Iranian women rights activists arrested

[LiberalNation]

Shamefull. Womans' rights still have a long way to go in the ME. Hopefully one day the actions of brave woman like these will fix the situation.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070304/wl_mideast_afp/iranwomenrightsdemo

TEHRAN (AFP) - Iranian security forces on Sunday arrested around 30 women's rights activists rallying outside a Tehran court where a group of their fellow campaigners were on trial over a demonstration last year.

"My clients and other women who had gathered in front of the court were arrested," Nasrin Sotoodeh, the lawyer for the accused, was quoted as saying by the ISNA news agency.

According to unofficial reports, around 30 people were detained, including some of the most prominent women's rights activists in Iran.

The protestors had gathered in front of the revolutionary court in solidarity with five women on trial over their roles in a demonstration which was broken up by police in June last year.

Nushin Ahmadi Khorasani, Parvin Ardalan, Shahla Entesari, Susan Tahmasebi and Fariba Davudi Mohajer were standing trial for organising an "unauthorised" rally to ask for equal rights for women.

It was not clear which of the accused were among those arrested.

Sotoodeh later told AFP that the arrested activists had been transferred to the notorious Evin prison in northern Tehran.

"The families of those (arrested) who do not have a problem have been told to bring in property documents to bail them out," the lawyer said. "But this does not apply to those who do have a problem."

Sotoodeh said that the authorities have still not officially said how many people were arrested and or released their names.

Seventy people, most of them women, were arrested at the protest last June when they called for improved rights and changes to laws discriminating against women.

Under Iranian law, married women have to go through a lengthy process to be granted a divorce, and the testimony of two women is equal to that of one man.

Rights groups claimed that some demonstrators at that protest were beaten by the police.

Those arrested in June were all subsequently released, although one detained protester, reformist ex-MP Ali-Akbar Musavi Khoini, was held in prison until October

[MtnBiker]

Does the idea of Western women's rights reconcile with Islamic rule?

[Gaffer]

In islam women are second class citizens. That's why they wear the hajib and can't go anywhere without being accompanied by a male family member. They cannot drive or own anything. A woman that is raped is subject to execution. It's all there in the koran, which is what all the islamic countries recognize as the law. No one is going to get any rights when islam rules.

[Abbey Marie]

These are brave women.

[Hobbit]

In islam women are second class citizens. That's why they wear the hajib and can't go anywhere without being accompanied by a male family member. They cannot drive or own anything. A woman that is raped is subject to execution. It's all there in the koran, which is what all the islamic countries recognize as the law. No one is going to get any rights when islam rules.

Most of that stuff isn't actually in there. Shariah law is a 'make it up as you go' legal code. The primary reason men get away with doing such horrible things to women is because women are forbidden to learn to read, meaning they've never read the Koran.

[Gaffer]

Most of that stuff isn't actually in there. Shariah law is a 'make it up as you go' legal code. The primary reason men get away with doing such horrible things to women is because women are forbidden to learn to read, meaning they've never read the Koran.

The stuff is in there. And your right they aren't allowed to learn to read or get an education. It's all there in the koran, the hadaith and the sharia (sp). The only things lower than women are infidels and jews.

[Dilloduck]

Shamefull. Womans' rights still have a long way to go in the ME. Hopefully one day the actions of brave woman like these will fix the situation.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070304/wl_mideast_afp/iranwomenrightsdemo

TEHRAN (AFP) - Iranian security forces on Sunday arrested around 30 women's rights activists rallying outside a Tehran court where a group of their fellow campaigners were on trial over a demonstration last year.

"My clients and other women who had gathered in front of the court were arrested," Nasrin Sotoodeh, the lawyer for the accused, was quoted as saying by the ISNA news agency.

According to unofficial reports, around 30 people were detained, including some of the most prominent women's rights activists in Iran.

The protestors had gathered in front of the revolutionary court in solidarity with five women on trial over their roles in a demonstration which was broken up by police in June last year.

Nushin Ahmadi Khorasani, Parvin Ardalan, Shahla Entesari, Susan Tahmasebi and Fariba Davudi Mohajer were standing trial for organising an "unauthorised" rally to ask for equal rights for women.

It was not clear which of the accused were among those arrested.

Sotoodeh later told AFP that the arrested activists had been transferred to the notorious Evin prison in northern Tehran.

"The families of those (arrested) who do not have a problem have been told to bring in property documents to bail them out," the lawyer said. "But this does not apply to those who do have a problem."

Sotoodeh said that the authorities have still not officially said how many people were arrested and or released their names.

Seventy people, most of them women, were arrested at the protest last June when they called for improved rights and changes to laws discriminating against women.

Under Iranian law, married women have to go through a lengthy process to be granted a divorce, and the testimony of two women is equal to that of one man.

Rights groups claimed that some demonstrators at that protest were beaten by the police.

Those arrested in June were all subsequently released, although one detained protester, reformist ex-MP Ali-Akbar Musavi Khoini, was held in prison until October

Would you suggest that the West intervene on the part of the women or would that just create MORE Islamic chauvenist pigs ?

[Nienna]

The stuff is in there. And your right they aren't allowed to learn to read or get an education. It's all there in the koran, the hadaith and the sharia (sp). The only things lower than women are infidels and jews.

I am not familiar with the Koran. In the Bible, when it tells a woman to submit to her husband (not ALL men), the passage is followed by instruction for the man. For instance, in 1Peter 3, Peter instructs wive to submit to their husbands, to live with purity and reverence, and to avoid vanity. Immediately following this passage, Peter instructs men to be considerate as they live with their wives, to treat them with especial respect as coheirs of the kingdom of God. Many times, men chose to ignore the second halves of the messages, but they were still there.

Is that the way it goes in the Koran? Are there accompanying instructions for men?

[CSM]

I am not familiar with the Koran. In the Bible, when it tells a woman to submit to her husband (not ALL men), the passage is followed by instruction for the man. For instance, in 1Peter 3, Peter instructs wive to submit to their husbands, to live with purity and reverence, and to avoid vanity. Immediately following this passage, Peter instructs men to be considerate as they live with their wives, to treat them with especial respect as coheirs of the kingdom of God. Many times, men chose to ignore the second halves of the messages, but they were still there.

Is that the way it goes in the Koran? Are there accompanying instructions for men?

Of course, but they usually involve something like recommendations for beating your wife daily.

[LiberalNation]

Not really from what I know of the Koran it treats woman about as well as the bible except for the viel being a requirment.

[CSM]

Not really from what I know of the Koran it treats woman about as well as the bible except for the viel being a requirment.

My comment was sarcasm....guess you are not used to that

[CSM]

But in the interestof being truthful:

4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

I'm thinking some female posters on this board would be all black and blue!

[MtnBiker]

Not really from what I know of the Koran it treats woman about as well as the bible except for the viel being a requirment.

Perhaps a look at this woman's bookhttp://www.womensrightsblog.com/2007/02/ayaan_hirsi_ali_journy_of_an_i.html, will give you a better understanding of how islamic women are to be treated by the guide of the koran.

[shattered]

But in the interestof being truthful:



I'm thinking some female posters on this board would be all black and blue!

I dunno about black and blue.. I don't know any woman that would tolerate it once, much less repeatedly...

[CSM]

I dunno about black and blue.. I don't know any woman that would tolerate it once, much less repeatedly...

Simple...because Allah says so! Besides, who could she turn to for help?

[shattered]

Simple...because Allah says so! Besides, who could she turn to for help?

I dunno..but you specifically said some people on this board. :D

...and "because XXXX says so" has never cut it for me..

[Gaffer]

Beatings, genital mutilation, honor killings, forced marriages, denied education, head to toe covering, must have four witnesses to testify against a man that rapes her, it takes two women to equal one mans testimony, can be execured for being raped. That's a few of the islamic laws concerning women. There's more but I have to go look them all up and I am busy doing other things right now.

There is no love taught in islam, only dominance.

[glockmail]

I am not familiar with the Koran. .....

Is that the way it goes in the Koran? Are there accompanying instructions for men?

Not quite.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html

[CSM]

I dunno..but you specifically said some people on this board. :D

...and "because XXXX says so" has never cut it for me..

true enough. as for ALLAH said so...well you know what I think about that!

[CSM]

Beatings, genital mutilation, honor killings, forced marriages, denied education, head to toe covering, must have four witnesses to testify against a man that rapes her, it takes two women to equal one mans testimony, can be execured for being raped. That's a few of the islamic laws concerning women. There's more but I have to go look them all up and I am busy doing other things right now.

There is no love taught in islam, only dominance.

The point is that LN thinks women are treated just fine in Muslim countries; she obviously has not been paying attention.

[glockmail]

The point is that LN thinks women are treated just fine in Muslim countries; she obviously has not been paying attention.

She is obviously prescribing to "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", with George W. Bush and our military being her enemy.

[Abbey Marie]

She is obviously prescribing to "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", with George W. Bush and our military being her enemy.

If Muslims ever gain power here, she will also be promoting the subtler theme of "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face".

[LiberalNation]

The point is that LN thinks women are treated just fine in Muslim countries; she obviously has not been paying attention.

Where the hell are you getting that. Just read my first post. i said they were far behind on the subject of womans rights. I just did not condemn the religion (Islam) for being the sole cause seeing as most religions even christianity if you read the texts preach like things on womans issues. It's the tribal nature, historic culture, relgious fantaticism, and poverty of those problem in such countries. not the religion alone.

Sometime I really wonder if you all read what I actually write before jumping to the conclusions.

[CSM]

Where the hell are you getting that. Just read my first post. i said they were far behind on the subject of womans rights. I just did not condemn the religion (Islam) for being the sole cause seeing as most religions even christianity if you read the texts preach like things on womans issues. It's the tribal nature, historic culture, relgious fantaticism, and poverty of those problem in such countries. not the religion alone.

Sometime I really wonder if you all read what I actually write before jumping to the conclusions.

Post #10 this thread...that's where!

[LiberalNation]

No I replied to your comment that I didn't think it was just a religion thing that does not equate I think woman are treated well in the ME.

[glockmail]

Where the hell are you getting that. Just read my first post. i said they were far behind on the subject of womans rights. I just did not condemn the religion (Islam) for being the sole cause seeing as most religions even christianity if you read the texts preach like things on womans issues. It's the tribal nature, historic culture, relgious fantaticism, and poverty of those problem in such countries. not the religion alone.

Sometime I really wonder if you all read what I actually write before jumping to the conclusions.

1. Women are revered in Christianity. Ever hear of Mary, mother of Jesus?
2. Tribal nature has nothing to do with womans issues. There are tribes literally throughout the world that don’t have the issues that Islam does.
3. Historic culture? That’s liberal-speak; means nothing.
4. Religious fanaticism? See item 1 above.
5. Poverty? Saudia Arabia is one of the wealthiest on earth, and one of the worst with regard to treatment of women.
Why not face the truth: Islam is the problem. It’s friggin’ obvioius.

[LiberalNation]

The vast mahority of Saudi citizens are not wealthy though. Look at christian african countries, woman aren't treated very well there either. (poverty)
Tribal nature does have something to do with it because if you look at old tribal custom in nearly all society woman are treated as second class citizen to the male dominated to society. Are own country treated woman like crap just over 50 years ago. We were not an Islamic country.

Woman are also revered in Islam by the way as far as I know. No I'm not gona look up Koramic versus for ya'll to prove it. Have plenty of more interesting stuff to do tonight.

[MtnBiker]

Are own country treated woman like crap just over 50 years ago.

In the 1950s, how exactly?

[LiberalNation]

80 years then. Still even in the 50's they were barred from many profession by society even if not legally. We still have a ways to go today. Woman still on average make less than men and hold far fewer political seats than men considering how much of the population we make up.

[Nienna]

80 years then. Still even in the 50's they were barred from many profession by society even if not legally. We still have a ways to go today. Woman still on average make less than men and hold far fewer political seats than men considering how much of the population we make up.

Because many women choose to raise families instead of pursuing careers.

[LiberalNation]

Maybe so but that does not account for the wage discrepancies. Sexism exist and is still a problem today.

[Dilloduck]

Maybe so but that does not account for the wage discrepancies. Sexism exist and is still a problem today.

Agreed--men don't make nearly enough for what they do ! :laugh2:

[glockmail]

The vast mahority of Saudi citizens are not wealthy though. Look at christian african countries, woman aren't treated very well there either. (poverty)
Tribal nature does have something to do with it because if you look at old tribal custom in nearly all society woman are treated as second class citizen to the male dominated to society. Are own country treated woman like crap just over 50 years ago. We were not an Islamic country.

Woman are also revered in Islam by the way as far as I know. No I'm not gona look up Koramic versus for ya'll to prove it. Have plenty of more interesting stuff to do tonight.

It would really help if you used the damn quote button as I don't always catch that you are responding to me.

1. The rich saudis are the worst offenders. Poverty has NOTHING to do with it.
2. All tribes are different. gain- no correlation.
3. None of the women in my familiy going back 100 years would agree with that statment.
4. I've already posted this on the koran: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html You chose to ignore it then, and you will again, because you don't want to see the facts about Islam. For you, the US is always the problem. :slap:

[LiberalNation]

No the US is not always the problem. We're not always the solution either. In time the ME will modernize inch by inch because of brave woman will to make a stand not American slamming them.

Alot of the rules in your link are also in the OT of the bible so do Jews follow them as well.

and on the same website, the bible on women. Just as bad IMO.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html

[LiberalNation]

Also came across this from your link.

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/worth-of-woman-bible-vs-quran.html

25 August 2006
The worth of a woman: the Bible vs. the Quran

Don't you love it when the Bible and the Quran agree (more or less) on something? I do. Because whenever they do, you can be pretty sure they're both wrong.

Take the worth of a woman, for example. They go at it from slightly different angles, but come up with the same answer. A woman is worth about half as much as a man.

Here's what the Bible has to say.

And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver.... And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels.
And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels.

And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.

And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels. -- Leviticus 27:3-7

So, depending on their age, females are worth 1/2 to 2/3 as much as males.

But what does the Quran say?

Well it doesn't come right out, like the Good Book does, and place a monetary value on human life, male and female. But it does compare the value of men and women from a financial point of view.

Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. -- Quran 4:11
... unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females. -- Quran 4:176

And the Quran tells us just how much we should trust a woman's testimony: it's worth half that of a man's.

And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women. -- Quran 2:282
So praised be Jesus and Muhammed (peanut butter and jelly be upon them)! The Bible and the Quran agree: a woman is worth half as much as a man.

[gabosaurus]

It's a different culture and society. Some countries do not allow dissent.
If these things happen in Iran, we scream bloody murder. If these things happen in China, we given them favored nation status.

[glockmail]

Also came across this from your link.

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/worth-of-woman-bible-vs-quran.html

25 August 2006
The worth of a woman: the Bible vs. the Quran

Don't you love it when the Bible and the Quran agree (more or less) on something? I do. Because whenever they do, you can be pretty sure they're both wrong.

Take the worth of a woman, for example. They go at it from slightly different angles, but come up with the same answer. A woman is worth about half as much as a man.

Here's what the Bible has to say.

And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver.... And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels.
And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels.

And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.

And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels. -- Leviticus 27:3-7

So, depending on their age, females are worth 1/2 to 2/3 as much as males.

But what does the Quran say?

Well it doesn't come right out, like the Good Book does, and place a monetary value on human life, male and female. But it does compare the value of men and women from a financial point of view.

Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. -- Quran 4:11
... unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females. -- Quran 4:176

And the Quran tells us just how much we should trust a woman's testimony: it's worth half that of a man's.

And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women. -- Quran 2:282
So praised be Jesus and Muhammed (peanut butter and jelly be upon them)! The Bible and the Quran agree: a woman is worth half as much as a man.


Your blogger conveniently forgot the introductory sentence of Leviticus 27: The LORD said to Moses,
"Speak to the Israelites and tell them: When anyone fulfills a vow of offering one or more persons to the LORD, who are to be ransomed at a fixed sum of money,…” which sets the price for peace offerings to the Lord. Since most money was earned by muscle labor, men could do more work, and therefore should earn more money. It would be unfair to ask women or children for an equal amount, would it not? So it appears the blogger has lied to you, or at best, intentionally misled you.

[glockmail]

It's a different culture and society. Some countries do not allow dissent.
If these things happen in Iran, we scream bloody murder. If these things happen in China, we given them favored nation status. China is not threatening to annihilate our ally.

[Nienna]

Maybe so but that does not account for the wage discrepancies. Sexism exist and is still a problem today.

I saw a report that showed how women taking time off to raise families accounted very nicely for the wage discrepancies. Women who were in the workforce on a constant basis made the same as men, and advanced as well as men.

I live in rural Ohio... I KNOW sexism exists, especially amongst farmers & country boys. People will always find reasons to look down on others. However the whole "sexism in the workplace" thing is SO 1970s. I don't think the issue is pervasive any more.

[Dilloduck]

I saw a report that showed how women taking time off to raise families accounted very nicely for the wage discrepancies. Women who were in the workforce on a constant basis made the same as men, and advanced as well as men.

I live in rural Ohio... I KNOW sexism exists, especially amongst farmers & country boys. People will always find reasons to look down on others. However the whole "sexism in the workplace" thing is SO 1970s. I don't think the issue is pervasive any more.

Female supervisors have harassed male employees who would not respond to thier sexual advances. It goes both ways.

[Nienna]

No the US is not always the problem. We're not always the solution either. In time the ME will modernize inch by inch because of brave woman will to make a stand not American slamming them.

Alot of the rules in your link are also in the OT of the bible so do Jews follow them as well.

and on the same website, the bible on women. Just as bad IMO.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html


For both the Bible, and the Koran, those verses are taken out of context. I can't speak for the koran, but many of the verses cited from the Bible actually RAISE the value of women if taken in context. This is why I was wondering if anyone had knowledge enough of the Koran to explain the verses IN CONTEXT.

In the absence of someone who can do this, all we can do is look at the manifestation of the religions within their cultures. Islam is FAR harsher on women IN PRACTICE than Christianity. Many of the major reform movements in our culture were started by Christians. Where are all the Islamic hospitals & orphanages? Where are the Islamic soup kitchens? The Islamic pregnancy resource centers? Who was at the forefront of the women's suffrage movement? Christians. The anti-slavery movement? The literacy movement? Christians--- citing chapter & verse about their reasons for opposing these injustices.

Can Islamic women point out places in the Koran that support their desire for equal treatment? Is there a verse like THIS in the Koran: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

...or like this: "So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them." (Genesis 1:27)

[Nienna]

Female supervisors have harassed male employees who would not respond to thier sexual advances. It goes both ways.

Agreed. I heard just yesterday of a woman who was fired for sexual harassment. Whoever has the power is the one who can abuse it.

[Nienna]

# God fashions a woman out of one of Adam's ribs. This was necessary since Adam couldn't find a "help meet" in any of the animals that God made for him. 2:20-22
Because God created the man first, and the man couldn't find an ANIMAL that was EQUAL to a human being, and thus capable of being his COMPANION. God fashioned Eve out of Adam's RIB, not a foot bone. She belongs at his SIDE, not UNDER him.


# Adam blames Eve and Eve blames the serpent. 3:12-13 Yeah, pass-the-buck. It's human nature. The Bible was relating an event, NOT accusing Eve of being of lesser value.


# God punishes Eve, and all women after her, with the pains of childbirth and subjection to men. 3:16
Where to even START on this one. We had a whole thread on this at USMB! Yep, Eve had to suffer pain in childbirth. Adam had to work the fields in hard labor to provide for himself, AND his family. The responsibility for their survival was on HIS shoulders. Since he had the responsibility, he had the authority that went with it. And so his WIFE was left longing for the old days when companionship was his whole focus. NOTE: The WIFE was placed under the HUSBAND. This is the chain of command WITHIN THE FAMILY UNIT. I have yet to see anywhere in the Bible that says ALL WOMEN are subject to ALL MEN.


# Adam is also punished, although less severely. He now will have to work for a living because he "hearkened unto the voice" of his wife. 3:17 Less severe punishment? That's debatable. To some, temporary childbirth pains may seem less of a punishment than daily labor in the fields. Also, do you think Adam enjoyed his new responsibilities? Don't you think he would rather have gone back to meandering through the Garden, holding hands with his wife? The break in the relationship hurt Adam, as well as Eve. Look how happy he was when God gave him a companion. He didn't get to spend that time with her any more.


# Lamech is the first of a long line of biblical men with more than one wife. It seems that God approves of such marriages. 4:19, 23
Not everything related in the Bible is something God approves of. In many cases, especially in the OT, God is showing us how NOT to act.


# Finally, sometime in the next 800 years, Adam begat some daughters. These nameless ones are the first (and nearly the last) girls to be born in the Bible. 5:4
"After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other SONS AND daughters." The daughters were not the only nameless ones.


# "The male and his female ..." Notice that in the Bible female animals are the property of male animals, as women are the property of men. 7:2 "Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its MATE..." If I say to you, "John is my husband," does that mean John is my property? No, I am describing the relationship, not ascribing OWNERSHIP. And as for the stretch from animals to humans...

I can't even read any more of this trash. Totally taken out of context and skewed. I still have the question about whether this site treats the Koran in the same manner.

[LiberalNation]

Hey it was from his link not mine. That's why I think it is reasonble to believe that site also took the Islamic text out of context. Which was kind of my point.

[glockmail]

Hey it was from his link not mine. That's why I think it is reasonble to believe that site also took the Islamic text out of context. Which was kind of my point.

I have used that site for over a year now. It is by an atheist. The negative references to the Bible are easy to dispute, but not so with many from the Koran. I suggest that you go through some of the koran issues yourself, or at the very least, hit me with one that you have a problem with, because a blanket statement like yours above proves your ignorance.

[Gaffer]

Where the hell are you getting that. Just read my first post. i said they were far behind on the subject of womans rights. I just did not condemn the religion (Islam) for being the sole cause seeing as most religions even christianity if you read the texts preach like things on womans issues. It's the tribal nature, historic culture, relgious fantaticism, and poverty of those problem in such countries. not the religion alone.

Sometime I really wonder if you all read what I actually write before jumping to the conclusions.

All the things you listed are caused by islam.

[LiberalNation]

Islam is part but not the only reason. Underdevolpment of countries like Afghanistan and constant fighting there and in Africa all play a part.

[LiberalNation]

I have used that site for over a year now. It is by an atheist. The negative references to the Bible are easy to dispute, but not so with many from the Koran. I suggest that you go through some of the koran issues yourself, or at the very least, hit me with one that you have a problem with, because a blanket statement like yours above proves your ignorance.

There are pages and pages of bible statments against woman on that site. You better start refuting because many were pretty damning.

[Nienna]

There are pages and pages of bible statments against woman on that site. You better start refuting because many were pretty damning.

Which ones do you consider to be the most damning?

[LiberalNation]

I'll post them soon as I'm out of school. Be a few hours.

[Nienna]

I'll post them soon as I'm out of school. Be a few hours.

Okay. :)

[LiberalNation]

Schools actually just ended but I'm in the library waiting for my math teacher because I have to redo a test I got a 69 on yesterday.

[Nienna]

Schools actually just ended but I'm in the library waiting for my math teacher because I have to redo a test I got a 69 on yesterday.

LOL! Whenever you get time, then. Thanks for being so honest. :)

[LiberalNation]

Here’s some that don’t seem much worse than the ones in the Koran to me. left out the nurning witches and that stuff. The OT is a lot worse than the NT seems like.

The head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man.--11:3

For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.--11:7 (so should she cover her head or what)

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak.... And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home. -- 14:34-35

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.--2:11-12

To commemorate the divine massacre of the Egyptian children, Moses instructs the Israelites to "sacrifice to the Lord all that openeth the matrix" -- all the males, that is. God has no use for dead, burnt female bodies. 13:2, 13:12-15

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, ... nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's." In the Bible, women are the property of men; they are his possessions -- like an ox or an ass. 20:17

God explains how to go about selling your daughter -- and what to do if she fails to please her new master. 21:7

"In sin did my mother conceive me." God considers both women and sex to be sinful. 51:5

Jesus says that divorce is permissible when the wife is guilty of fornication. But what if the husband is unfaithful? Jesus doesn't seem to care about that. 5:32, 19:9

In the last days God will make things especially rough on pregnant women. 13:17

Males are holy to God, not females. 2:23

Paul explains that "the natural use" of women is to act as sexual objects for the pleasure of men. 1:27

Paul says "the head of the woman is the man," meaning that the women are to be subordinate to men. 11:3

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." 2:11-12

Jesus will "cast her [Jezebel] into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her." 2:22

Only 144,000 celibate men will be saved. (Those who were not "defiled with women.") 14:1-4

[Nienna]

Okay... I may not be able to do all these at once, but I'll start... You didn't post the books, so it may take me awhile to find these...



Here’s some that don’t seem much worse than the ones in the Koran to me. left out the nurning witches and that stuff. The OT is a lot worse than the NT seems like.

The head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man.--11:3
Okay, this is in 1Corinthans.
"But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ."(v. 3)
The man is only the head of his wife, not ALL women. This line of authority is central to Christian doctrine. God the Father, then Jesus, then man, then wife, then children. There is a lot of symbolism within this structure, because the Church (all Christians) is the Bride of Christ. However, men in general are equal in value to women in general.



For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.--11:7 (so should she cover her head or what)
And this is degrading to women HOW? A woman is a man's gift and his glory. Sounds pretty valuable to me.

But this goes hand-in-hand with the above passage; actually it is a part of the same passage. It is talking about the chain of authority within a family, being the reasoning for the woman's covering her head. If you continue on in this passage, it says: "However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God." (v. 11-12)


Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak.... And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home. -- 14:34-35
Again-- cherry-picking. This is a part of the same letter, and should be read all together. They are specifically talking about order in the worship services. This is actually RAISING women in equality. Women were not before allowed to learn and sit in the same services as the men. They were not educated. So, they were disrupting the services to ask questions. Paul was telling these women to ask questions of their husbands at home (because their husbands had been allowed to study scripture) so the services could progress.

If women were to ALWAYS be silent, then how is the previous passage to be explained? "But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved." (11 v. 5)

How could she prophesy SILENTLY?

I gotta go, but I will try to do more later. :)

[glockmail]

There are pages and pages of bible statments against woman on that site. You better start refuting because many were pretty damning. Pick one of each: Bible and Koran.

[glockmail]

Here’s some that don’t seem much worse than the ones in the Koran to me. left out the nurning witches and that stuff. The OT is a lot worse than the NT seems like..... The NT is the important one. Christ elevated women to the highest that they have ever been.

[Nienna]

The NT is the important one. Christ elevated women to the highest that they have ever been.

The OT is important, too. Christ and Christians worked to RESTORE women to the position that God originally intended for them in the Garden. :)

[glockmail]

The OT is important, too. Christ and Christians worked to RESTORE women to the position that God originally intended for them in the Garden. :) Excellent point. I stand corrected.:salute:

[Nienna]

Excellent point. I stand corrected.:salute:

You are so AWESOME! Thank you for standing to be corrected...by a WOMAN! lol! :D

[gabosaurus]

The Koran can not be properly interpreted by those who have not studied it. That is why I never try to read it. A lot of the raw content has to be taken in the proper context.
Unless, of course, you are merely quoting it as a means to cause sh*t.

[CSM]

The Koran can not be properly interpreted by those who have not studied it. That is why I never try to read it. A lot of the raw content has to be taken in the proper context.
Unless, of course, you are merely quoting it as a means to cause sh*t.

Aw cmon...that's not why you dont try to read the Koran! You don't read it because you are afraid of what is in it!

[glockmail]

You are so AWESOME! Thank you for standing to be corrected...by a WOMAN! lol! :D God I love women.

[glockmail]

The Koran can not be properly interpreted by those who have not studied it. That is why I never try to read it. A lot of the raw content has to be taken in the proper context.
Unless, of course, you are merely quoting it as a means to cause sh*t.

I've studied it as much as I've studied the Bible. It's not very difficult to "interpret" the Koran. Anyone with an IQ past 100 can do so.

[Nienna]

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.--2:11-12
Found this one in 1Timothy. This was a letter written by Paul to his young helper, Timothy. Paul left Timothy in Ephesus to continue teaching the Church there when Paul moved on to Macedonia. This was an instruction specific to the Ephesian Church. It's unclear why these women were told to keep quiet, but it IS clear that they were being offered an amazing new opportunity--- the chance to learn, right along-side the men! It is believed that the Ephesian women, who had never been allowed to learn before, were susceptible to false teachings, and so needed to listen to the better-educated men before trying to spread the Gospel.

The reason we know that this instruction is specific to the Ephesian church is that in other places, Paul specifically COMMENDS women for their teaching. Even Timothy, to whom this letter was written, was taught by his mother (Eunice) and his grandmother (Lois) (2Timothy 1:5). Priscilla, with her husband Aquila, taught the great speaker Apollos (Acts 18:26). Anna was a prophetess, present when Jesus was born, who was one of the first people in the world to proclaim His identity. Even in the OT, Deborah was the Judge of Israel, "leading Israel at that time" (Judges 4:4).

So, you can see that this verse is not meant to be universally applied to ALL women. And throughout the Bible, women have been placed in positions of teaching and authority.


To commemorate the divine massacre of the Egyptian children, Moses instructs the Israelites to "sacrifice to the Lord all that openeth the matrix" -- all the males, that is. God has no use for dead, burnt female bodies. 13:2, 13:12-15
From Exodus.

First of all, God did not command the Israelites to BURN anybody. The actual verse--even in the King James version-- reads "set apart unto the Lord," not "sacrifice." Animals were sacrificed and burnt, but not humans. To consecrate means to set apart for service, possibly making them Nazarites (people who took specific religious vows). And this command was given only for firstborn males. But does that mean that God "has no use" for females? I could argue that because God HAD use for females (in childbearing), this is why He did not want them sacrificed or dedicated (which might include chastity).


"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, ... nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's." In the Bible, women are the property of men; they are his possessions -- like an ox or an ass. 20:17
Also from Exodus, one of the Ten Commandments.

This verse is not listing a man's property; it is instructing people not to envy or to lust for something that is not theirs. Again, if I call John "my husband," does that mean I OWN John? No, I "own" the RELATIONSHIP, not the PERSON. In the Bible, a man does have authority over his wife and servants, but that does not diminish their worth in God's eyes, it does not define them as property, only assigns them certain duties.

More later.... :)

[Hobbit]

LiberalNation, I don't know where you got that list of verses, but you list no books of the Bible, just chapter and verse. There are 66 books, and while I do recognize some of them, I'd like a little help looking them up, as some of them are edited or altered and all of them have been taken out of context. In a book as massive and as old as the Bible, it's really easy to take stuff out of context and claim it says something it doesn't. Give me enough time, and I could find a way to justify just about anything by taking Biblical quotes out of context and cleverly editing them.

The entire list fails to mention the long list of strong women in the Bible, as well as the verses governing the treatment of women. Husbands are instructed to "love your wives as I have loved the church."

[Nienna]

God explains how to go about selling your daughter -- and what to do if she fails to please her new master. 21:7
Exodus, also. This rule was given to PROTECT the woman. "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money. (Exodus 21:7-11) These rules were given to protect women from men who would use them and cast them out, leaving them with no way of providing for themselves. If she didn't please the new master, he couldn't just turn her out, he had to allow her family to "redeem" her. He was not allowed to sell her away to foreign countries. If he took her for himself, he had to provide for her. If he gave her to his son, he had to treat her as a daughter, not just a slave.

These things are a far cry from the ideal relationship described in the Garden of Eden. These rules were given as a reaction because men refused to treat women, and each other, the way God intended.


"In sin did my mother conceive me." God considers both women and sex to be sinful. 51:5
Absolutely untrue. This is from Psalms. "Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness;
According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
And cleanse me from my sin.
For I know my transgressions,
And my sin is ever before me.
Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight,
So that You are justified when You speak
And blameless when You judge.
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me."

King David wrote this song after he committed adultery with Bathsheba. It's clear he was talking about HIS sin, not his mother's. But, just to show it even further..."God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.' "

Women were not considered to be sinful in the beginning; they were created in the image of God, just like men. Neither was sex sinful, but a blessing and a divine command.

[LiberalNation]

I posted the koran page from this site on another board I post on along with the christian page. A guy that studied the Koran is refuting some of this sites Koran versus, saying they were taken out of context. I'll post some of it when I get home.

[Nienna]

I posted the koran page from this site on another board I post on along with the christian page. A guy that studied the Koran is refuting some of this sites Koran versus, saying they were taken out of context. I'll post some of it when I get home.

That would be great info! Thanks!

[glockmail]

I posted the koran page from this site on another board I post on along with the christian page. A guy that studied the Koran is refuting some of this sites Koran versus, saying they were taken out of context. I'll post some of it when I get home. I'm looking forward to it. I have yet to have a discussion with a so-called koran expert that didn't end in him threatening me.

[LiberalNation]

Huh.

The fact that this site has been so strongly refuted it's bible info about should clue you in that it would be the same when quoting text from the Koran. Your source is way biased.

[glockmail]

Huh.

The fact that this site has been so strongly refuted it's bible info about should clue you in that it would be the same when quoting text from the Koran. Your source is way biased. My "source" is the Koran. :slap:

[LiberalNation]

Interesting link.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=114839

2.222 doesn’t say menstruation is a sickness, it says its a discomfort. So the other site got that wrong.

Women are feeble and are unable to devise a plan. 4:98
doesn’t say this at all either. Totally taken out of context.

[Nienna]

Jesus says that divorce is permissible when the wife is guilty of fornication. But what if the husband is unfaithful? Jesus doesn't seem to care about that. 5:32, 19:9
Jesus cared about that very much. These verses are from the Gospel of Matthew. Once again, if you read the whole passage, you will see that this rule about divorce comes on the heels of a passage condemning men who commit adultery, or who even LOOK at a woman lustfully. When we read more of the passage in chapter 19, you can see how this is taken completely out of context and turned around to mean the exact OPPOSITE of what the Bible says.

"Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"

"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"

Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Giving a woman a decree of divorce was a PROTECTION for the woman. Otherwise, her husband could turn her out of the house for any reason, with no way of making a living. But, ANY divorce still wasn't what God intended.


In the last days God will make things especially rough on pregnant women. 13:17
From the Gospel of Mark. This is in a passage which describes many horrible things, betrayal, the sun being darkened. The strain on pregnant women and nursing mothers is just one of the list. It is probably a comment on the strain of trying to manage a baby while fleeing for their lives, since it is in the middle of verses warning them to flee. It is not an especial judgment on women.


Males are holy to God, not females. 2:23 This is in Luke, and it is actually quoting the passage we talked about before in Exodus 13, so please reference the note on that.


Paul explains that "the natural use" of women is to act as sexual objects for the pleasure of men. 1:27
From Romans. Paul is describing people who turn away from God's way and His wisdom, and enumerating some of the acts they commit. The "UNnatural" use referenced here is homosexual acts, and it is also applied to men, immediately following:

"They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." (Romans 1:25-28)


Paul says "the head of the woman is the man," meaning that the women are to be subordinate to men.
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." 2:11-1211:3 1Corinthians and Timothy... I already addressed these.


Jesus will "cast her [Jezebel] into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her." 2:22 Revelation. He is either speaking about a specific woman in the Thyatiran Church or using this as a symbol for all those who promote pagan worship. If it IS a specific woman, well, adultery is wrong... both for women AND men. Those committing adultery with her are also cast into a bed.


Only 144,000 celibate men will be saved. (Those who were not "defiled with women.") 14:1-4 Also from Revelation. It doesn't say ONLY 144,000 would go to Heaven, but at that point in John's vision, he saw these who had been consecrated to God standing with the Lamb. If they were consecrated to God, they possibly did not marry. Thus, the sexual act would be defilement, since it was outside of marriage. Sex WITHIN MARRIAGE is a gift and a blessing.