Religion with power

[avatar4321]

The Apostles Paul wrote to Timothy about the circumstances of the last days:


1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. (2 Timothy 3:1-7)

I think you could probably have a discussion on just about any aspect of these verses and come up with some good feedback and thoughts. But I was thinking a little bit about verse five "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof".

I was hoping to get a discussion on it started. What do you think Paul meant by this verse? What kind of power is He talking about? And while you don't have to share Id like you to think about whether You see this power in your Church and in your Life.

Ive been thinking about it a little and I am not sure I know what the point of religion if there is no power within it. To me religion is supposed to be more than just some social club where you meet once a week and occasionally do service projects to help people. It's where you are supposed to learn how to live in such a way that you can use the power of God in your own life to bless others. It's where we can seek the power of God to change our lives for the better. It's how God makes bad men good and good men better.

So any thoughts?

[crin63]

I like this but its to late for me to start on it. I will try and post tomorrow when I'm not so tired but you make some very interesting points.

I'll pass on a couple thoughts from the venerable old preacher, John Gill. In bold are my remarks.

2Ti 3:5 - Having a form of godliness,.... Either a mere external show of religion, pretending great piety and holiness, being outwardly righteous before men, having the mask and visor of godliness. This would be the typical evangelical in the United States.

but denying the power thereof; though in words they profess religion and godliness, the fear of God, and the pure worship of him, yet in works they deny all. The typical evangelical believes he is saved in his sins not from his sins. That all he has to do is say some magic juju words and everything is ok between himself and God.

[5stringJeff]

The Apostles Paul wrote to Timothy about the circumstances of the last days:



I think you could probably have a discussion on just about any aspect of these verses and come up with some good feedback and thoughts. But I was thinking a little bit about verse five "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof".

I was hoping to get a discussion on it started. What do you think Paul meant by this verse? What kind of power is He talking about? And while you don't have to share Id like you to think about whether You see this power in your Church and in your Life.

Ive been thinking about it a little and I am not sure I know what the point of religion if there is no power within it. To me religion is supposed to be more than just some social club where you meet once a week and occasionally do service projects to help people. It's where you are supposed to learn how to live in such a way that you can use the power of God in your own life to bless others. It's where we can seek the power of God to change our lives for the better. It's how God makes bad men good and good men better.

So any thoughts?

I would think that the people Paul describes are those who want the peace and joy that Christianity offers without the commitment to holiness and obedience. Paul describes people who pretend to "have religion," yet do not turn from a sinful lifestyle. The Episcopal Church, with its acceptance of homosexuality as a lifestyle (or homosexual acts as not sinful) immediately comes to mind.

[5stringJeff]

I like this but its to late for me to start on it. I will try and post tomorrow when I'm not so tired but you make some very interesting points.

I'll pass on a couple thoughts from the venerable old preacher, John Gill. In bold are my remarks.

2Ti 3:5 - Having a form of godliness,.... Either a mere external show of religion, pretending great piety and holiness, being outwardly righteous before men, having the mask and visor of godliness. This would be the typical evangelical in the United States.

but denying the power thereof; though in words they profess religion and godliness, the fear of God, and the pure worship of him, yet in works they deny all. The typical evangelical believes he is saved in his sins not from his sins. That all he has to do is say some magic juju words and everything is ok between himself and God.

As one who considers himself an evangelical, I'd be interested to know what your definition of a "typical evangelical" is.

[crin63]

I would think that the people Paul describes are those who want the peace and joy that Christianity offers without the commitment to holiness and obedience. Paul describes people who pretend to "have religion," yet do not turn from a sinful lifestyle. The Episcopal Church, with its acceptance of homosexuality as a lifestyle (or homosexual acts as not sinful) immediately comes to mind.


As one who considers himself an evangelical, I'd be interested to know what your definition of a "typical evangelical" is.

Your first description is generally how I would describe typical evangelicals as well as the way that John Gill addresses the letter to Timothy that I posted.

I used the word to typical as a generality. I didn't say all. There are obvious exceptions.

Most, in fact all of the evangelicals I have been around believe that its ok for them to be fornicators, drunkards, thieves, liars and etc. but no one should be a homosexual. I think that is also the reason many that are opposed to Christianity hold their view. It's because of the wholesale hypocrisy coming out of Christendom.

I would submit that all sexual sin is sin. All sex outside the bounds of marriage between a man and a woman is fornication (sin) that includes adultery. All drunkeness is sinful. All theft is sinful and all lies are sinful. That you don't just run around frequently committing these sins if you are genuinely born again. Thats not to say that any Christian will ever be perfect while on this earth either. We are after all sinful by nature.

I'm really tired and I hope that made sense as well as answer your question.

[5stringJeff]

Your first description is generally how I would describe typical evangelicals as well as the way that John Gill addresses the letter to Timothy that I posted.

I used the word to typical as a generality. I didn't say all. There are obvious exceptions.

Most, in fact all of the evangelicals I have been around believe that its ok for them to be fornicators, drunkards, thieves, liars and etc. but no one should be a homosexual. I think that is also the reason many that are opposed to Christianity hold their view. It's because of the wholesale hypocrisy coming out of Christendom.

I would submit that all sexual sin is sin. All sex outside the bounds of marriage between a man and a woman is fornication (sin) that includes adultery. All drunkeness is sinful. All theft is sinful and all lies are sinful. That you don't just run around frequently committing these sins if you are genuinely born again. Thats not to say that any Christian will ever be perfect while on this earth either. We are after all sinful by nature.

I'm really tired and I hope that made sense as well as answer your question.

I understand what you're saying. It's just that I've never met an evangelical who said that it was OK to be drunk, or lie, or steal. In fact, every evangelical I've ever known would agree that all sex outside of marriage is sinful, along with drunkenness, theft, and lying. Out of curiosity, where are you meeting evangelicals who think otherwise?

[crin63]

Out of curiosity, where are you meeting evangelicals who think otherwise?

Where else, Southern California and other forum boards I was on years ago.

[glockmail]

The Apostles Paul wrote to Timothy about the circumstances of the last days:....
So any thoughts?

To me this sounds like a description of the last days of a great civilization. It could descibe Rome before its fall, or the US very soon.

[crin63]

To me this sounds like a description of the last days of a great civilization. It could descibe Rome before its fall, or the US very soon.

Big surprise but I agree wholeheartedly. We are in a post Christian era that resembles first century Rome. Its a disgrace what this country is becoming.

[glockmail]

Big surprise but I agree wholeheartedly. We are in a post Christian era that resembles first century Rome. Its a disgrace what this country is becoming.
Why would I be surprised? You seem like a level-headed chap.

[Abbey Marie]

I understand what you're saying. It's just that I've never met an evangelical who said that it was OK to be drunk, or lie, or steal. In fact, every evangelical I've ever known would agree that all sex outside of marriage is sinful, along with drunkenness, theft, and lying. Out of curiosity, where are you meeting evangelicals who think otherwise?

Crin, as a member of various evangelical churches for decades, my experience has been the same as Jeff's. It's hard for me to fathom that you have met so many who are such unrepentant sinners.

[PostmodernProphet]

The typical evangelical believes he is saved in his sins not from his sins. That all he has to do is say some magic juju words and everything is ok between himself and God.

negative spin aside, there is basic truth in what you say....the act of salvation doesn't mean that somehow we are never going to sin again....everyone sins, every day....so yes, we are saved "in our sins"....

and it is true that despite this, we are "okay with God", though it is the result of his forgiveness and our belief in him rather than some magic juju words.....

[avatar4321]

Big surprise but I agree wholeheartedly. We are in a post Christian era that resembles first century Rome. Its a disgrace what this country is becoming.

We may see darkness in our nation. But no matter how dark the night becomes there will always be daylight.

However, I have been contemplating the future. and I am sad to say I think I will see alot of good destroyed before my days are over.

[5stringJeff]

Where else, Southern California and other forum boards I was on years ago.

Interesting. I lived in CA for a year when I was in preschool. Never made it back there.

[5stringJeff]

negative spin aside, there is basic truth in what you say....the act of salvation doesn't mean that somehow we are never going to sin again....everyone sins, every day....so yes, we are saved "in our sins"....

and it is true that despite this, we are "okay with God", though it is the result of his forgiveness and our belief in him rather than some magic juju words.....

I think the point is that some Christians do not believe that there is any need to attempt to change one's lifestyle, or to strive after holiness and obedient living. That, obviously, runs contrary to Scripture.

[ranger]

I'm not very big into organized religions, once man gets a hold of something it becomes perverted for their own use. I do believe that the scriptures point towards the last days, but I think the timing is fluid, based upon us and our actions.

[crin63]

I have seen people living together that were unmarried (obvious sex sin going on there). Both claiming to be Christians, accepted as members of a Southern Baptist Church, the woman teaching the teen girls about how to perform certain sexual favors on their boyfriends while at church, considerable amount of alcohol consumption going on and the pastor reportedly aware of all this along with other members of the church. No one seeing a problem with that at their church.

I have talked to people from the church down the street from my church that have no problem with the kids in their church doing whatever types of drugs they want too while they are at church.

I have seen a youth pastor have his girlfriend staying the night at his house.

Tweekers (Meth Addicts) who think themselves Christians.

During the Los Angeles riots a friend of mine who is a former UCLA math professor to a poll of the people who were looting stuff from the stores and carrying it home. He interviewed a couple hundred people as they walked by. His only criteria for choosing who to interview was that they were carrying stolen merchandise. 76% claimed to be born again Christians.

Another church having gambling and cocktail night to raise money for a building project.

If I thought about it I could go on and on.

[PostmodernProphet]

your anecdotes sound highly unusual to me....forgive me for being suspicious of their truth.....

[midcan5]

The only people I know who exhibit a genuine Christianity (I shouldn't say 'only' but I will from experience.) are the poor or those who struggle in life. It may be that once we attain security, life changes in a way that moves people away from a strong sense of the divine. I am thinking of a woman on 60 Minutes talking about her lack of funds for eye care. Her comment was, 'God will provide.' Many others say the same things and poor nations seem more genuinely religious while America is full of fluff. Our religion is a pretentious showing.



"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried." Gilbert K. Chesterton

[glockmail]

I have seen people living together that were unmarried (obvious sex sin going on there). Both claiming to be Christians, accepted as members of a Southern Baptist Church, the woman teaching the teen girls about how to perform certain sexual favors on their boyfriends while at church, considerable amount of alcohol consumption going on and the pastor reportedly aware of all this along with other members of the church. No one seeing a problem with that at their church.

I have talked to people from the church down the street from my church that have no problem with the kids in their church doing whatever types of drugs they want too while they are at church.

I have seen a youth pastor have his girlfriend staying the night at his house.

Tweekers (Meth Addicts) who think themselves Christians.

During the Los Angeles riots a friend of mine who is a former UCLA math professor to a poll of the people who were looting stuff from the stores and carrying it home. He interviewed a couple hundred people as they walked by. His only criteria for choosing who to interview was that they were carrying stolen merchandise. 76% claimed to be born again Christians.

Another church having gambling and cocktail night to raise money for a building project.

If I thought about it I could go on and on.

At my Catholic church we do the Bingo and Beer thing annually to raise money for community projects and students of the Clergy. I don't see that as a sinful activity whatsoever. With regards to the rest- damn!

[avatar4321]

The only people I know who exhibit a genuine Christianity (I shouldn't say 'only' but I will from experience.) are the poor or those who struggle in life. It may be that once we attain security, life changes in a way that moves people away from a strong sense of the divine. I am thinking of a woman on 60 Minutes talking about her lack of funds for eye care. Her comment was, 'God will provide.' Many others say the same things and poor nations seem more genuinely religious while America is full of fluff. Our religion is a pretentious showing.



"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried." Gilbert K. Chesterton

everyone struggles. that doesnt mean they exhibit geniune Christianity.

[Abbey Marie]

I think the point is that some Christians do not believe that there is any need to attempt to change one's lifestyle, or to strive after holiness and obedient living. That, obviously, runs contrary to Scripture.

Sounds like the effects of society's increasingly secular humanist philosophies. Everyone eventually needs to choose how to live, even nominal Christians.

[5stringJeff]

Our religion is a pretentious showing.

I doubt you could accurately summarize the faith of all Americans thusly.

[crin63]

your anecdotes sound highly unusual to me....forgive me for being suspicious of their truth.....

Obviously you don't know me. It's up to you whether or not to believe me.

I will even break it down for you as to who they were.


I have seen people living together that were unmarried (obvious sex sin going on there). Both claiming to be Christians, accepted as members of a Southern Baptist Church, the woman teaching the teen girls about how to perform certain sexual favors on their boyfriends while at church, considerable amount of alcohol consumption going on and the pastor reportedly aware of all this along with other members of the church. No one seeing a problem with that at their church.

This was my best friend and his ex-wife.


I have talked to people from the church down the street from my church that have no problem with the kids in their church doing whatever types of drugs they want too while they are at church.

I was waiting in line to vote against Clinton during the 1996 general election talking to these people.



I have seen a youth pastor have his girlfriend staying the night at his house.

I was about 15 and he was my youth pastor and I saw her there.



Tweekers (Meth Addicts) who think themselves Christians.

This was 2 co-workers that I worked with one of them in 1996 and the other in 1998. Both were Union Ironworkers.


During the Los Angeles riots a friend of mine who is a former UCLA math professor to a poll of the people who were looting stuff from the stores and carrying it home. He interviewed a couple hundred people as they walked by. His only criteria for choosing who to interview was that they were carrying stolen merchandise. 76% claimed to be born again Christians.

This one is pretty self explanatory. The guy is a statistician for a real estate company now.


Another church having gambling and cocktail night to raise money for a building project.

This was another co-worker and friend of my dads. He was actually part of the reason my dad stayed away from church for many years. My dad just couldn't understand how they could have the blackjack tables, slots and cocktails. I don't know that gambling is specifically addressed in The Bible but it had the appearance of evil to my dad. Thats wherein the problem lies with gambling in my opinion. Christians are to avoid the appearance of evil.

I have not verified this personally but it comes from a very reliable source that beer was created by a Puritan to get men off whiskey.

[PostmodernProphet]

He was actually part of the reason my dad stayed away from church for many years. My dad just couldn't understand how they could have the blackjack tables, slots and cocktails.

it's a shame that was the only church in the world....look, you are right, I don't know you.....but take it from this perspective....some guy I don't know comes up with not one, but half a dozen personal experiences with churches that are about as far removed from what I have experienced as they could possibly be.....either you hang around some really weird churches or you are stretching my imagination......

[crin63]

it's a shame that was the only church in the world....look, you are right, I don't know you.....but take it from this perspective....some guy I don't know comes up with not one, but half a dozen personal experiences with churches that are about as far removed from what I have experienced as they could possibly be.....either you hang around some really weird churches or you are stretching my imagination......

I completely understand where you're coming from. I take no offense that you question it. Maybe in time after I have been around for a while you will come to find out my character.

I only went to one of the churches which was a Nazarene church where I saw the youth pastors girlfriend there when I left the night before and still there in the morning when I went to the guys house and woke him up. I no longer go to a Nazarene Church by the way. I'm a Baptist now.

[avatar4321]

I doubt you could accurately summarize the faith of all Americans thusly.

Can Midcan summarize anything accurately?

[avatar4321]

it's a shame that was the only church in the world....look, you are right, I don't know you.....but take it from this perspective....some guy I don't know comes up with not one, but half a dozen personal experiences with churches that are about as far removed from what I have experienced as they could possibly be.....either you hang around some really weird churches or you are stretching my imagination......

I've seen alot of both. Though the ones who have the lax standards tend to be the more "liberal" congregations.

Heck, I even know of some where the preachers didnt even believe in God. It's insane.

However, I dont think this is solely among evangelicals. There are cafeteria Christians in every denomination. Im willing to bet there are people who pick and choose what to believe in every religion.

[crin63]

I've seen alot of both. Though the ones who have the lax standards tend to be the more "liberal" congregations.

Heck, I even know of some where the preachers didnt even believe in God. It's insane.

However, I dont think this is solely among evangelicals. There are cafeteria Christians in every denomination. Im willing to bet there are people who pick and choose what to believe in every religion.

Absolutely, you're right they are in every religion/denomination. Its why America is in the shape its in.

[midcan5]

it's a shame that was the only church in the world....look, you are right, I don't know you.....but take it from this perspective....some guy I don't know comes up with not one, but half a dozen personal experiences with churches that are about as far removed from what I have experienced as they could possibly be.....either you hang around some really weird churches or you are stretching my imagination......

I agree completely

Crin63,

You may have said but where is this church and what denomination. This sounds like a bunch of locals doing their own thing and hardly sounds like any church I have seen or visited.