Man Killed for Confederate Flag T-Shirt

[Hugh Lincoln]

http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070211/NEWS/702110393/1004/BUSINESS

The joint investigation eventually led to the arrest of Franklin, who is associated with the gang "FSU," Warshaw said.

The initials stand for Friends Stand United, or two profanities followed by the word "up." Members of the gang once were responsible for driving out neo-Nazi elements in the Boston hard-core punk scene of the mid-1980s. FSU is now a bizarre gang of young men who assault individuals at hard-core shows in dozens of cities across the country. Many of the bands that were slated to play Jan. 14 at the club are affiliated with FSU, or are known to attract gang members to their shows, according to sources with the New Jersey State Police Organized Crime Control Bureau.

Those who attended the show with Morrison say the brawl that led to his death was touched off by someone in the club taking offense to a Lynyrd Skynyrd shirt featuring a Confederate flag that was worn by one of Morrison's friends.

[Gunny]

http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070211/NEWS/702110393/1004/BUSINESS

The joint investigation eventually led to the arrest of Franklin, who is associated with the gang "FSU," Warshaw said.

The initials stand for Friends Stand United, or two profanities followed by the word "up." Members of the gang once were responsible for driving out neo-Nazi elements in the Boston hard-core punk scene of the mid-1980s. FSU is now a bizarre gang of young men who assault individuals at hard-core shows in dozens of cities across the country. Many of the bands that were slated to play Jan. 14 at the club are affiliated with FSU, or are known to attract gang members to their shows, according to sources with the New Jersey State Police Organized Crime Control Bureau.

Those who attended the show with Morrison say the brawl that led to his death was touched off by someone in the club taking offense to a Lynyrd Skynyrd shirt featuring a Confederate flag that was worn by one of Morrison's friends.

Sounds like stupidity compounded by more stupidity.

[trobinett]

Sounds like stupidity compounded by more stupidity.

There's generally more than enough stupidity to go around.:cheers2:

[The ClayTaurus]

To say that the man was killed for his confederate flag shirt is about as dishonest as the title could be.

[trobinett]

To say that the man was killed for his confederate flag shirt is about as dishonest as the title could be.

So, your going to bring honesty to the discussion, how?

[glockmail]

http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070211/NEWS/702110393/1004/BUSINESS

The joint investigation eventually led to the arrest of Franklin, who is associated with the gang "FSU," Warshaw said.

The initials stand for Friends Stand United, or two profanities followed by the word "up." Members of the gang once were responsible for driving out neo-Nazi elements in the Boston hard-core punk scene of the mid-1980s. FSU is now a bizarre gang of young men who assault individuals at hard-core shows in dozens of cities across the country. Many of the bands that were slated to play Jan. 14 at the club are affiliated with FSU, or are known to attract gang members to their shows, according to sources with the New Jersey State Police Organized Crime Control Bureau.

Those who attended the show with Morrison say the brawl that led to his death was touched off by someone in the club taking offense to a Lynyrd Skynyrd shirt featuring a Confederate flag that was worn by one of Morrison's friends.

Any wonder why I moved out of the tolerant, liberal North East?

On any day we have literally hundreds of thousands of guys walking around with Confederate flags on shirts and as bumper stickers on their vehicles. If these northern renecks are so frigging tough they'd come down here and tell us to put them away. :coffee:

[Yurt]

To say that the man was killed for his confederate flag shirt is about as dishonest as the title could be.

Why do you say that?



Those who attended the show with Morrison say the brawl that led to his death was touched off by someone in the club taking offense to a Lynyrd Skynyrd shirt featuring a Confederate flag that was worn by one of Morrison's friends.

[Psychoblues]

Although I live in Mississippi, have lived about as redneck a life as anyone, have fought numerous times for the ideologies of the United States Of America (as I understand them to be) I am constantly offended at the very sight of a confederate flag. The civil war in America was fought more than a hundred years ago. It was correctly won by the opposers of slavery and is to this day respected by all respectful and passionate Americans.

Wearers and otherwise proponents of the display of the defeated flag of the confederacy are just wrong and are only interested in the controversy that accompanies their symbols and otherwise ignorance. Guess what? One just as ignorant as you might take your life in your demonstration of your own ignorance. Ignorance compounds itself.

[Yurt]

Although I live in Mississippi, have lived about as redneck a life as anyone, have fought numerous times for the ideologies of the United States Of America (as I understand them to be) I am constantly offended at the very sight of a confederate flag. The civil war in America was fought more than a hundred years ago. It was correctly won by the opposers of slavery and is to this day respected by all respectful and passionate Americans.

Wearers and otherwise proponents of the display of the defeated flag of the confederacy are just wrong and are only interested in the controversy that accompanies their symbols and otherwise ignorance. Guess what? One just as ignorant as you might take your life in your demonstration of your own ignorance. Ignorance compounds itself.

The civil war was not solely about slavery and you that.

Using your argument, then slaves and their heirs should love the north or now USA because they fought for their freedom. But you know, as do they, that your view is simply not the case.

[The ClayTaurus]

Why do you say that?Ok, how about this statement then:

Rodney King was beaten by police officers because he was speeding in his car.

[Gaffer]

Ok, how about this statement then:

Rodney King was beaten by police officers because he was speeding in his car.

And refused to stop and came out of his car fighting.

[Hugh Lincoln]

Although I live in Mississippi, have lived about as redneck a life as anyone, have fought numerous times for the ideologies of the United States Of America (as I understand them to be) I am constantly offended at the very sight of a confederate flag. The civil war in America was fought more than a hundred years ago. It was correctly won by the opposers of slavery and is to this day respected by all respectful and passionate Americans.

Wearers and otherwise proponents of the display of the defeated flag of the confederacy are just wrong and are only interested in the controversy that accompanies their symbols and otherwise ignorance. Guess what? One just as ignorant as you might take your life in your demonstration of your own ignorance. Ignorance compounds itself.

So... you think anyone wearing the Confederate flag deserves the death penalty. Great. My only reaction to that is a string of curses aimed in your direction. But since you're a veteran (?) I'll just say that I disagree with you, sir.

[The ClayTaurus]

And refused to stop and came out of his car fighting.You're catching on.

[Hobbit]

Although I live in Mississippi, have lived about as redneck a life as anyone, have fought numerous times for the ideologies of the United States Of America (as I understand them to be) I am constantly offended at the very sight of a confederate flag. The civil war in America was fought more than a hundred years ago. It was correctly won by the opposers of slavery and is to this day respected by all respectful and passionate Americans.

Wearers and otherwise proponents of the display of the defeated flag of the confederacy are just wrong and are only interested in the controversy that accompanies their symbols and otherwise ignorance. Guess what? One just as ignorant as you might take your life in your demonstration of your own ignorance. Ignorance compounds itself.


So... you think anyone wearing the Confederate flag deserves the death penalty. Great. My only reaction to that is a string of curses aimed in your direction. But since you're a veteran (?) I'll just say that I disagree with you, sir.

Allow me. I have some practice at this. Psycho, that is the most shallow, self-serving, arrogant, and idiotic, not to mention canned collection of vomitted out falsehoods and half-truths I have seen you turn out since you claimed to start questioning the government at the age of 3. I'm proud of what my Southern ancestors fought for (hint: it wasn't slavery, douchebag), and no self-righteous wannabe veteran is going to tell me why I do or do not want to proudly display a Confederate flag, so cram it in your pie hole (provided it didn't get shot off during your 30 odd something tours you did in those 4...6? wars you fought in) and leave my heritage out of this.

[Psychoblues]

Not at all, H.L. I only think those displaying the defeated flag of the confederacy are ignorant, UnAmerican and generally racist and intolerant.


So... you think anyone wearing the Confederate flag deserves the death penalty. Great. My only reaction to that is a string of curses aimed in your direction. But since you're a veteran (?) I'll just say that I disagree with you, sir.

Curse all you want, you mindless little shithead and a complete misunderstander of the American Way. I fought for what "I" believe in and thank the Lord I shunned the horseshit you espouse.

"Disagree" is not the word here, sir. You are disrespectful of our Constitution and you obviously have no idea of the American meaning of "All Men Are Created Equal".

Not to reflect any chiche' I steadfasted report that some of my very best friends are black, muslim, hindu, buddist, and others are cherokee, apache and even souis. I must also report that I consider your statements and demonstrated ideologies absolutely ridiculous.

YOU ain't shit, HL. And I don't give a damn what you might think about me.

[5stringJeff]

Not at all, H.L. I only think those displaying the defeated flag of the confederacy are ignorant, UnAmerican and generally racist and intolerant.



Curse all you want, you mindless little shithead and a complete misunderstander of the American Way. I fought for what "I" believe in and thank the Lord I shunned the horseshit you espouse.

"Disagree" is not the word here, sir. You are disrespectful of our Constitution and you obviously have no idea of the American meaning of "All Men Are Created Equal".

Not to reflect any chiche' I steadfasted report that some of my very best friends are black, muslim, hindu, buddist, and others are cherokee, apache and even souis. I must also report that I consider your statements and demonstrated ideologies absolutely ridiculous.

YOU ain't shit, HL. And I don't give a damn what you might think about me.

Newsflash: not all those who wear/fly the Confederate flag display it as a symbol of racism; in fact, very few do. Most display it as a statement of pride in being a Southerner.

[Hobbit]

You are disrespectful of our Constitution and you obviously have no idea of the American meaning of "All Men Are Created Equal".

All men being created equal was in the Declaration of Independance, not the Constitution. The Constitution is the one that says that the right to free speech shall not be infringed.

And I'm not even going to get into the fact that General Grant, along with much of the population of 4 Union states (Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri) owned slaves until the ratification of the 13th ammendment, because freeing the slaves was a way to break the South, not the point of the war.

[glockmail]

All men being created equal was in the Declaration of Independance, not the Constitution. The Constitution is the one that says that the right to free speech shall not be infringed.

And I'm not even going to get into the fact that General Grant, along with much of the population of 4 Union states (Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri) owned slaves until the ratification of the 13th ammendment, because freeing the slaves was a way to break the South, not the point of the war.

The Civil War was about free market economics. That's why the Radical Repubilcans fought the slave-owning Democrats.

It seems that the situation has not chanced all the much. :laugh2:

[Psychoblues]

Admittedly, slavery was not the only reason for the American Civil War but it was at least an over riding one from any other as we continue to grapple in this country with issues of equality, liberty, race and rights.



All men being created equal was in the Declaration of Independance, not the Constitution. The Constitution is the one that says that the right to free speech shall not be infringed.

And I'm not even going to get into the fact that General Grant, along with much of the population of 4 Union states (Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri) owned slaves until the ratification of the 13th ammendment, because freeing the slaves was a way to break the South, not the point of the war.

I hear the old "heritage" bullshit all the time from idiots that continue to support and display the defeated flag of the confederacy and I also hear them in more private instances as well as quite public ones (depending on how safe they feel at the time) demonstrating their racism, bigotry, failures to understand the true American way of life and other general ignorance.

I don't buy into the "heritage" argument at all. I am also quite proud of my Southern Heritage as well but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the continued display of a flag that was defeated 142 years ago and to this day represents those that still resent the defeat and would gladly re-enslave anybody they could if it meant that it would somehow benefit themselves. Well, actually not that complicated. Some of the displayers of that defeated flag are simply followers and have little or no understanding of what they are really doing.

[CockySOB]

Admittedly, slavery was not the only reason for the American Civil War but it was at least an over riding one from any other as we continue to grapple in this country with issues of equality, liberty, race and rights.

Actually Pres. Lincoln himself said that if he could have won the war without freeing the slaves he would have. The only way that slavery played a role in the intent of the Civil War was that the northern states generally opposed expanding slavery to new territories, whereas the southern states generally had no problem with taking slavery to the new territories.

[Psychoblues]

So it was about power? Power to do what and to whom?




Actually Pres. Lincoln himself said that if he could have won the war without freeing the slaves he would have. The only way that slavery played a role in the intent of the Civil War was that the northern states generally opposed expanding slavery to new territories, whereas the southern states generally had no problem with taking slavery to the new territories.

I guess the Emancipation Proclamation doesn't mean a thing to you?

[Hobbit]

So it was about power? Power to do what and to whom?





I guess the Emancipation Proclamation doesn't mean a thing to you?

The Emancipation Proclamation was a political move designed to keep the UK and France out of the war. It freed no slaves, even in the four slave states still in the jurisdiction of the Union. In fact, General Grant owned slaves until the 13th ammendment was passed in 1865, after the war was quite over.

[5stringJeff]

So it was about power? Power to do what and to whom?

I guess the Emancipation Proclamation doesn't mean a thing to you?

It was about the power to collect tariffs and drain money from the South.

And, as Hobbit said, the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the CSA, where the Union government had no authority to enforce it. If it had really been about slavery, Lincoln would have freed the slaves in the Union states (Missouri, Kentucky, Delaware, Maryland, plus DC) that allowed it. But he didn't - because it wasn't about slavery.

[Psychoblues]

I have been taught since grade school, a very Southern grade school where all the teachers and all the students were white or some accepted minority such as Asian or light skinned Hispanic, that Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves.



It was about the power to collect tariffs and drain money from the South.

And, as Hobbit said, the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the CSA, where the Union government had no authority to enforce it. If it had really been about slavery, Lincoln would have freed the slaves in the Union states (Missouri, Kentucky, Delaware, Maryland, plus DC) that allowed it. But he didn't - because it wasn't about slavery.

One of you is wrong and I suspect at least on this issue the history books are more inclined to be correct. Otherwise the Republicans that continue to invoke the name of Abraham Lincoln should just shut up about slavery and minority suppression as they pander to the minority voters.

Think so?

[Hobbit]

I have been taught since grade school, a very Southern grade school where all the teachers and all the students were white or some accepted minority such as Asian or light skinned Hispanic, that Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves.




One of you is wrong and I suspect at least on this issue the history books are more inclined to be correct. Otherwise the Republicans that continue to invoke the name of Abraham Lincoln should just shut up about slavery and minority suppression as they pander to the minority voters.

Think so?

Yeah, Abraham Lincoln freeing the slaves makes a really nice myth to put in history books, but until the 13th ammendment was passed, the South freed far more slaves than the North. Did you know the South had the first mixed race units, with the black portion being mostly former slaves who earned their emancipation through military service?

As far as pandering to minorities, nobody is as guilty of this as the Democrats, the ones who opposed the Civil Rights Movement.

[5stringJeff]

I have been taught since grade school, a very Southern grade school where all the teachers and all the students were white or some accepted minority such as Asian or light skinned Hispanic, that Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves.

One of you is wrong and I suspect at least on this issue the history books are more inclined to be correct. Otherwise the Republicans that continue to invoke the name of Abraham Lincoln should just shut up about slavery and minority suppression as they pander to the minority voters.

Think so?

Abe Lincoln didn't free the slaves; the 13th Amendment did. Trust me, I'm a history major.

[CockySOB]

So it was about power? Power to do what and to whom?

I guess the Emancipation Proclamation doesn't mean a thing to you?

I guess you didn't pay attention during history class.

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/alhtml/almintr.html

That'd be the Library of Congress documentation regarding the Emancipation Proclamation, the Preliminary Proclamation which was Lincoln's first draft of the document, and the Second Confiscation Act by Congress which preceded the Emancipation Proclamation.

BTW, the Abolitionist movement was already well underway in America prior to the Civil War, and as a nation, we had outlawed the international transport of slaves to the USA well prior to the Civil War as well. So yes, there was already a movement underway which would have led to the abolition of slavery, but the Emancipation Proclamation was primarily crafted as a tool of war to weaken the South.

Yours is a common misconception though, despite the fact I gave you grief over it at the start of the post. Sadly, too many people grab the sound bites and fail to recognize the feast of information which they have available to them.

[Hugh Lincoln]

You are disrespectful of our Constitution and you obviously have no idea of the American meaning of "All Men Are Created Equal".

As noted, "all men are created equal" appears nowhere in the Constitution. And how this can be cited in support of killing a man over a Confederate flag is way, way beyond me.


some of my very best friends are black, muslim, hindu, buddist, and others are cherokee, apache and even souis.

You're embarrassing yourself with this one. "I have black friends" is not an argument. Please do better next time.

[Gunny]

Actually Pres. Lincoln himself said that if he could have won the war without freeing the slaves he would have. The only way that slavery played a role in the intent of the Civil War was that the northern states generally opposed expanding slavery to new territories, whereas the southern states generally had no problem with taking slavery to the new territories.

Let's get to teh heart of the matter. Why would Northern states want to limit th enumber of slaveholding states?

Numbers in Congress. Control the government, and legislation favorable to Northern industry, not Southern agriculture.

[Gunny]

So it was about power? Power to do what and to whom?





I guess the Emancipation Proclamation doesn't mean a thing to you?

The Emancipation Proclamation freed only slaves in states in insurrection. It was a tactical ploy in hopes of creating unrest in the South, drawing Southern troops from the battlefield to help guard the home front.

[Gunny]

I have been taught since grade school, a very Southern grade school where all the teachers and all the students were white or some accepted minority such as Asian or light skinned Hispanic, that Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves.




One of you is wrong and I suspect at least on this issue the history books are more inclined to be correct. Otherwise the Republicans that continue to invoke the name of Abraham Lincoln should just shut up about slavery and minority suppression as they pander to the minority voters.

Think so?

All slavery was abolished by the 13th Amendment. After Lincoln's death.

[Hobbit]

Psycho, if you had an Sioux friends, you'd probably know how to spell it. You might also know that Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Cherokee, and Sioux are all supposed to be capitalized. Just saying...

I'd also like to know where the hell you live that there's that many ethnic groups. You almost never see Cherokee and Sioux in the same area, except in a few areas in Oklahoma. It's also pretty uncommon to see Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist communities in close proximity, especially in Oklahoma.

[CockySOB]

Not to reflect any chiche' I steadfasted report that some of my very best friends are black, muslim, hindu, buddist, and others are cherokee, apache and even souis.

I tend to know the heritage of my friends and co-workers before spouting off. BTW, the bolded word should be Sioux. Also, you mixed ethnic and religious groupings in your statement without any real order. Strange method of fabricating a sentence IMO. Most grade schoolers learn to organize their thoughts when forming sentences, rather than to simply create a hodge-podge of words and hope the reader can discern a relationship. But I guess that's not really important now is it? (That's an example of a rhetorical question - you are not expected to answer.)

[CockySOB]

Psycho, if you had an Sioux friends, you'd probably know how to spell it. You might also know that Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Cherokee, and Sioux are all supposed to be capitalized. Just saying...

Beat me to it. Although all I focused on was the Sioux misspelling.


I'd also like to know where the hell you live that there's that many ethnic groups. You almost never see Cherokee and Sioux in the same area, except in a few areas in Oklahoma. It's also pretty uncommon to see Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist communities in close proximity, especially in Oklahoma.

I don't figure this is a big question unless Psycho doesn't travel much. I've got friends all over the world and from just as varied ethnic/religious backgrounds. So that's really not a good assumption to make IMO.

[Hobbit]

I don't figure this is a big question unless Psycho doesn't travel much. I've got friends all over the world and from just as varied ethnic/religious backgrounds. So that's really not a good assumption to make IMO.

Eh, possibly, but the way he throws it together, it seemed worth bringing up. In retrospect, I guess you could run into such a diverse group at college.

[glockmail]

I tend to know the heritage of my friends and co-workers before spouting off. BTW, the bolded word should be Sioux. Also, you mixed ethnic and religious groupings in your statement without any real order. Strange method of fabricating a sentence IMO. Most grade schoolers learn to organize their thoughts when forming sentences, rather than to simply create a hodge-podge of words and hope the reader can discern a relationship. But I guess that's not really important now is it? (That's an example of a rhetorical question - you are not expected to answer.) This assumes you are dealing with a logically human being. Libs act on emotion, not logic.

[Hugh Lincoln]

Libs act on emotion, not logic.

But logic is fascist, haven't you heard?

[glockmail]

But logic is fascist, haven't you heard? It's all starting to make sense to me now. Not. :laugh2: