Hagbard Celine]

Thanks for the heads up. I couldn't sleep last night worrying over it.

I have a feeling that you probably don't sleep most nights crin.

[glockmail]

I completely disagree. A fetus has no rights other than those its parents give to it--afterall, they created it using their genetic material. If they choose to destroy it, you nor I have no say in it whatsoever. Great- so I can kill my kids without consequences!

[crin63]

I have a feeling that you probably don't sleep most nights crin.

I sleep fine as far as I know except for the sleep apnea and multiple body aches & pains. No worry's here.

[Hagbard Celine]

Great- so I can kill my kids without consequences!

Obviously not tard. What an idiotic thing to say. A fetus is not the same as a fully-formed, born human--you know that, you're just trying to be pretentious. If you want to continue to stand with your trident guarding the vaginas of America's pregnant women then be my guest, but don't be surprised when you get told to mind your own business and get the hell out. (shrug)

[Hagbard Celine]

I sleep fine as far as I know except for the sleep apnea and multiple body aches & pains. No worry's here.

I'm glad to hear it. I was sitting on the edge of my seat in anticipation waiting to hear your report.

[crin63]

I'm glad to hear it. I was sitting on the edge of my seat in anticipation waiting to hear your report.

Your concern for my sleep was overwhelming so I thought I should reply. You can sit back and relax now. I'm doing fine.:coffee:

[JohnDoe]

okay, maybe I am old fashioned, but back in the "old days" (70s and 80s) most women didn't have a clue that they were pregnant until they missed a period, and even then might not take any action to determine if they were until they were a couple or three weeks late.....how is it that 30% of abortions are occurring before the sixth week?.....

ahhhhhhhh, the ever new and so accurate pregnancy test... can predict pregnancy within 3 weeks of pregnancy now or even sooner...

they can even tell the gender of the child to be, less than 4 weeks in to pregnancy.....

jd

[Hagbard Celine]

Your concern for my sleep was overwhelming so I thought I should reply. You can sit back and relax now. I'm doing fine.:coffee:

I think you may have confused "magnanimous self-righteousness" for "concern," but whatever. :cheers2:

[PostmodernProphet]

ahhhhhhhh, the ever new and so accurate pregnancy test... can predict pregnancy within 3 weeks of pregnancy now or even sooner...

they can even tell the gender of the child to be, less than 4 weeks in to pregnancy.....

jd

that may seem possible for women who are anticipating being pregnant, but practically speaking, how many women are going to be thinking about pregnancy before missing at least one period?......

[crin63]

Seriously though, was anyone surprised by the numbers?

[Hagbard Celine]

that may seem possible for women who are anticipating being pregnant, but practically speaking, how many women are going to be thinking about pregnancy before missing at least one period?......

Lots. For instance, when I walk into a room, most women will go home and take one of these tests as a precaution. I've been known to make women pregnant just by proxy. :dance:

[glockmail]

Obviously not tard. What an idiotic thing to say. A fetus is not the same as a fully-formed, born human--you know that, you're just trying to be pretentious. If you want to continue to stand with your trident guarding the vaginas of America's pregnant women then be my guest, but don't be surprised when you get told to mind your own business and get the hell out. (shrug)
There are those here that advocate abortion on demand right up to normal 9 month delivery. What's the difference, tard?

[emmett]

Take a look at these numbers from genocides. The numbers are the average taken from the estimated highs and lows on Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_toll

Which would you think has killed more, genocide worldwide or abortions in the U.S.A.?

1. Genocides of Nazi Germany 13,600,000

2. Holodomor famine - Soviet Union 6,500,000

3. Famine, political repression - Cambodia 2,300,000

4. 1971 Bangladesh atrocities East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) 1,513,000

5. Armenian genocide - Turkey 850,000

6. Rwandan genocide 1,950,000

7. Ustashe massacres of Serbs, Jews, Roma - Balkans 527,500

8. Nanking Massacre - Nanking 200,000

9. Depopulation of Australian aborigines - Australia 225,000

10. Darfur conflict - Sudan 300,000

11. Massacres of Mayan Indians - Guatemala 215,000

12. Revolt in the Vendée - France 308,500

13. Political repression of East Timorese - East Timor 225,000

14. Political repression of West Papuans - Indonesia 200,000

15. Al-Anfal Campaign - Iraq 150,000

16. Massacres of Hutus - Burundi 75,000

17. Massacres of Tutsis - Burundi 50,000

18. Herero and Namaqua genocide - Namibia 70,000

19. Srebenica massacre - Srebenica 8,000

Genocide Total 29,267,000

Abortion Total (America alone) 48,589,993 http://www.nrlc.org/ABORTION/facts/abortionstats.html

God help us as a nation!

Eating at McDonalds! Billions have been served so we must assume at least a billion have died.

[JohnDoe]

that may seem possible for women who are anticipating being pregnant, but practically speaking, how many women are going to be thinking about pregnancy before missing at least one period?......
I think they do nowadays, different than the 70's and 80's which is where abortion first became readily available....during that time, my best friend had to go to a doctor to get a pregnancy test and i believe she was around 6 weeks, it was after she missed her period, as you had stated....

But, obviously something has changed, and women are most certainly more aware because the article I posted said that 13% of all termination of pregnancies take place via medication now that it has become legal and more available, and abortions still continue to be reduced so it is not as if the morning after pill or ru486 is increasing the number of abortions either....

For all I know there is a pregnancy test out there that can be read and be accurate within a week or even a couple of days after having sex???? I am clueless on this stuff and keeping up with it how fast things are changing in the medical field????


jd

[JohnDoe]

There are those here that advocate abortion on demand right up to normal 9 month delivery. What's the difference, tard?
Who? Link please :))

jd

[glockmail]

Who? Link please :))

jdhttp://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=258143&highlight=abortion#post258143

[JohnDoe]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=258143&highlight=abortion#post258143


YIKES!!!!!

I was owned!!!! hahahaha! rep coming your way!

jd

[Missileman]

Now you are speaking of "personhood" and that is a vague and undefinable instance in the life of a human. When speaking of science one must use definable and clear terminology, not vague and emotion-filled terminology based on an attempt to excuse an action you want to continue.

Are children who are microcephalic not humans because they never reach that state of "personhood" based on your brain development criteria?

A body without a brain is not a human being, not a person. If the definition of dead is when a person's brain no longer functions, then at a minimum, being a person has to include having a brain.

Murder is the unlawful killing of a person, NOT the unlawful killing of human life.

[Missileman]

okay, maybe I am old fashioned, but back in the "old days" (70s and 80s) most women didn't have a clue that they were pregnant until they missed a period, and even then might not take any action to determine if they were until they were a couple or three weeks late.....how is it that 30% of abortions are occurring before the sixth week?.....

Home pregnancy tests?

[PostmodernProphet]

A body without a brain is not a human being, not a person. If the definition of dead is when a person's brain no longer functions, then at a minimum, being a person has to include having a brain.


hmmm....death is identified by a lack of brain waves.....will you agree then, to a ban of abortions at the point where a fetus has measurable brain waves?.....

[Missileman]

hmmm....death is identified by a lack of brain waves.....will you agree then, to a ban of abortions at the point where a fetus has measurable brain waves?.....

At the point where a fetus has a brain, except where the mother's life is in danger, or catastrophic disability(s) identified in the fetus...of course that's been my position all along. It's not restrictive or intrusive enough for some folks though.

[PostmodernProphet]

if I recall correctly, that begins at about 40 days....

[actsnoblemartin]

very interesting, but how do you prove abortion is genocide?


Take a look at these numbers from genocides. The numbers are the average taken from the estimated highs and lows on Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_toll

Which would you think has killed more, genocide worldwide or abortions in the U.S.A.?

1. Genocides of Nazi Germany 13,600,000

2. Holodomor famine - Soviet Union 6,500,000

3. Famine, political repression - Cambodia 2,300,000

4. 1971 Bangladesh atrocities East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) 1,513,000

5. Armenian genocide - Turkey 850,000

6. Rwandan genocide 1,950,000

7. Ustashe massacres of Serbs, Jews, Roma - Balkans 527,500

8. Nanking Massacre - Nanking 200,000

9. Depopulation of Australian aborigines - Australia 225,000

10. Darfur conflict - Sudan 300,000

11. Massacres of Mayan Indians - Guatemala 215,000

12. Revolt in the Vendée - France 308,500

13. Political repression of East Timorese - East Timor 225,000

14. Political repression of West Papuans - Indonesia 200,000

15. Al-Anfal Campaign - Iraq 150,000

16. Massacres of Hutus - Burundi 75,000

17. Massacres of Tutsis - Burundi 50,000

18. Herero and Namaqua genocide - Namibia 70,000

19. Srebenica massacre - Srebenica 8,000

Genocide Total 29,267,000

Abortion Total (America alone) 48,589,993 http://www.nrlc.org/ABORTION/facts/abortionstats.html

God help us as a nation!

[Dilloduck]

very interesting, but how do you prove abortion is genocide?

uh---no one is trying to prove that, Marty.

[JohnDoe]

if I recall correctly, that begins at about 40 days....
fyi....just found this...

http://www.dcdoctor.com/pages/rightpages_wellnesscenter/pregnancy/fetaldevelopment.html#PREGNANCY-STAGES%20OF%20FETAL%20DEVELOPMENT-embryonic%20development


1. CONCEPTION

• Formation of a viable zygote by the union of the male sperm and the female ovum; fertilization.
• Normal hormonal balance, normal cycle, healthy pregnancy.
• Normal gametes.
• Healthy fallopian tubes - normal conduction of ovum, no ectopic pregnancy.
• Healthy, normally positioned uterus, normal implantation.



2. EMBRYONIC DEVELOPMENT: 4-8 weeks of embryo development.

1.5 WEEKS: Completely developed embryo.

2nd WEEK: Primitive streak.


3rd WEEK: Central nervous system begins to develop.
Heart development initiated - beating begins.

4th WEEK: Complete mass (baby and chorion, etc.) - about 1" long and the size of a pigeon's egg.
Embryo inside is about 3/8" and weighs less than 1 gram.
Outpouching from anterior brain - early eyes - limb buds of arms and legs.

5th WEEK: Nose and lips formation begins.
Brain is developed into 5 components and lumen of spinal cord is continuous with brain vesicles allowing free cerebral spinal fluid flow.

8th WEEK: Major organs begin development.
Now about size of hen's egg.
Embryo is 1" long and about 4 grams.
Hands and feet are seen.
Baby is extremely reactive to its environment.
Male sex hormone (testosterone) produced by testes
Masculine development in males - no change in females.

12th WEEK: Embryo is about the size of a goose egg.
Placenta is well established and weighs more than the baby.
Baby is approximately 3 1/2" long and weights about 60 grams (2 oz.). Fingers and toes can be seen.
This is the end of the embryonic stage.


3. FETAL DEVELOPMENT

14-16th WEEKS: Brain developed to the point that baby can suck, swallow and make irregular breathing movements.

16th WEEK: 6", 6 oz. (180 grams)
Complete closure of nasal septum and palate.
Fetal heart beat heard with amplification.
Fetal movement is recognized.
Sex is distinguishable now.
Meconium formation in intestines.

20th WEEK: 8", 10 oz. (300 grams).
Lanugo - fine hair covering over entire body, probably for protection of skin.
Vernix Caseosa - secreted by fetus, made of sebaceous material, and other materials and is probably protective.
Has some antimicrobial substances.
Fetal heart beat heard: 120-160 beats per minute.
24th WEEK: 12", 1 1/2 lbs. (720 grams).
Baby is maturing, not considered viable (until 28 week).

28th WEEK: Baby can survive outside uterus if lungs capable of breathing.
10-20% survival if born at this time.
14", 2 1/2 lbs.
Viable (legally).
Fetus in breech position until 32nd week.

32nd WEEK: Maturing. 50% survival if born at this time.
Should turn to head down position.
16", 3 1/2 lbs. (1680 grams).
Skin is red and wrinkly.
The downy type hair is less plentiful and has more vernix.

30-34th WEEK: Baby is the same size as placenta.

36th WEEK: 94% survival rate if born at this age.
18", 5 1/2 lbs.
Has some subcutaneous fat.
The baby stores things during this last trimester.
Mother should watch her weight at this time.
Fingernails are now at the tips of the fingers.

40th WEEK: Full term. 20", 7 lbs. (3360 grams).
Length is better indication of maturity of fetus.
Very little lanugo, lots of vernix.

[glockmail]

.....40th WEEK: Full term. 20", 7 lbs. (3360 grams).
Length is better indication of maturity of fetus.
Very little lanugo, lots of vernix.
Not too late to get rid of the little bastard. Almost time to suck his brains out.

[Hagbard Celine]

There are those here that advocate abortion on demand right up to normal 9 month delivery. What's the difference, tard?

Well I'm not one of "those" mo-mo.

[glockmail]

Well I'm not one of "those" mo-mo. What's a mo-mo? Is it like a turd?

[Hagbard Celine]

What's a mo-mo? Is it like a turd?

A mo-mo is a moron. A nincompoop. An ignoramus. El stupido. Dumbass. Retard. A mook. A lumox. An idiot. A dolt. A pea-brain. One of dull wit. One of little acumen if you will.

[glockmail]

A mo-mo is a moron. A nincompoop. An ignoramus. El stupido. Dumbass. Retard. A mook. A lumox. An idiot. A dolt. A pea-brain. One of dull wit. One of little acumen if you will. Why don't you just say so, 'tard. :pee:

[My Winter Storm]

12th WEEK: Embryo is about the size of a goose egg.
Placenta is well established and weighs more than the baby.
Baby is approximately 3 1/2" long and weights about 60 grams (2 oz.). Fingers and toes can be seen.
This is the end of the embryonic stage.

These people must be confused because there is no such thing as a 12 week old embryo, just a fetus which it becomes at eight weeks lol.

[My Winter Storm]

There are those here that advocate abortion on demand right up to normal 9 month delivery. What's the difference, tard?

I'm ususually on my own on this one, so who else is with me on this?

[My Winter Storm]

the fetal stage is an Embryo up until 10 weeks...they used to think it was around 12-13 weeks but have recently moved this up with their newer findings I believe

I wasn't aware of this. How interesting.

[Psychoblues]

Who needs credible debate within a subject that starts right off with a false premise, sharon?



I'm ususually on my own on this one, so who else is with me on this?

It's a hot button issue for only the misinformed and very much afraid, don't you know?

I regret my own participation in this one.

[My Winter Storm]

Well it was said 'some people' not 'one person' so I thought maybe there were others.

[actsnoblemartin]

my problem with this thread is: were comparing an un-born child with human beings, and i dont think that is a fair comparison


Who needs credible debate within a subject that starts right off with a false premise, sharon?




It's a hot button issue for only the misinformed and very much afraid, don't you know?

I regret my own participation in this one.

[crin63]

my problem with this thread is: were comparing an un-born child with human beings, and i dont think that is a fair comparison

I understand what you're saying however I disagree.

I believe that from the moment of conception their is a life. It may not be fully developed but it is life none the less and I don't think, that life should be extinguished.

From my perspective genocide and abortion both take lives and I was kind of surprised when I saw that abortions had ended more lives than genocide.

[actsnoblemartin]

You see, while i dont think, that an unborn child, and a full grown adult are the same, i genuinly respect where youre coming from, and im not sure if i still believe abortion is a good thing because, having unprotected sex is not being personally responsible


I understand what you're saying however I disagree.

I believe that from the moment of conception their is a life. It may not be fully developed but it is life none the less and I don't think, that life should be extinguished.

From my perspective genocide and abortion both take lives and I was kind of surprised when I saw that abortions had ended more lives than genocide.

[Psychoblues]

Perhaps it is the moment of decision that makes the difference? That has worked well but not always OK with me.

[glockmail]

I'm ususually on my own on this one, so who else is with me on this?
You're all alone on this one, which is probably why you choose to be gay.

[My Winter Storm]

You're all alone on this one, which is probably why you choose to be gay.

I never chose it, and you already know I have told you many times.:finger3:

[My Winter Storm]

I understand what you're saying however I disagree.

I believe that from the moment of conception their is a life. It may not be fully developed but it is life none the less and I don't think, that life should be extinguished.

From my perspective genocide and abortion both take lives and I was kind of surprised when I saw that abortions had ended more lives than genocide.

I wasn't surprised there were more abortions, to be honest, I expected those figures - although it was higher than I thought it would be.

I believe that from the moment of conception there is a life, but I don't see it as the same life as my own. It's not the same, because we are two different things. A fetus isn't anything like myself as it is different. It's life, but it's just not the same, if you see where I'm coming from.

[glockmail]

I never chose it, and you already know I have told you many times.:finger3:
Oh you chose it all right, just like you choose to think that killing a 9 month month old fetus about to be delivered is just peachy. That alone proves that you have a distorted view of morality.

[My Winter Storm]

Oh you chose it all right, just like you choose to think that killing a 9 month month old fetus about to be delivered is just peachy. That alone proves that you have a distorted view of morality.

Prove that I chose to be gay.

[actsnoblemartin]

Prove that I chose to be gay.

door #1

door #2

:laugh2:

[My Winter Storm]

Which one should I choose Martin? lol

[actsnoblemartin]

Which one should I choose Martin? lol

either one their both gay :laugh2:

[My Winter Storm]

Aha! A closet gay, huh? They are the best ones, IMO...

[gabosaurus]

I am sure there are more closet gays here than just Martin...

[actsnoblemartin]

you wish :laugh2:


I am sure there are more closet gays here than just Martin...

[No1tovote4]

A body without a brain is not a human being, not a person. If the definition of dead is when a person's brain no longer functions, then at a minimum, being a person has to include having a brain.

Murder is the unlawful killing of a person, NOT the unlawful killing of human life.
Again, you are pretending a question was never asked.

Does your assertion here mean you can kill the microcephalic child with no punishment? I'm guessing you are wrong and your criteria is misleading at best.

[glockmail]

Prove that I chose to be gay. Prove that you were born that way.:poke:

[gabosaurus]

Prove that you were born that way.

It's like stupidity. Some of you were born stupid. Others become such.
Which one are you? :p

[Missileman]

Again, you are pretending a question was never asked.

Does your assertion here mean you can kill the microcephalic child with no punishment? I'm guessing you are wrong and your criteria is misleading at best.

Microcephalic children have a brain, so I'm not asserting you can kill them. Anencephalic children however will never be a person. They should be aborted before term. If carried to term, they should be euthanized.

[My Winter Storm]

Prove that you were born that way.:poke:

Thats easy. I know myself how I grew up, and I know myself I never chose it. If I did, I'd wouldn't be ashamed to admit it, but I cannot admit it as I never asked to be this way.

Prove to me that you were born straight?:poke:

[My Winter Storm]

Microcephalic children have a brain, so I'm not asserting you can kill them. Anencephalic children however will never be a person. They should be aborted before term. If carried to term, they should be euthanized.

I agree.:clap:

They wouldn't experience pain anyway as they have no brain to speak of.

[glockmail]

Thats easy. I know myself how I grew up, and I know myself I never chose it. If I did, I'd wouldn't be ashamed to admit it, but I cannot admit it as I never asked to be this way.

Prove to me that you were born straight?:poke:

My parents were both straight, and I'm their kid. Are your parents gay?

[actsnoblemartin]

one must ponder: is one born with a sexuality or are other factors present:

relationships with parents and family, friends

environmental factors

[glockmail]

one must ponder: is one born with a sexuality or are other factors present:

relationships with parents and family, friends

environmental factors
Oops, Martin. Those three are environmental factors. Queers insist that they are born that way.

If you insist on being a queer enabler then you must memorize the lies.

[actsnoblemartin]

unborn children, are not cells, they are god's creation. They should have a right to live.

They will become 2, 5, 10, 13, 18, and more

and to kill them simply because they are an inconvenience is very very gay

[actsnoblemartin]

I dont want anyone telling me what i am, or am not.

that is for me to decide.

I was merely asking a question, sheesh :laugh2:


Oops, Martin. Those three are environmental factors. Queers insist that they are born that way.

If you insist on being a queer enabler then you must memorize the lies.

[glockmail]

Last week you announced that you were a queer advocate. Has this changed?

[My Winter Storm]

My parents were both straight, and I'm their kid. Are your parents gay?

My parents are straight, and will have been married 28 years in October.

[glockmail]

My parents are straight, and will have been married 28 years in October. Good for them. So how could they possibly give birth to a gay child?

[My Winter Storm]

Good for them. So how could they possibly give birth to a gay child?

The same way a lesbian woman could birth to a straight child.

[Missileman]

The same way a lesbian woman could birth to a straight child.

Apparently ol cupcake has never heard of sighted people giving birth to blind children.

[My Winter Storm]

Apparently ol cupcake has never heard of sighted people giving birth to blind children.

And blind people can give birth to sighted children. Your point?

[Missileman]

And blind people can give birth to sighted children. Your point?

Ol Cupcake, aka Glock, is trying to argue that it's impossible for straight people to give birth to homosexuals.

[glockmail]

The same way a lesbian woman could birth to a straight child. She'd be using sperm from a man, which is by definition heterosexual sex. And the queers have done all kinds of research supposedly proving that that child is most likely going to be: heterosexual. :laugh2:

[No1tovote4]

Microcephalic children have a brain, so I'm not asserting you can kill them. Anencephalic children however will never be a person. They should be aborted before term. If carried to term, they should be euthanized.
The microcephalic child will not, however, ever have the higher thought necessary to reach "personhood", either they too must be just swished down the drain, or you are not using enough logic to create criteria to hold up your argument.

[April15]

To abort is not an easy choice. To invade a nation to get oil must have been easy. Neither is the best choice but one was totally avoidable.
Genocide is a lot different than ending the potential life of a fetus you helped initiate. Genocide is the selection of a given race or conviction and killing all.

[Missileman]

The microcephalic child will not, however, ever have the higher thought necessary to reach "personhood", either they too must be just swished down the drain, or you are not using enough logic to create criteria to hold up your argument.

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/microcephaly/microcephaly.htm


Depending on the severity of the accompanying syndrome, children with microcephaly may have mental retardation, delayed motor functions and speech, facial distortions, dwarfism or short stature, hyperactivity, seizures, difficulties with coordination and balance, and other brain or neurological abnormalities. Some children with microcephaly will have normal intelligence and a head that will grow bigger, but they will track below the normal growth curves for head circumference.

I don't see anything in that description of microcephaly that "personhood" is unattainable. The criteria for my argument remains intact. There is no doubt, however, that an anencephalic child will never be a person.

[crin63]

To abort is not an easy choice. To invade a nation to get oil must have been easy. Neither is the best choice but one was totally avoidable.
Genocide is a lot different than ending the potential life of a fetus you helped initiate. Genocide is the selection of a given race or conviction and killing all.

How in the world would you have any idea how hard or easy it was for the decision to be made to go to war. Thats just a stupid statement. Both are and were totally avoidable. Once again not a very intelligent statement.

Granted genocide is different than abortion but both are completely avoidable and require a decision in order to kill.

[April15]

How in the world would you have any idea how hard or easy it was for the decision to be made to go to war. Thats just a stupid statement. Both are and were totally avoidable. Once again not a very intelligent statement.

Granted genocide is different than abortion but both are completely avoidable and require a decision in order to kill.I have every idea how easy it was for Bushco to go to war in Iraq.

Project for the New American Century (PNAC) is an American political neo-conservative think tank, based in Washington, DC co-founded by William Kristol and Robert Kagan. The controversial group was established in early 1997 as a non-profit organization with the goal of promoting American global leadership. The chairman is William Kristol, editor of the Weekly Standard and a regular contributor to the Fox News Channel. The Executive Director and chief operating officer has been Gary J. Schmitt. The group is an initiative of the New Citizenship Project, a non-profit 501c3 organization that has been funded by the Sarah Scaife Foundation, the John M. Olin Foundation and the Bradley Foundation.[1]

Present and former members include prominent members of the Republican Party and the Bush Administration, including Richard Armitage, William J. Bennett, Jeb Bush, Ellen Bork (the wife of Robert Bork), Dick Cheney, Zalmay Khalilzad, Lewis "Scooter'" Libby (who has ben indicted by a federal grand jury), Richard Perle, former U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz. Many of the organization's ideas, and its members, are associated with the neoconservative movement. PNAC has seven full-time staff members, in addition to its board of directors.

Critics allege the controversial organization proposes military and economic space, cyberspace, and global domination by the United States, so as to establish — or maintain — American dominance in world affairs (Pax Americana). Some have argued the American-led invasion of Iraq in March of 2003 was the first step in furthering these plans. Others have accused PNAC of orchestrating the September 11, 2001 terror attacks in order to enable the government in progressing toward their goals.
Statement of Policy
June 3, 1997

American foreign and defense policy is adrift. Conservatives have criticized the incoherent policies of the Clinton Administration. They have also resisted isolationist impulses from within their own ranks. But conservatives have not confidently advanced a strategic vision of America's role in the world. They have not set forth guiding principles for American foreign policy. They have allowed differences over tactics to obscure potential agreement on strategic objectives. And they have not fought for a defense budget that would maintain American security and advance American interests in the new century.

We aim to change this. We aim to make the case and rally support for American global leadership.

As the 20th century draws to a close, the United States stands as the world's preeminent power. Having led the West to victory in the Cold War, America faces an opportunity and a challenge: Does the United States have the vision to build upon the achievements of past decades? Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests?

We are in danger of squandering the opportunity and failing the challenge. We are living off the capital -- both the military investments and the foreign policy achievements -- built up by past administrations. Cuts in foreign affairs and defense spending, inattention to the tools of statecraft, and inconstant leadership are making it increasingly difficult to sustain American influence around the world. And the promise of short-term commercial benefits threatens to override strategic considerations. As a consequence, we are jeopardizing the nation's ability to meet present threats and to deal with potentially greater challenges that lie ahead.

We seem to have forgotten the essential elements of the Reagan Administration's success: a military that is strong and ready to meet both present and future challenges; a foreign policy that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles abroad; and national leadership that accepts the United States' global responsibilities.

Of course, the United States must be prudent in how it exercises its power. But we cannot safely avoid the responsibilities of global leadership or the costs that are associated with its exercise. America has a vital role in maintaining peace and security in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. If we shirk our responsibilities, we invite challenges to our fundamental interests. The history of the 20th century should have taught us that it is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge, and to meet threats before they become dire. The history of this century should have taught us to embrace the cause of American leadership.

Our aim is to remind Americans of these lessons and to draw their consequences for today. Here are four consequences:

• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;

• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;

• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;

• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity may not be fashionable today. But it is necessary if the United States is to build on the successes of this past century and to ensure our security and our greatness in the next.

Elliott Abrams Gary Bauer William J. Bennett Jeb Bush

Dick Cheney Eliot A. Cohen Midge Decter Paula Dobriansky Steve Forbes

Aaron Friedberg Francis Fukuyama Frank Gaffney Fred C. Ikle

Donald Kagan Zalmay Khalilzad I. Lewis Libby Norman Podhoretz

Dan Quayle Peter W. Rodman Stephen P. Rosen Henry S. Rowen

Donald Rumsfeld Vin Weber George Weigel Paul Wolfowitz

Aborting a fetus is not killing in the same manner as terminating a cancerous growth is not killing. Until you can accept that there will be no agreement of any kind.

[Kathianne]

April, that was interesting, but really didn't address how easy it was to go to war. Indeed, while Afghanistan phase was launched about a month after 9/11, since that was bin Laden's lair; the Iraqi War was debated in Congress and in the UN through March 2003, fully 2.5 years after 9/11. The date has nothing to do with linking Iraq to 9/11, however 9/11 did bring the need for clarity in addressing threats to US or its significant allies.

[April15]

I whole heartedly believe Afghanistan is where we should have stayed. The only reason I can see for invading Iraq was to further the PNAC goal of mideast dominance.

[Kathianne]

I whole heartedly believe Afghanistan is where we should have stayed. The only reason I can see for invading Iraq was to further the PNAC goal of mideast dominance.

Be that as it may, you still didn't address what you claimed to be addressing.

[April15]

Be that as it may, you still didn't address what you claimed to be addressing.It seems very obvious that Bush wanted war at any cost and consequently it was an easy move for him to make as it would, in his mind, change his legacy of looser to winner.

[Gaffer]

It seems very obvious that Bush wanted war at any cost and consequently it was an easy move for him to make as it would, in his mind, change his legacy of looser to winner.

So why are we still fooling around with iran? Why haven't we taken out syria. If it's all about conquest we could have started on it a long time ago.

[Immanuel]

It seems very obvious that Bush wanted war at any cost and consequently it was an easy move for him to make as it would, in his mind, change his legacy of looser to winner.

Seeming obvious doesn't make that the case.

I agree with you, it appears that Bush wanted this war, but I wasn't a fly on the wall in the Oval Office. I don't know for sure what he wanted and I doubt you do either.

As for changing his legacy, well, I don't think it worked.

Immie

[crin63]

I have every idea how easy it was for Bushco to go to war in Iraq.

Critics allege the controversial organization proposes military and economic space, cyberspace, and global domination by the United States, so as to establish — or maintain — American dominance in world affairs (Pax Americana). Some have argued the American-led invasion of Iraq in March of 2003 was the first step in furthering these plans. Others have accused PNAC of orchestrating the September 11, 2001 terror attacks in order to enable the government in progressing toward their goals.

Which critics? Just the one writing the story and the hate Bush kool-aid drinkers. It might as well be the man on the moon leveling the accusation. Thats about how much weight anything on either side has with me that is, "critics allege".

None of this post addressed how difficult the decision to go to war was. You don't know what possible anguish President Bush went through, neither do I. So layoff the hate Bush kool-aid and try to think rationally for a moment.


Aborting a fetus is not killing in the same manner as terminating a cancerous growth is not killing. Until you can accept that there will be no agreement of any kind.

Then there will never be any agreement. I don't equate babies with cancerous growths. Use all the terminology that you want to make yourself feel better so that killing babies is okay with you. Its a life thats being ended.

[theHawk]

It's not living in the way you or I am, though.

How so? A fetus has its own unique human DNA, consumes energy and grows. To say thats its not life is absolutely absurd. And just because a lifeform doesn't exist "the way you" are doesn't mean it isn't alive. No matter how much you try to convince yourself otherwise, its still a human life.

[JohnDoe]

it's amazing to me that when a couple wanting a child, goes to the doctor's office for a pregnancy test....and if positive the doctor/nurse comes to the couple and tells them, Congratulations, you are going to have a BABY......

but when a female is pregnant and wants to abort her baby, the baby is now a glob of meaningless cells....:(

jd

[crin63]

it's amazing to me that when a couple wanting a child, goes to the doctor's office for a pregnancy test....and if positive the doctor/nurse comes to the couple and tells them, Congratulations, you are going to have a BABY......

but when a female is pregnant and wants to abort her baby, the baby is now a glob of meaningless cells....:(

jd

Great post, but I can already tell you where those that want to kill babies will make their point. Where you said, "going to be a baby". They want so bad for the baby to be a meaningless blob so they can kill it with a clear conscience and some kind of rationale that they don't have blood on their hands that they will use that part against you.

[April15]

Great post, but I can already tell you where those that want to kill babies will make their point. Where you said, "going to be a baby". They want so bad for the baby to be a meaningless blob so they can kill it with a clear conscience and some kind of rationale that they don't have blood on their hands that they will use that part against you.Quite contrare mon err. You can call it a pre born baby or a glob of cells it makes no difference. The pre born baby is symbient and until it is viable on its own is nothing more than a cyst on the uterous!

[theHawk]

A "cyst" on the uterous?

You make me sick. :puke3:

[April15]

A "cyst" on the uterous?

You make me sick. :puke3:Do you not like medicine or medical terms? Perhaps biology is what is hard to grasp?

[theHawk]

Do you not like medicine or medical terms? Perhaps biology is what is hard to grasp?

So you think that just because a fetus is dependant on its mother that its not a lifeform? You're just as dependant on air, food and water as a fetus is to its mother which provides the same thing.
I wonder how long you'd last without oxygen and food.


And biologically speaking, you're nothing more than a glob of cells too.

[April15]

So you think that just because a fetus is dependant on its mother that its not a lifeform? You're just as dependant on air, food and water as a fetus is to its mother which provides the same thing.
I wonder how long you'd last without oxygen and food.


And biologically speaking, you're nothing more than a glob of cells too.My dependency on air or water or sustainance is not conditional with my being attached to another body for supply of same. I am only dependent on earth being able to sprout anew with fruits and vegetables.

[manu1959]

My dependency on air or water or sustainance is not conditional with my being attached to another body for supply of same. I am only dependent on earth being able to sprout anew with fruits and vegetables.

........hand outs from the government........

[April15]

........hand outs from the government........What hand outs would they be? If police are hand outs you are sadly mistaken.

[Missileman]

it's amazing to me that when a couple wanting a child, goes to the doctor's office for a pregnancy test....and if positive the doctor/nurse comes to the couple and tells them, Congratulations, you are going to have a BABY......

but when a female is pregnant and wants to abort her baby, the baby is now a glob of meaningless cells....:(

jd

It's no coincidence that the doctor tells a woman that she's pregnant and going to have a baby. It very clearly, and rightly, implies that "baby" is in the future, not the present.

[April15]

It's no coincidence that the doctor tells a woman that she's pregnant and going to have a baby. It very clearly, and rightly, implies that "baby" is in the future, not the present.You had to go to a liberal school as the conservative thought and logic is totally different.

[Missileman]

Great post, but I can already tell you where those that want to kill babies will make their point. Where you said, "going to be a baby". They want so bad for the baby to be a meaningless blob so they can kill it with a clear conscience and some kind of rationale that they don't have blood on their hands that they will use that part against you.

By your reasoning, flour = cake.

[Missileman]

You had to go to a liberal school as the conservative thought and logic is totally different.

I am and always have been a conservative. My views aren't firewall far-right. I find most liberal thought to be illogical.

[JohnDoe]

It's no coincidence that the doctor tells a woman that she's pregnant and going to have a baby. It very clearly, and rightly, implies that "baby" is in the future, not the present.


yes misselman, the Baby is in the future, when a couple finds out the woman is pregnant....

But HOW does that negate, that the Baby is also in the future for the pending pregnant abortee....?

it doesn't just change for one pregnant woman over another does it? one is pregnant with a baby and the other woman is WHAT?

Anyone pregnant IS going to have an offspring, a baby,thus the definition of Pregnant.....

you can't be HALF pregnant can you? or pregnant without expecting a baby, a child?

jd

[JohnDoe]

By your reasoning, flour = cake.

no, an oak seedling = an oak tree.....but smaller :)

Why, when Bald Eagles were on the endangered species list were the EGGS of Bald Eagles ALSO protected under law, equal to the protection of the Bald Eagle itself?
jd

[Missileman]

no, an oak seedling = an oak tree.....but smaller :)

jd

Do people consider an acorn an oak tree?

[JohnDoe]

Do people consider an acorn an oak tree?

An Acorn is similar to an unfertilized egg :D

but when in the ground, given a weeks worth of watering, it is similar to the embryo/fetus, as a seedling....

does it have the same monitary worth as a full grown oak tree? Probably not in the immediate future, but it will some day.....:)

Did you skip over my comment on Bald eagle eggs being protected also, when the bald eagle was on the endangered species list?

All I can say is that a fetus is a human being growing inside of the mother.

Some have their cutoffs of when it is morally wrong to terminate a pregnancy, some say there should never be any terminations of pregnancy....I am not putting a dog in that fight right now missleman....

I only want to make certain that we all don't go around trying to fool ourselves in to thinking that a fetus is not a human being, because it is a human being with it's own genetic footprint, it's own separately marked DNA.

The sooner we all accept the science on this, the better for all of us, in my opinon....because it could reduce abortions.....going around telling people that the pregnancy is nothing but a group of cells similar to ones toenail is a copout, and makes it to where no one needs to use birth control at all, because if the gal gets pregnant, she can just go and cut her toenail off....

it is more complicated than such...

Also, for the women that have aborted...some tend not to heal because they are never able to mourn their loss....if it is just a glob of cells, why do they need to mourn...and many do need to mourn, but end up going back to work the next day after the abortion and are forced to just forget about it....it was just a toenail removed type thinking process...and it is much more than that...if not when they aborted, 10 years down the road, when with some, it comes back to haunt some of them....

jd

[April15]

An Acorn is similar to an unfertilized egg :D

but when in the ground, given a weeks worth of watering, it is similar to the embryo/fetus, as a seedling....

does it have the same monitary worth as a full grown oak tree? Probably not in the immediate future, but it will some day.....:)

Did you skip over my comment on Bald eagle eggs being protected also, when the bald eagle was on the endangered species list?

All I can say is that a fetus is a human being growing inside of the mother.

Some have their cutoffs of when it is morally wrong to terminate a pregnancy, some say there should never be any terminations of pregnancy....I am not putting a dog in that fight right now missleman....

I only want to make certain that we all don't go around trying to fool ourselves in to thinking that a fetus is not a human being, because it is a human being with it's own genetic footprint, it's own separately marked DNA.

The sooner we all accept the science on this, the better for all of us, in my opinon....because it could reduce abortions.....going around telling people that the pregnancy is nothing but a group of cells similar to ones toenail is a copout, and makes it to where no one needs to use birth control at all, because if the gal gets pregnant, she can just go and cut her toenail off....

it is more complicated than such...

Also, for the women that have aborted...some tend not to heal because they are never able to mourn their loss....if it is just a glob of cells, why do they need to mourn...and many do need to mourn, but end up going back to work the next day after the abortion and are forced to just forget about it....it was just a toenail removed type thinking process...and it is much more than that...if not when they aborted, 10 years down the road, when with some, it comes back to haunt some of them....

jd
JD,
Your dissertation is but a sad reflection on the truths of life and death. That people are so concerned with everybody else's business is not good for society as a whole.

[JohnDoe]

JD,
Your dissertation is but a sad reflection on the truths of life and death. That people are so concerned with everybody else's business is not good for society as a whole.
?
please explain?

jd

[Kathianne]

?
please explain?

jd

Umm, the post you responded to is a case in point of why I rep'd you, moments ago. :lol:

[Said1]

An Acorn is similar to an unfertilized egg :D

but when in the ground, given a weeks worth of watering, it is similar to the embryo/fetus, as a seedling

Those damn squirrels! Murders!

[Missileman]

An Acorn is similar to an unfertilized egg :D

No, an acorn is like a fertilized egg.


but when in the ground, given a weeks worth of watering, it is similar to the embryo/fetus, as a seedling....

No, a seedling is akin to a baby, not a fetus.


Did you skip over my comment on Bald eagle eggs being protected also, when the bald eagle was on the endangered species list?

In truth I just ignored it as it's not relevant to the discussion. Since birds don't carry their young until birth, efforts to increase their numbers would have to include nests and eggs. It's not a statement about an egg being a bird. In fact, there's an old saying about not counting chicks (babies) until they've hatched.


All I can say is that a fetus is a human being growing inside of the mother.

I contend that until a certain amount of development has occured, a fetus is not a human being, but potentially one.


I only want to make certain that we all don't go around trying to fool ourselves in to thinking that a fetus is not a human being, because it is a human being with it's own genetic footprint, it's own separately marked DNA.

Certain conditions have to exist to qualify life as a human being, not the least of which is a brain. Your unique DNA argument could be applied to a cancer tumor and I'm sure that neither you or I are going to argue that a fetus and a tumor are on equal footing.


The sooner we all accept the science on this, the better for all of us, in my opinon....because it could reduce abortions.....going around telling people that the pregnancy is nothing but a group of cells similar to ones toenail is a copout, and makes it to where no one needs to use birth control at all, because if the gal gets pregnant, she can just go and cut her toenail off....

it is more complicated than such...

Also, for the women that have aborted...some tend not to heal because they are never able to mourn their loss....if it is just a glob of cells, why do they need to mourn...and many do need to mourn, but end up going back to work the next day after the abortion and are forced to just forget about it....it was just a toenail removed type thinking process...and it is much more than that...if not when they aborted, 10 years down the road, when with some, it comes back to haunt some of them....

jd

I'm all for reducing the numbers of abortions. Increased education in the use of contraceptives is paramount to that goal.

[April15]

?
please explain?

jdWhat you wrote is the truth. It is sad that people spend more time minding other peoples business than their own.

[JohnDoe]

Those damn squirrels! Murders!

nahhhhhhhh, they are eating the acorns before they are brought in to fruition with water and dirt....like us eating unfertilized chicken eggs imo....

Besides the fact that acorns are not a living animal or creature or human with a brain....., nor is flour in a cake that misselman mentioned.

jd

[Said1]

nahhhhhhhh, they are eating the acorns before they are brought in to fruition with water and dirt....like us eating unfertilized chicken eggs imo....



You'll argue about anything, won't you?

[JohnDoe]

No, an acorn is like a fertilized egg.



No, a seedling is akin to a baby, not a fetus.

no, not really, and i should not have used the example as i did, because an acorn and flour are both inanimate.



In truth I just ignored it as it's not relevant to the discussion. Since birds don't carry their young until birth, efforts to increase their numbers would have to include nests and eggs. It's not a statement about an egg being a bird. In fact, there's an old saying about not counting chicks (babies) until they've hatched.

the fine was the same as harming an eagle....with good reason.



I contend that until a certain amount of development has occured, a fetus is not a human being, but potentially one.

When a child to be reaches the FOETUS stage of life, they have their hands and feet and torso and legs and eyes ,and brain and heart and kidneys and bladder and liver cells are all in the proper position...the foetus is a fully formed human being, just needs time to finish growing at that point....this happens at around 12 weeks...before this stage is the embryo stage, where the child to be is not fully formed

Certain conditions have to exist to qualify life as a human being, not the least of which is a brain. Your unique DNA argument could be applied to a cancer tumor and I'm sure that neither you or I are going to argue that a fetus and a tumor are on equal footing.

The cancer tumor if in the mother, will have the DNA of the mother...my toenail will have my DNA.... the Baby to be, HAS ITS OWN DNA...separate of the mother. There is absolutely NO COMPARISON of a tumor and an embryo or a foetus, NONE. A cancer tumor can not produce a human being, it can not form a body and organs and brain etc....

I'm all for reducing the numbers of abortions. Increased education in the use of contraceptives is paramount to that goal.

why bother using contraceptives at all? What are you trying to prevent?


hmmmmm, a pregnancy perhaps? ;)

Definition of Pregnancy

Pregnancy: The state of carrying a developing embryo or fetus within the female body. This condition can be indicated by positive results on an over-the-counter urine test, and confirmed through a blood test, ultrasound, detection of fetal heartbeat, or an X-ray. Pregnancy lasts for about nine months, measured from the date of the woman's last menstrual period (LMP). It is conventionally divided into three trimesters, each roughly three months long.

The most important tasks of basic fetal cell differentiation occur during the first trimester, so any harm done to the fetus during this period is most likely to result in miscarriage or serious disability. There is little to no chance that a first-trimester fetus can survive outside the womb, even with the best hospital care. Its systems are simply too undeveloped. This stage truly ends with the phenomenon of quickening: the mother's first perception of fetal movement. It is in the first trimester that some women experience "morning sickness," a form of nausea on awaking that usually passes within an hour. The breasts also begin to prepare for nursing, and painful soreness from hardening milk glands may result. As the pregnancy progresses, the mother may experience many physical and emotional changes, ranging from increased moodiness to darkening of the skin in various areas. During the second trimester, the fetus undergoes a remarkable series of developments. Its physical parts become fully distinct and at least somewhat operational. With the best medical care, a second-trimester fetus born prematurely has at least some chance of survival, although developmental delays and other handicaps may emerge later. As the fetus grows in size, the mother's pregnant state will begin to be obvious. In the third trimester, the fetus enters the final stage of preparation for birth. It increases rapidly in weight, as does the mother. As the end of the pregnancy nears, there may be discomfort as the fetus moves into position in the woman's lower abdomen. Edema (swelling of the ankles), back pain, and balance problems are sometimes experienced during this time period. Most women are able to go about their usual activities until the very last days or weeks of pregnancy, including non-impact exercise and work. During the final days, some feel too much discomfort to continue at a full pace, although others report greatly increased energy just before the birth. Pregnancy ends when the birth process begins.



In Common Law, which we followed here in America in the early days, abortion was not against the law if done before quickening, before the baby moves and is formed, which is right after the first trimester...12 weeks, when the foetus STAGE is reached....these abortions were mostly done thru prescriptions/drugs back then that forced a miscarriage....after quickening it was a felony to have an abortion.... then some evangelicals got involved and tried to have abortions banned altogether from common law as permitable...i believe their movement was successful and it was finally changed in common law...and the movement succeeded somewhat here in America too....

Without a pregnancy, without the zygote, and without the embryo stage and without the foetus stage, there would be no newborn stage or toddler stage or pubescent stage or adolescent stage or adult stage or senior stage of the human being's life....embryo and foetus are just stages in a human's growth...

Can't have a newborn unless you had an embryo, and a fetus....first.

These stages are not disconnected, but intertwined and a necessity for us, to become us....it is much more than flour in a cake missleman....and i believe strongly that we need to stop pretending and making excuses as if it is merely flour to make a cake....it's not, and it is NOT as easy as you may think for women to make the decision to abort...it is a very hard decision, I am certain for many of them....maybe some have had their feelings WAXED COLD and it is simple as cutting ones toenail, but my bet is that this IS NOT the case with many of the women facing an unwanted pregnancy.

jd

[Missileman]

why bother using contraceptives at all? What are you trying to prevent?


hmmmmm, a pregnancy perhaps? ;)

jd

Having a "duh" moment aren't you?

If there is no unwanted pregnancy there is no need for an abortion except to prevent the birth of a catastrophically disabled/deformed baby or to save the mother's life.

BTW, if I'm not mistaken, cancer cells have mutated (unique) DNA.

[JohnDoe]

an embryo/ foetus is a human being, just not fully developed....

therefore, i can truely understand why some feel that its ''worth'' is not the same as a baby that has been ''born'' and taken its first breath...

we are trained to reason this way sorta.... to rank one's worth.... a guy or non pregnant woman would probably give up their seat on a crowed bus to let a pregnant woman sit down....why, cuz she's carrying a child....

if a house was on fire and there was a man and a pregnant woman in the house and a fireman had a choice to only save one of them....he would probably save the pregnant woman first....she subconciously ranks as 2 humans....

a fertility clinic during/after katrina got flooded....the rescuers help all the people there to safety first, then they returned and rescued the frozen embryos.... those born came first, but the embryos came next, they had ''worth'' as humans, but less than a born human admittingly.....

yes, even born humans are not always equal in worth in emergency situations...save a child before a 95 year old parent if the boats going over a waterfall and only one could be saved....the child is worth more because they have their life ahead of them, the 95 yr old has already had a fairly full life on earth....

so. i can understand how some people view an unborn child as having less worth than a child that was born....but can also see how others do not, and see them as equal, because you can't have one (a child/baby) without the other. (am embryo/fetus).

BUT there is ONE THING that i am certain on, a fetus IS MOST CERTAINLY a human being....just a human being that has not achieved personhood...has not been delivered or the first breath taken.....

Adam in the Bible, although fully formed as a human being out of the earth by God, did not have life as a person, until God gave him his first breath...God breathed life into him it says.... so, to a degree even the religious can have things to argue about regarding this issue or worth....

regardless of all of this...an embryo/fetus is most certainly a separate human being....only in its earliest stages....it is not a dog, cat, monkey etc....and it is not the mother.

jd

[Missileman]

an embryo/ foetus is a human being, just not fully developed....

therefore, i can truely understand why some feel that its ''worth'' is not the same as a baby that has been ''born'' and taken its first breath...

we are trained to reason this way sorta.... to rank one's worth.... a guy or non pregnant woman would probably give up their seat on a crowed bus to let a pregnant woman sit down....why, cuz she's carrying a child....

if a house was on fire and there was a man and a pregnant woman in the house and a fireman had a choice to only save one of them....he would probably save the pregnant woman first....she subconciously ranks as 2 humans....

a fertility clinic during/after katrina got flooded....the rescuers help all the people there to safety first, then they returned and rescued the frozen embryos.... those born came first, but the embryos came next, they had ''worth'' as humans, but less than a born human admittingly.....

yes, even born humans are not always equal in worth in emergency situations...save a child before a 95 year old parent if the boats going over a waterfall and only one could be saved....the child is worth more because they have their life ahead of them, the 95 yr old has already had a fairly full life on earth....

so. i can understand how some people view an unborn child as having less worth than a child that was born....but can also see how others do not, and see them as equal, because you can't have one (a child/baby) without the other. (am embryo/fetus).

BUT there is ONE THING that i am certain on, a fetus IS MOST CERTAINLY a human being....just a human being that has not achieved personhood...has not been delivered or the first breath taken.....

Adam in the Bible, although fully formed as a human being out of the earth by God, did not have life as a person, until God gave him his first breath...God breathed life into him it says.... so, to a degree even the religious can have things to argue about regarding this issue or worth....

regardless of all of this...an embryo/fetus is most certainly a separate human being....only in its earliest stages....it is not a dog, cat, monkey etc....and it is not the mother.

jd

This has nothing at all to do with worth and everything to do with what constitutes a human being. Your opinion includes a couple cells that approximately 15% of the time becomes nothing at all and is discarded by a woman's body.

IMO, there are prerequisites to achieve human being (person) status.

[JohnDoe]

This has nothing at all to do with worth and everything to do with what constitutes a human being. Your opinion includes a couple cells that approximately 15% of the time becomes nothing at all and is discarded by a woman's body.

IMO, there are prerequisites to achieve human being (person) status.


nope, it is a human being...SCIENCE proves such.... it is not fully developed yet, but most certainly it is a human.....there is no arguing, there is no leeway or doubt or anything.... a fetus in a female human, IS A HUMAN....period.

those human cells that are discarded 15% of the time are also the cells of a human being....at it's EARLIEST stage....this occurs before the 2nd week of pregnancy for the most part and the baby is not developed in to an embryo or a fetus yet....but it is most certainly a human being that is being miscarried or naturally aborted. Test can tell the mother if she is going to deliver a boy or girl now at less than 4 weeks in to the pregnancy....

this is where you and others sound silly to me....so afraid to admit an actual fact, that the developing baby is a human being....as i said before, it may be a human that has not been fully developed or born yet (delivered and breathing), or has not achieved any rights as far as personal rights in the constitution yet...but the fetus is most certainly a separate, human being.

That's just fact mm.....

jd

[Missileman]

nope, it is a human being...SCIENCE proves such.... it is not fully developed yet, but most certainly it is a human.....there is no arguing, there is no leeway or doubt or anything.... a fetus in a female human, IS A HUMAN....period.

those human cells that are discarded 15% of the time are also the cells of a human being....at it's EARLIEST stage....this occurs before the 2nd week of pregnancy for the most part and the baby is not developed in to an embryo or a fetus yet....but it is most certainly a human being that is being miscarried or naturally aborted. Test can tell the mother if she is going to deliver a boy or girl now at less than 4 weeks in to the pregnancy....

this is where you and others sound silly to me....so afraid to admit an actual fact, that the developing baby is a human being....as i said before, it may be a human that has not been fully developed or born yet (delivered and breathing), or has not achieved any rights as far as personal rights in the constitution yet...but the fetus is most certainly a separate, human being.

That's just fact mm.....

jd

It's not a fact, it's your opinion.

A significant amount of development has to occur before an embryo becomes a human being. An embryo isn't recognized legally as a human being until such development has occurred. You're broadstroking without applying any sense. Your argument is as silly as calling flour "cake" because that's what it might eventually become.

[JohnDoe]

It's not a fact, it's your opinion.

A significant amount of development has to occur before an embryo becomes a human being. An embryo isn't recognized legally as a human being until such development has occurred. You're broadstroking without applying any sense. Your argument is as silly as calling flour "cake" because that's what it might eventually become.


it is not recognized as a PERSON, a human that has achieved personhood ...has taken it's first breath,

the fetus is a HUMAN none the less...your terminology is wrong, that's all i am disagreeing with....missleman.

[Missileman]

it is not recognized as a PERSON, a human that has achieved personhood ...has taken it's first breath,

the fetus is a HUMAN none the less...your terminology is wrong, that's all i am disagreeing with....missleman.

The fetus achieves personhood legally and logically well before it draws it's first breath. It is well after conception though. And IMO, human being and person are synonymous.

[My Winter Storm]

if a house was on fire and there was a man and a pregnant woman in the house and a fireman had a choice to only save one of them....he would probably save the pregnant woman first....she subconciously ranks as 2 humans....

No one would save a pregnant woman because she ranks as two people. They would save the women over the man because the woman is pregnant, and it is the 'right' thing to do. She is defenseless and less likely to escape herself.

[PostmodernProphet]

IMO, there are prerequisites to achieve human being (person) status.

taking care to avoid being arbitrary and irrational, can you name those prerequisites?......

[Missileman]

taking care to avoid being arbitrary and irrational, can you name those prerequisites?......

For starters, the existence of a brain. The brain is what allows us to think, communicate, have emotions to a degree that sets us apart from other animals. Agree so far?

[PostmodernProphet]

For starters, the existence of a brain. The brain is what allows us to think, communicate, have emotions to a degree that sets us apart from other animals. Agree so far?

I do not agree that an unborn fetus does not have a brain while a birthed child does......in addition, the brain does not spring into existence in a single day, it develops over a period of time....by what criteria do you measure "brain" to distinguish between the organ a "human being" has and the organ that precedes it.....try again.....

please keep in mind that a standard which is used to distinguish a being which has legal rights and one which does not may not be arbitrary under the law.....a standard which is chosen at random is by definition, arbitrary......

[JohnDoe]

For starters, the existence of a brain. The brain is what allows us to think, communicate, have emotions to a degree that sets us apart from other animals. Agree so far?

FYI

First Trimester Pregnancy Week By Week: Monitor Each Pregnancy Week
Each pregnancy week unfolds new developments in the fetus and changes in the mother's body and emotions. To ensure proper health of the baby and mother, there is need to monitor pregnancy week by week. This article guides you through each pregnancy week in first trimester pregnancy. It is important to monitor your health and each baby stage during pregnancy to have a safe, worry free delivery. The pregnancy week by week information below will help you tide over stage 1 pregnancy.

Week 1 to week 13 make up the first stage of pregnancy.

Week 1
The embryo has not yet been conceived, since this is the start of the menstrual cycle.
Week 2
The mother's uterus is developing blood supply in preparation for the embryo.
Week 3
The sperm and egg fuse, creating an embryo. This is the start of pregnancy, the time when life begins to take shape in the mother's womb. The father's chromosomes are responsible for the baby's gender.
Some women may see bleeding when the fused egg moves into the uterus.
Week 4
The fused egg, or blastocyst, is attached deep inside the uterus. It keeps dividing to form tissues in the uterus, both for the baby and the mother.
The mother may feel fatigue and tenderness in the breasts. Don't be disappointed thinking you did not conceive, the symptoms reveal themselves later!
Week 5
Your little baby is just a bunch of cells right now. The rudimentary cells will form the nerves, brain, spinal cord etc. Some of these cells will form the heart and blood vessels, muscles, bones and other tissue. Some cells have already started positioning themselves to form the heart. A long way to go yet!
You may feel nausea, the first sign of pregnancy. Cheers! Time to purchase a pregnancy test kit and confirm a visit from the stock.
Week 6
The embryo is now just an inch in length, but the things going on within it will amaze you! Eyes and ears have started developing, and blood is being pumped by the few celled heart! The first cells of the limbs appear.
Nausea and vomiting has intensified, and you may wish you had never conceived. Don't worry, this lasts only till start of second trimester pregnancy.
This is also the time when most miscarriages take place. If you notice spotting, bleeding, cramps in the stomach, go to your doctor immediately.
Week 7
Pregnancy 7 weeks sees the formation of tiny legs, arms, eyes and nose. The brain is also developing.
This pregnancy week will see some weight change, either weight loss or weight gain. Continuous pregnancy week by week monitoring will keep the baby healthy.
If you are carrying twins, you may now feel the first symptoms like water retention in limbs, great exhaustion, rapid weight gain and severe morning sickness.
Week 8
The little one has a heartbeat now, and this pregnancy week is safe for getting the first ultrasound of different stages of pregnancy trimester.
You may face problems like acne and rashes due to hormone changes, but they're just temporary.
Week 9
Bones and cartilage start developing in the fetus, and webbed feet and hands are formed.
Indigestion and gas may trouble would be mothers. Take it easy, and eat what you feel like.
Week 10
The little baby is almost fully formed, from the tiny limbs to the heart, brain and face.
Mom, you may feel troubled by spider veins and feel cranky - relax, its part of the package. Go out for a walk, read a book, sway to your favourite song.and don't forget the pregnancy week by week monitoring of the baby! Especially be alert for unusual weight gain!
Week 11
This pregnancy week sees the baby develop rapidly.
Many parents may opt for tests to check the health of the baby during this pregnancy week. But do not go for a test you feel is unnecessary.
Week 12
Almost all the fetus' limbs are developed. This is the time to find out if you will have a boy or a girl; the sexual organs have started developing.
Mom, there is good news and bad news. While nausea is almost gone, and your energy levels are coming back, you may have headaches due to greater pumping of blood by your enlarged heart.
Week 13
The baby's digestive system has developed.
Nausea is gone, so is tiredness - welcome to a period of peace!

Reading about pregnancy week by week development helps you understand the miracle of birth. At this stage of pregnancy development, chances of miscarriage have dropped. Now you can look forward to second stage of pregnancy. Of course, we need not add, continue the pregnancy week monitoring. But don't forget to enjoy this special time with life growing inside you!

[JohnDoe]

missleman, please begin where i have linked and hit NEXT WEEK to view the stages of the baby's growth....

http://www.babycenter.com/fetal-development-images-6-weeks

[Missileman]

I do not agree that an unborn fetus does not have a brain while a birthed child does......

I have no idea what you are disagreeing with...I wrote nothing like that. I thought we were going to see if we could reach a concensus about what constitutes a human being. I contend that a human being must posess a brain...agree or disagree?