College Is Not For Everyone

[Kathianne]

It seems to me that we are making a huge mistake pretending that all can accomplish graduation from post secondary, moreso that all should want to:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200806/college/3




The idea that a university education is for everyone is a destructive myth. An instructor at a “college of last resort” explains why.

by Professor X
In the Basement of the Ivory Tower....


...America, ever-idealistic, seems wary of the vocational-education track. We are not comfortable limiting anyone’s options. Telling someone that college is not for him seems harsh and classist and British, as though we were sentencing him to a life in the coal mines. I sympathize with this stance; I subscribe to the American ideal. Unfortunately, it is with me and my red pen that that ideal crashes and burns.

Sending everyone under the sun to college is a noble initiative. Academia is all for it, naturally. Industry is all for it; some companies even help with tuition costs. Government is all for it; the truly needy have lots of opportunities for financial aid. The media applauds it—try to imagine someone speaking out against the idea. To oppose such a scheme of inclusion would be positively churlish. But one piece of the puzzle hasn’t been figured into the equation, to use the sort of phrase I encounter in the papers submitted by my English 101 students. The zeitgeist of academic possibility is a great inverted pyramid, and its rather sharp point is poking, uncomfortably, a spot just about midway between my shoulder blades.

For I, who teach these low-level, must-pass, no-multiple-choice-test classes, am the one who ultimately delivers the news to those unfit for college: that they lack the most-basic skills and have no sense of the volume of work required; that they are in some cases barely literate; that they are so bereft of schemata, so dispossessed of contexts in which to place newly acquired knowledge, that every bit of information simply raises more questions. They are not ready for high school, some of them, much less for college.

I am the man who has to lower the hammer...

[gabosaurus]

Everybody has the chance and the opportunity to attend college. It depends on what you make of it.
I have known people who attended college solely to attain a degree of some kind. They took the least challenging courses they could find, in the easiest field they could find. Then they goofed off for the next four years. Or else they attended on athletic scholarships and had their dumbed-down course of study selected for them.

Others of us chose a university for its academic standards and record of producing leaders and productive citizens. We forged a tough path (I minored in math) and studied diligently. I came out a much better person than when I started.

I agree that college is not for everyone. Not everyone has the academic capability to move up to a higher level. Others require an immediate income to take care of their families and/or relatives. There are job fields that do not require more than a high school education.

Much of this is decided in high school. There are some who have no desire to learn. They feel the need for immediate gratification of another sort and feel they have nothing to learn. Others feel they have zero chances, and thus have nothing to gain from being in a structured environment.
Some of it is the person. Another factor is their upbringing. If the parents/caregivers do not stress education, or are not around to stress it, the kid is not going to embrace it. This is where you get the malcontents and disciplinary cases.
Others are just lazy. They want everything given to them, and have no desire to earn anything.

[Missileman]

It seems to me that we are making a huge mistake pretending that all can accomplish graduation from post secondary, moreso that all should want to:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200806/college/3

Yep....world needs ditch diggers and burger flippers too.

[Kathianne]

Yep....world needs ditch diggers and burger flippers too.

and roofers, plumbers, electricians, fence erectors, mechanics, welders, etc. Yet these are not encouraged at the secondary level, why not? Not everyone has the ability to finish college, but then again many that do couldn't fix a hinge or sew a button to save their life.

Seamstresses and carpenters make good money, so do plumbers and god knows electricians. Why not encourage those that don't excel at academics to go for the trades?

[darin]

...and strategic planners... :D

Of course, I AM in college, or was, until my move. I might have been the oldest freshman in the history of Pierce College. :)

I'll start skewl again in a few months, I suppose.

Frankly, it's pathetic how most-everyone says "It's JUST a piece of paper, but one you need."

Double-standard. Everyone knows college-educated, moderately or highly-paid bafoons (we even elect them from time to time) and VERY capable ppl who can't even get the interview because of that 'piece of paper'.

:(

[KitchenKitten99]

and roofers, plumbers, electricians, fence erectors, mechanics, welders, etc. Yet these are not encouraged at the secondary level, why not? Not everyone has the ability to finish college, but then again many that do couldn't fix a hinge or sew a button to save their life.

Seamstresses and carpenters make good money, so do plumbers and god knows electricians. Why not encourage those that don't excel at academics to go for the trades?

Totally true. My husband makes $45k/year in his job, and he only graduated HS. He knows his industry inside and out, and could walk onto any job related to what he does if needed. He wants to learn how to operate the large machinery like cranes and such, which is part of his motivation for joining the Army Reserves this fall.

[crin63]

We just talked about this Sunday night. My buddy is a General Manager for a uniform company that supplies uniforms for car dealerships, hospitals and etc..

They are going to start making a college degree a criteria for the drivers that deliver the uniforms. So ditch diggers beware you might be next.

[darin]

I wonder sometimes why "the Left" hasn't started their conspiracy crap about that sorta thing? I mean, if GWB can be behind the oil-price increases for his oil buddies, why isn't Liberal Academia to blame for the mandating? of worthless degrees for people? Just thinking outloud...

[crin63]

and roofers, plumbers, electricians, fence erectors, mechanics, welders, etc. Yet these are not encouraged at the secondary level, why not? Not everyone has the ability to finish college, but then again many that do couldn't fix a hinge or sew a button to save their life.

Seamstresses and carpenters make good money, so do plumbers and god knows electricians. Why not encourage those that don't excel at academics to go for the trades?

I think the Union Carpenter wages are up to almost $35/hr in California plus benefits. But its a young mans game. After 25-30 years of construction you tend to get pretty banged up. Once you get banged up to where you cant do that any more and you're in your mid to late 40's a college degree sure would've been nice.

[MtnBiker]

Everybody has the chance and the opportunity to attend college. It depends on what you make of it.

I find this to be quite interesting. I also agree that everybody has the chance and the opportunity to attend college.

There is a Presidential canidate that would have you believe quite the opposite.


the chance to get a college education should not be a privilege for the wealthy few, but the birthright of every American. That's the change we need in America

link (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/3/20542/43784/234/528616)

The class envy thing is a decades old approach in the left's playbook.

People who want to go to college and make the best of it should have the oppurtunity to do so. However there are several occupations that are needed in our economy that do not require a college education.

[Hagbard Celine]

I find this to be quite interesting. I also agree that everybody has the chance and the opportunity to attend college.

There is a Presidential canidate that would have you believe quite the opposite.



link (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/3/20542/43784/234/528616)

The class envy thing is a decades old approach in the left's playbook.

People who want to go to college and make the best of it should have the oppurtunity to do so. However there are several occupations that are needed in our economy that do not require a college education.

I can't believe that you've found a way to make "every American has the right to an education" into something insidious. :rolleyes: Is there no limit to your partisanship?

[Kathianne]

We just talked about this Sunday night. My buddy is a General Manager for a uniform company that supplies uniforms for car dealerships, hospitals and etc..

They are going to start making a college degree a criteria for the drivers that deliver the uniforms. So ditch diggers beware you might be next.

It's what the author of the piece was referring to. It's silly. Now my brother has been a cop for nearly 30 years. He earned a law enforcement degree before applying. At the suburban district he's in, one cannot become a cop without a BS. That took effect a couple years after he applied. Why does a street cop need a bachelors? Wouldn't a 2 year degree suffice?

What about the meter maids? Seriously, HS diploma should be enough.

How about the persons answering 911? Do they need any diplomas? Guess what, BA/BS required.

[Mr. P]

I think the Union Carpenter wages are up to almost $35/hr in California plus benefits. But its a young mans game. After 25-30 years of construction you tend to get pretty banged up. Once you get banged up to where you cant do that any more and you're in your mid to late 40's a college degree sure would've been nice.

Don't fool yourself...after that many yrs in a trade or profession most employers won't touch you. They assume that's all you know, which is a mistake but that seems to be the way it is. There are other issues also, like being more qualified than the person hiring you...puts the fear of their own job in their mind...been there...the age/experience barrier is alive and well.

[MtnBiker]

I can't believe that you've found a way to make "every American has the right to an education" into something insidious. :rolleyes: Is there no limit to your partisanship?

Gabby and I agree that everyone does have a chance at an education. Obama would have you believe otherwise.

[manu1959]

Gabby and I agree that everyone does have a chance at an education. Obama would have you believe otherwise.

education is an opportunity not a right.....

[MtnBiker]

education is an opportunity not a right.....

Agreed.

[manu1959]

Agreed.

the left seems to think lots of things normal people work for are rights and free......

[Kathianne]

education is an opportunity not a right.....

I've come to the conclusion that it's important that those qualified have the opportunity to complete, we have way too many starting without the desire or ability to complete.

It would be much better use of time and money for those that can't fulfill the requirements to be allowed the opportunity to do what they are talented in.

[MtnBiker]

I've come to the conclusion that it's important that those qualified have the opportunity to complete, we have way too many starting without the desire or ability to complete.

It would be much better use of time and money for those that can't fulfill the requirements to be allowed the opportunity to do what they are talented in.

Kathianne are you referring to vocational schools as compared to universities?

[manu1959]

I've come to the conclusion that it's important that those qualified have the opportunity to complete, we have way too many starting without the desire or ability to complete.

It would be much better use of time and money for those that can't fulfill the requirements to be allowed the opportunity to do what they are talented in.

which is exactly why it is an opportunity not a right or a requirement....

[Kathianne]

Kathianne are you referring to vocational schools as compared to universities?

Yes. Be it auto mechanics, hair design?, any apprenticeship programs available after earning hs diploma.

[MtnBiker]

Yes. Be it auto mechanics, hair design?, any apprenticeship programs available after earning hs diploma.

That seems reasonable. A 2 year program focused on issues of the vocation without the liberal arts, is a very good option for some people.

[Hagbard Celine]

Gabby and I agree that everyone does have a chance at an education. Obama would have you believe otherwise.

There's no difference. You just want to disagree with Obama. Even if a right to a higher education was written in the Constitution, there'd be people who didn't take advantage of it. "Right" or "chance" or "opportunity," whatever synonym you'd like to use--the fact of the matter is that you'll split straws and disagree with Obama no matter what he says. (shrug)

It's such a joke man. He said the same thing you're saying and you're disagreeing with him based on semantics. Way to be divisive. Party lines all the way! Yeah! Americuh!

[crin63]

which is exactly why it is an opportunity not a right or a requirement....

I totally agree with you.

If its made a right then we get to pay for it. Education isn't free. Its not like they will cut out other unnecessary social programs to pay for it. They'll tax me and you. They will say they're gonna tax corporations or the wealthy but that just results in the cost being passed on down to the consumers. So either way I get taxed.

I'm just a lowly banged up former construction worker but both my sons are in college. If they can do it, anyone that really wants to can do it.

[darin]

I don't get why folks are using 'blue-collar' and 'trade' industry as examples of 'alternatives' for non-college folk. I'd bet there are plenty of college drop-outs or non-attendees who have the smarts and wisdom to do very high profile white-collar jobs...senior executive types.

[Mr. P]

That seems reasonable. A 2 year program focused on issues of the vocation without the liberal arts, is a very good option for some people.

Right, what does one need to know about Greek history to repair an air conditioner, fix a car or run electrical wire or......blah....

[Hagbard Celine]

education is an opportunity not a right.....

The right to a chance at an education is something we all already have anyway man.

[Hagbard Celine]

I don't get why folks are using 'blue-collar' and 'trade' industry as examples of 'alternatives' for non-college folk. I'd bet there are plenty of college drop-outs or non-attendees who have the smarts and wisdom to do very high profile white-collar jobs...senior executive types.

Yeah, but you said it yourself, companies won't even give you an interview if you don't have that "piece of paper."

[Hagbard Celine]

Right, what does one need to know about Greek history to repair an air conditioner, fix a car or run electrical wire or......blah....

I think everyone should have some understanding of the arts like literature, history, etc. Otherwise there'd be a huge part of the population with no understanding of who we are or where we came from.

[manu1959]

I totally agree with you.

If its made a right then we get to pay for it. Education isn't free. Its not like they will cut out other unnecessary social programs to pay for it. They'll tax me and you. They will say they're gonna tax corporations or the wealthy but that just results in the cost being passed on down to the consumers. So either way I get taxed.

I'm just a lowly banged up former construction worker but both my sons are in college. If they can do it, anyone that really wants to can do it.

it is why they want education, food, housing, clothing, health care, a car all called rights....because if they can't figure out how to get one they can claim it as a right and the govt.....well the rest of us get to pay for those that darwins therory should be allowed to eliminate.....funny the left is all for darwins therory right up till the moment someone actuall wants to impliment it....

[MtnBiker]

There's no difference. You just want to disagree with Obama. Even if a right to a higher education was written in the Constitution, there'd be people who didn't take advantage of it. "Right" or "chance" or "opportunity," whatever synonym you'd like to use--the fact of the matter is that you'll split straws and disagree with Obama no matter what he says. (shrug)

It's such a joke man. He said the same thing you're saying and you're disagreeing with him based on semantics. Way to be divisive. Party lines all the way! Yeah! Americuh!


There is a big difference. Let's look at the Obama quote again;



the chance to get a college education should not be a privilege for the wealthy few, but the birthright of every American. That's the change we need in America

link (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/3/20542/43784/234/528616)

Obama would have you believe that only the wealthy have the privilege to a chance for a college education. That is where I disagree with him. All people of this country do a have a chance at college education. That means that they may need to take out loans, apply for scholarships or grants, work and pay for school as they go but they can go to school.

[manu1959]

The right to a chance at an education is something we all already have anyway man.

nope......it is sitting there..... sieze the opportunity or don't.....sorry but you don't get a right to a chance either.....

you have the right to the persuit of.......persuit being the key word.....

[Hagbard Celine]

it is why they want education, food, housing, clothing, health care, a car all called rights....because if they can't figure out how to get one they can claim it as a right and the govt.....well the rest of us get to pay for those that darwins therory should be allowed to eliminate.....funny the left is all for darwins therory right up till the moment someone actuall wants to impliment it....

:rolleyes:

[crin63]

My buddy is rated in the top 10 of Porsche mechanics in the country. He works for a top Porsche dealer and he is struggling financially because work is slow. He is going back to college to get his degree so he can do something else.

[Hagbard Celine]

nope......it is sitting there..... sieze the opportunity or don't.....sorry but you don't get a right to a chance either.....

you have the right to the persuit of.......persuit being the key word.....

Okay, so what's different about that and "the right to the chance?" Are you honestly going to sit there and argue semantics between the words "pursuit" and "chance?"

Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Life liberty and the chance at happiness.

What's the difference?

[manu1959]

:rolleyes:

then tell me mr rolls eyes.....why do people say they have a right to something when one actually has to earn it.....or can all you do is roll your because you can not refute the point.....

[manu1959]

Okay, so what's different about that and "the right to the chance?" Are you honestly going to sit there and argue semantics between the words "pursuit" and "chance?"

Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Life liberty and the chance at happiness.

What's the difference?

chance is a passive word pursuit is an active word if they meant to say chance they would have......

pursuit puts the responsibility on the individual to obtain the goal....it means one must work to get it ..... not stand there an hope you get the chance....

[Hagbard Celine]

There is a big difference. Let's look at the Obama quote again;




link (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/3/20542/43784/234/528616)

Obama would have you believe that only the wealthy have the privilege to a chance for a college education. That is where I disagree with him. People of this country do a have a chance at college education. That means that they may need to take out loans, apply for scholarships or grants, work and pay for school as they go but they can go to school.

Yeah and there's absolutely no difference between the struggle that the lower class has to go through to go to college and the go to college free card that the "wealthy few" get with their birth certificate. Right. Those rosey-colored shades you have on are working!

[Hagbard Celine]

chance is a passive word pursuit is an active word if they meant to say chance they would have......

pursuit puts the responsibility on the individual to obtain the goal....it means one must work to get it ..... not stand there an hope you get the chance....

It's completely ridiculous that you're arguing about this. :rolleyes:

You're reading things into the statement that aren't there simply for the benefit of your argument and nobody's buying it. There's no difference between what you and others have said here and what Obama said in his speech. We all have the right to have the "chance" to "pursue" an education.

[AFbombloader]

Yeah and there's absolutely no difference between the struggle that the lower class has to go through to go to college and the go to college free card that the "wealthy few" get with their birth certificate. Right. Those rosey-colored shades you have on are working!


When you have to work hard, or struggle for something, you tend to want it more and appreciate it more. Where does it say it has to be easy?

A lot of times it takes time to see you want to go to college. I didn't start until late, and my wife didn't finish until after our kids grew some. Now se had her masters in reading and I have an AS in aircraft mechanics and another in human relations. We paid for hers and mine were free (the military does have the best program for college).

AF:salute:

[MtnBiker]

Yeah and there's absolutely no difference between the struggle that the lower class has to go through to go to college and the go to college free card that the "wealthy few" get with their birth certificate. Right. Those rosey-colored shades you have on are working!

Life is full of struggle. Should the government make our lives free of struggle or at the least equal to those that are wealthy? Should the government make housing a birthright so that there is no difference to those that are wealthy and those that are not? Should the government make it a birthright to income that is no difference to those that are wealthy and those that are not? Should the government make it a birthright to stock our refrigerators no different to those that are wealthy and those that are not? Should the government make it a birthright to clothe ourselves so there is no difference to those that are wealthy and those that are not?

BTW, what is wrong with a struggle? Many people work hard and make it through college,it happens all the time, it can be done. If a weathly person goes to school without struggle, so what? I don't have to take something from a weathly person to ease my struggle just to accomplish something.

[manu1959]

It's completely ridiculous that you're arguing about this. :rolleyes:

You're reading things into the statement that aren't there simply for the benefit of your argument and nobody's buying it. There's no difference between what you and others have said here and what Obama said in his speech. We all have the right to have the "chance" to "pursue" an education.

obama is saying that the poor deserve a free education equivalent to those that have more money and more abilty.....

and since you changed topics you seem to have decided that chance and pursuit mean different things....

[Kathianne]

Yeah and there's absolutely no difference between the struggle that the lower class has to go through to go to college and the go to college free card that the "wealthy few" get with their birth certificate. Right. Those rosey-colored shades you have on are working!

College is an opportunity, for those that can complete. Today less than 25% of adults hold a BA/BS. Not because of lack of opportunity, rather for one reason or another they couldn't complete.

Some universities have only 10% of their freshmen complete their degree within 6 years or less.

Is it the kids or the school? In actuality it's a combination. Some party too much, never wanting to be in school in the first place. Then again, as the article addressed, some can't cut it. They lack the ability or training.

If the school is not willing to lower their standar, said student will fail. Regardless of cost.

[Mr. P]

I think everyone should have some understanding of the arts like literature, history, etc. Otherwise there'd be a huge part of the population with no understanding of who we are or where we came from.

I don't disagree with that...but what does it have to do with plumbing or a/c etc? Nuttin.

[Mr. P]

My buddy is rated in the top 10 of Porsche mechanics in the country. He works for a top Porsche dealer and he is struggling financially because work is slow. He is going back to college to get his degree so he can do something else.

If he steps out on his own he could retire by 40..I've seen it happen.

[crin63]

College is an opportunity, for those that can complete. Today less than 25% of adults hold a BA/BS. Not because of lack of opportunity, rather for one reason or another they couldn't complete.

Some universities have only 10% of their freshmen complete their degree within 6 years or less.

Is it the kids or the school? In actuality it's a combination. Some party too much, never wanting to be in school in the first place. Then again, as the article addressed, some can't cut it. They lack the ability or training.

If the school is not willing to lower their standar, said student will fail. Regardless of cost.

My sons experience was that alot of those who were considered less fortunate and got financial aid, took up class space long enough to get the money and then dropped the classes. They bought new computers, clothes and cars with the money. All the while filling up the class so other students couldn't take the class. Obviously it wasn't all of them but it was enough for him to notice.

[manu1959]

College is an opportunity, for those that can complete. Today less than 25% of adults hold a BA/BS. Not because of lack of opportunity, rather for one reason or another they couldn't complete.

Some universities have only 10% of their freshmen complete their degree within 6 years or less.

Is it the kids or the school? In actuality it's a combination. Some party too much, never wanting to be in school in the first place. Then again, as the article addressed, some can't cut it. They lack the ability or training.

If the school is not willing to lower their standar, said student will fail. Regardless of cost.

if you just paid for it and gave them better grades and were more tollerant of thier lack of ability and drive everyone would have a degree.....

it is like our youth sports programs now....if you show up you get a trophy.....no one gets grades any more.....and you can't play tag or dodge ball.....

and everyone wonders why the world is kicking or ass now economically.....

the spolid americans think they have a right to things others work for.....

[LiberalNation]

This spoiled American thinks a lot of the classes I'm gona hafta take to get a Bachlors of science in nursing are pointless. Art appreciation and diversity classes being top of the list. The military science classes will take a lot of time and don't count toward my degree either but at least I have a financial reason for taking them.

[manu1959]

This spoiled American thinks a lot of the classes I'm gona hafta take to get a Bachlors of science in nursing are pointless. Art appreciation and diversity classes being top of the list.

art classes are very important in my opinion same as music and other liberal arts classes.....diversity is common sense......

[Mr. P]

This spoiled American thinks a lot of the classes I'm gona hafta take to get a Bachlors of science in nursing are pointless. Art appreciation and diversity classes being top of the list. The military science classes will take a lot of time and don't count toward my degree either but at least I have a financial reason for taking them.

One of the few times I agree with you.

[crin63]

if you just paid for it and gave them better grades and were more tollerant of thier lack of ability and drive everyone would have a degree.....

it is like our youth sports programs now....if you show up you get a trophy.....no one gets grades any more.....and you can't play tag or dodge ball.....

and everyone wonders why the world is kicking or ass now economically.....

the spolid americans think they have a right to things others work for.....

Isn't that just nauseating. Maybe the bright light in all this is that our hard working kids will end up as the CEO's or entrepreneurs.

[Mr. P]

art classes are very important in my opinion same as music and other liberal arts classes.....diversity is common sense......

But has nothing to do with placing an IV..ask the wife.:poke:

[manu1959]

Isn't that just nauseating. Maybe the bright light in all this is that our hard working kids will end up as the CEO's or entrepreneurs.

i coached this 10 year old kid years ago in an elite soccer club and one day his dad and i were talking and he said.....these schools are just training people to work for my son......his son was a supper competitive no nonsense goal keeper.....

working on his mba now....dad made him pay for his own schooling....

[LiberalNation]

art classes are very important in my opinion same as music and other liberal arts classes.....diversity is common sense......

Maybe if it had any meaning to what you would be doing/studying, but in nursing, just a waste of time. I really don't appreciate art or music. Now science, anatomy and physiololgy is another story.

[manu1959]

But has nothing to do with placing an IV..ask the wife.:poke:

nope but my wife can save a life and discuss the modern moment ..... sexyist thing on a woman is her mind.....assuming the rest of the bits are easy on the eyes....

[manu1959]

Maybe if it had any meaning to what you would be doing/studying, but in nursing, just a waste of time. I really don't appreciate art or music.

pity....art and music and litature are three things that give life meaning.....the rest is work....

[Yurt]

There's no difference. You just want to disagree with Obama. Even if a right to a higher education was written in the Constitution, there'd be people who didn't take advantage of it. "Right" or "chance" or "opportunity," whatever synonym you'd like to use--the fact of the matter is that you'll split straws and disagree with Obama no matter what he says. (shrug)

It's such a joke man. He said the same thing you're saying and you're disagreeing with him based on semantics. Way to be divisive. Party lines all the way! Yeah! Americuh!


Yeah and there's absolutely no difference between the struggle that the lower class has to go through to go to college and the go to college free card that the "wealthy few" get with their birth certificate. Right. Those rosey-colored shades you have on are working!

hag, he said:


the chance to get a college education should not be a privilege for the wealthy few, but the birthright of every American. That's the change we need in America. That's why I'm running for President

what change? the moron is actually insinuating that there is a class of peole who cannot attend college no matter how hard they try and htat there is a class of people who will attend college simply for being born rich. this guy is a firm believer in class warfare and seeks to abolish this country's founding and turn it into a socialist state. so far, you seem to agree with him.

what difference does it make if one who has less money has to struggle harder to get into college? those with money get a brand new BMW at 16 (p. diddy's kid did).... all i got was a 10 year old ford escort. damn those richies, its not fair, i have the right to better transportation that is safer and a new car is safer than a 10 year old car. are you fighting for my right hag? or are you going to wimp out and call "semantics."

[Mr. P]

nope but my wife can save a life and discuss the modern moment ..... sexyist thing on a woman is her mind.....assuming the rest of the bits are easy on the eyes....

Ya know, I have no interest in a woman that can't do that.:cheers2:

[crin63]

sexyist thing on a woman is her mind.....assuming the rest of the bits are easy on the eyes....

ABSOLUTELY!!!!

[manu1959]

Ya know, I have no interest in a woman that can't do that.:cheers2:

you know i really don't care how hot you are but if you can't talk about more things than your job.....all we will have is hot sex.......tragic really....

[Mr. P]

you know i really don't care how hot you are but if you can't talk about more things than your job.....all we will have is hot sex.......tragic really....

I'm with ya..!

[diuretic]

[QUOTE=Kathianne;258407]It seems to me that we are making a huge mistake pretending that all can accomplish graduation from post secondary, moreso that all should want to:

<snipped article>

Many years ago, when credentialism was all the rage, we made the same mistake. We used to have a sort of mixed school (not quite along the lines of the British Comprehensive but similar) where students were sorted into academic subject streams and vocational education subject streams (with joint classes in standard subjects such as Eng Lit, Maths etc.)

Then some snob who thought the only people who were worth anything had uni degrees decided to get rid of these unified schools (we called them Technical High Schools). The upshot of this? A severe lack of tradespeople with high quality skills. We're seeing the effects now, we're fighting inflation caused by capacity constraints and plumbers and electricians and chippies are making a mint.

Different people have different talents. I am bloody hopeless with my hands, always have been. My brother is a brilliant mechanic, I have no idea how he does the things he does. I am really glad no-one forced him to go to uni, he would have been miserable, dropped out and got nowhere. Instead he took up his trade, studied and learned (he has various qualifications, can even work on Haulpak trucks, he's worked overseas and travelled before settling down. The point is he fulfillled his potential, not the idealised potential someone else thought he should have fulfilled.

[Kathianne]

Kathianne are you referring to vocational schools as compared to universities?

Sorry. How many start college or probably trade schools for that matter are not close to the number that complete.

They may go to play. They may just lack the ability or skills to complete.

[Kathianne]

I think everyone should have some understanding of the arts like literature, history, etc. Otherwise there'd be a huge part of the population with no understanding of who we are or where we came from.

There is a huge section of the population that cannot, meaning they lack the cognitive skills to benefit from the arts in the way you are referring to. They may not have the innate ability, they may lack the educational foundation, they may just not have the interest-You can lead a horse to water...

[diuretic]

There is a huge section of the population that cannot, meaning they lack the cognitive skills to benefit from the arts in the way you are referring to. They may not have the innate ability, they may lack the educational foundation, they may just not have the interest-You can lead a horse to water...

But can't they be taken as far as they can go? And perhaps they can be taken further? That seems a very determinist view.

[Kathianne]

art classes are very important in my opinion same as music and other liberal arts classes.....diversity is common sense......

I agree with you about art, music, literature. Yet even in lower grades, there are students that not only don't appreciate, they don't get what there IS to appreciate. They are the same ones that really don't progress from learning set concepts, to making inferences. Everything they learn is at the basic level of taking in information, but not being able to move up the cognitive hierarchy. They in all likelihood do not have the ability to get through those first two years of college.

Some have the ability yet choose to work at the lowest place possible to get the grade they want, with as little effort as possible. Those are often the freshmen that will party til they fail. Then again, they may decide to skip college at 18, return at 25-40 and do great.

I believe Professor X is referring to the first group, those lacking the ability to get through that required year of English. The universities I went required two years of English/Literature. Honors/AP/CLEP was possible to cover the first, but one still was forced to wade through American and British Lit. ;)

[Kathianne]

But can't they be taken as far as they can go? And perhaps they can be taken further? That seems a very determinist view.

Each level of education really does have a certain threshold. In the US, as evidenced by NCLB, some refuse to acknowledge that there are a few, very few, that will never be able to read. NOT because of a learning disability or something like that, but because they are brain damaged. NCLB holds the school responsible for teaching that child to read-ON GRADE LEVEL, it's never going to happen.

Now many more can manage the curriculum through high school, though perhaps at lower than grade level. If too low, accommodations can often be made with those noted on records. That allows for the hs diploma and the opportunities to pursue other training. It doesn't necessarily lead to college, though few middle class families recognize that.

Many of us here have lots of education, I think we sometimes believe that because we didn't have to work that hard, relatively, to get through school, (I'm not talking $$$, I'm talking effort to graduate by successful completion of courses), anyone could do it. Well it's not necessarily true. I KNOW I could not complete the engineering program, or math, or medicine. I suppose to a degree, the very fact that one knows ones strengths and weaknesses is a form of intelligence?

As you said earlier, some have an astonishing ability in mechanics or art or music. For some, they will pursue on the university level. Then again, they may go for a trade school, apprenticeship, or with art/music, even self-develop.

So yes, I do believe that through high school, we should attempt to give our students the broad spectrum of academics and the arts, but not pretending that all can work at the university level or not provide the basics for those that recognize they wish to go into one of the trades.

[LiberalNation]

Now english and history I enjoy. Two of my best classes in high school actually, just not arts and humanities. Too bad that make us take a western euorpean history class for our degree, American history is a lot more interesting.

[Kathianne]

Now english and history I enjoy. Two of my best classes in high school actually, just not arts and humanities. Too bad that make us take a western euorpean history class for our degree, American history is a lot more interesting.

There would be no US History if not for Western Civ. I hope it's the ancients. ;)

[LiberalNation]

I'm thinking more recent then that. They never do the ancients, it'll be the french revolution, napoleon, and the British stuff.

[diuretic]

Each level of education really does have a certain threshold. In the US, as evidenced by NCLB, some refuse to acknowledge that there are a few, very few, that will never be able to read. NOT because of a learning disability or something like that, but because they are brain damaged. NCLB holds the school responsible for teaching that child to read-ON GRADE LEVEL, it's never going to happen.

Now many more can manage the curriculum through high school, though perhaps at lower than grade level. If too low, accommodations can often be made with those noted on records. That allows for the hs diploma and the opportunities to pursue other training. It doesn't necessarily lead to college, though few middle class families recognize that.

Many of us here have lots of education, I think we sometimes believe that because we didn't have to work that hard, relatively, to get through school, (I'm not talking $$$, I'm talking effort to graduate by successful completion of courses), anyone could do it. Well it's not necessarily true. I KNOW I could not complete the engineering program, or math, or medicine. I suppose to a degree, the very fact that one knows ones strengths and weaknesses is a form of intelligence?

As you said earlier, some have an astonishing ability in mechanics or art or music. For some, they will pursue on the university level. Then again, they may go for a trade school, apprenticeship, or with art/music, even self-develop.

So yes, I do believe that through high school, we should attempt to give our students the broad spectrum of academics and the arts, but not pretending that all can work at the university level or not provide the basics for those that recognize they wish to go into one of the trades.

I suppose the question is how - and more importantly when - do we begin to stream people? And here I know I may incur hisses from the sideline. But hisses I can put up with.

http://tinyurl.com/3ecs7k


Parental choice has replaced centralized LEA allocation of pupils, systems for engineering a balanced social mix in schools have been largely abandoned, and the introduction of 'league tables' to measure the comparative effectiveness of individual schools has led to a polarization of secondary school intakes--the very opposite of what the original comprehensive system was intended to achieve.

I suspect this is what has happened. "My kid isn't going to be a plumber, my kid is going to university and become a lawyer."

[diuretic]

I'm thinking more recent then that. They never do the ancients, it'll be the french revolution, napoleon, and the British stuff.

That's a shame. If they don't go back to the beginnings and explore the paradox between democratia and the slave economy then it's all going to be out of whack.

[darin]

Yeah, but you said it yourself, companies won't even give you an interview if you don't have that "piece of paper."

Which is the problem. Not who goes or why or why not. It a fundamental shift from having 'most-capable' to 'most-educated' when the two are not often the same.

[diuretic]

Which is the problem. Not who goes or why or why not. It a fundamental shift from having 'most-capable' to 'most-educated' when the two are not often the same.

Which tells you why most recruiting companies are piss-poor at their job. It's an industry standard.

[crin63]

College was never really an option for me growing up. My oldest son was the first one in my family to actually graduate HS for 2-3 generations. I never ever heard the word college from my family.

I got my GED and got in a Union when I was 17. I was already working when my classmates were graduating. I was a journeyman in my craft by the time I was 20. I was running work by the time I was 25 and worked as foreman and general foreman throughout most of my career. I had all the potential to get a degree but as it turns out I was raised by hicks, lol. All my family have owned their own businesses and made decent livings.

I want my children to get college degrees and then do what they want. If they really want to be auto mechanics or construction workers thats fine but I want them to have the ability to climb as high as they are able and willing to go. Both sons are paying for their own educations themselves and both have been working since they were juniors in HS.

I really have to stress the need for a college degree. After 23 years of working in my craft I was injured 3 times and in 2 auto accidents. Now that I am unable to work in my craft any more and still have 2 kids at home I really wish someone would've shown me the value of an education when I was younger. I wish I had a degree to fall back on.

Trade school is fine but what about when you cant do that any more.

[Kathianne]

College was never really an option for me growing up. My oldest son was the first one in my family to actually graduate HS for 2-3 generations. I never ever heard the word college from my family.

I got my GED and got in a Union when I was 17. I was already working when my classmates were graduating. I was a journeyman in my craft by the time I was 20. I was running work by the time I was 25 and worked as foreman and general foreman throughout most of my career. I had all the potential to get a degree but as it turns out I was raised by hicks, lol. All my family have owned their own businesses and made decent livings.

I want my children to get college degrees and then do what they want. If they really want to be auto mechanics or construction workers thats fine but I want them to have the ability to climb as high as they are able and willing to go. Both sons are paying for their own educations themselves and both have been working since they were juniors in HS.

I really have to stress the need for a college degree. After 23 years of working in my craft I was injured 3 times and in 2 auto accidents. Now that I am unable to work in my craft any more and still have 2 kids at home I really wish someone would've shown me the value of an education when I was younger. I wish I had a degree to fall back on.

Trade school is fine but what about when you cant do that any more.

Sorry to hear about the accidents, that's rough. It's never too late to return to college, for all the cracks about community colleges, they do a great, flexible, and less expensive way to complete the gen ed curriculum, (2 years). I happen to live close to one of the best community colleges in the nation, it's been referred to in a professional higher education magazine as the Harvard of community colleges. There are lots of 'non-traditional' students there during the days and evenings. Many younger students want to be able to work and save for the two years at a university. Many come there just to get the basics down well, if they didn't do so in high school.

They also have many career oriented associate's degree programs. I was hoping to be able to just copy the academic departments, but can't. Here's the link:

http://www.cod.edu/Academic/Index.htm

I'm sure there is a school around where you live. Good luck!

[KitchenKitten99]

This spoiled American thinks a lot of the classes I'm gona hafta take to get a Bachlors of science in nursing are pointless. Art appreciation and diversity classes being top of the list. The military science classes will take a lot of time and don't count toward my degree either but at least I have a financial reason for taking them.

This is why I am glad I didn't decide on what I wanted to do 'back then' (nearly 10 years ago) because my interests have completely changed and I now have decided on what I really want to do. I plan on going to culinary school at Le Cordon Bleu here in Minneapolis by Fall 2009.

For both Applied Science degree programs (patisserie/baking and culinary arts) total tuition plus books and supplies runs $42,000 for a 30-month program (if you go full time), each degree program lasting 12 months plus 3 months of apprenticeship in a local restaurant. I am hoping that by taking both courses at the same time, I can cut down time in school by half, if they allow me to do both degree programs concurrently. By next fall, I am guessing tuition will be around $45K or more. For that kind of money, I am glad they don't make me take any bullshit classes that are in no way related to my degree. I am applying for scholarships to try and help ease the financial impact.