Would you accept your child being gay or lesbian?

[gabosaurus]

This actually came up when my husband and I were at a dinner gathering tonight.
There was a couple there who are deeply religious and have firm moral convictions. They would make some of you look liberal in that department.
Their daughter is 23 and a recent college graduate. While in college, daughter had very little contact with her parents. Following the graduation festivities, mom took daughter out for a drink and asked why she had gradually drawn away.
Daughter admitted that she was a lesbian and was living with another woman.
Mom said it took some time and counseling, but she came to accept her daughter as she is. Mom doesn't approve, but accepts her daughter as she is.
Neither has told dad, who would totally be against it, no maker what.

So how would you go? This is purely hypothetical, so save the "it would never happen in my family! Never ever!" posturing.
What if it did? Put yourself in the above woman's place.

I would accept it, of course. My daughter is free to make her own lifestyle decisions.

[crin63]

So how would you go?

Its pretty simple. I didn't say easy, I said simple.

My children already know my position and what the consequences are. I wont tolerate any sexual sin from them. By committing sexual sin they have made the choice to leave my home. They would always be welcomed back into my life if they repent of it and turn completely away from it.

I would have to seek counsel as to how I would handle it if they married the person they were fornicating with.

Since no matter how many laws are passed homosexual marriage will never be legitimate, the only option would be for them to repent, walk away and never return to that lifestyle to once again be a part of my life.

I truly hope that it comes to any of this.

[gabosaurus]

Thanks for your response. I totally understand your position.

[Sitarro]

This actually came up when my husband and I were at a dinner gathering tonight.
There was a couple there who are deeply religious and have firm moral convictions. They would make some of you look liberal in that department.
Their daughter is 23 and a recent college graduate. While in college, daughter had very little contact with her parents. Following the graduation festivities, mom took daughter out for a drink and asked why she had gradually drawn away.
Daughter admitted that she was a lesbian and was living with another woman.
Mom said it took some time and counseling, but she came to accept her daughter as she is. Mom doesn't approve, but accepts her daughter as she is.
Neither has told dad, who would totally be against it, no maker what.

So how would you go? This is purely hypothetical, so save the "it would never happen in my family! Never ever!" posturing.
What if it did? Put yourself in the above woman's place.

I would accept it, of course. My daughter is free to make her own lifestyle decisions.

What a surprise, a college student playing lesbian for grins, happens a lot now that it is considered cool. I notice that you refer to it correctly, a lifestyle decision..... that surprised me that you would admit that.

[bullypulpit]

Since we don't have kids, it's not an issue. My mom, however, called the other day, and said "Your cousin landed a millionaire...", and in almost sotto voce added, "...And he's gay."

My first response was, "Ma, Tina and I figured that out a long time ago." She sounded a little disappointed, as if we'd stolen her thunder. The truth is we were just waiting for him to come out, and over Christmas, when we visited home, he seemed much more relaxed and a whole lot less nervous and neurotic than we'd ever seen him. So we figured something was up.

So what did we do? We sent a card to my cousin and his partner welcoming him to the family.

[Said1]

I'll be honest, I'd be disappointed, but I'd get over it - I couldn't imgaine turing my back on her over something of that nature. The bottom line is, I just want her to be happy and not make the same stupid mistakes I made with respect to her father. If she can manage that, the rest is gravey!

[Noir]

Ofcousre i'd accept them, gay, bi or hetro they are who they are and thats that.


I wont tolerate any sexual sin from them

Does this include sex before marriage? as it is a sexual sin...?

[Dilloduck]

I'll be honest, I'd be disappointed, but I'd get over it - I couldn't imgaine turing my back on her over something of that nature. The bottom line is, I just want her to be happy and not make the same stupid mistakes I made with respect to her father. If she can manage that, the rest is gravey!

You made stupid mistakes ??? Say it ain't so. My fantasies are shot !!!:laugh2:

[Dilloduck]

This actually came up when my husband and I were at a dinner gathering tonight.
There was a couple there who are deeply religious and have firm moral convictions. They would make some of you look liberal in that department.
Their daughter is 23 and a recent college graduate. While in college, daughter had very little contact with her parents. Following the graduation festivities, mom took daughter out for a drink and asked why she had gradually drawn away.
Daughter admitted that she was a lesbian and was living with another woman.
Mom said it took some time and counseling, but she came to accept her daughter as she is. Mom doesn't approve, but accepts her daughter as she is.
Neither has told dad, who would totally be against it, no maker what.

So how would you go? This is purely hypothetical, so save the "it would never happen in my family! Never ever!" posturing.
What if it did? Put yourself in the above woman's place.

I would accept it, of course. My daughter is free to make her own lifestyle decisions.

Ever notice how your posts are getting real similar to Marty's ?:laugh2:

Would you kiss a donkey on the first date ? :poke:

[emmett]

I would be very disappointed. Then I would go out and find the most bodacious looking chick in the world and do what ever I could to convince her to hang around alot. I feel confident that a "normal" re4action would soon take place.

[Said1]

You made stupid mistakes ??? Say it ain't so. My fantasies are shot !!!:laugh2:

I think I spelled gravey wrong too. :o

[midcan5]

There is no such thing as acceptance here, or should I say that would be like accepting your daughter has green eyes. Gay is inherent, my brother is gay, I know of a niece (not a blood relation) that just told her parents as well. People who think this is some sexual sin or choice are naive at best. This site needs a 'Grown up Thread title' for issues that aren't religious but somehow get stuck in this category. If you believe God created us all then get on with life too many important things to think about. Judge not....

[MtnBiker]

Would you accept your child being a conservative?

[Said1]

There is no such thing as acceptance here, or should I say that would be like accepting your daughter has green eyes. Gay is inherent, my brother is gay, I know of a niece (not a blood relation) that just told her parents as well. People who think this is some sexual sin or choice are naive at best. This site needs a 'Grown up Thread title' for issues that aren't religious but somehow get stuck in this category. If you believe God created us all then get on with life too many important things to think about. Judge not....

Yes. I agree. YOU should judge not........

[glockmail]

....lifestyle decisions. Oops- you let the cat out of the bag here. I thought queers were born that way?

[glockmail]

I would be very disappointed. Then I would go out and find the most bodacious looking chick in the world and do what ever I could to convince her to hang around alot. I feel confident that a "normal" re4action would soon take place.

Can you adopt me for a week? :coffee:

[retiredman]

I would completely accept any of my children being gay... or conservative.

[Dilloduck]

I think I spelled gravey wrong too. :o

:lalala:

[gabosaurus]

There is no "decision" to be made about sexuality. The decision is whether you tell anyone. That is what the thread is about.
Glock, one of your kids might be gay/lesbian. Unless they decide to come out, you will never know it. THAT is the lifestyle decision.
This is what I don't understand about the thinking of conservative extremists. They will accept all elements of others -- male or female, blonde or brunette, right or left handed, birth defects and diseases, etc. But they believe everyone is born heterosexual.
It is like expecting all children to be born perfect. If you child turns out to be mentally challenged, or develops a physical defect or illness, do you expect him to change?
"You need to stop being stupid! Study and pay attention more!"

When my husband first started going to church, he asked our pastor if he accepted homosexuality. The pastor said he did. When my husband asked why, our pastor replied "Because God doesn't make mistakes."

[Noir]

our pastor replied "Because God doesn't make mistakes."

Except for the great flood

[crin63]

Does this include sex before marriage? as it is a sexual sin...?

Yes it does, I apologize if that wasn't made clear enough in my post.

[Noir]

okies so what if your son had sex out of marraige with his girlfriend? As unlike homosexuality it is not something you can 'take back'

[crin63]

There is no such thing as acceptance here, or should I say that would be like accepting your daughter has green eyes. Gay is inherent, my brother is gay, I know of a niece (not a blood relation) that just told her parents as well. People who think this is some sexual sin or choice are naive at best. This site needs a 'Grown up Thread title' for issues that aren't religious but somehow get stuck in this category. If you believe God created us all then get on with life too many important things to think about. Judge not....

Why is anyone here supposed to be accepting of homosexuality? Because you say so? Thats not gonna happen. You don't get to determine what information is used in the debate. I realize that you want to silence Christians but it isn't gonna happen here at least not with me.

I'm not judging, I'm simply pointing out the truth of Gods word. Your opinion does not change that truth no matter how much you want it too. If you don't want to hear then put me on ignore. I'm American and I won't be silenced by Liberals.

[Noir]

"I realize that you want to silence Christians but it isn't gonna happen here at least not with me."

This brings about another point, we are all sinners, full stop. But God forgives all if you trust in him, therefore if a Homosexual person has a relationship with God why should any other christains hhave a problem with it?

[crin63]

"I realize that you want to silence Christians but it isn't gonna happen here at least not with me."

This brings about another point, we are all sinners, full stop. But God forgives all if you trust in him, therefore if a Homosexual person has a relationship with God why should any other christains hhave a problem with it?

The Bible is quite clear that homosexuals are not and cannot be Christians while remaining a homosexual. They can repent, turn away from homosexuality and come to Jesus Christ by faith to the saving of their souls. They wont return to the sin of homosexuality if they are a genuine Christian.

Scripture references: Romans 1:24 - 1:28, 1 Corinthians 6:9- 6:11

[crin63]

I'll post the actual scriptures for you if you like.

[Noir]

but if you look at 1 Corinthians 6:9- 6:11 as the example you gave


Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

So homosexuals can't, male prozzies can't (Note females not mentioned!) aduterers can't...and then the others...drunks can't...those who are greedy can't...slanderers can't...dude, we're all going to hell.


I'll post the actual scriptures for you if you like.

Its ok i use http://www.biblegateway.com/ for all biblical quotes

[glockmail]

....So how would you go? ...... I like Emmet's idea of having a hot chick around (for a male child) and after that the three of us would meet with our Priest and talk frankly about how wrong it is and rotting in hell and all that. (All queers go to hell- no exceptions.) If that didn't work I'd treat him like the rest of my friends or relatives that are fucked up in the head: love the sinner, hate the sin.

[5stringJeff]

I pretty much agree with crin on this one. And I have two cousins that have chosen the gay lifestyle, so I've seen how their parents (my uncles/aunts) dealt with it. They still love them as their children, and they are open in both their love and their unacceptance of their choices.

[crin63]

but if you look at 1 Corinthians 6:9- 6:11 as the example you gave



So homosexuals can't, male prozzies can't (Note females not mentioned!) aduterers can't...and then the others...drunks can't...those who are greedy can't...slanderers can't...dude, we're all going to hell.



Its ok i use http://www.biblegateway.com/ for all biblical quotes

Fornicators and abusers of themselves with mankind cover it pretty well I think.

[Noir]

Fornicators and abusers of themselves with mankind cover it pretty well I think.

Say what now?
The point i was tryin to make was that you said you could not be homosexual and christain, as was quoted from the bible, but the same verse also says you can not be greedy, so going by the same logic you can not be greedy and christain?

but ofcourse greed is much harder to quantify, i'm pretty certain i'm not homosexual, but how do i know if i'm to greedy to be christain?

[Kathianne]

I'd love my child. I wouldn't be happy about it, but I'm not thrilled with some of their choices on boyfriends/girlfriends.

I would not allow that behavior in my house or stay in theirs, though seperate rooms at my home would be fine. At the same time, I would not allow my children to have a boyfriend/girlfriend stay in my house, in the same room. Married is different, heterosexuals only. I wouldn't stay in the home of my kids and a boyfriend/girlfriend, but I'd visit and celebrate anything normal. They all would be welcome into my home, for a visit, meal or shelter, just not sleeping together. ;)

[crin63]

Say what now?
The point i was tryin to make was that you said you could not be homosexual and christain, as was quoted from the bible, but the same verse also says you can not be greedy, so going by the same logic you can not be greedy and christain?

but ofcourse greed is much harder to quantify, i'm pretty certain i'm not homosexual, but how do i know if i'm to greedy to be christain?

I'd have to say you answered your own question. The Bible says what The Bible says. I'm not going to start quantifying sin for you. If the Bible says that someone who is a homosexual or greedy cant be a Christian then thats what it says.
Is there such a thing as just a little bit homosexual? No, you either are or you're not. How many times do you have to steal to be a thief?

You also completely failed to acknowledge that in Romans it was very clear regarding the actual topic which is homosexuality.

It was a nice attempt at muddying the waters though.

[dread]

I'd love my child. I wouldn't be happy about it, but I'm not thrilled with some of their choices on boyfriends/girlfriends.

I would not allow that behavior in my house or stay in theirs, though seperate rooms at my home would be fine. At the same time, I would not allow my children to have a boyfriend/girlfriend stay in my house, in the same room. Married is different, heterosexuals only. I wouldn't stay in the home of my kids and a boyfriend/girlfriend, but I'd visit and celebrate anything normal. They all would be welcome into my home, for a visit, meal or shelter, just not sleeping together. ;)


You ever watch Fiddler on the Roof? I think I would be like like Tevye and how he reacted to his third daughter getting married behind his back, in the Catholic church, and junking her faith. I sorta understood how he felt. He couldnt bend anymore.


I have discussed at length with my children that if they would ever become lesbos I would disown them.

[Noir]

I'd have to say you answered your own question. The Bible says what The Bible says. I'm not going to start quantifying sin for you. If the Bible says that someone who is a homosexual or greedy cant be a Christian then thats what it says.

Well then allot of us...and i mean ALLOT are going to hell, cus i'm sure there are very few (if any) living in the western world who do not fall foul pf greed every day.


Is there such a thing as just a little bit homosexual? No, you either are or you're not. How many times do you have to steal to be a thief?

I didn't say there was such a thing, what i was tryin to say is you know if you are a homosexual or a thief, how do you know if your greedy? its nowhere near as clear cut. Also if i may bring in Bisexuals, do they come under homosexual by the bible? And what about A-sexuals? how do they fit in?


You also completely failed to acknowledge that in Romans it was very clear regarding the actual topic which is homosexuality.
In romans it states that God does not accept homosexuality, i acknowledge that.


It was a nice attempt at muddying the waters though.
I ain't done yet, and you can hardly claim that chirstainity is as clear as an unmudded lake can you?

[Kathianne]

You ever watch Fiddler on the Roof? I think I would be like like Tevye and how he reacted to his third daughter getting married behind his back, in the Catholic church, and junking her faith. I sorta understood how he felt. He couldnt bend anymore.


I have discussed at length with my children that if they would ever become lesbos I would disown them.

That's not something I could do. I understand you feel different.

[LiberalNation]

I would be fine with it. People are gona be who they're gona be. If a parent wants to ruin there relationship with their child it's their problem. Kids grow up and they aren't gona choose a parent over a signeficent other most the time.

My mom knows I might be gay. We've discussed it. I'll end up with whoever I end up with. That's no one right now, poor me, I'm not outgoing enough.

[Said1]

I would be fine with it. People are gona be who they're gona be. If a parent wants to ruin there relationship with their child it's their problem. Kids grow up and they aren't gona choose a parent over a signeficent other most the time.

My mom knows I might be gay. We've discussed it. I'll end up with whoever I end up with. That's no one right now, poor me, I'm not outgoing enough.

Don't be blue. There's always www.plentyoffish.com in the sea. :laugh2:

[LiberalNation]

lol

[Abbey Marie]

Just wanted to say, kudos to everyone in the thread for discussing a usually volatile subject without insults. It actually is possible. :clap:

[Mr. P]

I'd love my child. I wouldn't be happy about it, but I'm not thrilled with some of their choices on boyfriends/girlfriends.

I would not allow that behavior in my house or stay in theirs, though seperate rooms at my home would be fine. At the same time, I would not allow my children to have a boyfriend/girlfriend stay in my house, in the same room. Married is different, heterosexuals only. I wouldn't stay in the home of my kids and a boyfriend/girlfriend, but I'd visit and celebrate anything normal. They all would be welcome into my home, for a visit, meal or shelter, just not sleeping together. ;)

Same here, Ms. K. The premise of the thread is "disowning" your children for acts or behavior you may not agree with..IMO.

I may not agree or approve of everything my child would or might do in her personal life, but my child she will still be.

[Kathianne]

Same here, Ms. K. The premise of the thread is "disowning" your children for acts or behavior you may not agree with..IMO.

I may not agree or approve of everything my child would or might do in her personal life, but my child she will still be.

Yep, to me that is the bottom line. They know my parameters, they have since high school. They know I'd prefer they not be promiscuous, as far as I know they've not been. I don't want to know more. I don't want to know any details. :laugh2: I do know I made sure they know what to do to stay healthy and I did my best to teach them how to treat others and themselves. ;)

[crin63]

Well then allot of us...and i mean ALLOT are going to hell, cus i'm sure there are very few (if any) living in the western world who do not fall foul pf greed every day.



I didn't say there was such a thing, what i was tryin to say is you know if you are a homosexual or a thief, how do you know if your greedy? its nowhere near as clear cut. Also if i may bring in Bisexuals, do they come under homosexual by the bible? And what about A-sexuals? how do they fit in?


In romans it states that God does not accept homosexuality, i acknowledge that.


I ain't done yet, and you can hardly claim that chirstainity is as clear as an unmudded lake can you?

Bi-sexuals and all other sexual perversions fall under fornication. ANY sex (hetero, homo, bi, adultery and etc) outside the bounds of a marriage between a man and a woman is a form of fornication. Some have been specifically defined others are not but they are still fornication.

I understand your concern about how the scriptures read but yes I think The Bible is very clear and unfortunately I think very many people will go to hell.

I think you can see Christianity very clearly. Wherein the problem lies is that people want to make God and the word of God fit into their mold of what they think He and it should say or be. They want to apply mans standards to God instead of Gods standards to men. Instead of simply reading The Bible and finding out what God says, expects and wants out of us.

If you want to PM me we can discuss it at length.

[crin63]

Well then allot of us...and i mean ALLOT are going to hell, cus i'm sure there are very few (if any) living in the western world who do not fall foul pf greed every day.



I didn't say there was such a thing, what i was tryin to say is you know if you are a homosexual or a thief, how do you know if your greedy? its nowhere near as clear cut. Also if i may bring in Bisexuals, do they come under homosexual by the bible? And what about A-sexuals? how do they fit in?


By the way, my apologies if I misunderstood what you were trying to ask or say.

[midcan5]

Why is anyone here supposed to be accepting of homosexuality? Because you say so? Thats not gonna happen. You don't get to determine what information is used in the debate. I realize that you want to silence Christians but it isn't gonna happen here at least not with me.

I'm not judging, I'm simply pointing out the truth of Gods word. Your opinion does not change that truth no matter how much you want it too. If you don't want to hear then put me on ignore. I'm American and I won't be silenced by Liberals.

You can remain in Bigotville as long as you like, doesn't make your religious interpretation correct.


"The Old and New Testaments both regarded slavery as normal and nowhere categorically condemned it. Part of that heritage was the use of female slaves, concubines and captives as sexual toys, breeding machines, or involuntary wives by their male owners, which 2 Sam. 5:13, Judges 19-21 and Num. 31:18 permitted--and as many American slave owners did some 150 years ago, citing these and numerous other Scripture passages as their justification."

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-walter-wink

[My Winter Storm]

If my kid told me they were gay, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
It sickens me that people would simply disown their own flesh and blood if happened they were gay.
The people who would do this do NOT deserve to be parents. Parents should love their children unconditionally, sexuality is non issue.

[Noir]

You can remain in Bigotville as long as you like, doesn't make your religious interpretation correct.


"The Old and New Testaments both regarded slavery as normal and nowhere categorically condemned it. Part of that heritage was the use of female slaves, concubines and captives as sexual toys, breeding machines, or involuntary wives by their male owners, which 2 Sam. 5:13, Judges 19-21 and Num. 31:18 permitted--and as many American slave owners did some 150 years ago, citing these and numerous other Scripture passages as their justification."

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-walter-wink

But he is talking about Christianity, which is the followings of Jesus, which is the new testament not the old, and the new testament does look too kindly on homosexuals.

[gabosaurus]

There are a number of DP members who embrace their Confederate heritage. I am sure they would own slaves if they were allowed to.

[Kathianne]

There are a number of DP members who embrace their Confederate heritage. I am sure they would own slaves if they were allowed to.

My family never owned slaves. Here's one that did:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/mar/04/uselections2008.barackobama

[crin63]

There are a number of DP members who embrace their Confederate heritage. I am sure they would own slaves if they were allowed to.

The C.S.A. was right in their fight for states rights.

I personally think that slavery was wrong on one hand but on the other hand (not that it was right) how many of the slaves posterity have it so much better here in the U.S. today than they would've had in Africa today or the last 200 years.

As a parent or grandparent would you be willing to sacrifice much and maybe all so that your children and grandchildren could enjoy the freedoms and prosperity available in this country (our Founding Fathers did)? Even had it been forced upon you. I realize that the slaves could not see the future but had they been able too, I don't know it might have been worth it to them.

I don't know, its just a thought.

[Hagbard Celine]

It would depend on what kind of gay or lesbian they were. My first roommate in college was a gay dude and he was totally boring and lame. He was messy and dorky and smelly and had less fashion sense than me--and that ain't saying much. (Aren't the gays supposed to be really clean, neat and fashionable?) I was disappointed in the roommate fate dealt me to say the least.
People need to be interesting and lighthearted, no matter who they are. I think if you've got those two things going for you, it doesn't matter what your beliefs are (within reason of course.) I just couldn't see myself befriending a gay, self-hating Islamic extremist. :cheers2:
Somehow, I doubt that any of my offspring could ever be gay or uninteresting though. I'm way too much of a horndog for any son of mine to ever go for the sausage team. I'll instill a deepseated appreciation for le bikini early-on. I wouldn't mind a lesbo daughter though. The thought of some assh*le dipping his wick in my daughter makes me kinda see red. I honestly don't know how my gf's dad restrains himself from knocking me out, much less how I could handle that kind of thing myself.

[Trigg]

My family never owned slaves. Here's one that did:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/mar/04/uselections2008.barackobama

Good to know!!

Now if Obama decides to give reparations to blacks they can send HIM the bill.




My family never owned slaves. We moved to Kansas from the North.

[gabosaurus]

I don't know how Sharon would rather her children. But I am fairly certain what kind of music they would grow up listening to.

[My Winter Storm]

^ Only the best for my kids! :)

[Roomy]

I have 4 kids, 2 sons and 2 daughters, all heterosexual as far as their relationships thusfar have proved.If in the future any of them came out as gay to me, I would be surprised, disappointed? I guess so, but sure I would get over it and accept it almost immediately.I love my kids unconditionally.I cannot comprehend the mindset of anyone disowning their children over something so ultimately trivial.I would never try to impose my will on my kids as far as their sexuality is concerned and emotional blackmail is pathetic.

[5stringJeff]

There are a number of DP members who embrace their Confederate heritage. I am sure they would own slaves if they were allowed to.

To take your ludicrous assumptions a step further: you embrace your German heritage, so I'm sure you'd kill a few Jews if you were allowed to.

[Yurt]

The C.S.A. was right in their fight for states rights.

I personally think that slavery was wrong on one hand but on the other hand (not that it was right) how many of the slaves posterity have it so much better here in the U.S. today than they would've had in Africa today or the last 200 years.

As a parent or grandparent would you be willing to sacrifice much and maybe all so that your children and grandchildren could enjoy the freedoms and prosperity available in this country (our Founding Fathers did)? Even had it been forced upon you. I realize that the slaves could not see the future but had they been able too, I don't know it might have been worth it to them.

I don't know, its just a thought.

without the industrial revolution, slaves of all color would still exist, but the libs would have you believe it was a white conspiracy, as if only whites owned slaves, as if only whites sold their white african brothers into slavery....


edit: oh wait, slaves still exist

[crin63]

If my kid told me they were gay, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
It sickens me that people would simply disown their own flesh and blood if happened they were gay.
The people who would do this do NOT deserve to be parents. Parents should love their children unconditionally, sexuality is non issue.

No one said anything about not loving their children. Thats the implication you are making by saying that you would love your children unconditionally.

Love does not equal acceptance of any and all behavior as you are also implying. Beyond our disagreement about homosexual behavior wrong is wrong. You sound like the gang-bangers mom out there saying, "but he is such a good boy" right after he just drove by and shot some little kid.

Nothing is going to change how much I love my children. However I am not going to accept them living a homosexual lifestyle. They know it and they know that if they make that decision then they are deciding to not be a part of my life so long as they continue in that path. I would have the same reaction if they became gangsters.

[My Winter Storm]

Nothing is going to change how much I love my children. However I am not going to accept them living a homosexual lifestyle. They know it and they know that if they make that decision then they are deciding to not be a part of my life so long as they continue in that path. I would have the same reaction if they became gangsters.

How would your children feel if they were gay but were too scared to tell you because they knew you'd shut the door in their faces? Would you expect them to be someone they are not?
I'd like my kids to be happy, and if they are happy with someone of the same sex, so be it.
Someone who would disown their kids because of something so minor does not love their children unconditionally. If you did, you would accept the fact that they are happy with who they are.

[crin63]

How would your children feel if they were gay but were too scared to tell you because they knew you'd shut the door in their faces? Would you expect them to be someone they are not?
I'd like my kids to be happy, and if they are happy with someone of the same sex, so be it.
Someone who would disown their kids because of something so minor does not love their children unconditionally. If you did, you would accept the fact that they are happy with who they are.

You look still and will continue to look at it as though they have no choice. I will always see it as a choice. To you its a minor thing because it has to be, otherwise you are wrong. For you happiness has to be the determining factor otherwise you are also wrong.

You cant use pleasure and happiness as the determining factor. You have to use right and wrong.

Running scams, cons and ripping people off blind make some people happy so I should accept that as well? So long as it makes my kids happy. I should accept that they are into grand theft because the rush makes them happy? I should accept them driving by and shooting people because they get some perverse pleasure out of it and that makes them happy? No, I wont accept it.

[Roomy]

You look still and will continue to look at it as though they have no choice. I will always see it as a choice. To you its a minor thing because it has to be, otherwise you are wrong. For you happiness has to be the determining factor otherwise you are also wrong.

You cant use pleasure and happiness as the determining factor. You have to use right and wrong.

Running scams, cons and ripping people off blind make some people happy so I should accept that as well? So long as it makes my kids happy. I should accept that they are into grand theft because the rush makes them happy? I should accept them driving by and shooting people because they get some perverse pleasure out of it and that makes them happy? No, I wont accept it.

Now you are making ridiculous comparisons to justify your stance.Why not just tell it like it is for you?

[crin63]

Now you are making ridiculous comparisons to justify your stance.Why not just tell it like it is for you?

I've already told it like it is. Several times.

[Roomy]

I've already told it like it is. Several times.


No, you quoted the bible at us.
Question: Are you a fundamentalist?
You also say you can sin, then repent and you are forgiven, that must be nice for you?
Question: Are you a homophobe?

[crin63]

No, you quoted the bible at us.
Question: Are you a fundamentalist?
You also say you can sin, then repent and you are forgiven, that must be nice for you?
Question: Are you a homophobe?

I didn't just say repent and you're forgiven. It's not a get out of hell free card to sin with impunity. I also said that you must come to Jesus Christ.

I'm a Christian and I'm a Baptist.

I agree with the Bible so that should answer your question.

Sorry you don't get to marginalize me with your labels. Nice try though.

[Hagbard Celine]

You look still and will continue to look at it as though they have no choice. I will always see it as a choice. To you its a minor thing because it has to be, otherwise you are wrong. For you happiness has to be the determining factor otherwise you are also wrong.

You cant use pleasure and happiness as the determining factor. You have to use right and wrong.

Running scams, cons and ripping people off blind make some people happy so I should accept that as well? So long as it makes my kids happy. I should accept that they are into grand theft because the rush makes them happy? I should accept them driving by and shooting people because they get some perverse pleasure out of it and that makes them happy? No, I wont accept it.

Your comparisons are inept because homosexuality doesn't victimize anyone. Having sex and loving someone who loves you back isn't a crime, whereas "shooting people" and "grand theft" are. See the difference?

[KitchenKitten99]

I may have conservative principles and negative views on homosexuality. But when it comes to my boys, I will not disown them or turn them out for something stupid like that. Homosexuality is NOT an illegal activity and I believe to compare it to something that is illegal (such as murder) is very wrong.

I view my kids as individuals that I want to have think and work for themselves. I have no intentions on trying to control every aspect of their lives, including sexuality and sexual decisions, especially beyond age 18. I will be there for them and try to guide them down the right path, and instill my conservative values in them as much as possible. In the end, I only want them to be happy. And if one or both turn out to be gay and it is who they are, then so be it. I love them for who they are. They are still part of me and part of their dad. They are still my babies and no matter if they are 5 or 50, they will always be my babies. Nothing helps me feel better more than hugs and kisses from them, and so help me, I don't think I could live without those hugs and kisses on a regular basis.

When I am old and frail and need someone to care for me (and/or their dad), I prefer it to be my own children, and have them willing to do so. Why would they have a desire to do so if I were to disown them on something so trivial in the grand scheme of things?

[Hagbard Celine]

I may have conservative principles and negative views on homosexuality. But when it comes to my boys, I will not disown them or turn them out for something stupid like that. Homosexuality is NOT an illegal activity and I believe to compare it to something that is illegal (such as murder) is very wrong.

I view my kids as individuals that I want to have think and work for themselves. I have no intentions on trying to control every aspect of their lives, including sexuality and sexual decisions, especially beyond age 18. I will be there for them and try to guide them down the right path, and instill my conservative values in them as much as possible. In the end, I only want them to be happy. And if one or both turn out to be gay and it is who they are, then so be it. I love them for who they are. They are still part of me and part of their dad. They are still my babies and no matter if they are 5 or 50, they will always be my babies. Nothing helps me feel better more than hugs and kisses from them, and so help me, I don't think I could live without those hugs and kisses on a regular basis.

When I am old and frail and need someone to care for me (and/or their dad), I prefer it to be my own children, and have them willing to do so. Why would they have a desire to do so if I were to disown them on something so trivial in the grand scheme of things?

Yes! We need more people on both sides of the spectrum like you who are willing to think about issues and develop a rational, reasoned opinion rather than just using their guts to jump to a conclusion. It sounds like you've got a good family Fuzz.

[KitchenKitten99]

Yes! We need more people on both sides of the spectrum like you who are willing to think about issues and develop a rational, reasoned opinion rather than just using their guts to jump to a conclusion. It sounds like you've got a good family Fuzz.

I believe that someone who is so damn quick to disown and shun a family member, especially their own flesh and blood child(ren) for something so f-ing stupid in the grand scheme of life and the living, is supremely selfish, a likely control-freak, doesn't have a Goddamn clue what family is or means, and probably doesn't deserve to have one in the first place.

In the end, we only have each other to depend on and if someone is going to be that petty, they deserve to be alone.

My boys are my life and will always be. I care only that they are happy and are content being themselves, whatever that may be for them.

[Kathianne]

You look still and will continue to look at it as though they have no choice. I will always see it as a choice. To you its a minor thing because it has to be, otherwise you are wrong. For you happiness has to be the determining factor otherwise you are also wrong.

You cant use pleasure and happiness as the determining factor. You have to use right and wrong.

Running scams, cons and ripping people off blind make some people happy so I should accept that as well? So long as it makes my kids happy. I should accept that they are into grand theft because the rush makes them happy? I should accept them driving by and shooting people because they get some perverse pleasure out of it and that makes them happy? No, I wont accept it.

If God forbid my kids were doing any of the crimes mentioned above, even if they murdered someone, I'd turn them in if I knew anything about it. I'd still love and support them though. Same with any choices they make, some make me happy, some not. Regardless of my level of happiness, I still love them, always will.

[Hagbard Celine]

You look still and will continue to look at it as though they have no choice. I will always see it as a choice. To you its a minor thing because it has to be, otherwise you are wrong. For you happiness has to be the determining factor otherwise you are also wrong.

You cant use pleasure and happiness as the determining factor. You have to use right and wrong.

Running scams, cons and ripping people off blind make some people happy so I should accept that as well? So long as it makes my kids happy. I should accept that they are into grand theft because the rush makes them happy? I should accept them driving by and shooting people because they get some perverse pleasure out of it and that makes them happy? No, I wont accept it.

You want to know which legal system does consider homosexuality to be a crime? Shariah law, that's the one.

[crin63]

I don't expect you to understand and quite frankly whether you do or not doesn't matter. You can call me heartless and all the other things you want too.

I fought for and got custody of my boys when they were 6 & 3. I'm the one who was up with them when they were sick, when they had bad dreams and when they just needed something. I hugged them everyday of their lives while they were/are at home. I went to almost all their games, I took my vacations around what they were doing and always with them. I've spent a lot more time with my kids than most dads do. So don't give me this crap about not loving my kids. There is nothing that would break my heart more then to not have my kids around but I won't compromise my convictions. Not for them not for anyone. Like it , don't like it, thats the way it is.

[glockmail]

I don't expect you to understand and quite frankly whether you do or not doesn't matter. You can call me heartless and all the other things you want too.

I fought for and got custody of my boys when they were 6 & 3. I'm the one who was up with them when they were sick, when they had bad dreams and when they just needed something. I hugged them everyday of their lives while they were/are at home. I went to almost all their games, I took my vacations around what they were doing and always with them. I've spent a lot more time with my kids than most dads do. So don't give me this crap about not loving my kids. There is nothing that would break my heart more then to not have my kids around but I won't compromise my convictions. Not for them not for anyone. Like it , don't like it, thats the way it is. Being a great Dad is the anti-gay. :clap:

[retiredman]

In the epistles of the new testament, there are many contradictory statements. James and his focus on works versus Paul's focus on grace being just two of them. Such contradictions undermine the absolutism of anyone's arguments that the epistles of the new testament represent the infallible pronouncement of God's word.

[crin63]

In the epistles of the new testament, there are many contradictory statements. James and his focus on works versus Paul's focus on grace being just two of them. Such contradictions undermine the absolutism of anyone's arguments that the epistles of the new testament represent the infallible pronouncement of God's word.

Examples??

[retiredman]

Examples??

of what? the contradictions between James and Paul? go read the new testament.

[crin63]

of what? the contradictions between James and Paul? go read the new testament.

Cute! I have read it several times.

I just figured with your wild accusation that the New Testament is not the infallible word of God that you might have an example handy.

So do you teach and preach from something that you think is in error, or do you not use the New Testament?

Thats interesting.

[Yurt]

In the epistles of the new testament, there are many contradictory statements. James and his focus on works versus Paul's focus on grace being just two of them. Such contradictions undermine the absolutism of anyone's arguments that the epistles of the new testament represent the infallible pronouncement of God's word.

you're not a preacher, you're an imam

[glockmail]

you're not a preacher, you're an imam:lol: Ayatollah ManfromMaine. I can just imagine the long grey beard with last weeks breakfast embedded in there with bits of tobacco spittle.

[Yurt]

:lol: Ayatollah ManfromMaine. I can just imagine the long grey beard with last weeks breakfast embedded in there with bits of tobacco spittle.

and pictures of the "president" of iran....i madejihadinmypants on his every wall

[retiredman]

Cute! I have read it several times.

I just figured with your wild accusation that the New Testament is not the infallible word of God that you might have an example handy.

So do you teach and preach from something that you think is in error, or do you not use the New Testament?

Thats interesting.

are you suggesting that James and Paul can both be right regarding works versus grace?

[glockmail]

....i madejihadinmypants....
Took me a while to pronounce it but then nearly busted a gut. Are you trying to make me Russert out right here and now?

[retiredman]

you're not a preacher, you're an imam

typical ad hominem attacks....

go read the new testament... reconcile James with Paul, and get back to me

[Yurt]

typical ad hominem attacks....

go read the new testament... reconcile James with Paul, and get back to me

i have and have researched the discrepancies. you talk just like an imam. that is not an attack, that is the truth. i feel sorry for your flock

[crin63]

are you suggesting that James and Paul can both be right regarding works versus grace?

Theres no argument of works versus grace, any good works James talks about is to Christians. So the grace is already there.

[retiredman]

Theres no argument of works versus grace, any good works James talks about is to Christians. So the grace is already there.

nice tap dance.

to suggest that there is not a dichotomy between Paul and James is laughable.

[retiredman]

i have and have researched the discrepancies.


what is the result of your "research"?

[crin63]

go read the new testament... reconcile James with Paul, and get back to me

Talk about a tap dance. Get back to me when you have an example and not just go read the New Testament. Theres a tap dance for you. Your feet should hurt the way your dancing.

[Yurt]

what is the result of your "research"?

your quotes are telling.... why is it you cannot defend your position? why is it that you cannnot deny that imams say exactly what you say? hmmm.

if you don't believe i researched, i don't care, you are not a real preacher, you are a muslim....

[retiredman]

if you don't believe i researched, i don't care
I believe you have conducted research into the dichotomy presented between Paul and James. I asked you what the results of your research revealed about that dichotomy. How can both of those gentlemen be speaking the unadulterated word of God when they diametrically oppose one another on the issue of works versus grace?

[My Winter Storm]

You look still and will continue to look at it as though they have no choice. I will always see it as a choice.

Okay, so their actual homosexual behavior would be a choice, but their orientation would not be. Whether you believe orientation is a choice is up to you, but logical thinking tells you it isn't.

That said, what would you want your kids to do? If they had feelings for people of the same sex, I take it you would not want them to act on those feelings, correct?
Would you be okay with them feeling an attraction to those of the same sex provided they did not act on it, then?

[Psychoblues]

Yes, why wouldn't I?

[5stringJeff]

In the epistles of the new testament, there are many contradictory statements. James and his focus on works versus Paul's focus on grace being just two of them. Such contradictions undermine the absolutism of anyone's arguments that the epistles of the new testament represent the infallible pronouncement of God's word.

Out of curiosity, how can you preach from the Bible if you do not believe it is the infallible word of God?

[retiredman]

Out of curiosity, how can you preach from the Bible if you do not believe it is the infallible word of God?

I do the vast majority of my sermons about the words written in red.

Just out of curiousity, I wonder why you avoided addressing the well known conflict between the writings of Paul and James?

[Abbey Marie]

I do the vast majority of my sermons about the words written in red.

Just out of curiousity, I wonder why you avoided addressing the well known conflict between the writings of Paul and James?

As I recall, you were the one who brought up the conflict. Fairness and logic dictate that you are responsible for elucidating the point. :)

[retiredman]

As I recall, you were the one who brought up the conflict. Fairness and logic dictate that you are responsible for elucidating the point. :)


Paul says:

"Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."


James says:

"You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

[5stringJeff]

Paul says:

"Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."


James says:

"You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

I see no conflict. I believe that if one has actual faith in Christ, his/her actions (works) will reflect that faith. If one does not have that faith, they will not live appropriately. See James 2:20: "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." (NASB) Nowhere does the Bible argues that demons will be saved purely because they believe in God; instead, both Paul and James argue that faith leads to good works.

A much more eloquent argument that expresses my beliefs can be found here (http://www.carm.org/questions/faithorworks.htm).

[actsnoblemartin]

i'd like to hear more about the conflict between paul and james. since im not a christian, i dont know much about it


I do the vast majority of my sermons about the words written in red.

Just out of curiousity, I wonder why you avoided addressing the well known conflict between the writings of Paul and James?

[Kathianne]

I see no conflict. I believe that if one has actual faith in Christ, his/her actions (works) will reflect that faith. If one does not have that faith, they will not live appropriately. See James 2:20: "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." (NASB) Nowhere does the Bible argues that demons will be saved purely because they believe in God; instead, both Paul and James argue that faith leads to good works.

A much more eloquent argument that expresses my beliefs can be found here (http://www.carm.org/questions/faithorworks.htm).

Jeff, deviating from MM's bible stance, as a parent, would you disown a child that was homosexual? I've made my position clear, while not condoning it or enabling it, I wouldn't abandon my children. I understand you are much more grounded in bible than I, but what would you do? I'm lucky, my three are already in their 20's and preferences are clear, they are heteros, as most are.

[Yurt]

I believe you have conducted research into the dichotomy presented between Paul and James. I asked you what the results of your research revealed about that dichotomy. How can both of those gentlemen be speaking the unadulterated word of God when they diametrically oppose one another on the issue of works versus grace?

jeff has posted findings that are similar to what i discovered. these are my beliefs as well:


10. Experience of Salvation:
In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ, as Substitute and Example. This faith which receives salvation comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God's grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God's sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God's law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (2 Cor. 5:17-21; John 3:16; Gal. 1:4; 4:4-7; Titus 3:3-7; John 16:8; Gal. 3:13, 14; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; Rom. 10:17; Luke 17:5; Mark 9:23, 24; Eph. 2:5-10; Rom. 3:21-26; Col. 1:13, 14; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 3:26; John 3:3-8; 1 Peter 1:23; Rom. 12:2; Heb. 8:7-12; Eze. 36:25-27; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:1-4; 5:6-10.)

11. Growing in Christ:
By His death on the cross Jesus triumphed over the forces of evil. He who subjugated the demonic spirits during His earthly ministry has broken their power and made certain their ultimate doom. Jesus' victory gives us victory over the evil forces that still seek to control us, as we walk with Him in peace, joy, and assurance of His love. Now the Holy Spirit dwells within us and empowers us. Continually committed to Jesus as our Saviour and Lord, we are set free from the burden of our past deeds. No longer do we live in the darkness, fear of evil powers, ignorance, and meaninglessness of our former way of life. In this new freedom in Jesus, we are called to grow into the likeness of His character, communing with Him daily in prayer, feeding on His Word, meditating on it and on His providence, singing His praises, gathering together for worship, and participating in the mission of the Church. As we give ourselves in loving service to those around us and in witnessing to His salvation, His constant presence with us through the Spirit transforms every moment and every task into a spiritual experience. (Ps 1:1, 2; 23:4; 77:11, 12; Col 1:13, 14; 2:6, 14, 15; Luke 10:17-20; Eph 5:19, 20; 6:12-18; 1 Thess 5:23; 2 Peter 2:9; 3:18; 2 Cor. 3:17, 18; Phil 3:7-14; 1 Thess 5:16-18; Matt 20:25-28; John 20:21; Gal 5:22-25; Rom 8:38, 39; 1 John 4:4; Heb 10:25.)

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

at one point i spent a great deal of time reading romans and seeking an answer to the works/faith issue. after reading romans and trying to understand the complex issue (paul struggled mightily to understand it and explain it) i came away with the understanding that works alone are not enough and faith alone is not really what is about. the devil believes in god, but the devils works obviously are not in harmony. when one has true belief or faith in what god is about, i believe it is impossible to not grow more like jesus everyday. to understand the cross, to truly have faith in the cross causes only continued growth in perfection for we truly begin to understand and accept the sacrifice of the cross.

your quotes do not state that we are justified by faith alone. can you show me where paul said that we are justified/saved through faith alone or faith only?

[Yurt]

mfm, do you support this version of faith and works:


In the white community, the path to a more perfect union means acknowledging that what ails the African-American community does not just exist in the minds of black people; that the legacy of discrimination - and current incidents of discrimination, while less overt than in the past - are real and must be addressed. Not just with words, but with deeds

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/18/obama-race-speech-read-t_n_92077.html

he sat under the tutelage of "DR" wright and he believes this, i bet wright does too, so i guess your "church" believes that works only apply to whites....

[crin63]

Paul says:

"Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."


James says:

"You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

Paul is in reference to Gen. 15:6 and James is in reference to Gen. 22.

In Gen 15:6 we see where Abraham was justified by faith, he believed in the Lord.
In Gen. 22 we see where Abraham was justified in the sight of men. They could see his faith by his works.

[5stringJeff]

Jeff, deviating from MM's bible stance, as a parent, would you disown a child that was homosexual? I've made my position clear, while not condoning it or enabling it, I wouldn't abandon my children. I understand you are much more grounded in bible than I, but what would you do? I'm lucky, my three are already in their 20's and preferences are clear, they are heteros, as most are.

Disown? No. They're still my children, and I will always love them dearly. But I would certainly make it clear that I disapprove of the lifestyle, just as I would if I found that one of my children was a criminal, drug user, or living with a bf/gf outside of marriage. I would tell them that they needed to change their ways and repent and 'get right' with God.

[Kathianne]

Disown? No. They're still my children, and I will always love them dearly. But I would certainly make it clear that I disapprove of the lifestyle, just as I would if I found that one of my children was a criminal, drug user, or living with a bf/gf outside of marriage. I would tell them that they needed to change their ways and repent and 'get right' with God.

Pretty much the same as I said. It's the same as if they broke the law, I wouldn't refrain from turning them in. After that, I'd support them.

[Noir]

Disown? No. They're still my children, and I will always love them dearly. But I would certainly make it clear that I disapprove of the lifestyle, just as I would if I found that one of my children was a criminal, drug user, or living with a bf/gf outside of marriage. I would tell them that they needed to change their ways and repent and 'get right' with God.

It's a slight step of topic but; What's the problem of living with someone before you marry them?

[crin63]

It's a slight step of topic but; What's the problem of living with someone before you marry them?

It depends on your view of the Bible as to whether you accept this answer. It's as much a sexual sin as homosexuality. Sex with anyone outside the bounds of marriage between a man and a woman is sin according to the Bible.

[crin63]

You all keep using the word, "disown". I never said I would disown them. Disown would leave no option for them to ever return. They have an option for return, change. I would treat it just like the Prodigal son.

[Missileman]

Sex with anyone outside the bounds of marriage between a man and a woman is sin according to the Bible.

Can you cite a chapter and verse for that please?

[crin63]

Can you cite a chapter and verse for that please?

1Co 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

I can give you more if you like.

[Roomy]

1Co 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

I can give you more if you like.

I would like you to name the denominations that fully endorse those? The church of you I suspect, congregation of one.

[crin63]

I would like you to name the denominations that fully endorse those? The church of you I suspect, congregation of one.

Baptist Churches. Since I don't personally know every single Baptist Church in the whole world and there are several different Baptist positions obviously there are some that do not. But I know many that do.

[LiberalNation]

and many that are a bunch of hypocrits.

[Roomy]

Baptist Churches. Since I don't personally know every single Baptist Church in the whole world and there are several different Baptist positions obviously there are some that do not. But I know many that do.

Of course you do, you need to feel validated.Personally, I believe your opinion to be a paradox and we therefore have nothing much more to say to each other, as if we did anyway.I wish you well.

[5stringJeff]

I would like you to name the denominations that fully endorse those? The church of you I suspect, congregation of one.

Any denomination that accepts the Bible as the Word of God would accept these. While that ought to be all Christian denominations, nowadays there are some liberal denominations which do not accept this anymore.

[Abbey Marie]

Any denomination that accepts the Bible as the Word of God would accept these. While that ought to be all Christian denominations, nowadays there are some liberal denominations which do not accept this anymore.

Exactly, Jeff.

[crin63]

and many that are a bunch of hypocrits.

You're absolutely correct about that.

[My Winter Storm]

You all keep using the word, "disown". I never said I would disown them. Disown would leave no option for them to ever return. They have an option for return, change. I would treat it just like the Prodigal son.

What if they can't change? It'd be hard for you to understand, because you don't know what it feels like to be different. It sounds easy to change but it's not that easy. Hopefully one day you'll be able to see that, and accept your kids the way they are.

[Roomy]

Any denomination that accepts the Bible as the Word of God would accept these. While that ought to be all Christian denominations, nowadays there are some liberal denominations which do not accept this anymore.

Most christians do not live by letter of those words and if you are honest enough you will admit that.

[Yurt]

Most christians do not live by letter of those words and if you are honest enough you will admit that.

what are you getting at? that christians are not perfect and are in fact in need of Christ's salvation?

[crin63]

What if they can't change? It'd be hard for you to understand, because you don't know what it feels like to be different. It sounds easy to change but it's not that easy. Hopefully one day you'll be able to see that, and accept your kids the way they are.

Thank you for what I believe to be sincerity on your part. I understand what you are trying to say and I do appreciate your response.

I truly believe and practice what I am saying. I am unwavering in my convictions no matter how hard they are for me to bear.

[gabosaurus]

If one of your kids gets divorced, I hope you will retain your standards expel him from your family. Since divorce is against the word of God.

[My Winter Storm]

Thank you for what I believe to be sincerity on your part. I understand what you are trying to say and I do appreciate your response.

You are welcome. Thank you for showing me such respect.:)


I truly believe and practice what I am saying. I am unwavering in my convictions no matter how hard they are for me to bear.

The thing I have trouble with is, lets say it can be proven that homosexuality is not a choice. If it isn't a choice, then it's no ones fault they feel the way they do. How can you stick to a belief that something is wrong, at the same time knowing that person cannot control, or change the way they feel?

[Sitarro]

You are welcome. Thank you for showing me such respect.:)



The thing I have trouble with is, lets say it can be proven that homosexuality is not a choice. If it isn't a choice, then it's no ones fault they feel the way they do. How can you stick to a belief that something is wrong, at the same time knowing that person cannot control, or change the way they feel?

Pedophiles believe that they were born that way and it is not a choice for them, should we excuse what they do? Judging by the number of times I have been hit on by queers, that even after they are told that I am straight they continue with the line "try it, you might like it, how will you know if you've never tried it?"......... that tells me that not only do they not respect who I am but they indeed feel it is a choice.
My response is usually "I've never jumped off of a skyscraper and yet I'm sure that I wouldn't like it".

[My Winter Storm]

Any gay people who come on to you when you clearly tell them you are not interested deserve a good punch in the nose. They are not showing you any respect.

Having said that...pedophiles cannot help the urges they have toward children. No one chooses to be attracted to children, and I can't imagine how it must feel to feel such an attraction. Pedophila is illegal, and wrong, because there is a victim - the child. Pedophiles have to control their urges, and often, they choose not to. They know it's wrong, but they do it anyway.

Homosexuality may be considered wrong by some people, but the difference between it and pedophila is that homosexuality doesn't have a victim, just consenting adults.

[crin63]

You are welcome. Thank you for showing me such respect.:)
The thing I have trouble with is, lets say it can be proven that homosexuality is not a choice. If it isn't a choice, then it's no ones fault they feel the way they do. How can you stick to a belief that something is wrong, at the same time knowing that person cannot control, or change the way they feel?

You're welcome. We can have strong debate but we don't have to be enemy's.
I thought you were sincere and though I disagree with your position I appreciated your sincerity.

I think what you are proposing is a big what if and I can't divorce my views from what the Bible says. Its a strongly held conviction.

[My Winter Storm]

You're welcome. We can have strong debate but we don't have to be enemy's.
I thought you were sincere and though I disagree with your position I appreciated your sincerity.

I think what you are proposing is a big what if and I can't divorce my views from what the Bible says. Its a strongly held conviction.

Is there anything the Bible says that you don't believe? Do you believe everything the Bible says, or are there some parts you choose to disbelieve because you don't think they are correct?:)

[crin63]

Is there anything the Bible says that you don't believe? Do you believe everything the Bible says, or are there some parts you choose to disbelieve because you don't think they are correct?:)

I actually accept all of it as true and correct.

[Psychoblues]

Typical excuse for ignorance, zero. Pedophilia and homosexuality are not connected in any way other than in your mind which is what the pukes would have you to believe.


Pedophiles believe that they were born that way and it is not a choice for them, should we excuse what they do? Judging by the number of times I have been hit on by queers, that even after they are told that I am straight they continue with the line "try it, you might like it, how will you know if you've never tried it?"......... that tells me that not only do they not respect who I am but they indeed feel it is a choice.
My response is usually "I've never jumped off of a skyscraper and yet I'm sure that I wouldn't like it".

Pedophiles are very sick criminals whatever sex they choose as their targets. How are you handling your pedophilia?

[My Winter Storm]

I actually accept all of it as true and correct.

The Bible says gay people should be stoned to death. Obviously you don't believe this because you don't seem to advocate it...I think the Bible also says that psychics should be killed as well, as well as a bunch of other people in that Lectivus chapter - surely you don't believe all of that?

[5stringJeff]

The Bible says gay people should be stoned to death. Obviously you don't believe this because you don't seem to advocate it...I think the Bible also says that psychics should be killed as well, as well as a bunch of other people in that Lectivus chapter - surely you don't believe all of that?

If you read the Bible holistically, you would find that Old Testament punishments and offerings for sins are no longer required; however, the moral basis of the law remains unchanged, as does the proscription against homosexuality - or any type of sexual immorality, for that matter.

[crin63]

The Bible says gay people should be stoned to death. Obviously you don't believe this because you don't seem to advocate it...I think the Bible also says that psychics should be killed as well, as well as a bunch of other people in that Lectivus chapter - surely you don't believe all of that?

Please for give me for not getting back to you I got distracted elsewhere. If that happens in the future you can PM me and remind me if you actually want an answer from me.



If you read the Bible holistically, you would find that Old Testament punishments and offerings for sins are no longer required; however, the moral basis of the law remains unchanged, as does the proscription against homosexuality - or any type of sexual immorality, for that matter.

I agree with Jeff's summation on your question. I think it is well stated.

[Roomy]

I actually accept all of it as true and correct.


If you accept it all as true and correct, how do you quantify and interpret the contradictions, and please don't ask me to link to the contradictions, they are numerous and if you are as well versed as you say and indeed should be then you don't need me to point any of them out to you.

[Roomy]

I agree with Jeff's summation on your question. I think it is well stated.


You cannot say it is all true and correct then agree with a laymans interpretation of gods word over gods literal word:laugh2:it makes me laugh that you would do such a thing given everything else you lay claim to be true.:laugh2:

[crin63]

Of course you do, you need to feel validated.Personally, I believe your opinion to be a paradox and we therefore have nothing much more to say to each other, as if we did anyway.I wish you well.

I thought you were through with our discussion. Please excuse me for thinking you meant what you said. I won't make that mistake in the future.


If you accept it all as true and correct, how do you quantify and interpret the contradictions, and please don't ask me to link to the contradictions, they are numerous and if you are as well versed as you say and indeed should be then you don't need me to point any of them out to you.

I find no contradiction in the Bible at all.


You cannot say it is all true and correct then agree with a laymans interpretation of gods word over gods literal word:laugh2:it makes me laugh that you would do such a thing given everything else you lay claim to be true.:laugh2:

I take what is meant to be literal which would be dictated by context and common sense, literally. I take the parts that are figurative as figurative again dictated by context and common sense.

Enjoy your laugh! You're not the 1st and you certainly won't be the last. If thats all it took to bother me I would be in a world of hurt. I just consider the source and continue on with day. I wish you well!

[Roomy]

I thought you were through with our discussion. Please excuse me for thinking you meant what you said. I won't make that mistake in the future.



I find no contradiction in the Bible at all.



I take what is meant to be literal which would be dictated by context and common sense, literally. I take the parts that are figurative as figurative again dictated by context and common sense.

Enjoy your laugh! You're not the 1st and you certainly won't be the last. If thats all it took to bother me I would be in a world of hurt. I just consider the source and continue on with day. I wish you well!

Hahhahahahaha a backhanded insult from the holier than thou holy man:laugh2:

Methinks I rattled somebodies cage:laugh2:

1 to me, answer my question when you pull yourself together preacher wannabe:laugh2:

[Roomy]

I love it when literal means whatever you want it too:laugh2::laugh2:

[Missileman]

I love it when literal means whatever you want it too:laugh2::laugh2:

It's the method of "convenience" used to decide which parts of the Bible to take literally and which parts should be interpreted that cracks me up.

[Roomy]

It's the method of "convenience" used to decide which parts of the Bible to take literally and which parts should be interpreted that cracks me up.


Then they quote it verbatim!

Then they tell you what it means:laugh2:

Then they tell you what it really means:laugh2::laugh2:

Then they tell you what it really, really means:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

Then they tell you what it should and infact does mean as they see it considering the source and the context:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

[Abbey Marie]

Hahhahahahaha a backhanded insult from the holier than thou holy man:laugh2:

Methinks I rattled somebodies cage:laugh2:

1 to me, answer my question when you pull yourself together preacher wannabe:laugh2:

Roomy, lately I have seen you attempting to ridicule Christianity, and this perfectly nice man and his Christian beliefs, over an over. You are coming across as quite Christianphobic.

[Roomy]

Roomy, lately I have seen you attempting to ridicule Christianity, and this perfectly nice man and his Christian beliefs, over an over. You are coming across as quite Christianphobic.

You will no doubt see it any way you want to.
I prefer to think of myself as hypocritphobic and liarphobic and arseholephobic.Carry on.:cool:

[GW in Ohio]

Would you accept your child being a conservative?

Yes, of course. I never let politics get in the way of human relations.

Some of my best friends are conservatives.

[mundame]

The thing I have trouble with is, lets say it can be proven that homosexuality is not a choice. If it isn't a choice, then it's no ones fault they feel the way they do. How can you stick to a belief that something is wrong, at the same time knowing that person cannot control, or change the way they feel?


It may well not be a choice, in one sense: it could be a sort of birth defect of the brain. A lot of research has been suggesting that for decades, and lately there's a lot of coverage of it in the news.

HOWEVER, a brain predilection is one thing: parading around in outrageous costumes on "Gay Pride Day" is of course a choice to offend society.

Going to gay bars and searching people out deliberately and catching AIDS and not caring who gets it from you ---- all that is a choice, and not a moral choice.

Pretending that two men having sex should be dignified by greater society as a "marriage" is a choice: that's no birth defect.


And the ultimate reason that I don't believe it is an inborn doom is that homosexuals try to reproduce more homosexuals -------------- by seducing young boys and teenagers. And it works: it wouldn't work if only people with a given brain pattern were only and always homosexual. These perverts get young people to imprint their sexual excitement in homosexual ways as a life pattern so there will be more around for them to use. This was NOT what parents had in mind when they sent their sons to Scouts or the congressional Page Program, so I think that's pretty awful.

[gabosaurus]

Some of your kids might be homosexual at this moment. Depending on your stance and attitude, you may never know.

[Abbey Marie]

Some of your kids might be homosexual at this moment. Depending on your stance and attitude, you may never know.

That's true. Though I think eventually, you will know.

[bullypulpit]

I find no contradiction in the Bible at all.

Then you aren't paying attention.

[crin63]

Then you aren't paying attention.

You guys can claim that all you want. Twist it, spin it, turn on its head, do whatever is that you Libs do with it so that you can try to discredit it. You simply don't want to believe it and no matter what is said you will find a way to distort the Bible. That's your prerogative.

[gabosaurus]

That is because religion is a belief. Unlike countries that have an enforce state religion, Americans are free to believe what they want. Or not believe at.

Some of us choose to believe in God. Others of you do not.

[My Winter Storm]

Going to gay bars and searching people out deliberately and catching AIDS and not caring who gets it from you ---- all that is a choice, and not a moral choice.

It is a choice to take part in Gay Pride, but isn't it also your choice as to whether you allow yourself to be offended? You can choose to ignore it, or you can choose to be offended.

[Yurt]

That is because religion is a belief. Unlike countries that have an enforce state religion, Americans are free to believe what they want. Or not believe at.

Some of us choose to believe in God. Others of you do not.

in trying to understand islam, could you please tell me how islamic parents would treat their homosexual children according to the rules of islam...

[-Cp]

Its pretty simple. I didn't say easy, I said simple.

My children already know my position and what the consequences are. I wont tolerate any sexual sin from them. By committing sexual sin they have made the choice to leave my home. They would always be welcomed back into my life if they repent of it and turn completely away from it.

I would have to seek counsel as to how I would handle it if they married the person they were fornicating with.

Since no matter how many laws are passed homosexual marriage will never be legitimate, the only option would be for them to repent, walk away and never return to that lifestyle to once again be a part of my life.

I truly hope that it comes to any of this.

Do you do that to them for other forms of non-repentant sins in their lives or do you only chock-up sexual-sins the unpardonable ones?

[eighballsidepocket]

When in doubt...........Put Jesus into the picture or scenario.

Would Jesus enter the home of a sinner? He did on numerous occasions according to the bible. Did He love those sinners? Yes He did...............Did He condone or agree with their sin? No. There's an interesting little man in the bible named Zacheus. He was considered a sinner of sinners by his own countrymen. He collected taxes on behalf of the Romans who were in control of Israel. Also he was a thief, as he took more in taxes that he was allowed. He apparently lived a fairly comfortable, wealthy life because of this unethical activity.

One day as Jesus was passing by, He looked up and saw Zacheus in a tree trying to get a better view of the Messiah. Jesus called out to him, and said, that He, Jesus was dining at his/Zacheus's house.

The religious leaders were put-off, and thought Jesus Himself was in error and sinful for going to this very sinful man's house.........and to top it off, dining with him!

Jesus also saved an adultress from being stoned to death by telling the condemming crowd..........."Who is without sin cast the first stone!". With that the crowd dropped the stones and dispersed.......as they were placed under great conviction for condemming this woman and basically not taking into account that their own pot was just as black.

So, what does a Christian parent do if their son or daughter proclaims or comes out and makes it clear that they are embracing the homosexual lifestyle? Well, first of all, if we place Jesus back into the situation, the Christian parent should continue to love that child. Secondly, Jesus told the adultress woman after saving her from the mob, "Go and sin no more!". Ok, so you have this child or young adult son or daughter that has or will be involved in possible same sex relationships..........Can you stop it? Most likely not. Do you, as a parent have some premises to stand upon in this situation? I would say so.

First of all this wayward offspring is sinning according to the bible.........Romans Chapter 1 succinctly reveals that. So in the most upfront yet loving way, you inform your child that what they are doing is wrong according to the bible/Christian faith. Secondly, to kick them out of the house has to stipulate how they/your child conducts themselves under your roof. Are they inviting or sneeking in a lover and displaying actions or going all the way sexually in your home? If so, I'd say it's tough love time. We gave the "walking papers" to two of our three sons when they were 18 or older when their actions within our home created undue stress from confrontations, breaking rules of the home, and basic disrespect towards their parents. One got kicked out do to deceit, stealing, lieing, and disrespectful behavior towards his parents. The other son had to leave do to illicit, illegal drug useage under our roof. All had received warnings or new what was right and wrong under our roof, and we didn't operate on the three strikes rule, but acted quicker.

When it comes to sexual misconduct..........As I see it with not only our sons pre-maritally engaging in it, or if they had been living a homosexual existence, they would still be welcome under our roof, but their sinning would have to stay from our home. If they brought a lover, there would not be allowed any interaction between them that was anything but normal friend to friend actions. Anything bordering on sexual, or lover's type conduct would not be tolerated.

Our home is my wife's and mine..........Our children are welcome in our home, but they must leave their sinful baggage behind that mocks mine and my wife's faith. Tolerance is a much abused word nowadays, and is the great scape goat clause used by those in denial of their sinful ways.

We are all sinners..........None of us measure up to God's holiness. We do however have a responsibility to love the sinner as Christians, but not tolerate the sin or act of disobedience to God's ways or desires for our lives. Both of our sons came back to live at home after a time of "pruning" in their own lives. Each came back under the condtions of signing a contract that the wife and I put together. Basically the contract stipulated that this home was a welcome place for them, but they had to obide by Mom and Dad's rules to be welcome to stay. They had to either get with it in school or get a full time job, and do productive things with their lives. Secondly, if they lied, used deceit, drugs, or number of other anti-social behavior in our house, it would mean, immediate expulsion again.

We can blessedly say, that both of those sons are happily married young men, and both have blessed us with beautiful grandkids. The son's transformations were not overnight, but over years.

If I have a son or daughter who is homosexual, they are welcome in my home, but will face expulsion if they act-out, or do any thing under our roof with that lifestyle that brings disrespect to our home, or us as parents.

Again, I can't control what my children do elsewhere. They are adults. I can pray for them, and when they come for advice, try to steer them in ethical, wise directions. If they respect our home and their parents while in that home, they are welcome.