Using HHO to get better MPG

[Monkeybone]

www.watertogas.com

no, it's not water togas.

i have heard of these before, in fact Nuke and i are planning on building one. but this is the first one that explains it fairly well and doesn't cost you an arm and a leg.

i think that it is cool and yes i know that it's been around since the 70's i think that my mom even wrote a high school paper on it or something...maybe college...i don't know, i don't listen to the ramblings of old ppl that much.

[crin63]

i don't know, i don't listen to the ramblings of old ppl that much.

You should, theres usually some good nuggets of information from old folk.

[jackass]

I thought I just saw a Yahoo ABC video about this saying it was a hoax...???

[Little-Acorn]

Sure, I'll try it.

Right after those magnets I put on my fuel lines start delivering the 40% boost in gas mileage THEY promised.

Then I'll drive over to where a fellow says he has a magnificent bridge to sell me, for the money I saved on gas.....

[crin63]

It sounds interesting to me but be careful with the hydrogen/oxygen mix. Its quite explosive. I rebuilt a turbine generator that blew up from a hydrogen/oxygen imbalance.

[Monkeybone]

i know...i've seen videos of ppl running it and even know someone that has done it. their 6.0L truck went from 14mpg to 19 mpg.

i more hesitant to do something like that to my daily driver.

[Little-Acorn]

Ummm, fellas.....

If there were something that could boost the fuel mileage of cars and trucks by that much, in such a simple way, it would be earth-shaking headlines all over the world.

Why do you suppose it hasn't been?

(Enter your favorite conspiracy/bribery/oilcompaniesbuyingitoutandkeepingitsecret theory here. And after you do, please post the slightest EVIDENCE you have for believing it.)

Ahem... HHO doesn't work.

Do a bunch of trial runs with your car or truck, on the freeway and around town. And WRITE DOWN IN INK the gas mileage you get. Then convert to HHO and do it again, and post the results here.

Until you do that, you've got nothing but talk.

Nothing.

[Monkeybone]

So the guy I know is just flat out lying to me Acorn? On what basis do you claim that it doesn't work? Because there hasn't been "earth-shaking headlines" form a"ll over the world." Just becasue someone famous hasn't endorsed something doesn't mean that it doesn't work.

and if this won't work, or at least help your car, then why would they think that a pure hydrogen (which would be more explosive if something happened to the holding tank) car would?

[Monkeybone]

wasn't meaning to sound like as ass or anything. but i will write it in ink and scan/take a picture of my records to show when i do it.

[KitchenKitten99]

It sounds interesting to me but be careful with the hydrogen/oxygen mix. Its quite explosive. I rebuilt a turbine generator that blew up from a hydrogen/oxygen imbalance.

There's also the hydrogen bomb...

and didn't about 6 or so Zepplins explode because of the hydrogen that filled the 'balloon' part, igniting the flammable covering, and sending hundreds of people to their deaths each time?

though you'd think that after even the first 2 times, someone would think "hey, this might not be a great idea...", instead of continuing on 4 more times with the same results...

[Nukeman]

There's also the hydrogen bomb...

and didn't about 6 or so Zepplins explode because of the hydrogen that filled the 'balloon' part, igniting the flammable covering, and sending hundreds of people to their deaths each time?

though you'd think that after even the first 2 times, someone would think "hey, this might not be a great idea...", instead of continuing on 4 more times with the same results...

First. it is HHO or Browns gas not pure hydrogen.

Second. the HHO is produced "as needed" by the running of the engine and the battery.

Third. If the engine shuts off so does production..

Fourth. It is NOT a fuel replacement. It is injected into the "AIR INTAKE MANIFOLD" What this does is augment the internal combustion so the engine will use LESS fuel to make the same explosion in the piston chamber. The computer in your car will automaticly adjust for the increase in power by reducing the amount of fuel sprayed into the "fuel injection system". If you have an older car with a carburator you will have to use trial and error to determine the amount of fuel you can decrease.


the thing I find amazing is that people are screaming for alternative fuel system. What the heck does everyone think a "fuel cell" car runs on. Yep thats right HYDROGEN. Any combustion engine will run on hydrogen that is why auto manufatures would like to go that route, that way they don't have to reinvent the wheel.

This is a proven augmentation to your system. It causes no damage to your vehicle and if your able to get an additional 20-40% mpg isn't that worth it.. or at least to try. We are only talking about 50$ to make your own.

Little acorn, I can tell you first hand that Monkey is right about our friend going from 14 mpg in his full size 6.0 liter to 19 mpg. this is with his first generation generator. He has since modified this and is currently testing his new one...

[glockmail]

Nuke:

I took a semi-serious look at this about a month ago, and started a thread, but no one was interested then.

To me it makes sense, since you are using electrolysis to make hydrogen and oxygen. The electricity is supplied by the alternator, which is powered by the engine. It’s not “perpetual motion” since you are using chemical energy. (Correct me if I’m wrong on that, Little Acorn.)

The problem that I have with it that there is no “throttle” on the production of the brown’s gas. For instance, coasting down hill, the alternator will continue to make electrical power, hence a lot of gas will be made and not burned in the engine. So it will build up. When you press the accelerator to go up the next hill you’ll get a giant slug of the stuff dumped into the engine, and “boom”.

Second, and I know this from my NO days, is that if you have a fuel-O2 mixture too rich in O2 you’ll burn out the engine due to excessive temperatures. I don’t know enough about the chemistry to say if this is a problem with brown’s gas.

So unless someone has some electronic control to stop the production when power is not needed, or better yet a storage system to collect the gas then meter it to the engine, I see this thing as being a nice big bomb under your hood. The metering system has to be integrated into the engine’s electronic controls as well.

[Hagbard Celine]

The way to go is liquid propane. LP filler stations are ubiquitous, plus LP is clean burning (no carbon deposits in your engine), it burns at a higher octane than even Premium and it's cheaper ~$2.90 per gallon if you lie and avoid paying the road tax on it.
Converting your vehicle will cost ~$150.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1972-05-01/Convert-Your-Car-To-Propane.aspx

You could even get the LP company to deliver a 6-mo. or year supply to your house and you could fill up there AND avoid the road tax by claiming you'll use it to heat your house. ;)

[Monkeybone]

Nuke:

I took a semi-serious look at this about a month ago, and started a thread, but no one was interested then. Sorry glock, must've missed it or just forgot.


To me it makes sense, since you are using electrolysis to make hydrogen and oxygen. The electricity is supplied by the alternator, which is powered by the engine. It’s not “perpetual motion” since you are using chemical energy. (Correct me if I’m wrong on that, Little Acorn.) i think that you are right that it is not perpetual motion, especially since you have to keep adding water.


The problem that I have with it that there is no “throttle” on the production of the brown’s gas. For instance, coasting down hill, the alternator will continue to make electrical power, hence a lot of gas will be made and not burned in the engine. So it will build up. When you press the accelerator to go up the next hill you’ll get a giant slug of the stuff dumped into the engine, and “boom”. but the gas is always being burned. it goes along with the air and the gas that is slowly going into your engine as well. we even found a guy that had T'd his line so that when it was low pressure, such as idleing and cruising, it went straight into his throttle body i believe, so that way it was running on almost nothing but Brown's. and then when he hit the gas it closed off that end and the stronger vacuum of the air intake brought the gas into there so it mixed with the oxygen that was going into engine.


Second, and I know this from my NO days, is that if you have a fuel-O2 mixture too rich in O2 you’ll burn out the engine due to excessive temperatures. I don’t know enough about the chemistry to say if this is a problem with brown’s gas. i also had this thought. that is why i am apprehensive about trying it on my daily driver.


So unless someone has some electronic control to stop the production when power is not needed, or better yet a storage system to collect the gas then meter it to the engine, I see this thing as being a nice big bomb under your hood. The metering system has to be integrated into the engine’s electronic controls as well. have seen alot of the systems that they ran switches into the cab so taht they could turn it off and on. those were probably mostly though as not to drain the battery. so short of shutting off before you know that your drive is ending, i don't know.

[glockmail]

The way to go is liquid propane. LP filler stations are ubiquitous, plus LP is clean burning (no carbon deposits in your engine), it burns at a higher octane than even Premium and it's cheaper ~$2.90 per gallon if you lie and avoid paying the road tax on it.
Converting your vehicle will cost ~$150.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1972-05-01/Convert-Your-Car-To-Propane.aspx

You could even get the LP company to deliver a 6-mo. or year supply to your house and you could fill up there AND avoid the road tax by claiming you'll use it to heat your house. ;)

Propane has a lot less BTU/ gallon, so multiply your cost by about 1.3 or 1.4 or so to equate it to gasoline. Then you have your transfer pump as well as installation of a propane tank in a vehicle. Both are likely very expensive.

[Hagbard Celine]

Propane has a lot less BTU/ gallon, so multiply your cost by about 1.3 or 1.4 or so to equate it to gasoline. Then you have your transfer pump as well as installation of a propane tank in a vehicle. Both are likely very expensive.

The parts aren't expensive. You can get used tanks from propane dealerships very cheaply and the conversion kit runs ~$100-$150. Everything I've read about it says that the mileage disparity is negligible--that you get about the same with gasoline.

[Monkeybone]

The parts aren't expensive. You can get used tanks from propane dealerships very cheaply and the conversion kit runs ~$100-$150. Everything I've read about it says that the mileage disparity is negligible--that you get about the same with gasoline.

propane gets awesome gas milage. but you lose power. you also have to convert a couple dif things on your engine and you completely switch over to it, it's not a mix i believe.

[Hagbard Celine]

propane gets awesome gas milage. but you lose power. you also have to convert a couple dif things on your engine and you completely switch over to it, it's not a mix i believe.

Me, my brother and my Dad are looking into converting an old '94 Land Rover to LP. If it works well and it's saves money, I'm going to sell my bimmer and get an old convertible and convert it to LP. It'll be sweet.

[Monkeybone]

Me, my brother and my Dad are looking into converting an old '94 Land Rover to LP. If it works well and it's saves money, I'm going to sell my bimmer and get an old convertible and convert it to LP. It'll be sweet.

that would be sweet. i like those old Land Rovers. but again, specially with a convertible, you need to be cautios of where you put the tank, you wouldn't wanna get rea-ended

yah, that is why i don't wanna do it to my daily driver. even though i could take it out, ya never know

[glockmail]

.... but the gas is always being burned. it goes along with the air and the gas that is slowly going into your engine as well. we even found a guy that had T'd his line so that when it was low pressure, such as idleing and cruising, it went straight into his throttle body i believe, so that way it was running on almost nothing but Brown's. and then when he hit the gas it closed off that end and the stronger vacuum of the air intake brought the gas into there so it mixed with the oxygen that was going into engine.
.....

Where I drive there are several long hills, up to 8 miles long x 3000' drop, that my vehicle would accellerate to 40 mph over the speed limit or so if I didn't downshift and keep on the brake. In fact on my Explorer I had to install "hot rod" brakes because the OEM brakes kept warping.

This system would make tons of browns exactly when I don't need it. If a system is going to be efficient it has to store energy and make it available when you need it. That's how a hybrid works, and they are only 30% or so efficient. A gas generation- storage system could be much more efficient than that, and probably simpler because you don't have an expensive electric motor.

[Missileman]

The parts aren't expensive. You can get used tanks from propane dealerships very cheaply and the conversion kit runs ~$100-$150. Everything I've read about it says that the mileage disparity is negligible--that you get about the same with gasoline.

Back in the early 80s, they converted several of our military maintenance vehicles(6-pack dualies with a cargo box) to LP. They put a huge tank(80 gallon I think) in the back and once they got the conversion kits installed properly(the jets weren't installed right the first time) they ran great. You could drive several hundred miles before having to refill. At the time I think they were getting LP for less than $0.50 a gallon.

[Monkeybone]

Where I drive there are several long hills, up to 8 miles long x 3000' drop, that my vehicle would accellerate to 40 mph over the speed limit or so if I didn't downshift and keep on the brake. In fact on my Explorer I had to install "hot rod" brakes because the OEM brakes kept warping.

This system would make tons of browns exactly when I don't need it. If a system is going to be efficient it has to store energy and make it available when you need it. That's how a hybrid works, and they are only 30% or so efficient. A gas generation- storage system could be much more efficient than that, and probably simpler because you don't have an expensive electric motor.
hmmm. that is understandable, becasue it wouldn't make sense to just turn it off, and then back on and have to start the whole system up again. i don't see why you couldn't install a storage system.

i actually think that is how the Honda one works. it is a hydrogen/fuel-cell hybrid.

[glockmail]

The parts aren't expensive. You can get used tanks from propane dealerships very cheaply and the conversion kit runs ~$100-$150. Everything I've read about it says that the mileage disparity is negligible--that you get about the same with gasoline. Oops- I was wrong. I was thinging of fuel oil vs propane, as I was considering this conversion for my cabin. Propane is actually more energy dense than gasoline, by about 6%:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-higher-calorific-values-d_169.html

I don't think that you can just mount a standard tank in a car though, due to DOT regulations. It seems to me that you're making a nice big bomb if you get into an accident and crush the tank.

Also you've got the problem with transfer from your home tank to your car.

[Hagbard Celine]

Oops- I was wrong. I was thinging of fuel oil vs propane, as I was considering this conversion for my cabin. Propane is actually more energy dense than gasoline, by about 6%:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-higher-calorific-values-d_169.html

I don't think that you can just mount a standard tank in a car though, due to DOT regulations. It seems to me that you're making a nice big bomb if you get into an accident and crush the tank.

Also you've got the problem with transfer from your home tank to your car.

You have to buy a converter and you have to use vehicle-rated tanks like the kind that are used on forklifts and sich.

[glockmail]

hmmm. that is understandable, becasue it wouldn't make sense to just turn it off, and then back on and have to start the whole system up again. i don't see why you couldn't install a storage system.

i actually think that is how the Honda one works. it is a hydrogen/fuel-cell hybrid.
A fuel cell generates electricity. It sounds like the Honda generates hydrogen, dumps the O2, puts the H2 into a cell, generates electricity, and finally drives an electric motor. Why go though all that complexity if they could just burn the H2O2 directly in the engine?

There is another "hybrid" system that stores brake energy and is twice as efficient, because it is completely mechanical. It was first proposed in the 70's, went nowhere as usual but has recently found its way into Formula One cars. http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1580/

[glockmail]

You have to buy a converter and you have to use vehicle-rated tanks like the kind that are used on forklifts and sich.
A forklift isn't DOT rated. I don't know what the requirements are, but it can't be that simple.

[Hagbard Celine]

A fuel cell generates electricity. It sounds like the Honda generates hydrogen, dumps the O2, puts the H2 into a cell, generates electricity, and finally drives an electric motor. Why go though all that complexity if they could just burn the H2O2 directly in the engine?

There is another "hybrid" system that stores brake energy and is twice as efficient, because it is completely mechanical. It was first proposed in the 70's, went nowhere as usual but has recently found its way into Formula One cars. http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1580/

Recently a guy discovered how to make water burn by vibrating the molecules with radio waves. I'm waiting for that to have some kind of real-world use.
http://discovermagazine.com/2007/dec/can-radio-waves-really-make-water-burn

[glockmail]

Recently a guy discovered how to make water burn by vibrating the molecules with radio waves. I'm waiting for that to have some kind of real-world use.
http://discovermagazine.com/2007/dec/can-radio-waves-really-make-water-burn Its just a form of electrolysis without an anode-cathode system. The advantage is that there is less corrosion but then you have the losses in the electronics.

[Hagbard Celine]

Its just a form of electrolysis without an anode-cathode system. The advantage is that there is less corrosion but then you have the losses in the electronics.

Couldn't you just engineer a converter that goes on the fuel line, connected electrically to the battery that emits the frequency and converts the fuel (water) before it's injected into the combustion chamber? Is the "electrolysis" instantaneous or does it take time?

[Monkeybone]

takes a bit of time, not long, but it ain't instantaneous.

for the HHO generators i want to say that you have to let them "charge" for about 10 mins before they start to produce the gas.

[Missileman]

Couldn't you just engineer a converter that goes on the fuel line, connected electrically to the battery that emits the frequency and converts the fuel (water) before it's injected into the combustion chamber? Is the "electrolysis" instantaneous or does it take time?

I would think you could develop a steam turbine generator that would run off the burning salt water that in turn would recharge batteries for/in an electric car. Excess current could be sold back to the power company just like wind-generated.

[glockmail]

Couldn't you just engineer a converter that goes on the fuel line, connected electrically to the battery that emits the frequency and converts the fuel (water) before it's injected into the combustion chamber? Is the "electrolysis" instantaneous or does it take time? The conversion is fast but not instant. Even if it was you're still not taking advantage of a major source of efficiency by stroing gas generated during the braking cycle.

Your post did make me think though. Stored gas could be metered into the engine by the existing electronic controls. All you have to do is read off the injector signal, and meter gas in proportion to it. Of course you need master's degrees in electronics, chemistry and thermodynamics to figure it all out but that would be the basic method to make it work.

[Hagbard Celine]

The conversion is fast but not instant. Even if it was you're still not taking advantage of a major source of efficiency by stroing gas generated during the braking cycle.

Your post did make me think though. Stored gas could be metered into the engine by the existing electronic controls. All you have to do is read off the injector signal, and meter gas in proportion to it. Of course you need master's degrees in electronics, chemistry and thermodynamics to figure it all out but that would be the basic method to make it work.

Basically you have to be Tony Stark.
You wouldn't even have to use gas. You could use a spring-loaded piston to store the energy used in the braking process that could be used to "launch" the car mechanically instead of injecting fuel into the engine. "Take-off" and actually getting rolling is where the most fuel is used right? The brakes could also be used as turbines to store electricity for a battery cell.
All of this stuff already exists. If I were a paranoid guy :tinfoil:, I'd look at the oil lobby to see why these technologies aren't already on the road.

[Monkeybone]

Basically you have to be Tony Stark.
You wouldn't even have to use gas. You could use a spring-loaded piston to store the energy used in the braking process that could be used to "launch" the car mechanically instead of injecting fuel into the engine. "Take-off" and actually getting rolling is where the most fuel is used right? The brakes could also be used as turbines to store electricity for a battery cell.
All of this stuff already exists. If I were a paranoid guy :tinfoil:, I'd look at the oil lobby to see why these technologies aren't already on the road.

short of the hydrogen or some alternative fuel, it is on the road. that is what the hybrids do. "synergy" charging i think they call it.

[glockmail]

Basically you have to be Tony Stark.
You wouldn't even have to use gas. You could use a spring-loaded piston to store the energy used in the braking process that could be used to "launch" the car mechanically instead of injecting fuel into the engine. "Take-off" and actually getting rolling is where the most fuel is used right? The brakes could also be used as turbines to store electricity for a battery cell.
All of this stuff already exists. If I were a paranoid guy :tinfoil:, I'd look at the oil lobby to see why these technologies aren't already on the road.

Post 25 has a link that describes a mechanical storage device. I've alway thought that this type of system would be the most practical.

The reason why these types of systems have not come to market is because fuel has been so cheap- even in Europe. Even with the current mass produced hybrids the payoff can easily exceed the life of the car, or at least the length of time that most people keep the car.